I just bought an AKG C 411 L to use on my fiddle together with an AKG B 29 L battery pack, but have not managed to get a good sound so far.
Before I bought it, I tried an AKG C 411 PP (with a normal size XLR at the other end of the pickup cable - these don't seem to be made anymore), and it worked really well on my fiddle. However, the C 411 L only gives me a very trebly sound that hurts your ears. I've tried to attach it to different parts of the bridge, and I've tried attaching around 1/3 of the top bit of the pickup to the lower end of the bridge (this seems to work a little bit better), as well as attaching the pickup to the body of the fiddle itself, just by the lower end of the bridge (this was better but also amplified the sound of my fingers hitting the finger board...).
The only time the sound has been acceptable was when the top was taken off completely and the bottom set to maximum, but this only worked once (that time I had the whole pickup attached to the bottom end of the bridge, on the side towards me).
Could anybody give me some advice, please? How should I attach the pickup to the fiddle? I've heard good things about this pickup, so it must be something I'm doing wrong, unless this particular pickup is faulty...
Return it and get a clip on mic. Pickups do not and probably never will reproduce the sound of a fiddle. There are plenty of threads previously written on this forum on this subject, try a search.
I did actually do quite an extensive search, but I didn't find anything about this pickup in particular. I have read a few things on the Internet about people using the C 411 on cellos and guitars and being very happy with it, but as I explained earlier, I am interested in ideas on how to best position it on a fiddle.
The problem is an impedance mismatch all you have to do is switch on the button on the center of the B29 L and it will match the impedance with that of the amp that you are plugged into. Details can be found at http://www.akg.com/products/powerslave,mynodeid,15,id,42,pid,42,_language,EN.html and download the pdf manual simple if you know how
I'm not a great fan of contact pickups for string instruments, I just miss too much of the actual note in the air.
Fiddles are such complex machines, with all the vibrations working together from different parts of the instrument, that it seems that using a small contact pickup on just one point would necessarily leave out way too much of what the instrument is doing...
I used to use a clip-on mic, an AKG C418, that could clip onto the chin rest and extend out over the strings. It was pretty ok, and following that concept we experimented til we settled on an AudioTechnica 35x Pro, which has a slightly longer gooseneck so that the mic can be adjusted better, farther above the strings for a more open and airy sound, and it also seems to sound much more full.
I think we got the idea from seeing Sean Smyth (of Lunasa) using one at a festival.
If you don't solve the problem with impedance matching, you may want to consider a mic...
Thanks so much for the advice, stv and brians! I will follow it up in the morning and let you know how I get on.
I actually have an Accusound fiddle microphone (which has been mentioned in this discussion group previously, I noticed) which I have used for a few years now and which I like, but I just got fed up with the feedback problems (which probably has got to do with me pointing the mic in all kinds of directions rather than the mic itself, because I think it's a good mic) and when I tried the AKG C 411 PP and it was so easy to use and there was no feedback at all I just though, wow, this is great, this is so easy, I want one like this. But then when I got one it wasn't that easy, of course...
I've just sent my Accusound mic back to the manufacturer due to a bad connection between the mic and its cable (which I think is a result of me pulling the cable too hard in the wrong direction when using it), so at the moment I'm just using an AKG C 1000.
You all may think this is crazy but I have had good luck with this set up: Radio Shack tie clip stereo mic,(they are not expensive) I bend a small loop at each end of a copper #14 wire for each very small mic ,attach to tailpiece.I send the signal to a small behringer mixer(around 30$) I can pan left and rt. (low side and high) and adjust gain and EQ -I like it better than the fishman set up which is 6 times the price!
Again, a mic is the best bet. If you're feeding back it probably has more to do with how you're EQing yourself and the other instruments and less with the mic itself. Less midrange and more bottom, for example, might help. Move the monitors around so there's less loop. Feedback comes from a lot of different places, not just your relation to the sound system, but your relation to each other in the EQ. But definitely spend out on the quality sound stuff or you'll always have these problems. Lastly, Feedback is not always a volume issue, but more usually related to the EQ. Hope this helps.
Sofie J wrote, "... I just got fed up with the feedback problems (which probably has got to do with me pointing the mic in all kinds of directions rather than the mic itself..."
Yeah, that's a danger... Our fiddler, TJ Hull, has gotten quite used to ways of pointing the fiddle away from the monitors when he's not playing. For a while it was pretty funny watching him dance around trying to get the mic free of the stage monitors. <GGG>
Your mention of the C1000 reminds me... I work with another fiddler, Maggie Olivo (in non-ITM music) who much prefers to have a stand mic so that she can use it for dynamics in the songs. Different strokes... The C1000 isn't always my favorite mic for fiddle, and certainly not in the recording studio, but they do well live. The narrow hypercardiod pattern is useful in minimizing feedback.
But the real key is to keep onstage volumes low, which is tough with bands with electric instruments. For the Culchies trio we have little difficulty with it (knock wood... <GG>).
One day we'll all be able to use in-ear monitors and feedback may be a thing of the past...
I think you -may- be able to find the spot on your fiddle (probably not the bridge) where the 411 can pick up most of what the instrument can generate, but it would probably take some time with a violin maker or repair tech to actually find that spot.
I heard a fiddler last week who had an OLD Barcus-Berry Hot Spot pickup stuck onto the fiddle with Handi-Tak office putty.
Before I saw the fiddle I thought the band was taking a synthesizer solo... ack! <GGG>
Not all contact pickups need to sound that way... <GGG>
I have an AKG C411 with battery pack. I first tried it on the bridge but found the sound similarly objectionable.
It sounds better (quite logically) as a pickup on the body (where the sound we hear mostly comes from) and not the bridge as indicated in some of AKG's more recent literature.
While there is an issue for loose varnish being peeled off by the putty, I have not found this to be a problem. I have used this mic (including the most recent version- old one had damaged cable) for about 10 years. It is not surprising that the on bridge sound is not so good, as when we play violin we hear very little of the overall sound from the bridge.
After moving it around a lot on the violin top to find a good sound, I found on my violin I got a good sound from the top between the bridge and the tailpiece. I install it from the E-string side, with the "round bit" pointing to the other side of the violin somewhere just before the G string.
Its not quite in the same sound bracket as an AMT VS (holy grail of violin mics IMO) but good for the price and very easy to use. Compared to a stand mounted mic I found the AKG C411 to be great, as less "open" mics on stage so lower feedback. The close micing of the violin obviously is not quite the same as a distance mic, but is a very practical solution ad eliminates some of the issues of dodgy room acoustics.
I have even used this for loud environments and not had any problems with the mic being swamped with cymbals etc.
Richard -(purpleviolin)
I realise this is an old post but it came up on Google and contains incorrect information on the AKG C411.
Piezo "pickups" (small round or rectangular things) which attach to parts of a fiddle usually produce harsh horrible sound. They are very high impedance devices and produce miniscule electrical output. Impedance matching is often over-rated as an issue but certainly in the case of piezo stuff an impedance matching preamp is invariably needed. The usual problem with these things is that they are harsh horrible things and are generally unsaveable, preamp or not.
I have never heard any gadget which attaches to the bridge sound any good. ie anything remotely like an acoustic sound.
Just don't bother with attaching to the bridge.
The C411 is not a piezo "pickup" . It is a contact condensor microphone. This is evidenced by the C411 (like all condensor mikes) needing power to operate. This power is supplied by the B29 unit which is also a 2 channel mixer and preamplifier. 'Get a mike' is not a valid comment. The B29 is a factory designed compatible unit which outputs 3 pin balanced signal perfectly suitable for a modern professional mixer input.
There are no impedance matching issues and they certainly will not be fixed by using the output level switch clearly marked Mic/Line. brians is way off the beam.
I use the C411 on acoustic mandolin - not an easy one to pickup and the C411 gives the most acoustic tone I have come across. I do completely cut "bass" frequencies (non existent on mandolin anyhow) to reduce fingerboard and extraneous body noises.
From yearsof stuffing with such things, there is no substitute for hours of trial and error to find the best or "sweet" spot on the soundboard to mount a soundboard transducer of any type. Experimentation with tone/eq controls also helps. I think a liveable or even good sound should be achievable with this microphone.
Using the AKG C 411 L pickup on a fiddle
Using the AKG C 411 L pickup on a fiddle
Dear Sessioners,
I just bought an AKG C 411 L to use on my fiddle together with an AKG B 29 L battery pack, but have not managed to get a good sound so far.
Before I bought it, I tried an AKG C 411 PP (with a normal size XLR at the other end of the pickup cable - these don't seem to be made anymore), and it worked really well on my fiddle. However, the C 411 L only gives me a very trebly sound that hurts your ears. I've tried to attach it to different parts of the bridge, and I've tried attaching around 1/3 of the top bit of the pickup to the lower end of the bridge (this seems to work a little bit better), as well as attaching the pickup to the body of the fiddle itself, just by the lower end of the bridge (this was better but also amplified the sound of my fingers hitting the finger board...).
The only time the sound has been acceptable was when the top was taken off completely and the bottom set to maximum, but this only worked once (that time I had the whole pickup attached to the bottom end of the bridge, on the side towards me).
Could anybody give me some advice, please? How should I attach the pickup to the fiddle? I've heard good things about this pickup, so it must be something I'm doing wrong, unless this particular pickup is faulty...
Many thanks in advance,
Sofie
# Posted on May 8th 2006 by SofieJ
Re: Using the AKG C 411 L pickup on a fiddle
Return it and get a clip on mic. Pickups do not and probably never will reproduce the sound of a fiddle. There are plenty of threads previously written on this forum on this subject, try a search.
# Posted on May 8th 2006 by Farr
Re: Using the AKG C 411 L pickup on a fiddle
I did actually do quite an extensive search, but I didn't find anything about this pickup in particular. I have read a few things on the Internet about people using the C 411 on cellos and guitars and being very happy with it, but as I explained earlier, I am interested in ideas on how to best position it on a fiddle.
Many thanks for your help.
# Posted on May 8th 2006 by SofieJ
Re: Using the AKG C 411 L pickup on a fiddle
The problem is an impedance mismatch all you have to do is switch on the button on the center of the B29 L and it will match the impedance with that of the amp that you are plugged into. Details can be found at http://www.akg.com/products/powerslave,mynodeid,15,id,42,pid,42,_language,EN.html and download the pdf manual simple if you know how
# Posted on May 9th 2006 by brians
Re: Using the AKG C 411 L pickup on a fiddle
There'll be no stopping you in Hootannany now, Sofie.
# Posted on May 9th 2006 by Johnny Jay
Re: Using the AKG C 411 L pickup on a fiddle
Here's the AKG page on the C411 L:
http://www.akg.com/products/powerslave,mynodeid,184,id,357,pid,357,_language,EN.html
I'm not a great fan of contact pickups for string instruments, I just miss too much of the actual note in the air.
Fiddles are such complex machines, with all the vibrations working together from different parts of the instrument, that it seems that using a small contact pickup on just one point would necessarily leave out way too much of what the instrument is doing...
I used to use a clip-on mic, an AKG C418, that could clip onto the chin rest and extend out over the strings. It was pretty ok, and following that concept we experimented til we settled on an AudioTechnica 35x Pro, which has a slightly longer gooseneck so that the mic can be adjusted better, farther above the strings for a more open and airy sound, and it also seems to sound much more full.
I think we got the idea from seeing Sean Smyth (of Lunasa) using one at a festival.
If you don't solve the problem with impedance matching, you may want to consider a mic...
Best,
stv
The Culchies, Irish traditional music
CD, "Bruscar Bán" now at
http://www.OSSIANUSA.com
and
http://cdbaby.com/Culchies
# Posted on May 9th 2006 by stv culchie
Re: Using the AKG C 411 L pickup on a fiddle
Thanks so much for the advice, stv and brians! I will follow it up in the morning and let you know how I get on.
I actually have an Accusound fiddle microphone (which has been mentioned in this discussion group previously, I noticed) which I have used for a few years now and which I like, but I just got fed up with the feedback problems (which probably has got to do with me pointing the mic in all kinds of directions rather than the mic itself, because I think it's a good mic) and when I tried the AKG C 411 PP and it was so easy to use and there was no feedback at all I just though, wow, this is great, this is so easy, I want one like this. But then when I got one it wasn't that easy, of course...
I've just sent my Accusound mic back to the manufacturer due to a bad connection between the mic and its cable (which I think is a result of me pulling the cable too hard in the wrong direction when using it), so at the moment I'm just using an AKG C 1000.
So again, many thanks for your help!
Sofie
# Posted on May 9th 2006 by SofieJ
Re: Using the AKG C 411 L pickup on a fiddle
You all may think this is crazy but I have had good luck with this set up: Radio Shack tie clip stereo mic,(they are not expensive) I bend a small loop at each end of a copper #14 wire for each very small mic ,attach to tailpiece.I send the signal to a small behringer mixer(around 30$) I can pan left and rt. (low side and high) and adjust gain and EQ -I like it better than the fishman set up which is 6 times the price!
# Posted on May 10th 2006 by dorian
Re: Using the AKG C 411 L pickup on a fiddle
Again, a mic is the best bet. If you're feeding back it probably has more to do with how you're EQing yourself and the other instruments and less with the mic itself. Less midrange and more bottom, for example, might help. Move the monitors around so there's less loop. Feedback comes from a lot of different places, not just your relation to the sound system, but your relation to each other in the EQ. But definitely spend out on the quality sound stuff or you'll always have these problems. Lastly, Feedback is not always a volume issue, but more usually related to the EQ. Hope this helps.
# Posted on May 10th 2006 by Farr
Re: Using the AKG C 411 L pickup on a fiddle
try this fabulous little gadget......
http://www.riml.biz/fiddlepro.html
# Posted on May 10th 2006 by Taurus
Re: Using the AKG C 411 L pickup on a fiddle
Sofie J wrote, "... I just got fed up with the feedback problems (which probably has got to do with me pointing the mic in all kinds of directions rather than the mic itself..."
Yeah, that's a danger... Our fiddler, TJ Hull, has gotten quite used to ways of pointing the fiddle away from the monitors when he's not playing. For a while it was pretty funny watching him dance around trying to get the mic free of the stage monitors. <GGG>
Your mention of the C1000 reminds me... I work with another fiddler, Maggie Olivo (in non-ITM music) who much prefers to have a stand mic so that she can use it for dynamics in the songs. Different strokes... The C1000 isn't always my favorite mic for fiddle, and certainly not in the recording studio, but they do well live. The narrow hypercardiod pattern is useful in minimizing feedback.
But the real key is to keep onstage volumes low, which is tough with bands with electric instruments. For the Culchies trio we have little difficulty with it (knock wood... <GG>).
One day we'll all be able to use in-ear monitors and feedback may be a thing of the past...
I think you -may- be able to find the spot on your fiddle (probably not the bridge) where the 411 can pick up most of what the instrument can generate, but it would probably take some time with a violin maker or repair tech to actually find that spot.
I heard a fiddler last week who had an OLD Barcus-Berry Hot Spot pickup stuck onto the fiddle with Handi-Tak office putty.
Before I saw the fiddle I thought the band was taking a synthesizer solo... ack! <GGG>
Not all contact pickups need to sound that way... <GGG>
stv
The Culchies, Irish traditional music
CD, "Bruscar Bán" now at
http://www.OSSIANUSA.com
and
http://cdbaby.com/Culchies
# Posted on May 10th 2006 by stv culchie
Re: Using the AKG C 411 L pickup on a fiddle
I have an AKG C411 with battery pack. I first tried it on the bridge but found the sound similarly objectionable.
It sounds better (quite logically) as a pickup on the body (where the sound we hear mostly comes from) and not the bridge as indicated in some of AKG's more recent literature.
While there is an issue for loose varnish being peeled off by the putty, I have not found this to be a problem. I have used this mic (including the most recent version- old one had damaged cable) for about 10 years. It is not surprising that the on bridge sound is not so good, as when we play violin we hear very little of the overall sound from the bridge.
After moving it around a lot on the violin top to find a good sound, I found on my violin I got a good sound from the top between the bridge and the tailpiece. I install it from the E-string side, with the "round bit" pointing to the other side of the violin somewhere just before the G string.
Its not quite in the same sound bracket as an AMT VS (holy grail of violin mics IMO) but good for the price and very easy to use. Compared to a stand mounted mic I found the AKG C411 to be great, as less "open" mics on stage so lower feedback. The close micing of the violin obviously is not quite the same as a distance mic, but is a very practical solution ad eliminates some of the issues of dodgy room acoustics.
I have even used this for loud environments and not had any problems with the mic being swamped with cymbals etc.
Richard -(purpleviolin)
# Posted on December 30th 2006 by purpleviolin
Re: Using the AKG C 411 L pickup on a fiddle
I realise this is an old post but it came up on Google and contains incorrect information on the AKG C411.
Piezo "pickups" (small round or rectangular things) which attach to parts of a fiddle usually produce harsh horrible sound. They are very high impedance devices and produce miniscule electrical output. Impedance matching is often over-rated as an issue but certainly in the case of piezo stuff an impedance matching preamp is invariably needed. The usual problem with these things is that they are harsh horrible things and are generally unsaveable, preamp or not.
I have never heard any gadget which attaches to the bridge sound any good. ie anything remotely like an acoustic sound.
Just don't bother with attaching to the bridge.
The C411 is not a piezo "pickup" . It is a contact condensor microphone. This is evidenced by the C411 (like all condensor mikes) needing power to operate. This power is supplied by the B29 unit which is also a 2 channel mixer and preamplifier. 'Get a mike' is not a valid comment. The B29 is a factory designed compatible unit which outputs 3 pin balanced signal perfectly suitable for a modern professional mixer input.
There are no impedance matching issues and they certainly will not be fixed by using the output level switch clearly marked Mic/Line. brians is way off the beam.
I use the C411 on acoustic mandolin - not an easy one to pickup and the C411 gives the most acoustic tone I have come across. I do completely cut "bass" frequencies (non existent on mandolin anyhow) to reduce fingerboard and extraneous body noises.
From yearsof stuffing with such things, there is no substitute for hours of trial and error to find the best or "sweet" spot on the soundboard to mount a soundboard transducer of any type. Experimentation with tone/eq controls also helps. I think a liveable or even good sound should be achievable with this microphone.
# Posted on August 21st 2008 by WallyWombat
Re: Using the AKG C 411 L pickup on a fiddle
Myself, I use an AK 47 and it seems to dismantle most banjos, accordii, and bodhrans very satsifactorily....
# Posted on August 21st 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Using the AKG C 411 L pickup on a fiddle
Hey CPT good to find a lateral thinker. I will try one at our gig down the local. It should reduce troublesome feedback subtantially.
# Posted on August 21st 2008 by WallyWombat