The Session: Tunes - The Bay Tree (waltz)

The Bay Tree

This waltz is one of Andy Cutting's very well-known compositions, and has been recorded by The Poozies and Eaton & Cutting (maybe others also). And I *have* heard it played at sessions before!!

# Posted on November 10th 2007 by mehitabel23

A 6/8 waltz!! There have been so many of these on the session.
M: 3/4
L: 1/4
That's how it should be I think. And then the bar lines have got to be in the right place.

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by hetty

You tell 'em hetty... ;-)

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by ceolachan

"The Bay Tree" ~ by Andy Cutting

This isn't a tune I know or am familiar with, but I have a standing appreciation of Steven Mansfield and he has transcribed it, so here is his and another take in C that is floating about on the Internet, to compare ~

X: 1
T: Bay Tree
C: Andy Cutting
Z: Steve Mansfield
M: 3/4
L: 1/8
R: waltz
K: G Major
|: B4 AB | d4 BA | G2 FG Ac | B2 A2 GA |
B4 AB | d4 BA | G2 FG AB |[1 A3 :|[2 A4 GA ||
|: B2 GD GB | c2 AF Ac | d2 BG Bd | e4 dc |
B2 GB dB | c2 Ac ec | d2 BG Bd |[1 e4 dc :|[2 e6 |]

X: 2
T: Bay Tree
C: Andy Cutting
Z: Steve Mansfield
N: modified, and chords added, by Moshe Braner, after workshop with Andy Cutting
M: 3/4
L: 1/8
R: waltz
K: G Major
|: "G" B3 B AB | "D/B" d3 d BA | "C" G2 FG AB | "D" B2 A2 GA |
"G" B3 B AB | "D/B" d3 d BA | "C" G2 FG AB |[1 "D" D6 :|[2 "D" A4 GA ||
|: "G" B2 GD GB | "C/A" c2 EG ce | "D/B" d2 ^FA dg | "C" e3 e "D" dc |
"G" B2 GD GB | "C/A" c2 EG ce | "D/B" d2 ^FA dg | "C" e3 g "D" dc :|

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by ceolachan

& using those as a guideline to make sense of your transcription:

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by ceolachan

Except the final bar ~ | e2 dd- dc :| ~ back to your 1st & 2nd endings:

X: 2
T: Bay Tree, The
C: Andy Cutting
M: 3/4
L: 1/8
R: waltz
K: G Major
GA |:
B3 B AB | d3 d BA | AG FG Ad | BA AA GA |
B3 B AB | d3 d BA | AG FG AB |[1 D3 D GA :| [2 D4 D2 ||
|: B2 GD GB | c2 EG ce | d2 FA dg | e3 d- dc |
B2 GD GB | c2 EG ce | d2 FA dg |[1 e2 dd- dc :|[2 e2 d2 |]

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by ceolachan

The version

The version that I've written out is how it is in the Blowzabella tune book, directly written by Mr Cutting himself, so this time you can't go telling me that my ABC's wrong...:P

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by mehitabel23

The version

Well said mehitabel! Teaches people to flood the comments section with other abcs

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by D.J.F.

Just because someone writes a good tune doesn't mean they know how to annotate it. If it is written as a waltz and intended to be played that way then it should be in 3/4. Notating in 3/4 means that you group notes (if L:1/8) together in pairs (AG FG Ad) rather than in threes (AGF GAd).
Anyway we should all be learning by earin any case.

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by Donough

Donough

Just checked your myspace...lovely playing...i'll show it to my dad...he plays guitar albeit not much folk stuff!

The composer may have wanted it written that way...chances are a composer of a good tune KNOWS how to annotate their piece.

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by D.J.F.

It is in 3/4, it's always played that way and danced that way, often players just put the fourth quaver of the bar as a grace note! If you count it in 6/8 then the emphasis always goes on number 2 of the second three quavers, which sounds stupid, IMHO. The way it is written by Andy Cutting is the way it's been learned by everyone who's ever played it. I'm sure Cutting is perfectly able to notate his own tune exactly as he likes, and we should maybe respect that...Is it totally necessary to post all of these slight variations? And why the version in C? It has never, ever been played in C.
[/rant]

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by mehitabel23

Learn by ear

Learn by ear by all means. I do it all the time but when I decide to give my tune to someone else using a particular format then there is no excuse to not do it right. Donough you are right and mehitabel you have got to show what you intend. There are times when you need to tie notes. For example in bar 1 where you write; B3 BAB, as a jig you should try; | B2-BB AB | or in bar 3 where you have AGF GAd (jig format) you should have | AG FG Ad | as Donough has already said. In bar 1 of the 'B' music you should have written B GD GB . The spacing between the groups of notes in abc is important. It is after all a language. By the way this is not aimed at just you because there are many who contribute to the session who need to watch thier ABC's as well as their p's & q's.
You would not count a waltz in 6/8 but as "1and 2 and 3 and" retaining the emphasis on 3 main beats in the bar but allowing
you to count the half beat.

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by hetty

Last bar of the 'B' music

The last bar of the 'B' music should be | e dd-dc |

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by hetty

"Encyclopaedia Blowzabellica: The Blowzabella Tune and Dance Book"

Music transcribed by Dave Shepherd
Dragonfly Music, 1987

This is the one I know of and have as "The Blowzabella Tune Book", and it isn't in it...unless I'm blindsided and keep missing it in a page turn and scan of the index...

The ABCs as given previously, as I'd said and shown, those are not my notations but what I could find online that made more sense than the way it is given here, given in the hopes they might help. I suspect the one in C was probably a player with a single row C melodeon, not uncommon, especially way back when.

There isn't and shouldn't be tyranny with regards to what key a tune is played in, and I can't imagine Andy Cutting getting shirty over his melody being played in another key than G, say Eb, taking in a third lower... Besides, whatever you've created, once you've released on the water, well, it will go where it chooses, and how others adopt it and make it their own. If it is wanted to be fixed in concrete, well, for starters, that isn't 'tradition'... Sometimes after being knocked about over time a thing can come back better than where it started, but it can go the other way too...

I think there was another book in circulation that was compositions by the members, dance tunes, over 100? I'm not sure and I haven't that at hand... Shepherd's notation of waltzes is atypical, as he had a tendency to merge beats 2 & 3 in his transcriptions ~ | e2 egfe | ~ ...

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by ceolachan

Hetty - yes, I did realise afterwards that I should have tied those beats...sorry about that, my theory teachers would be thoroughly ashamed of me

Ceolachan - I have the Blowzabella "Tunes for Dancing" book in front of me, and it's in here. Sorry if I sounded a bit p*ssy earlier, I was just a bit annoyed at coming back to my tune to find it flooded with alternatives, implying that my version was not right. I see now that it's all in good faith.

Thanks guys for the pointers!

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by mehitabel23

You "p*ssy", I never imagined that... So you have moods do you?

I love seeing alternative takes on a tune, all part of the magic of 'tradition' that I savour and that makes me smile...

That's the tunebook I'd heard of but haven't got, sadly... The lads did the best they could, but don't profess to be professional transcribers, either in practice or in results... A good melody has the ability to often expose itself through whatever notational diddling might impede it's bounce and flow, and I've seen some mighty peculiar attempts, dots and ABCs...

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by ceolachan

For whatever the reason, having a dotted note for the start of a bar in 3/4 doesn't seem to be a problem, is acceptable, meaning ~

|: B3 B AB | ~ the lengthening of the first beat of a measure with a dot...

But the same allowance doesn't hold for those beats that follow, in this case numbers 2 & 3 of a 3/4 tune ~

~ | e2 dd- dc :|

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by ceolachan

Me? Moods? Never, I am like the buddha, sitting in silence and smiling, not thinking, not wanting, not waiting, just existing.

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by mehitabel23

But, amongst best practice is to keep the identity of the 3 beats of 3/4, as hetty illustrated...

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by ceolachan

Hey mehitabel, you don't need Buddhism, I do, you've got needlework... ;-)

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by ceolachan

So cruel, ceolachan, needlework is much more stressful and bloodthirsty than you could possibly imagine...I nearly got tetanus from needlework. And that's not even a lie.

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by mehitabel23

Crossing beats ~

Clarity, if I can manage that, it is about crossing the beat. If it is an extension of a primary beat you could choose to dot the note, so ~ just fooling around with notes ~ these are all possibilities, examples:

|: B3 B AB | ~ |: BA B3 A | ~

But starting from the middle or second half of one of those beats, no ~ in other words:

|: BA- AB AB | ~ not ~ |: B A2 B AB | ~

~ | e2 dd- dc :| ~ not ~ ~ | e2 d d2 c :|

I hope that makes a little sense? OOOOHHHMMMMM!!!

Sorry, i meant to say oooohhhmmmmm...

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by ceolachan

Needling ~

Maybe it's just the cross-stitch that I do which is relaxing... I guess someone forgot to teach me the stressful parts of it. Also, crochet is cool as is patchwork, but it might depend on the materials you work with? Or maybe it's whether or not you were taught tension with the needling? I'm too damned tense with the knitting needles, haven't managed that yet... Now I'm missing it. I haven't crocheted or done patchwork in ages now...

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by ceolachan

Maybe you need an eye checkup? :-P

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by ceolachan

Don't worry, I know exactly what you mean and I know what I should have done. I know my theory, i just tend to keep it for the exam room, and make sure that it doesn't inhibit my creativity and free spirit ;)

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by mehitabel23

TETANUS!? ~ You're kidding? Switch to bamboo!!!

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by ceolachan

cross-post..

All these kinds of needlwork you speak of...very therepeutic, very "occupational therapy". No, my kind of needlework involves big, noisy sewing machines, huge lengths of fabric, and most often a time limit.

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by mehitabel23

Well the tetanus was a one-off...sewing hundreds of flags in the middle of the desert, with needles, I realise in retrospect, that I probably should have not been using. I was very lucky...that would have been a bad way to die...

# Posted on November 11th 2007 by mehitabel23

Horrible! But where do you find a 'dessert' on this island? And flags for what, prairie schooners? semifore? :-/

# Posted on November 12th 2007 by ceolachan

You don't find many deserts on this island...but there are other islands...
And flags because...some places a flag is enough to make someone's day, especially if they are colourful, and symmetrically arranged...
However, for me, flags bring up images of "death by tetanus".

# Posted on November 12th 2007 by mehitabel23

In general when writing or transcribing tunes, the beaming or grouping of the notes should reflect the time signature. When there is a bar that wants to be grouped differently, it should stand out as being different so that the player can make the most the tune going across the beat. If the majority of the tune is across the beat of the time signature, it is probably the time signature that needs changing. For example, I met someone the other day who played me one of her tunes that she'd written as a slip jig- very nice it was too- but virtually every single bar was tied across in such a way that the tune worked much better in 18/8 than 9/8, that is three groups of 6- a sort of slip-slide (what a great name for a tune type!).

# Posted on April 7th 2008 by martin clarke