Hi everyone--this is my first submitted discussion. I play (Irish) harp and about 10 months ago I took up the fiddle. something someone said to me triggered my decision (although it had been brewing in the back of mind for some time already.) He said, " to really play Irish music, you've got to play more than one intrument." (for those of you who play only one instrument--please do not get angry--I don't necessarily feel his statement is totally true, but it gave me the push to at least try to learn a second instrument.)
So--how do you feel your familiarity with how the music is played on one instrument informs your playing on the other. I assume it can work both ways--with the one you've been playing longer and the new one. Also how does your knowledge of ITM in general become more well-rounded as a result of learning two intruments.
I don't think it is "necessary" to play more than one instrument - a lot of Irish musicians do, but on the other hand, some of the greatest musicians have only ever played one instrument, Francie Donnellan, Mark Donnellan, Paddy Canny to name just a couple. However it is nice to play more than one just for the variety. I think your choice of the fiddle is a good one. You can have a close relationship with a fiddle - it is very unforgiving, answers back to you and mellows with playing (just like the wife really).
Yes Bernie, of course I agree that it is not necessary to play more than one instrument--so many great players play only one. And the fiddle is very unforgiving, just like you said! As opposed to the harp which, is extremely forgiving! ( any wrong note you hit will not sound as bad as a wrong one on the fiddle!)
One of my friends and I are both multi-instrumentalists, it's nice when we're ceili-ing together in our kitchen and he lays down the fiddle and picks up the flute, then lays down the flute and picks up the banjo. It's not necessary, in fact, it's sometimes a hinderance -- before you pick up another instrument you have to be sure you can play your first instrument perfectly (whatever that means!!!), then and only then can you start on the second. I've found out (from experience) that taking piano lessons, learning the Highland pipes, learning the guitar, learning the fiddle, and playing the whistle can get a bit confusing, especially when it comes to fingering. People have told me I'll get it, eventually, and I think it's still coming -- but it was hard!
Well, Mark, I don't know if I agree with "before you pick up another instrument you should be able to play the first one perfectly." I have been playing harp for 6 years now, and have reached a level where I now take the "advanced level" workshops. But I will always be trying to improve. And I may always struggle with left hand accompainment, syncopation, and other things, too. Why should I wait to learn fiddle? (While I continue to learn harp as well) I waited way to long my whole life for too many things, due to shyness, confidence issues, etc. I am already 38. I'd like to be a competent fiddler before arthritis sets in.
Seize the day! (I wasn't sure how to spell Carpe Diem)
Some instruments are natural pairs - mandolin, or banjo is perfect for fiddlers. It helps to "see" that those half step are frets. Does anyone see these parallels in other instruments?
I think playing a couple of instruments gives another insight to the tunes (I don't know about you guys but all insights are good ones to me). Just make sure you don't become one of those people who goes to a session with 5 instruments, none of which you can play well. As far as "You have to play more than one instrument to be an Irish Musician." we should all know that a general statement like that should be taken with a grain of salt IMO. Many great musicians can, but not all.
The advice about not learning a second instrument until you can play the first one if not perfectly then at least compentently is sound. It takes all your concentration and energies to learn an instrument from scratch (sorry, fiddle players!). Muddying the waters learning a second instrument simultaneously will more than double the work.
It can be helpful in a session to turn to another instrument so as to change the overall sound colour of the ensemble. And again, some tunes are more effective or easier on one instrument than on another.
When you have learnt one or more instruments reasonably well you will find that skills are often transferable at least in part to a new instrument.
Yes, I AGREE that the comment "to really play Irish music you have to play more than one instrument" is not a statement of fact. It may have even been a statement made in jest. It just made a light bulb go off over my head, that's all.
Yes, I also agree with, "be careful not to become one of those people who goes to a session with 5 instruments, and can't play any of them well." I practice my harp and my fiddle everyday. But that's enough. 95 % of my free time is spent playing, thinking about, listening to and reading about (and discussing!) ITM. And people are constantly asking me why I don't paint anymore!!
I think there is an interesting point to the idea that playing more than one instrument is beneficial to better understanding of the Irish music tradition. Since this music is played in a group, understanding the other instruments helps the player better understand the whole form, and get a more group-oriented perspective of playing. Perhaps it helps us focus more on the music itself, instead of just the instrument.
Another way of serving this same purpose is to take music lessons from someone who is playing a different instrument than the one you are playing. Shannon Heaton (the flute player) suggested that I try that when I first started playing the uilleann pipes. I have taken her suggestion, and have learned a lot from fiddle players, whistle players, box players, bodhran and of course Shannon's wonderful flute playing. I also still try to get pipe lessons of course. I think the added perspectives have helped me in many ways. Of course, actually playing these instruments could enhance the musical experience in a similar, even more beneficial way.
On the other hand, the pipes keep me plenty busy at the moment, and I'm not practicing much whistle yet. When the pipes have had more time, then maybe I'll get around to the whistle.
Dirk makes a good point about focussing on the music rather than the instrument. Being able to play one instrument excellently is far better than just stumbling through a session on 6 different instruments.
When I said "until you can play the first one perfectly (whatever that means!!!)" the part in the brackets was to emphasize that you can never be perfect.
Learning different instruments is great, though -- it helps a player realize different "sides" of the same tune, not to mention the benefits of going to a session where you normally play fiddle and the guitarist hasn't shown up -- pick up the guitar and now you're a guitarist. Pretty handy, and if you can do the "transition" (ie. if you're competent on both instruments) the crowd goes "wow!"
That's all for now -- I'm pretty talkative today.
I think you spelled Carpe Diem correctly
Does your knowledge of ITM in general become more well-rounded as a result of learning two intruments? --Andee
I like this question. The answer is yes! I play several instruments quite well and my knowledge and playing have gone through the roof. Playing different instruments makes you a more versatile musician in more ways than one. The biggest advantage is that you understand the music from different aspects. The different mechanics involved on each instrument gives you a whole other insight to music in general. You now understand how a box player thinks, how a flute player handles two things at once (breathing and fingering), how a picker picks and fingers, etc. I can tell you this knowledge is invaluable. If you play several instruments there is always a "wow!" factor from the crowd AND your fellow musicians. The point that a tenor banjo player can play mandolin and flute player can play whistle and vice versa is absolutely true. There is no excuse not to play those instruments which are related to your primary instrument. I would suggest that you become proficient at one instrument before taking up another. However, you may find your primary instrument may not be your best instrument. The truth is, being able to play more than one instrument makes you a more versatile session player and bandmate. It also gives you insight into the playing of music at different levels. My playing and musicianship has benefited greatly from playing different instruments.
Completely agree & a light bulb is currently going off in my own head. I'm an average guitar & piano player but haven't played either seriously in years. When I first picked up the bodhran, I was shocked at what was considered the appropriate way to bend my wrist around to hold the tipper, & I really really stunk. If I were to pick up another ITM instrument besides flute & whistle, I was actually thinking pipes, but perhaps it would behoove me to focus on the rhythm instruments since that is where my weakness (one of them) seems to lie.
A second instrument, particularly if it's very different from your first, can be an amazing learning experience. It can also be rather frustrating, but worth it.
My main experience here isn't with Irish music, but I think there's a general principle here.
I grew up playing clarinet. Playing a woodwind gives you a strong sense of scale basic playing - scales are very tactile on a woodwind. It gives you an excellent sense of melody, and how melody works.
After about 20 years of playing the clarinet, I started learning the 5-string banjo. It was incredibly different, and very difficult for me. But I learned a lot from it. A 5-string banjo is primary a chordal rythym instrument. Playing it gives you a very strong sense of where the *pulse* of a tune is, because it's your job to reinforce that. It gives you a sense of the structure or shape of the tune, because that's what determines what you're doing, chordally.
Personally, I've never been able to fully grasp chordal playing. I just can't quite wrap my head around it. But the time playing banjo gave me more understanding of it than I had, and increased my understanding of where the pulse of a tune comes from, and how to reinforce it with my playing.
These days, since I discovered Irish music again, and made the switch to tinwhistle and flute. They're not that different from clarinet; what I knew from playing the clarinet translated over well. And what I learned from the banjo has strengthened my whistle and flute playing.
So yeah... Learning a second instrument is really valuable. Even if you don't ever really get good enough to really play it seriously - you'll learn things that you'll take back to your main instrument.
Since my first instrument was piano, I have had, from an early age, a sense of harmony (in the musical sense of the word) instilled in me, which may seem almost superfluous to ITM. But it has undoubtedly influenced the way I hear a tune. I usually know what key or mode a tune is in by the end of the first bar - often before the accompanist has worked it out (although they may make a far better job of accompanying it than I would, once they have found the key). Nowadays, I play mainly mandolin and whistle, having learned both of them more or less simultaneously. In terms of my level of proficiency, the whistle is definitely my second instrument. However, I do find that having two completely different instruments gives two different perspectives on the music, and my playing of one influences my playing of the other.
I often go through phases of favouring one instrument or the other, during which my viewpoint on the music changes, and my playing develops. As I discover new forms of ornamentation, variations etc. on one instrument, I then find myself, almost unconsciously, transferring them onto the other instrument. In light of this, I consider my playing to be, if nothing else, well rounded.
OK, I admit it! I am the guy who would come to the session with five instruments, not playing one of them good enough. Or in other words: I'm the guy who don't understand the question about second instrument because all my instruments are "second instruments". And it's all because it's so much fun to approach a new instrument and get some grips on how to make music from it. Maybe it's not always the smartest thing to do, but in some ways it has its obvious advantages.
For example:when I first started playing ITM it was on whistle. So many tunes seemed so strange according to the "logic" of the whistle. All these tunes became obvious later on when I picked up the mandolin (which is tuned like the fiddles). All these tunes where "fiddle-tunes".
Having picked up the bodhran has helped me play ITM in a more rythmical way also when I play melody instruments. On the other hand; my main advantage as a bodhran-player is that I'm focused on the melody. The worst bodhran-players are often drummers who think they should play as they normally play the drums.
Learning two or more instruments is of course a slower and more difficult way than to concentrate on one instrument. It will still take some years before I get good enough on one or more of my instruments. But meanwhile I'm having a great time (even though I may be a pain in the *ss fore my fellow musicians) and I think it will pay off some day!
You know what, Lars--I really like your attitude (and a few of the others' on this thread as well). Everyone is different--we all learn in different ways and all have different innate talents and abilities and levels of perserverance, etc. I love the can-do attitude.
When I was in art school I majored in Painting, and had a minor in Ceramics. No teacher said, "you should learn how to paint like a master before you start trying to work in clay." We were encouraged to try everything because school is the time to find yourself and what you love to do most. I feel I am in ITM school. In fact, college was just a microcosm of the rest of life--it's all a learning experience..Some of us are trying to seriously become the next Martin Hayes or whoever, others of us just want to rock out in our own kitchens or local session.
However, I do understand the other points of view and realize lots of practice and hard work is the road I have chosen--that's OK--I love it! As my teacher says, "It's the joourney, not the destination."
Love that, Andee -- life is indeed the time to find yourself and what you love to do most. It seems odd to think that a lot of humanity somehow believes that their real life will happen as soon as such and such is settled, or this particular situation is over and done with, or this thing has finished happening -- this IS real life, and we can make whatever we like of it.
MarkCC's comment that, if you learn a second instrument you can take things back to your first instrument is indeed my experience: my cello bowing has improved since taking up the Irish fiddle, as has coordination between fingers and bow.
Like David, I have a fairly good harmonic sense (probably arising out of several years' learning the piano as a child), but I have found this can occasionally be to my disadvantage if I'm in a workshop learning a tune and a guitarist is present (usually because there's nowhere else for him at the moment). I may have a good idea of the normal harmonic structure underlying the tune but if the guitarist goes off at a harmonic tangent with odd chords it disturbs my perception of the tune I'm trying to learn. Has anyone else experienced this situation? It doesn't seem to matter if I know the tune well and am playing it in a session - changes in harmony by guitars etc don't have that effect.
When I believe I'm sufficiently advanced both in playing the fiddle and in ITM in general I'll probably start learning the whistle (if only because it's small enough to hide in the fiddle-case!).
As lars said, bodhran gives you good lessons about rhythm.
I would not dare to take my bodhran to a session, but at home I play it often. it looks like it flexes my right hands joints .... possibly the improvements my bowing made in the last six month might have been the same just by playing fiddle every free minute. maybe the improvement comes from playin´bodhran - I really don´t know.
I have basic guitar knowledge ("campfire sing along strumming" .. know what I mean?!) and try out some chord and accompagniing stuff in standard or dadgad - just to know what I´m talking about when I discuss with my backer Dirk, what we might do with this or that....
Got a mandolin a while ago and started playing some tunes on it - picks techniques and bowing synergized each other the bad way so i left the mando alone (or just use it in some strange open tunings as a rhythm/chord backing device)
In Ireland I bought a good D low whistle. Like to play some slow airs on it, but made no progress in playing some more of the tunes, I´m able to play on the fiddle .........
Althoug I have some encounters with other instruments the fiddle really is my one and only instrument at the moment - I play it, practice and work on it, try to improve my skills, try to improve knowledge and feeling about the instrument and the musik I play with it and all that. This takes much of my free time ... as long as I didn´t win the lottery or can retire with my savings (what is about another 20 years to go) - no chance for going serious into a second instrument...
We've all heard that music is a universal language, and I like to think that it crosses instruments as well as cultures. In other words, I play *music.* It's almost secondary that I play it on fiddle, mandolin, guitar, banjo, and more recently (and with a beginner's trepidation on whistle and flute.
So lots of music theory and application tranfers from one instrument to the next. All the chordal knowledge gained from years on guitar and 5-string banjo definitely help me understand how to build melodic variations on fiddle. And knowing how to move the accent around within a banjo or guitar fingerpicking pattern made it easier to do the same with a bow. In many cases, things I've learned on a different instrument in a different genre of music have helped me tremendously in playing Irish trad music.
With less than a year now on whistle and keyless flute, I'm still acutely tuned into skills and concepts that transfer well from fiddle to whistle and flute. Right away, my right hand felt comfortable on flute because it was so similar to holding a bow. My left hand fingers also seemed at home on the holes because it just isn't that different from fingering notes on a fiddle.
But the real advantages of playing more than one instrument show up when ideas from the "new" toy transfer back to an old friend, e.g. I now find that I like to toss in short rests of the bow to mimic a flute or whistle player pausing for a breath. It can be really effective to do this the first time round in a tune (particularly when playing with a whistle or flute player), and then fill the space with sound the next time through.
And Macshoeinin is right about the true advantage of whistle and flute--either can be easily hidden in a fiddle case or coat pocket in the event the session is too miserable or too mighty to warrant joining in.
I'm getting in a little late here. I apologize if this has already been discussed. Two reasons/advantages I can think of for playing several, or, at least more than one instrument:
If you have repetitive motion problems on an instrument, it will give your hands and body a break.
If you grow tired of the sound of an instrument, it will give your ears a break.
Good point, Blowfly--repetitive motion stuff didn't even occur to me when I posted this discussion. The flip side of that would be the opportunity to strengthen different muscles with the second instrument. As for getting tired of the sound of an instrument--only if I'm playing very badly. Otherwise--I'll never tire of the sound of fiddle and harp!
I like the analogy of being in art school, Andee---except it's ITM school, where you're getting a thorough foundation into a rich musical genre---and it is MUSIC that we're playing, first and foremost. Am I correct in my understanding that your art has taken a backseat to the music in your life? I'm an artist, and find it extremely challenging to balance these two very consuming addictions. I started playign irish msuic in my 20's on mandolin, after teaching myself classical guitar in my teens, and doing the usual obligatory piano lessons as a child. What I REALLY wanted to play was fiddle, but thought it would be too difficult....but then 3 years ago (at the age of 41) realized that if I didn't start sometime soon it might be too late! Fiddle's my main instrument now, but I've also picked up 4 string tenor banjo (similar to the mandolin, but you don't have to work so hard to get some volume---what a treat!) , and just started tin whistle 2 weeks ago. I love it----it's a relief to play an instrument that sounds so beautiful, but doesn't take months to get a good sound on, like the fiddle. And, you can take it everywhere, and play a tune in almost any environment (I play it on the expressway during rush hour, and between classes when I'm teaching, and the students love it!) Every instrument gives me added insight into the music, and strengthens my fiddle playing (as long as I keep practicing the fiddle, of course!)
Regarding Macsheonin's comment about having a good harmonic sense, yes, it can be a disadvantage - in two ways. Firstly, as macsheonin says, if you have a fixed idea of the 'correct' harmonic structure of a tune, it can be frustrating or off-putting to hear an accompanist (often a very accomplished musician) playing chords which seem to push the tune in a different direction, and jar against the chords in your head. Secondly, Will mentions the advantage of having an understanding of chords in building melodic variations. I won't dispute that, as Will has been playing ITM for much longer than I have, but I have found that there are many other kinds of variation besides those based around chords and arpeggios, and it is easy to get hung up on this one kind of variation. I think one has to remember that, for the most part, harmony is merely incidental to ITM. Many great players will improvise variations which effectively modify the harmonic structure of the tune - and I think accompanists who are able to be faithful to every twist and turn are few and far between (a certain Mr. McGlynn springs to mind).
David, I agree with your caveat against getting stuck on harmonic variations. But in my early years of playing ITM I found that I was too focused on just the rolls, cut notes, and triplets. It took conscious effort to delve into rhythmic and melodic variations, but that took my playing to another level. I am careful to keep it within my understanding of what's more or less appropriate for ITM--we're talking very subtle variations, for the most part, in balance with how subtle the ornamented variations tend to be.
Just one thing really, in regards to the "before you pick up another instrument you should be able to play the first one perfectly." comment....
My flatmate and i feel (and we have had a few wines....) (and we are both male and currently pursuing females...) that you don't NEED to master #25 in the Karma Sutra before you move onto #36...... just feel comfortable with it...and when you're ready (and able) to move on....do it.
hmmmm......or maybe #25 doesn't work for you and you want to try something different... in some cases you might never have mastered it but #36 might have been really easy to *perform* so it was just as well you moved on and tried something new.....
*Grin
p.s. if you're really unhappy with #25 and #36 i'd just like to personally recommend #72.........
oh, and quick note re: last post.... #72 for all those not in the immediate possession of the latest "Karma Sutra for ITM" book, can be found in American Pie - the movie.....
You know, I'm American & haven't even seen that movie, & I know it must contain something horrible about flute players b/c everytime I mention I am one, ppl get this *smirk* on their face & say, "one time at band camp..."
Please, don't even tell me. I seriously do not want to know.
Hey Aoife, it only took you months to make the fiddle sound good? You are doing really well, then! Good for you for going for it at age 41. I just started 10 months ago at age 37. And yes, the art (painting) has taken a backseat to the music. But that's O.K. I was going through a really dry time with my art, and decided to switch gears completely to get out of my rut. So at age 32, I took up Irish harp. I haven't looked back since.
Discovering ITM was like Dorothy opening up the door to her little house when it landed in OZ--and her shades of grey, black and white world turned instantly into technicolor! I'm never going back to Kansas...
That's such a sad story about Aoife not learning the fiddle because it was too hard.
What stuff and nonsence is drilled into peoples heads
At least Aoife seems to have got over it, happy ending.
But what about all the others. I remember some lazy blighter telling me once that it took 7 years to learn to play the pipes, 7 years to practice, then another 7 playing befor ypou could play. Ooooooggghhhh that got my goat.
I think it's a great thing about ITM, that age is regarded as no obstacle. Lots of people take up an ITM instrument later in life, without being regarded as freaks or hopelessly optimistic and naive.
One of the reasons I'm bailing out of my rock band is that, in my mid-thirties, I'm preposterously old...
Obviously, we all wish we'd been playing from the age of 4, but there's no point in wishing, is there? You have to make the most of your few years on this earth...
Regarding learning the fiddle: I would dearly love to play the fiddle, and I regret not taking up violin lessons at the age of 8 or 9, when it was suggested by my school music teacher. The problem is, I am morally opposed to making a godawful racket - and I know that that is what I would be doing for at least a year, perhaps five, if I were to take up the fiddle at this point in my life (I am well past what might be termed my "formative years"). In fact, that's probably partly what put me off it as a child. Can I not be forgiven for this?
Perhaps I should wait until such time as my hearing and soundness of mind start to go.
David, I struggled with that same issue when I started to learn fiddle after playing banjo and guitar for 15 years--why subject myself and everyone within earshot to such a horrible caterwaul when I could be playing real, enjoyable music on instruments I already had skill and musicality with?
I stuck with it because fiddle absolutely called to me--it was irresistable, and I knew if I tried to ignore it, I would always regret not trying. 20 years later, I'm glad I made the leap. In those early years, I made extra effort to practice in privacy, and to pick up a different instrument when I needed a dose of confidence and a reminder that I could in fact be musical (even if the fiddle argued otherwise).
I would do it again, without hesitation. Just four notes of lift and swing and soul and pure drop fiddle sound are worth every hour of the tens of thousands of hours I scratched away at the thing. Go for it. You've got nothing to lose but your dignity (hah! just kidding!) and that negative little voice in your head....
First of all, Right On, Helen! Second of all--David, get started on the fiddle--Now. You may even be surprised how quickly you sound not-so-bad. I know I was--and I am certainly no child prodigy!!
Learning a second instrument in ITM
Learning a second instrument in ITM
Hi everyone--this is my first submitted discussion. I play (Irish) harp and about 10 months ago I took up the fiddle. something someone said to me triggered my decision (although it had been brewing in the back of mind for some time already.) He said, " to really play Irish music, you've got to play more than one intrument." (for those of you who play only one instrument--please do not get angry--I don't necessarily feel his statement is totally true, but it gave me the push to at least try to learn a second instrument.)
So--how do you feel your familiarity with how the music is played on one instrument informs your playing on the other. I assume it can work both ways--with the one you've been playing longer and the new one. Also how does your knowledge of ITM in general become more well-rounded as a result of learning two intruments.
# Posted on October 18th 2002 by Andee
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
I don't think it is "necessary" to play more than one instrument - a lot of Irish musicians do, but on the other hand, some of the greatest musicians have only ever played one instrument, Francie Donnellan, Mark Donnellan, Paddy Canny to name just a couple. However it is nice to play more than one just for the variety. I think your choice of the fiddle is a good one. You can have a close relationship with a fiddle - it is very unforgiving, answers back to you and mellows with playing (just like the wife really).
# Posted on October 18th 2002 by Bernie
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
Yes Bernie, of course I agree that it is not necessary to play more than one instrument--so many great players play only one. And the fiddle is very unforgiving, just like you said! As opposed to the harp which, is extremely forgiving! ( any wrong note you hit will not sound as bad as a wrong one on the fiddle!)
# Posted on October 18th 2002 by Andee
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
One of my friends and I are both multi-instrumentalists, it's nice when we're ceili-ing together in our kitchen and he lays down the fiddle and picks up the flute, then lays down the flute and picks up the banjo. It's not necessary, in fact, it's sometimes a hinderance -- before you pick up another instrument you have to be sure you can play your first instrument perfectly (whatever that means!!!), then and only then can you start on the second. I've found out (from experience) that taking piano lessons, learning the Highland pipes, learning the guitar, learning the fiddle, and playing the whistle can get a bit confusing, especially when it comes to fingering. People have told me I'll get it, eventually, and I think it's still coming -- but it was hard!
# Posted on October 18th 2002 by no longer exists
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
Well, Mark, I don't know if I agree with "before you pick up another instrument you should be able to play the first one perfectly." I have been playing harp for 6 years now, and have reached a level where I now take the "advanced level" workshops. But I will always be trying to improve. And I may always struggle with left hand accompainment, syncopation, and other things, too. Why should I wait to learn fiddle? (While I continue to learn harp as well) I waited way to long my whole life for too many things, due to shyness, confidence issues, etc. I am already 38. I'd like to be a competent fiddler before arthritis sets in.
Seize the day! (I wasn't sure how to spell Carpe Diem)
# Posted on October 19th 2002 by Andee
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
Some instruments are natural pairs - mandolin, or banjo is perfect for fiddlers. It helps to "see" that those half step are frets. Does anyone see these parallels in other instruments?
# Posted on October 19th 2002 by Carrmuse
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
I think playing a couple of instruments gives another insight to the tunes (I don't know about you guys but all insights are good ones to me). Just make sure you don't become one of those people who goes to a session with 5 instruments, none of which you can play well. As far as "You have to play more than one instrument to be an Irish Musician." we should all know that a general statement like that should be taken with a grain of salt IMO. Many great musicians can, but not all.
# Posted on October 19th 2002 by Mad Baloney
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
The advice about not learning a second instrument until you can play the first one if not perfectly then at least compentently is sound. It takes all your concentration and energies to learn an instrument from scratch (sorry, fiddle players!). Muddying the waters learning a second instrument simultaneously will more than double the work.
It can be helpful in a session to turn to another instrument so as to change the overall sound colour of the ensemble. And again, some tunes are more effective or easier on one instrument than on another.
When you have learnt one or more instruments reasonably well you will find that skills are often transferable at least in part to a new instrument.
m
# Posted on October 19th 2002 by lazyhound
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
Yes, I AGREE that the comment "to really play Irish music you have to play more than one instrument" is not a statement of fact. It may have even been a statement made in jest. It just made a light bulb go off over my head, that's all.
Yes, I also agree with, "be careful not to become one of those people who goes to a session with 5 instruments, and can't play any of them well." I practice my harp and my fiddle everyday. But that's enough. 95 % of my free time is spent playing, thinking about, listening to and reading about (and discussing!) ITM. And people are constantly asking me why I don't paint anymore!!
# Posted on October 19th 2002 by Andee
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
I think there is an interesting point to the idea that playing more than one instrument is beneficial to better understanding of the Irish music tradition. Since this music is played in a group, understanding the other instruments helps the player better understand the whole form, and get a more group-oriented perspective of playing. Perhaps it helps us focus more on the music itself, instead of just the instrument.
Another way of serving this same purpose is to take music lessons from someone who is playing a different instrument than the one you are playing. Shannon Heaton (the flute player) suggested that I try that when I first started playing the uilleann pipes. I have taken her suggestion, and have learned a lot from fiddle players, whistle players, box players, bodhran and of course Shannon's wonderful flute playing. I also still try to get pipe lessons of course. I think the added perspectives have helped me in many ways. Of course, actually playing these instruments could enhance the musical experience in a similar, even more beneficial way.
On the other hand, the pipes keep me plenty busy at the moment, and I'm not practicing much whistle yet. When the pipes have had more time, then maybe I'll get around to the whistle.
# Posted on October 19th 2002 by dirk
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
Dirk makes a good point about focussing on the music rather than the instrument. Being able to play one instrument excellently is far better than just stumbling through a session on 6 different instruments.
When I said "until you can play the first one perfectly (whatever that means!!!)" the part in the brackets was to emphasize that you can never be perfect.
Learning different instruments is great, though -- it helps a player realize different "sides" of the same tune, not to mention the benefits of going to a session where you normally play fiddle and the guitarist hasn't shown up -- pick up the guitar and now you're a guitarist. Pretty handy, and if you can do the "transition" (ie. if you're competent on both instruments) the crowd goes "wow!"
That's all for now -- I'm pretty talkative today.
I think you spelled Carpe Diem correctly
# Posted on October 19th 2002 by no longer exists
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
Does your knowledge of ITM in general become more well-rounded as a result of learning two intruments? --Andee
I like this question. The answer is yes! I play several instruments quite well and my knowledge and playing have gone through the roof. Playing different instruments makes you a more versatile musician in more ways than one. The biggest advantage is that you understand the music from different aspects. The different mechanics involved on each instrument gives you a whole other insight to music in general. You now understand how a box player thinks, how a flute player handles two things at once (breathing and fingering), how a picker picks and fingers, etc. I can tell you this knowledge is invaluable. If you play several instruments there is always a "wow!" factor from the crowd AND your fellow musicians. The point that a tenor banjo player can play mandolin and flute player can play whistle and vice versa is absolutely true. There is no excuse not to play those instruments which are related to your primary instrument. I would suggest that you become proficient at one instrument before taking up another. However, you may find your primary instrument may not be your best instrument. The truth is, being able to play more than one instrument makes you a more versatile session player and bandmate. It also gives you insight into the playing of music at different levels. My playing and musicianship has benefited greatly from playing different instruments.
# Posted on October 19th 2002 by SPeak
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
Completely agree & a light bulb is currently going off in my own head. I'm an average guitar & piano player but haven't played either seriously in years. When I first picked up the bodhran, I was shocked at what was considered the appropriate way to bend my wrist around to hold the tipper, & I really really stunk. If I were to pick up another ITM instrument besides flute & whistle, I was actually thinking pipes, but perhaps it would behoove me to focus on the rhythm instruments since that is where my weakness (one of them) seems to lie.
# Posted on October 19th 2002 by emily_bmore
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
A second instrument, particularly if it's very different from your first, can be an amazing learning experience. It can also be rather frustrating, but worth it.
My main experience here isn't with Irish music, but I think there's a general principle here.
I grew up playing clarinet. Playing a woodwind gives you a strong sense of scale basic playing - scales are very tactile on a woodwind. It gives you an excellent sense of melody, and how melody works.
After about 20 years of playing the clarinet, I started learning the 5-string banjo. It was incredibly different, and very difficult for me. But I learned a lot from it. A 5-string banjo is primary a chordal rythym instrument. Playing it gives you a very strong sense of where the *pulse* of a tune is, because it's your job to reinforce that. It gives you a sense of the structure or shape of the tune, because that's what determines what you're doing, chordally.
Personally, I've never been able to fully grasp chordal playing. I just can't quite wrap my head around it. But the time playing banjo gave me more understanding of it than I had, and increased my understanding of where the pulse of a tune comes from, and how to reinforce it with my playing.
These days, since I discovered Irish music again, and made the switch to tinwhistle and flute. They're not that different from clarinet; what I knew from playing the clarinet translated over well. And what I learned from the banjo has strengthened my whistle and flute playing.
So yeah... Learning a second instrument is really valuable. Even if you don't ever really get good enough to really play it seriously - you'll learn things that you'll take back to your main instrument.
# Posted on October 19th 2002 by MarkCC
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
Since my first instrument was piano, I have had, from an early age, a sense of harmony (in the musical sense of the word) instilled in me, which may seem almost superfluous to ITM. But it has undoubtedly influenced the way I hear a tune. I usually know what key or mode a tune is in by the end of the first bar - often before the accompanist has worked it out (although they may make a far better job of accompanying it than I would, once they have found the key). Nowadays, I play mainly mandolin and whistle, having learned both of them more or less simultaneously. In terms of my level of proficiency, the whistle is definitely my second instrument. However, I do find that having two completely different instruments gives two different perspectives on the music, and my playing of one influences my playing of the other.
I often go through phases of favouring one instrument or the other, during which my viewpoint on the music changes, and my playing develops. As I discover new forms of ornamentation, variations etc. on one instrument, I then find myself, almost unconsciously, transferring them onto the other instrument. In light of this, I consider my playing to be, if nothing else, well rounded.
# Posted on October 19th 2002 by ragaman
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
OK, I admit it! I am the guy who would come to the session with five instruments, not playing one of them good enough. Or in other words: I'm the guy who don't understand the question about second instrument because all my instruments are "second instruments". And it's all because it's so much fun to approach a new instrument and get some grips on how to make music from it. Maybe it's not always the smartest thing to do, but in some ways it has its obvious advantages.
For example:when I first started playing ITM it was on whistle. So many tunes seemed so strange according to the "logic" of the whistle. All these tunes became obvious later on when I picked up the mandolin (which is tuned like the fiddles). All these tunes where "fiddle-tunes".
Having picked up the bodhran has helped me play ITM in a more rythmical way also when I play melody instruments. On the other hand; my main advantage as a bodhran-player is that I'm focused on the melody. The worst bodhran-players are often drummers who think they should play as they normally play the drums.
Learning two or more instruments is of course a slower and more difficult way than to concentrate on one instrument. It will still take some years before I get good enough on one or more of my instruments. But meanwhile I'm having a great time (even though I may be a pain in the *ss fore my fellow musicians) and I think it will pay off some day!
# Posted on October 20th 2002 by lars
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
You know what, Lars--I really like your attitude (and a few of the others' on this thread as well). Everyone is different--we all learn in different ways and all have different innate talents and abilities and levels of perserverance, etc. I love the can-do attitude.
When I was in art school I majored in Painting, and had a minor in Ceramics. No teacher said, "you should learn how to paint like a master before you start trying to work in clay." We were encouraged to try everything because school is the time to find yourself and what you love to do most. I feel I am in ITM school. In fact, college was just a microcosm of the rest of life--it's all a learning experience..Some of us are trying to seriously become the next Martin Hayes or whoever, others of us just want to rock out in our own kitchens or local session.
However, I do understand the other points of view and realize lots of practice and hard work is the road I have chosen--that's OK--I love it! As my teacher says, "It's the joourney, not the destination."
# Posted on October 20th 2002 by Andee
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
Love that, Andee -- life is indeed the time to find yourself and what you love to do most. It seems odd to think that a lot of humanity somehow believes that their real life will happen as soon as such and such is settled, or this particular situation is over and done with, or this thing has finished happening -- this IS real life, and we can make whatever we like of it.
Zina
# Posted on October 20th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
MarkCC's comment that, if you learn a second instrument you can take things back to your first instrument is indeed my experience: my cello bowing has improved since taking up the Irish fiddle, as has coordination between fingers and bow.
Like David, I have a fairly good harmonic sense (probably arising out of several years' learning the piano as a child), but I have found this can occasionally be to my disadvantage if I'm in a workshop learning a tune and a guitarist is present (usually because there's nowhere else for him at the moment). I may have a good idea of the normal harmonic structure underlying the tune but if the guitarist goes off at a harmonic tangent with odd chords it disturbs my perception of the tune I'm trying to learn. Has anyone else experienced this situation? It doesn't seem to matter if I know the tune well and am playing it in a session - changes in harmony by guitars etc don't have that effect.
When I believe I'm sufficiently advanced both in playing the fiddle and in ITM in general I'll probably start learning the whistle (if only because it's small enough to hide in the fiddle-case!).
m
# Posted on October 20th 2002 by lazyhound
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
As lars said, bodhran gives you good lessons about rhythm.
I would not dare to take my bodhran to a session, but at home I play it often. it looks like it flexes my right hands joints .... possibly the improvements my bowing made in the last six month might have been the same just by playing fiddle every free minute. maybe the improvement comes from playin´bodhran - I really don´t know.
I have basic guitar knowledge ("campfire sing along strumming" .. know what I mean?!) and try out some chord and accompagniing stuff in standard or dadgad - just to know what I´m talking about when I discuss with my backer Dirk, what we might do with this or that....
Got a mandolin a while ago and started playing some tunes on it - picks techniques and bowing synergized each other the bad way so i left the mando alone (or just use it in some strange open tunings as a rhythm/chord backing device)
In Ireland I bought a good D low whistle. Like to play some slow airs on it, but made no progress in playing some more of the tunes, I´m able to play on the fiddle .........
Althoug I have some encounters with other instruments the fiddle really is my one and only instrument at the moment - I play it, practice and work on it, try to improve my skills, try to improve knowledge and feeling about the instrument and the musik I play with it and all that. This takes much of my free time ... as long as I didn´t win the lottery or can retire with my savings (what is about another 20 years to go) - no chance for going serious into a second instrument...
# Posted on October 20th 2002 by crannog
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
We've all heard that music is a universal language, and I like to think that it crosses instruments as well as cultures. In other words, I play *music.* It's almost secondary that I play it on fiddle, mandolin, guitar, banjo, and more recently (and with a beginner's trepidation
on whistle and flute.
So lots of music theory and application tranfers from one instrument to the next. All the chordal knowledge gained from years on guitar and 5-string banjo definitely help me understand how to build melodic variations on fiddle. And knowing how to move the accent around within a banjo or guitar fingerpicking pattern made it easier to do the same with a bow. In many cases, things I've learned on a different instrument in a different genre of music have helped me tremendously in playing Irish trad music.
With less than a year now on whistle and keyless flute, I'm still acutely tuned into skills and concepts that transfer well from fiddle to whistle and flute. Right away, my right hand felt comfortable on flute because it was so similar to holding a bow. My left hand fingers also seemed at home on the holes because it just isn't that different from fingering notes on a fiddle.
But the real advantages of playing more than one instrument show up when ideas from the "new" toy transfer back to an old friend, e.g. I now find that I like to toss in short rests of the bow to mimic a flute or whistle player pausing for a breath. It can be really effective to do this the first time round in a tune (particularly when playing with a whistle or flute player), and then fill the space with sound the next time through.
And Macshoeinin is right about the true advantage of whistle and flute--either can be easily hidden in a fiddle case or coat pocket in the event the session is too miserable or too mighty to warrant joining in.
# Posted on October 20th 2002 by Will CPT
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
I'm getting in a little late here. I apologize if this has already been discussed. Two reasons/advantages I can think of for playing several, or, at least more than one instrument:
If you have repetitive motion problems on an instrument, it will give your hands and body a break.
If you grow tired of the sound of an instrument, it will give your ears a break.
# Posted on October 20th 2002 by blowfly
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
Good point, Blowfly--repetitive motion stuff didn't even occur to me when I posted this discussion. The flip side of that would be the opportunity to strengthen different muscles with the second instrument. As for getting tired of the sound of an instrument--only if I'm playing very badly. Otherwise--I'll never tire of the sound of fiddle and harp!
# Posted on October 20th 2002 by Andee
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
I like the analogy of being in art school, Andee---except it's ITM school, where you're getting a thorough foundation into a rich musical genre---and it is MUSIC that we're playing, first and foremost. Am I correct in my understanding that your art has taken a backseat to the music in your life? I'm an artist, and find it extremely challenging to balance these two very consuming addictions. I started playign irish msuic in my 20's on mandolin, after teaching myself classical guitar in my teens, and doing the usual obligatory piano lessons as a child. What I REALLY wanted to play was fiddle, but thought it would be too difficult....but then 3 years ago (at the age of 41) realized that if I didn't start sometime soon it might be too late! Fiddle's my main instrument now, but I've also picked up 4 string tenor banjo (similar to the mandolin, but you don't have to work so hard to get some volume---what a treat!) , and just started tin whistle 2 weeks ago. I love it----it's a relief to play an instrument that sounds so beautiful, but doesn't take months to get a good sound on, like the fiddle. And, you can take it everywhere, and play a tune in almost any environment (I play it on the expressway during rush hour, and between classes when I'm teaching, and the students love it!) Every instrument gives me added insight into the music, and strengthens my fiddle playing (as long as I keep practicing the fiddle, of course!)
# Posted on October 21st 2002 by aoife
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
Regarding Macsheonin's comment about having a good harmonic sense, yes, it can be a disadvantage - in two ways. Firstly, as macsheonin says, if you have a fixed idea of the 'correct' harmonic structure of a tune, it can be frustrating or off-putting to hear an accompanist (often a very accomplished musician) playing chords which seem to push the tune in a different direction, and jar against the chords in your head. Secondly, Will mentions the advantage of having an understanding of chords in building melodic variations. I won't dispute that, as Will has been playing ITM for much longer than I have, but I have found that there are many other kinds of variation besides those based around chords and arpeggios, and it is easy to get hung up on this one kind of variation. I think one has to remember that, for the most part, harmony is merely incidental to ITM. Many great players will improvise variations which effectively modify the harmonic structure of the tune - and I think accompanists who are able to be faithful to every twist and turn are few and far between (a certain Mr. McGlynn springs to mind).
# Posted on October 21st 2002 by ragaman
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
David, I agree with your caveat against getting stuck on harmonic variations. But in my early years of playing ITM I found that I was too focused on just the rolls, cut notes, and triplets. It took conscious effort to delve into rhythmic and melodic variations, but that took my playing to another level. I am careful to keep it within my understanding of what's more or less appropriate for ITM--we're talking very subtle variations, for the most part, in balance with how subtle the ornamented variations tend to be.
# Posted on October 21st 2002 by Will CPT
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
RIGHT!!!! here i come, blundering in.....
Just one thing really, in regards to the "before you pick up another instrument you should be able to play the first one perfectly." comment....
My flatmate and i feel (and we have had a few wines....) (and we are both male and currently pursuing females...) that you don't NEED to master #25 in the Karma Sutra before you move onto #36...... just feel comfortable with it...and when you're ready (and able) to move on....do it.
hmmmm......or maybe #25 doesn't work for you and you want to try something different... in some cases you might never have mastered it but #36 might have been really easy to *perform* so it was just as well you moved on and tried something new.....
*Grin
p.s. if you're really unhappy with #25 and #36 i'd just like to personally recommend #72.........
# Posted on October 21st 2002 by jamiedj
oh, and quick note re: last post.... #72 for all those not in the immediate possession of the latest "Karma Sutra for ITM" book, can be found in American Pie - the movie.....
# Posted on October 21st 2002 by jamiedj
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
You know, I'm American & haven't even seen that movie, & I know it must contain something horrible about flute players b/c everytime I mention I am one, ppl get this *smirk* on their face & say, "one time at band camp..."
Please, don't even tell me. I seriously do not want to know.
# Posted on October 21st 2002 by emily_bmore
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
Hey Aoife, it only took you months to make the fiddle sound good? You are doing really well, then! Good for you for going for it at age 41. I just started 10 months ago at age 37. And yes, the art (painting) has taken a backseat to the music. But that's O.K. I was going through a really dry time with my art, and decided to switch gears completely to get out of my rut. So at age 32, I took up Irish harp. I haven't looked back since.
Discovering ITM was like Dorothy opening up the door to her little house when it landed in OZ--and her shades of grey, black and white world turned instantly into technicolor! I'm never going back to Kansas...
# Posted on October 22nd 2002 by Andee
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
Caveat - that's a posh word. I didn't know I wrote caveats. It sounds almost like caviar.
# Posted on October 22nd 2002 by ragaman
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
Caviar, cravats, and caveats, oh my!
Sorry...sometimes my workaday writing (too often done for academic types) sloshes over into real life.
# Posted on October 22nd 2002 by Will CPT
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
That's such a sad story about Aoife not learning the fiddle because it was too hard.
What stuff and nonsence is drilled into peoples heads
At least Aoife seems to have got over it, happy ending.
But what about all the others. I remember some lazy blighter telling me once that it took 7 years to learn to play the pipes, 7 years to practice, then another 7 playing befor ypou could play. Ooooooggghhhh that got my goat.
# Posted on October 23rd 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
I think it's a great thing about ITM, that age is regarded as no obstacle. Lots of people take up an ITM instrument later in life, without being regarded as freaks or hopelessly optimistic and naive.
One of the reasons I'm bailing out of my rock band is that, in my mid-thirties, I'm preposterously old...
Obviously, we all wish we'd been playing from the age of 4, but there's no point in wishing, is there? You have to make the most of your few years on this earth...
# Posted on October 23rd 2002 by Nell
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
Regarding learning the fiddle: I would dearly love to play the fiddle, and I regret not taking up violin lessons at the age of 8 or 9, when it was suggested by my school music teacher. The problem is, I am morally opposed to making a godawful racket - and I know that that is what I would be doing for at least a year, perhaps five, if I were to take up the fiddle at this point in my life (I am well past what might be termed my "formative years"). In fact, that's probably partly what put me off it as a child. Can I not be forgiven for this?
Perhaps I should wait until such time as my hearing and soundness of mind start to go.
# Posted on October 24th 2002 by ragaman
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
David, that's what alcohol is for!
# Posted on October 24th 2002 by glauber
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
David,
For christ sake get on with it. The sooner you start the sooner the god awfull racket stops.
You are resolutly not forgiven
# Posted on October 24th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
David, I struggled with that same issue when I started to learn fiddle after playing banjo and guitar for 15 years--why subject myself and everyone within earshot to such a horrible caterwaul when I could be playing real, enjoyable music on instruments I already had skill and musicality with?
I stuck with it because fiddle absolutely called to me--it was irresistable, and I knew if I tried to ignore it, I would always regret not trying. 20 years later, I'm glad I made the leap. In those early years, I made extra effort to practice in privacy, and to pick up a different instrument when I needed a dose of confidence and a reminder that I could in fact be musical (even if the fiddle argued otherwise).
I would do it again, without hesitation. Just four notes of lift and swing and soul and pure drop fiddle sound are worth every hour of the tens of thousands of hours I scratched away at the thing. Go for it. You've got nothing to lose but your dignity (hah! just kidding!) and that negative little voice in your head....
# Posted on October 24th 2002 by Will CPT
Re: Learning a second instrument in ITM
First of all, Right On, Helen! Second of all--David, get started on the fiddle--Now. You may even be surprised how quickly you sound not-so-bad. I know I was--and I am certainly no child prodigy!!
# Posted on October 24th 2002 by Andee