I am thinking about getting my B/C tuned professionally in order to get the dry sound that I prefer. I contacted a tuner and he asked me just how dry I wanted the tuning. I found the following web site that gives some indications:
If you go for a completely dry tuning (ie reeds 0 cents apart) - what problems does this cause? The web site suggest 4 cents for dry tuning, but why not zero?
Does anyone have any advice or experience in this regard?
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
I might be wrong (and I can't access your link to check) but I thought the same cent difference on reeds tuned at 220Hz, for example, would give a differnt wetness for reeds tuned at 880Hz. So you would get a different number of beats per second depending where you were on the scale. Personally, I would ask the tuner to tune the reeds to give a number of beats per second rather than specify a difference in Hertz. For a dry tuning I'd go for about 1 beat per second and for a wetter sound about 3 or four beats per second.
Why not have the reeds tuned exactly the same? Well, it is believed that the resulting vibrato effect gives a better cutting edge to the sound to make it easier to be heard (concertinas are loud enough with only one reed!) but I think it's just what people expect and like to hear from a box*.
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
The author of the "Wet or Dry" article,
Rich Morse, is the owner of the Button Box and I'd believe what he's written. He's tuning by cent differences. Sure, you can have it tuned in unison. It'd be useful if you could refer the tuning technician to a recorded player's instrument that has the sound you want.
Whichever way it's tuned, order "a mano" or "tipo a mano" reeds for the best, or better, tone quality and consistency compared with standard machine-made reeds, especially if you have a high quality case and works for the retuned reeds.
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
"...rather than specify a difference in Hertz."
Whoops, just noticed this: I meant to say cents not Hertz.
It seems there are two camps (aren't there always?); those who like a constant number of beats up the scale and those who like there to be more beats the higer the octave (a fixed difference in cents would give you this).
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
Nice link, Compo.
I like the part where the one guy asks if "the pennies take care of themselves."
The "cent" difference, then, is used as convenient baseline tone character reference term.
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
I'm in the same situation though I need to change all the reeds to get B/C tuning. I asked the manufactures advice for common B/C box wetness after I had decided myself that 20+ cents would sound good in my ears. They replied that for other B/C reeds ordered from them about the same wetness is used. You can listen "wet-dry" samples from this site: http://www.accordionpage.com/wetdry.html
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
That question about pennies and cents was asked by yours truly.
Going back to Pete's original question, if you want a difference in cents, you need to specify where in the scale it falls - x cents at the top of the range gives a much faster tremolo than the same number of cents at the bottom. Middle C is a common reference point.
For example, I have been told that "tremolo americano" (one step wetter than swing) might typically be expressed as 9 cents at the bottom of the range, 4 cents at the top, with middle C at 7.3 cents.
I think that 4 cents at middle C would give you something close to "swing" - maybe "demi-swing" -tuning, not dry.
I don't know what the technical disadvantages of tuning both voices exactly to A=440Hz might be - but I think it might well make the box appear to sound quieter - the general opinion seems to be that wetter boxes have a more penetrating sound.
I don't like bone-dry tuning myself - why bother having two voices? On the other hand, risto, 20 cents difference anywhere in the scale would set my teeth on edge. You're talking 1950s Paolo Soprani musette territory here.
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
I just read the wetdry.html page linked to, and Rich Morse says why he finds it a bad idea to tune voices closer than 4 cents apart:
"Accordions with very dry tuning, say a 2 on our scale, would have reeds about 4 cents apart. I find that it is nearly impossible to have reeds any closer than this or they will beat in unison, sometimes even if they are in different banks!"
It's not clear whether "beating in unison" means they will produce the waah-waah effect that he describes in the previous sentence, but that is the implication.
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
>... On the other hand, risto, 20 cents difference anywhere in the scale would set my teeth on edge. You're talking 1950s Paolo Soprani musette territory here.
Well, I don't know about that, as I made some comparison with Sharon Shannon records and IMO the 20 cents tremolo sounds pretty close. On another accordion site the common wetness for Irish accordions is said to be between 9...25 cents, so it's pretty much a matter of taste, of course.
On the other hand, if you play melodies with dance speed and don't want to have any audible tremolo you can make a rough calculation based on your normal tempo. If we take as an example a convenient up tempo of say 240 1/8 notes per minute (=120 1/4 notes) then there is four 1/8 notes in one second and one 1/8 note takes the average of 0.25 seconds = 4 Hz. On A=440 Hz this corresponds roughly 15 cents. Any tremolo below that is not really audible. If you play with a student tempo say half of the up tempo, tremolo under 7,5 cents can not really be distinguished and therefore it is almost the same what wetness you choose (or is it?). Anyway, IMHO the question of the bass tremolo is much more important, specially if you like to play drone like basses.
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
Risto, we must have different Sharon Shannon records - on the ones I've heard there is no way the voices on her boxes are tuned to a gap anything like as wide as 20 cents anywhere on the scale. Her sound is very dry. You have been warned!
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
Ok Steve but before you warn me, please let me know how did you measure that the wetness is not as wide as 20 cents? I extracted a passage from a record and base my opinion on the wav file. Though she probably uses more than one box ...
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
I didn't measure anything - my ears tell me. My reference point comes from having played some musette-tuned Irish boxes, which I believe to be in the 20-25 cent range, and having worked with a tuner to find the sound that suited me at the drier end of the spectrum, with an 8-cent gap at A above middle C as a starting point (A = 440Hz and 442 Hz).
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
supposedly, the best two-reed "dry" sound is really 2 or three cents. reason being that 0 cents gives you a choked, thin sound, while a couple of cents still sounds like one note, but has a fullness to it. a thread exists out there, perhaps in yahoo's irishbox archives, to the effect that someone was advised thusly by billy mccomiskey and was grateful for it. i recently received a casti accordion i had ordered "swing," but to my ear this guy was too dry. i believe it was that fuller 2/3 cent sound. i had mine re-tuned to a sweet 10-cent "violin" musette. but this is soooooooo subjective!
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
Out of interest I've done a little table on what was said in the thread I linked to above.
Hz 5 cents 10 cents 15 cents 20 cents 25 cents 30 cents
A 220 0.65 1.31 1.96 2.62 3.27 3.92
A' 440 1.31 2.62 3.92 5.23 6.54 7.85
A'' 880 2.62 5.23 7.85 10.47 13.08 15.7
(I hope that comes out alright).
Assuming it is correct it looks like to me that a difference of 30 cents for the A below middle C would give 3.92 beats per second where as a 15 cent difference two octaves higher would give 5.23 beats per second. Therefore, 15 cents at 880Hz would sound wetter than 30 cents at 220Hz.
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
I know this was all talked about yonks ago.... maybe even several yonks. Yonk. But I'm interested now!
A lot of this discussion has been treating beats per second as the fundamental property of wet tuned boxes. Is it? It is clealy a very useful way of measuring. However, surely there is a distinctive sound as well as the rhythm of the beating. I am more interested in the tuning of my boxes. After all we do not set the tempo of the music to the tempo of the reeds!
I do not think. (as was mentioned previosly) a wet tuned reed played quickly sounds like a dry one becuase you here only as fraction of it's beat. I can clearly her more than one reed just the same as I can here more than one note in a chord. It's not just noise......well no it really is just thay.
I like 7 cents..., i think.
I have never heard shar shan on a anything other other than dry castagnaris....
B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
I am thinking about getting my B/C tuned professionally in order to get the dry sound that I prefer. I contacted a tuner and he asked me just how dry I wanted the tuning. I found the following web site that gives some indications:
http://www.accordionpage.com/wetdry.html
If you go for a completely dry tuning (ie reeds 0 cents apart) - what problems does this cause? The web site suggest 4 cents for dry tuning, but why not zero?
Does anyone have any advice or experience in this regard?
Many thanks,
Peter
# Posted on May 9th 2006 by petsav
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
I might be wrong (and I can't access your link to check) but I thought the same cent difference on reeds tuned at 220Hz, for example, would give a differnt wetness for reeds tuned at 880Hz. So you would get a different number of beats per second depending where you were on the scale. Personally, I would ask the tuner to tune the reeds to give a number of beats per second rather than specify a difference in Hertz. For a dry tuning I'd go for about 1 beat per second and for a wetter sound about 3 or four beats per second.
Why not have the reeds tuned exactly the same? Well, it is believed that the resulting vibrato effect gives a better cutting edge to the sound to make it easier to be heard (concertinas are loud enough with only one reed!) but I think it's just what people expect and like to hear from a box*.
Obviously, this only applies to box players
# Posted on May 9th 2006 by Compo
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
The author of the "Wet or Dry" article,
Rich Morse, is the owner of the Button Box and I'd believe what he's written. He's tuning by cent differences. Sure, you can have it tuned in unison. It'd be useful if you could refer the tuning technician to a recorded player's instrument that has the sound you want.
Whichever way it's tuned, order "a mano" or "tipo a mano" reeds for the best, or better, tone quality and consistency compared with standard machine-made reeds, especially if you have a high quality case and works for the retuned reeds.
If you haven't yet, try asking in the "Technical" section at:
http://melodeon.aimoo.com/
# Posted on May 9th 2006 by joesmith
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
Going to the site above I found this discussion that may shed some light on it for you.
http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=546320&CategoryID=270441&startcat=1&ThreadID=2398412
# Posted on May 9th 2006 by Compo
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
"...rather than specify a difference in Hertz."
Whoops, just noticed this: I meant to say cents not Hertz.
It seems there are two camps (aren't there always?); those who like a constant number of beats up the scale and those who like there to be more beats the higer the octave (a fixed difference in cents would give you this).
# Posted on May 9th 2006 by Compo
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
Nice link, Compo.
I like the part where the one guy asks if "the pennies take care of themselves."
The "cent" difference, then, is used as convenient baseline tone character reference term.
# Posted on May 9th 2006 by joesmith
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
I'm in the same situation though I need to change all the reeds to get B/C tuning. I asked the manufactures advice for common B/C box wetness after I had decided myself that 20+ cents would sound good in my ears. They replied that for other B/C reeds ordered from them about the same wetness is used. You can listen "wet-dry" samples from this site:
http://www.accordionpage.com/wetdry.html
# Posted on May 9th 2006 by Risto
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
PS. Sorry, I noticed that you already had that link. Well, taking another listen doesn't hurt, does it
# Posted on May 9th 2006 by Risto
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
That question about pennies and cents was asked by yours truly.
Going back to Pete's original question, if you want a difference in cents, you need to specify where in the scale it falls - x cents at the top of the range gives a much faster tremolo than the same number of cents at the bottom. Middle C is a common reference point.
For example, I have been told that "tremolo americano" (one step wetter than swing) might typically be expressed as 9 cents at the bottom of the range, 4 cents at the top, with middle C at 7.3 cents.
I think that 4 cents at middle C would give you something close to "swing" - maybe "demi-swing" -tuning, not dry.
I don't know what the technical disadvantages of tuning both voices exactly to A=440Hz might be - but I think it might well make the box appear to sound quieter - the general opinion seems to be that wetter boxes have a more penetrating sound.
I don't like bone-dry tuning myself - why bother having two voices? On the other hand, risto, 20 cents difference anywhere in the scale would set my teeth on edge. You're talking 1950s Paolo Soprani musette territory here.
# Posted on May 10th 2006 by Jeeves Tones
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
I just read the wetdry.html page linked to, and Rich Morse says why he finds it a bad idea to tune voices closer than 4 cents apart:
"Accordions with very dry tuning, say a 2 on our scale, would have reeds about 4 cents apart. I find that it is nearly impossible to have reeds any closer than this or they will beat in unison, sometimes even if they are in different banks!"
It's not clear whether "beating in unison" means they will produce the waah-waah effect that he describes in the previous sentence, but that is the implication.
# Posted on May 10th 2006 by Jeeves Tones
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
>... On the other hand, risto, 20 cents difference anywhere in the scale would set my teeth on edge. You're talking 1950s Paolo Soprani musette territory here.
Well, I don't know about that, as I made some comparison with Sharon Shannon records and IMO the 20 cents tremolo sounds pretty close. On another accordion site the common wetness for Irish accordions is said to be between 9...25 cents, so it's pretty much a matter of taste, of course.
On the other hand, if you play melodies with dance speed and don't want to have any audible tremolo you can make a rough calculation based on your normal tempo. If we take as an example a convenient up tempo of say 240 1/8 notes per minute (=120 1/4 notes) then there is four 1/8 notes in one second and one 1/8 note takes the average of 0.25 seconds = 4 Hz. On A=440 Hz this corresponds roughly 15 cents. Any tremolo below that is not really audible. If you play with a student tempo say half of the up tempo, tremolo under 7,5 cents can not really be distinguished and therefore it is almost the same what wetness you choose (or is it?). Anyway, IMHO the question of the bass tremolo is much more important, specially if you like to play drone like basses.
# Posted on May 10th 2006 by Risto
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
>>therefore it is almost the same what wetness you choose (or is it?).
Below the threshold that is.
# Posted on May 10th 2006 by Risto
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
Risto, we must have different Sharon Shannon records - on the ones I've heard there is no way the voices on her boxes are tuned to a gap anything like as wide as 20 cents anywhere on the scale. Her sound is very dry. You have been warned!
# Posted on May 10th 2006 by Jeeves Tones
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
Ok Steve but before you warn me, please let me know how did you measure that the wetness is not as wide as 20 cents? I extracted a passage from a record and base my opinion on the wav file. Though she probably uses more than one box ...
# Posted on May 10th 2006 by Risto
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
To be exact, I used the tune Mouth of the Tobique in which I found the accordion wetness the way I like it.
# Posted on May 10th 2006 by Risto
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
I didn't measure anything - my ears tell me. My reference point comes from having played some musette-tuned Irish boxes, which I believe to be in the 20-25 cent range, and having worked with a tuner to find the sound that suited me at the drier end of the spectrum, with an 8-cent gap at A above middle C as a starting point (A = 440Hz and 442 Hz).
Have a listen to a typical Paolo musette-tuned box here: http://www.wtsc.btinternet.co.uk/paolo2.htm
# Posted on May 10th 2006 by Jeeves Tones
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
Well, then you should have noticed that Shannon uses different types of accordions on her records, there is no just one sound or wetness.
# Posted on May 11th 2006 by Risto
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
supposedly, the best two-reed "dry" sound is really 2 or three cents. reason being that 0 cents gives you a choked, thin sound, while a couple of cents still sounds like one note, but has a fullness to it. a thread exists out there, perhaps in yahoo's irishbox archives, to the effect that someone was advised thusly by billy mccomiskey and was grateful for it. i recently received a casti accordion i had ordered "swing," but to my ear this guy was too dry. i believe it was that fuller 2/3 cent sound. i had mine re-tuned to a sweet 10-cent "violin" musette. but this is soooooooo subjective!
# Posted on May 11th 2006 by ceemonster
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
Out of interest I've done a little table on what was said in the thread I linked to above.
Hz 5 cents 10 cents 15 cents 20 cents 25 cents 30 cents
A 220 0.65 1.31 1.96 2.62 3.27 3.92
A' 440 1.31 2.62 3.92 5.23 6.54 7.85
A'' 880 2.62 5.23 7.85 10.47 13.08 15.7
(I hope that comes out alright).
Assuming it is correct it looks like to me that a difference of 30 cents for the A below middle C would give 3.92 beats per second where as a 15 cent difference two octaves higher would give 5.23 beats per second. Therefore, 15 cents at 880Hz would sound wetter than 30 cents at 220Hz.
# Posted on May 11th 2006 by Compo
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
Well it didn't so here goes again.
+5 +10 +15 +20 +25 +30 Cents
A(220Hz) 0.65 1.31 1.96 2.62 3.27 3.92
A(440Hz) 1.31 2.62 3.92 5.23 6.54 7.85
A(880Hz) 2.62 5.23 7.85 10.47 13.08 15.70
My own preference would be about 2 beats per second so at 220Hz that would be +15 cents, at 440Hz 7.5cents and at 880Hz about 4 Hz.
# Posted on May 11th 2006 by Compo
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
We obviously this forum does its own formatting but I'm sure you can work it out.
# Posted on May 11th 2006 by Compo
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
Thank you all for your advice. I think I might just take a friend's box along to the tuner and say "like that please"!
# Posted on May 11th 2006 by petsav
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
I know this was all talked about yonks ago.... maybe even several yonks. Yonk. But I'm interested now!
A lot of this discussion has been treating beats per second as the fundamental property of wet tuned boxes. Is it? It is clealy a very useful way of measuring. However, surely there is a distinctive sound as well as the rhythm of the beating. I am more interested in the tuning of my boxes. After all we do not set the tempo of the music to the tempo of the reeds!
I do not think. (as was mentioned previosly) a wet tuned reed played quickly sounds like a dry one becuase you here only as fraction of it's beat. I can clearly her more than one reed just the same as I can here more than one note in a chord. It's not just noise......well no it really is just thay.
I like 7 cents..., i think.
I have never heard shar shan on a anything other other than dry castagnaris....
al
# Posted on June 20th 2007 by Alikz Fiddler
Re: B/C Button Accordion Dry Tuning - How Many Cents?
Here is Steve Jordan on a GCF three-row tuned all in 440 (unison). He prefers this type of tuning for jazz.
http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=35285382
Gilbert
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by gilbert27