Hi all. Been lurking here quite a while and only recently decided to dive in. So here’s a question for you multi-instrumentalists who play fretted 4 (or 8)-string instruments tuned GDAE. How do you handle tunes that require stretches up to high B? Musical Priest, Connaughtman’s Rambles, Silver Spear, etc. Tunes where the stretch is no problem on mandolin, something of a challenge on tenor banjo, and impossibly large on bouzouki.
Do you … keep working at stretching further? Drop down an octave for those tune sections? Drop out (keep quiet) for those sections? Stick to mandolin for these tunes? Work out a countermelody (probably frowned on by many, but also seems difficult to do)? Shift up to playing the whole tune in second or third position? Switch to playing chords on those tunes?
Just curious about what other folks do, thanks for your thoughts.
Depends on the tune, and the scale of your instrument. I play fiddle and am gradually moving most of my tunes over to tenor banjo. I play a short scale 17 fret banjo. For some tunes, it's just a stretch or a quick jump to reach the high b, while on others I shift to second position. Some tunes really come easily in second position--the B parts to Sligo Maid and Killavil Fancy come to mind. On a few tunes I play an octave lower, but generally as a variation.
Agree with whoosis. I think this is how most players do. It need some seperate practice to play in the second position if you have learned the tune in the first position before on mandolin or fiddle. I've seen players with "big hands" playing a high b "jump" with no problems, but to me this is impossible. I think I play more in second position and use less time jumping to the high b than most players I've seen.
Reaching the high b is included in any book or dvd lesson for banjo. Gerry O'Connor have made two dvd lessons, one instruction book/cd and one cd-rom tutorial with mad for trad or the tenor banjo.
I develop a strategy that involves changing positions during the tune using open string notes to make that change. For a high B, that would involve changing to 4th, 5th or 6th position for that part of the tune, depending on what notes are in that part of the tune and how I want to finger it. Also, some tunes with lots of high notes or inconvenient fingering in general can be more easily played by capoing at fret 2, 5 or 7. I just experiment with each tune to see what works best.
I find that the tunes I like, and am most prone to start in a session, generally are the ones that don't include that high B. Never mind the fingering, its those whistles on that high B that I don't like.
I don't really have a problem when it's a simple jump to the high B. I can play it fairly ok and if I need to roll a high B (like in Sailor's Bonnet or Fred Finn's) then I can generally manage that too. But it's flicking from a high B down to an A then G and straight back to a B that I have problems with (Musical Priest, Sporting Paddy). Mind you, I havn't come across many tunes that needed that done so it's just a bit of practice needed. I've been told I have HUGE hands so that's an advantage anyway.
Yer've got a damn long pinkie, Mac.
I'm still learning some tunes that need that high B, and the only way on the 'zouk is to move your hand, you simply haven't got that stretch, unless you're Paganinni, who actually suffered from a medical condition that gave him impossibly long fingers, and he was ONLY a fiddle-player after all.
I'm getting better at managing a flawless jump ( ie, the note is actually clearly fretted and rings out ) while reading a tune, but I haven't the courage to take them out in public yet, it'll be better when I know them by heart and am not still reading them.
You can try shifting the position of your thumb on the back of the neck. I find on a 23" banjo I can keep my index finger on the second fret and hit the seventh with my pinky if I'm supporting the neck with the tip of my thumb (or for a quick note you don't really need any support and can let go of the back of the neck altogether). I shift positions quite a lot too and hit the B with my third or even my second finger. Sometimes a triplet will cover the missing B. If I'm using the B a lot in a passage (second part of "Calliope House" in E for example) I stay in a higher position and hit the adjacent notes on neighboring strings.
But the more you play the stronger your hand will become and the more you will be able to stretch too.
I totally agree with Rob Zouk. It's so much easier if you just use the whole neck and switch positions. Sure you can get stronger hand and learn to stretch as dwdeacon suggests, but I think it's an even better idea to learn more of the fret board. You'd be amazed at how much easier it can be to play a once you tinker with different positions, a challenging note group can be a real breeze in the right position.
I do a combination of stretching and switching positions. I play several different instruments of varying scales, from mandolin to 19 fret tenor banjo, to a fairly long scale Fletcher Brock 5 course 'zouk. I play in both "fiddle" fingering and "viola" fingering, and I've found over time that it helps to get comfortable moving your hand.
To start with, I used to only move into second position at pre-determined times during a tune. But as I have matured a bit on the instruments, I've found that it is useful to relax and get comfortable moving my hand up to pick up higher notes at any given time.
There are times that I will do the full stretch (even on the long scale bouzouki), but it's usually if I am having to bounce back and forth between the F# and the B. (An example of that might be the tune Christmas Eve). I am somewhat blessed with large hands, however.
I do play with a Zouk/banjo player who is a fantastic player, and he basically floats his hand and moves up or down the neck for pretty much every single note, which I find amazing.
My advice is to not think of any particular way of doing it as "THE way"... and get comfortable finding what works best for each tune.
learning tunes in F and Bb on banjo helped me to stretch the gap between first and second fingers - making the fourth finger stretch a little easier for top B. Playing B/C box (at least the way I play it, right-handed with three fingers only) requires a lot of mobility in my right hand - also useful in the context of stringed instruments, as I play banjo left-handed and my right hand does the fretting. Despite all this, top B is still a challenge on banjo in B-A-G-F#-E runs.
I don't know about banjo- but speaking as a Classically trained violinist EXPANDED to Celtic fiddle playing, If one looks at the NOTES (AKA "black dots") ahead of time, one works out a plan for a convenient position shift. I know thats not easy to see coming if you're not reading the notes, and certainly not if you're learning entirely by ear. But even then, with help from a good coach, you can find and teach yourself a position switch.
HOWEVER- re-reading your question, a Bnatural on the E string is NOT out of 1st position range, although it is the last note possible in 1st postion on the E string. In the interests of some good-natured teasing, let me note that frets may be the major cause of your problem there. Without frets, a good player just eventually learns to play in every key ( OKAY after some 39 years on violin/fiddle, I still hate playing -especially improvising- in more than 3 flats or sharps). But I can do it.
How Do You Get to That High B?
How Do You Get to That High B?
Hi all. Been lurking here quite a while and only recently decided to dive in. So here’s a question for you multi-instrumentalists who play fretted 4 (or 8)-string instruments tuned GDAE. How do you handle tunes that require stretches up to high B? Musical Priest, Connaughtman’s Rambles, Silver Spear, etc. Tunes where the stretch is no problem on mandolin, something of a challenge on tenor banjo, and impossibly large on bouzouki.
Do you … keep working at stretching further? Drop down an octave for those tune sections? Drop out (keep quiet) for those sections? Stick to mandolin for these tunes? Work out a countermelody (probably frowned on by many, but also seems difficult to do)? Shift up to playing the whole tune in second or third position? Switch to playing chords on those tunes?
Just curious about what other folks do, thanks for your thoughts.
# Posted on May 3rd 2006 by poor scholar
Re: How Do You Get to That High B?
Depends on the tune, and the scale of your instrument. I play fiddle and am gradually moving most of my tunes over to tenor banjo. I play a short scale 17 fret banjo. For some tunes, it's just a stretch or a quick jump to reach the high b, while on others I shift to second position. Some tunes really come easily in second position--the B parts to Sligo Maid and Killavil Fancy come to mind. On a few tunes I play an octave lower, but generally as a variation.
# Posted on May 3rd 2006 by Will CPT
Re: How Do You Get to That High B?
Agree with whoosis. I think this is how most players do. It need some seperate practice to play in the second position if you have learned the tune in the first position before on mandolin or fiddle. I've seen players with "big hands" playing a high b "jump" with no problems, but to me this is impossible. I think I play more in second position and use less time jumping to the high b than most players I've seen.
Reaching the high b is included in any book or dvd lesson for banjo. Gerry O'Connor have made two dvd lessons, one instruction book/cd and one cd-rom tutorial with mad for trad or the tenor banjo.
# Posted on May 3rd 2006 by TradLad
Re: How Do You Get to That High B?
I develop a strategy that involves changing positions during the tune using open string notes to make that change. For a high B, that would involve changing to 4th, 5th or 6th position for that part of the tune, depending on what notes are in that part of the tune and how I want to finger it. Also, some tunes with lots of high notes or inconvenient fingering in general can be more easily played by capoing at fret 2, 5 or 7. I just experiment with each tune to see what works best.
# Posted on May 3rd 2006 by rob zouk
Re: How Do You Get to That High B?
BTW, in my case I tune GDAD.
# Posted on May 3rd 2006 by rob zouk
Re: How Do You Get to That High B?
I find that the tunes I like, and am most prone to start in a session, generally are the ones that don't include that high B. Never mind the fingering, its those whistles on that high B that I don't like.
# Posted on May 3rd 2006 by AlBrown
Re: How Do You Get to That High B?
I don't really have a problem when it's a simple jump to the high B. I can play it fairly ok and if I need to roll a high B (like in Sailor's Bonnet or Fred Finn's) then I can generally manage that too. But it's flicking from a high B down to an A then G and straight back to a B that I have problems with (Musical Priest, Sporting Paddy). Mind you, I havn't come across many tunes that needed that done so it's just a bit of practice needed. I've been told I have HUGE hands so that's an advantage anyway.
# Posted on May 3rd 2006 by PaddyCmusic
Re: How Do You Get to That High B?
use yer pinky
# Posted on May 3rd 2006 by Ripthecalico
Re: How Do You Get to That High B?
Yer've got a damn long pinkie, Mac.
I'm still learning some tunes that need that high B, and the only way on the 'zouk is to move your hand, you simply haven't got that stretch, unless you're Paganinni, who actually suffered from a medical condition that gave him impossibly long fingers, and he was ONLY a fiddle-player after all.
I'm getting better at managing a flawless jump ( ie, the note is actually clearly fretted and rings out ) while reading a tune, but I haven't the courage to take them out in public yet, it'll be better when I know them by heart and am not still reading them.
# Posted on May 3rd 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: How Do You Get to That High B?
You can try shifting the position of your thumb on the back of the neck. I find on a 23" banjo I can keep my index finger on the second fret and hit the seventh with my pinky if I'm supporting the neck with the tip of my thumb (or for a quick note you don't really need any support and can let go of the back of the neck altogether). I shift positions quite a lot too and hit the B with my third or even my second finger. Sometimes a triplet will cover the missing B. If I'm using the B a lot in a passage (second part of "Calliope House" in E for example) I stay in a higher position and hit the adjacent notes on neighboring strings.
But the more you play the stronger your hand will become and the more you will be able to stretch too.
# Posted on May 4th 2006 by dwdeacon
Re: How Do You Get to That High B?
PS
I totally agree with Rob Zouk. It's so much easier if you just use the whole neck and switch positions. Sure you can get stronger hand and learn to stretch as dwdeacon suggests, but I think it's an even better idea to learn more of the fret board. You'd be amazed at how much easier it can be to play a once you tinker with different positions, a challenging note group can be a real breeze in the right position.
# Posted on May 4th 2006 by Chef Paul
Re: How Do You Get to That High B?
I do a combination of stretching and switching positions. I play several different instruments of varying scales, from mandolin to 19 fret tenor banjo, to a fairly long scale Fletcher Brock 5 course 'zouk. I play in both "fiddle" fingering and "viola" fingering, and I've found over time that it helps to get comfortable moving your hand.
To start with, I used to only move into second position at pre-determined times during a tune. But as I have matured a bit on the instruments, I've found that it is useful to relax and get comfortable moving my hand up to pick up higher notes at any given time.
There are times that I will do the full stretch (even on the long scale bouzouki), but it's usually if I am having to bounce back and forth between the F# and the B. (An example of that might be the tune Christmas Eve). I am somewhat blessed with large hands, however.
I do play with a Zouk/banjo player who is a fantastic player, and he basically floats his hand and moves up or down the neck for pretty much every single note, which I find amazing.
My advice is to not think of any particular way of doing it as "THE way"... and get comfortable finding what works best for each tune.
Pete
# Posted on May 4th 2006 by Reverend
Re: How Do You Get to That High B?
learning tunes in F and Bb on banjo helped me to stretch the gap between first and second fingers - making the fourth finger stretch a little easier for top B. Playing B/C box (at least the way I play it, right-handed with three fingers only) requires a lot of mobility in my right hand - also useful in the context of stringed instruments, as I play banjo left-handed and my right hand does the fretting. Despite all this, top B is still a challenge on banjo in B-A-G-F#-E runs.
# Posted on May 4th 2006 by millionyears_bc
Re: How Do You Get to That High B?
I don't know about banjo- but speaking as a Classically trained violinist EXPANDED to Celtic fiddle playing, If one looks at the NOTES (AKA "black dots") ahead of time, one works out a plan for a convenient position shift. I know thats not easy to see coming if you're not reading the notes, and certainly not if you're learning entirely by ear. But even then, with help from a good coach, you can find and teach yourself a position switch.
HOWEVER- re-reading your question, a Bnatural on the E string is NOT out of 1st position range, although it is the last note possible in 1st postion on the E string. In the interests of some good-natured teasing, let me note that frets may be the major cause of your problem there. Without frets, a good player just eventually learns to play in every key ( OKAY after some 39 years on violin/fiddle, I still hate playing -especially improvising- in more than 3 flats or sharps). But I can do it.
There's My 2 cents.
Norma
# Posted on May 6th 2006 by maestramusica
Re: How Do You Get to That High B?
my personal favourite keys (within this field) are F major and B minor
# Posted on May 6th 2006 by lisaniska
Re: How Do You Get to That High B?
I tend to avoid that octave, simply because is aggravates tendonitis and I end up not being about to play for a month while it settles down again.
# Posted on May 10th 2006 by Joze