The Session: Tunes - Lovely Nancy (three-two)

"Lovely Nancy" ~ more often notated in 3/4 and even called a 'waltz'

It ain't a WALTZ!!! Sorry, if you want to play it as a waltz do as you will. I play this more like a march, and sometimes quite slowly, so 3/4 just didn't seem to answer my way with this lovely air / march.

Now, I promise, the history bits will follow, but first more recent history. Some of you will know we, the two sharing this flat and life, recently lost several people close to us to smoking related illness, and NO, there was no doubt in every case that their cause of death was due to their addiction. One of these dear people was named Nancy, and the seed for thoughts that grew into dancing to tunes I didn't recognize and have since added here ~ "Waltzin' Nancy" / "Dancin' Nancy" ~ or 'antsy', as something she'd actually smile about.

Anyway, I was thinking of Nancy again, what with the coming ban on smoking in public places here in England, and I had this niggle of a memory and went searching for this lovely old air. It came to mind and into music quickly and easily, but I really can't remember wher I originally picked it up. I checked for notes, but on this one I'd been sloppy and there weren't any, not that would be of much use. I think I remember this also being in several mouldy old tomes, as an 'air' in 3/4, and I've dug out some of those too. I'll add them later, and I'll add other transcriptions for it, and in 3/4. However, and maybe with dear Nancy in mind, but I never played this 'fast', I play this very relaxed and in a meditative fashion ~ in a way that reminds me of things like "Da Auld Rocking Chair" and Tom Anderson's way with such airs, and 'ringing strings' would suit this air / march beautifully.

Q: 70 - 100 bpm ~ in my estimation... Others suggest 90 - 100 bpm

# Posted on June 30th 2007 by ceolachan

"Lovely Nancy" ~ 3/4 if that's better for you (also played in D & F)

X: ~
T: Lovely Nancy
M: 3/4
L: 1/8
R: air / march
K: G Major
B>A |
G2 G2 G>B | A2 A2 Ac | BG gd cB | B2 A2 B>A |
G2 G2 G>B | A2 A2 A>c | Bg ec AF | G2 G2 B>A |
G2 GD GB | A2 AD Ac | B2 gd cB | B2 AD c/B/A/F/ |
G2 G2 G/D/G/B/ | AB/A/ A2 c/B/A | Bg ec AF | G2 G2 ||
B>c |
d2 d2 ge | d4 B>c | d2 d2 gB | A3 c c/B/A |
G2 G2 GB | A2 A2 A/B/c/A/ | Bg e>c AF | G4 B>c |
d2 d2 ge | e2 d2 B>c | d2 d2 gB | B2 AD c/B/A/F/ |
GD GB AG | AD Ac BA | B2 g>c A/G/F | G4 |]

# Posted on June 30th 2007 by ceolachan

"Lovely Nancy" = AABB (Another possibly key? ~ E ~ Chappell ~ )

I've written out the repeats in full so I could offer you just some of the many variations this tune welcomes... Here is a straight version in G & 3/4 ~

The penultimate measure in both parts, bar 7, has other possibilities given by different sources:

~ | Bg dB cA | ~ or ~ | de dB AB | ~

# Posted on June 30th 2007 by ceolachan

“Chappell’s Popular Music of the Olden Time”, 1859 ~ Volumes 1 & 2

http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/popular-music-olden-times-1/index.html
http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/popular-music-olden-times-2/index.html

"Lovely Nancy"~ dots ~ page 715

Reign of Queen Anne to George II.

LOVELY NANCY. This is one of the airs contained in the folio edition of 'The Jovial Crew' (which has the basses to the airs), but not in octavo. It was added after the first performance. The following words were sung by the female beggars, in the opera: 'Rather slowly, and with expression'.

Can nothing, Sir, move you, Our sorrows to mend,
Have you nothing to give, Sir, Have you nothing to lend?
My heart does so heave, I'm afraid it will break,
Of victuals we've scarce had A morsel this week.

You see the ad fate We poor maidens endure,
Cannot charity move you To grant us a cure?
How hard is your heart, How unkind is your eye,
If nothing can move you, Good Sir, do comply.

"Lovely Nancy"~ Notes ~ page 787 & 788

p. 715. LOVELY NANCY. --- I observe that in Book 2 of Oswald's 'Caledonian Pocket Companion', this tune is printed as "Lovely Nancy, by Mr. Oswald." I have no doubt that he meant to claim the variations only, for he had previously printed the air, with some differences in arrangement, in his 'Curious Scots' Tunes for a violin and flute', and then without making any such claim. Oswald has been taken to task by Mr. Gr. F. Graham, in the notes on Wood's 'Songs of Scotland', for having similarly placed his name before Scotch tunes of which it, is impossible that he can have been the author.

I have seen many half-sheet copies of the song of 'Lovely Nancy', but never with an author's name, and I doubt whether any one could properly claim it, for it seems to be only an alteration of 'Ye Virgins so Pretty' (ante p. 682).

'Lovely Nancy' was turned into a Country Dance in vol. iii. of Johnson's Collection, 1744, and the song is included in Walsh's 'Select Aires for the Guitar'. There are five stanzas, of which the following are the first three : ---

"How can you, lovely Nancy, thus cruelly alight A
swain who is wretched when banish'd your sight?
Who for your sake alone thinks life worth his care,
But which soon, if you frown on, must end in despair.

If you meant thus to torture, O why did your eyes Once
express so much fondness, and sweetly surprise? By their
lustre inflam'd, I could never believe, As they shed such mild
influence, they e'er would deceive.

But, alas! like the pilgrim bewilder'd in night, Who
perceives a false splendour at distance invite,
O'erjoyed hastens on, pursues it, and dies, A like
ruin attends me if away Nancy flies,"

& the Chappell's notation simplified ~

# Posted on June 30th 2007 by ceolachan

"Lovely Nancy" ~ fragments of memory

I know this was associated with 'dance' and what comes to mind is a 'grand march' or polonaise, but I can't be sure...

# Posted on July 1st 2007 by ceolachan

"Lovely Nancy" ~ various scraps collected together with minor editing

The following have been gleaned from the Internet, but there were inconsistancies, missing bars, the wrong key ~ and various other disagreements. Here are a few offered up for comparison...

F & D MAJOR ~

X: 1134
T: How Can You Lovely Nancy?
T: Lovely Nancy
S: Benjamin Cooke MS., circa 1770, F.Kidson Coll.
M: 3/4
L: 1/8
Q: 100
R: air
K: D Major
|: f>e |
d2 d2 d>f | e2 e2 e>g | f2 d'a gf | e4 f>e |
d2 d2 d>f | e2 e2 d'b | ab af ef | d4 :|
|: f>g |
a2 a2 d'b | a4 f>g | a2 a2 d'a | e4 f>e |
d2 d2 af | e2e2 g>{a}b | abafef | d4 :|

# Posted on July 1st 2007 by ceolachan

"Lovely Nancy" ~ more scraps in G

In the first instance I've given two slightly different transcriptions, both which claim to be from or based on the William Clarke manuscript, later there is a transcript listed as from the Winder manuscript, but there were several found and they did not agree on all points, so I have added only one taking a best guess between the options that were given, and in some cases obvious mistakes avoided...

# Posted on July 1st 2007 by ceolachan

Shocked and stunned in Sydney Australia

3/4 air maybe, if you wanted to avoid "waltz", but definitely not a 3/2. By no stretch of the imagination does it belong in that category. And march?! What, you have 3 legs?!

I wouldn't be surprised after this posting!

;-)

PS the Sandra Kerr version above is not the tune. It's a harmony Sandra came across somewhere. She wasn't sure which one was supposed to be the tune and which was the harmony, so she and her daughter Nancy recorded a lovely arrangement for fiddle and concertina which featured the harmony more prominently.

Lovely tune; shame about the transcription :-/

# Posted on July 1st 2007 by Dow

3/4 Marches

There are lots of 3/4 marches in existence already. Tunes like "Farewell to Nigg" and "Lochanside" are 3/4 pipe marches ("Retreat Marches"). "Wee Michael's March" by John McCusker is also in 3/4.

So you can march to tunes in 3/4. I have never seen a 3/2 march but that doesn't mean they can't exist, I suppose.

# Posted on July 1st 2007 by No Cause For Alarm

Ditto to what alarum has offered, obviously you are unfamiliar with 3/4 (3/2) time marches, in case you can't add up 8 measures, or 4, or 16, or 32, or whatever, usually multiples of 2, add up to just that ~ two measures = 123, 123, or 121212...

In case it wasn't clear, as written, and as shown over and over and over again in the comments (in 3/4 time), I gave my reasons for giving this in 3/2, aside from the damned midi taking it at around 150 beats a minute. Also, as I said, this is how I take it and how I used to play it, slower than 150 bpm and NOT AS A WALTZ, NOT AS AN AIR EITHER, but I thought I'd made that pretty clear ~ take it or leave it, I've given you plenty of options in the comments...

# Posted on July 1st 2007 by ceolachan

3/2

ALSO ~ not shown here, the tendency for lots of variations on the line of, V = 1/8 ~

~ | VVVV VVVV VVVV | ~ or if you insist on 3/4 ~ | V/V/V/V/ V/V/V/V/ V/V/V/V/ | ~

# Posted on July 1st 2007 by ceolachan

LRL, RLR ~ or ~ RLR, LRL ~ one foot in front of the other and a perfect 'march' for the 'grand march' or polonaise, at walking pace...

# Posted on July 1st 2007 by ceolachan

P.S. If you'd bothered to play the Sandra Kerr transcription you'd know it isn't a harmony but the melody in F, and if it were intended as a harmony for the tune in G, it would be cack...

# Posted on July 1st 2007 by ceolachan

Oo, you're easily wound up today :-) Mea culpa on the 3/4 march thing. I've never heard one before.

Still think it's not a three-two. A three-two is a specfic dance, not a time sig.

On 2nd glance at the Sandra Kerr transcription, it is indeed the tune. However, whilst it may be how she plays it now, that's not how she recorded it. If you keep the transcription as is, but change the key sig to Dmaj, that's how she recorded it, starting on F#. If I find the recording today, I'll transcribe it.

# Posted on July 1st 2007 by Dow

"A three-two is a specfic dance, not a time sig." ~ alright, I'm always ready to learn, how do you dance it? Show me a few steps and figures... :-D

# Posted on July 2nd 2007 by ceolachan

F# Phrygian? ~ Styx! ~ round and round and round it goes ~

On the Nancy Kerr way with it, and I look forward to your transcription, but since the above example ends on F, and you're saying it is two sharps (##) as D Major, well, since it resolves on F, or in this case F#, not D as in D Major, wouldn't that make it F# Phrygian?

# Posted on July 2nd 2007 by ceolachan

There aren't really enough C#s in the 1st part to make it sound phrygian. It's more Dmaj. But there are plenty in the 2nd part, and on the recording, they give it the phrygian treatment the 1st and 3rd times thru, with some nice F#m chords from Sandra.

"If you'd bothered to play the Sandra Kerr transcription"...

I misread the key sig, and apologise for that. Now, have *you* bothered to give Sandra Kerr's playing of the tune a listen? :-/

So here's my transcription:

X: 1
T: Lovely Nancy
S: Sandra & Nancy Kerr
D: Neat And Complete; Fellside recordings
N: (From the liner notes) "[Lovely Nancy] is a bit of an oddity - it's generally thought that what we play as the tune was mistakenly notated and is actually a harmony. Which could mean that either of the harmonies we play are tunes. Or not. The title is strange, too."
M: 3/4
L: 1/8
R: air
K: Dmaj
"Nancy's version"
F2 FE FA|G2 GF GB|A2 fd cA|G3A AG|
F2 FE FA|G2 G2 B/c/d|cd cA GA|1 F3A AG:|2 F4 AB||
|:Bc c2 fd|c2 ~c2 AB|Bc2f fA|G3A AG|
F2 FE FA|G2 G2 B/c/d|cd cA GA|1 F4 AB:|2 F3A AG||
"Sandra's version"
FE F2 F/G/A|G2 G3B|Af fd cA|G3A AG|
FE F2 F/G/A|G2 G2 B/c/d|cd cA GA|1 FE FG AG:|2 F4 AB||
|:c2 cf fd|c4 AB|c2 c2 fA|G3A AG|
FE F2 F/G/A|G2 G2 B/c/d|cd cA GA|1 F4 AB:|2 FE FG AG||

So it looks like their notated version simply had the wrong key signature.

"Alright, I'm always ready to learn, how do you dance it? Show me a few steps and figures..."

You said that knowing that I'm not a dancer and that I wouldn't be able to answer you on that one. You know you have nothing to learn from me. After all, I'm just an elitist snob, right? :-/

I do play the tunes though, and I know what a three-two should sound like, and it doesn't sound anything like this. The note groupings and pulse have totally the wrong feel. This one belongs in with all the 3/4s - the waltzes and the mazurkas and that class of tune, if anything.

# Posted on July 2nd 2007 by Dow

About the F# phrygian thing - yes you could think of the whole tune as that. I should have made it clear that I transcribed it like that and think of it as Dmaj because the Kerrs treat it as definite Dmaj in the 1st part.

# Posted on July 2nd 2007 by Dow

"If you'd bothered to play the Sandra Kerr transcription"...

I just found the original transcription on the net, which is in 2 sharps. The Fmaj key sig was *your* edit, 'c', so I could be forgiven for misreading it, no? Having Sandra's playing in my head as I read that transcription? >: -(

# Posted on July 2nd 2007 by Dow

Yuck! ~ b minor... I suppose they thought that was 'cute'? How 60's... :-D

# Posted on July 2nd 2007 by ceolachan

Your right though, I thought someone had made a mistake, especially as it was giving me a gut ache just remembering those flowery times... I also hadn't found a recording to listen to for confirmation one way or the t'other. b minor, I mean, really, pull the other leg ~ no, leave my legs alone, the upset stomach was enough... :-P

# Posted on July 2nd 2007 by ceolachan

b minor my ass!!! ~ Sorry, I've just spent 2 & 1/2 hours in traffic

As said before, if you take it that daft way with F#s & C#s and resolve it as has been done, on F, F and not B ~ then by all the holy mis-aligned angels looking after Irish inclinded musicians everywhere ~ IT AIN'T B MINOR!!! Jeez, what poison have you been feeding your brain lately?

Now to poison myself with a few double shots of espresso.

Some chemical company is on fire an canisters are blowing 700 feet into the air and so they've closed a large stretch of the M6. You try holding back your call to nature for two and a half hours, actually almost 3, as I started off this morning at 7:30...

# Posted on July 2nd 2007 by ceolachan

F# Phrygian? ~ Styx! ~ has the poor river gone stagnant ?~

If she really did abuse this lovely tune and teach it as F# Phrygian, which is a far worse crime than me choosing to transcribe it in 3/2, then lord have pity on the families, friends and sessions exposed to such an aural abuse by the poor demented minions exposed to it at 'Swaledale Squeeze 2006'. I cringe just imagining that spreading across the country, oh the torture... It's akin to the opening of a hell's gate and the release of demons, like ear mites, oh the sorrow and the woe, all those abused ears... ;-)

# Posted on July 2nd 2007 by ceolachan

Yup, it's not B minor. Never said it was. Maybe you should e-mail Robin Beech and complain. The transcription is nothing to do with me.

# Posted on July 2nd 2007 by Dow

No, but you're the one that has been waving it under my nose like a well packed baby's daiper... :-D

# Posted on July 2nd 2007 by ceolachan

The fumes must be getting to you...

# Posted on July 2nd 2007 by ceolachan

I quite like Sandra's version of it. It's more interesting than the "proper" tune, which is frankly rather bland. I can't be that much of an elitist. If I were an elitist, I would turn my nose up at anything different from the accepted norms.

# Posted on July 2nd 2007 by Dow

You need your beauty sleep... Who ever would call you an 'elitist'? 'Bourgeois' yes, but 'elitist'? Am I surprised that something outside of the norm of say Major, minor, Dorian, would take your fancy. Hell, Phrygian to you is like the nappy, attracting flies to ~ ... No, I have too much respect for you to say that, but, however awful a melody might be, if it were in Phrygian you'd come buzzing around it... Me too probably, at least initially, but it wouldn't take much for me to just fly past and find something not so sticky to land on... YUCK! :-/

# Posted on July 2nd 2007 by ceolachan

Sandra Kerr learned Lovely Nancy from the same source that I did: the Joshua Jackson m/s. This was published as "Tunes, Songs & Dances from the 1798 manuscript of Joshua Jackson, North Yorkshire cornmiller and musician" by Yorkshire Dales Workshops in 1998.
The editors Bowen & Shepherd have an interesting theory about Lovely Nancy: They mention that the tune appears in other manuscripts, and give a version by John Clare as an example - this is in Gmaj and 3/4 by the way. They then say: "Since Jackson's version is consistently a third higher throughout he may have begun writing on the wrong line and failed to notice his error. A similar mistake elsewhere in the M/s is noticed and corrected."
Taken at its face value Jackson's "version" (also in Gmaj and 3/4) has a more ethereal quality. Having it played it since the 1970's in this form I find it almost impossible to play the other versions.

On a more general point this illustrates the occasional problems of assigning tune types to specific time signatures. Usually it doesn't create difficulties but on odd occasions proves problematic.

Neil Brookes, Cheshire-based fiddle player, has recently shown me a wonderful version of Lovely Nancy with four variations of increasing complexity from an old m/s. (John Jones, Shropshire, 1801). This is written in Dmaj, 3/4, and goes repeatedly up into 3rd position on the fiddle.

# Posted on July 11th 2007 by daveball

I think it's more likely that JJ was transcribing the tune in Bbmaj, and just botched the key sig. Bbmaj was a common key in those days.

# Posted on July 11th 2007 by Dow

Just back from me hols and tried your key change without transposing the notes. It's a very persuasive theory. Many thanks Dow. I'll mention this to Sandra when I next see her.

# Posted on August 16th 2007 by daveball

"The 1798 manuscript of Joshua Jackson"

Yes, a fine collection... ;-)

# Posted on June 29th 2008 by ceolachan