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C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
Try not to slag off on me too bad as I know the question is rather set up for it... however, I am soon to take deliver of a Saltarelle box after getting bitten by the free reed box and any general advice starting out would be appreciated. Just for context, I have been playing the uilleann pipes for a decade, and ran the Florida Tionol until it became the SE Tionol... so i have been around the music all my life and have played for a while, but the misadventures into box-land is new so helpful hints (i.e. don't use your pinky) to help me out until I get to the Catskills this summer would be gladly returned in kind.
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
I presume you can read music, maze?
Find out where your c# and f# are - the quickest way to recognise which key you're in. It works for at least 80% of the diddley.
Look for a couple of standard runs which tell you where the tune is on the scale. I can recognise the change from G to top A (it's the change of direction when going up from an e-f-g push to an a-b pull. There's another one an octave lower that's almost as easy to hear. I find this is the easiest way to get in to a tune I've never played before. Remember I'm playing BC, so the changes will be different on a C#/D.
Oh, and welcome to one of the most frustrating and hence most enjoyable instruments you could have chosen. Having said that - you chose the uilleann pipes to start with. Looks like there may be a pattern emerging...
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
There was a fairly recent thread on pinky use. If I recall correctly, it wasn't specific to C#/D. And it was more like "try to reduce your reliance on the pinky." I'm not sure a single reason was agreed up. Some ideas were:
(a) the other fingers are stronger and more dexterous,
(b) learning to finger a tune with fewer fingers builds mobility and the ability to solve fingering problems,
(c) it frees the pinky up to use for ornaments if it's not being relied on for the melody note.
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
Maze,
I also switched from pipes to box about 10 years ago, first on B/C then later to C#/D.
I didn't use my pinky finger all that much on B/C, but I use it all the time on D box. It's very useful to do that, and I know I'm coming to the discussion late but the idea that NOT using the 4th finger helps solve fingering problems seems WAY off base--maybe that was a joke.
I'm thinking of tunes where you're all over the place on the D row, Ferral O'Gara, Willie Coleman's, etc., where you have to go up and pop a high B and then be back down to the low D in short order. That kind of thing happens all the time, and it's pretty common to use the little finger where the ring finger was a moment ago to be able to progress down to the lower notes. You have to shift -somewhere-, and that's one of the smoother ways to do it- especially if you want to do a roll on that low not when you get there and you need to end up with your middle finger on that button.
This is making it all sound more complicated than it is, but D box generally doesn't give you much reason to slide to the outside row, which means you're playing more in a straight line many times- and if you don't use that 4th finger you're making it harder on yourself. Try playing the B part of Fintan McManus' (some call it Tommy People's reel, Bm, great tune) with just 3 fingers and you'll see what I mean.
It's also helpful to be able to play rolls based off the ring finger (I'm not all that good at that, usually just move up to where the middle finger is in that position), but if you can do that you have use that 4th finger.
It's too bad there's not any good C#/D video tutorial out there,
it would be a great help to many players.
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
That was what I was thinking. I'm not really playing C#/D yet, but I've been working on a lot of one-row tunes on our C/G box, and it's pretty common to find nice stretches of tune where you never have to move your hand at all if you use your pinky, and would have to move it all over the place if you didn't.
It seems to me that the ability to play a full octave without moving your hand at all is a strength of the system...
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
I think the point of trying to avoid using the pinky is to have it available for those situations Rick describes - when you really need it. If you rely on it too heavily, you can paint yourself into a corner.
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
Yep, I think you're on the right track.
Just a few minutes ago I got the box out and ran over a couple of tunes-- turns out that Fintan MacManus' is not a good example after all, you -can- get by OK alternating the ring finger back and forth, though it's easier to just leave your hand in position and use the 4th finger.
Providence Reel is a better example.
Bear in mind also that Saltarelles take a while to break in, but that's not a big deal when you're first starting out. I play a C#/D Bouebe now and it's just starting to feel broken in to me after 10 months. If you're learning while the instrument is new you probably won't notice the difference. I should never have sold my B/C Bouebe, that thing was the Bomb!
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
Great help so far folks! Keep it coming. Rick, I hope I am not "switching" per se, but "adding".... was it so great a change that you bagged the pipes altogether (ew, that was bad!)...
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
Last year at East Durham, Billy McComiskey gave us a fingering for Trip to Durrow (in D on B/C) that only used the pinky five times (not counting repeats). If I had worked it out myself, I probably would have used it a dozen times.
I think the point is that using the pinky is rarely the right choice except on the top note of a phrase, so it's very important to internalize in your mind and your fingers ways of avoiding its use.
We tend to take the easy way out, but it would be good (at least when practicing) to work on the harder things, like changing hand positions. An exercise that I try once in a blue moon is to play tunes using only one or two fingers. Or play tunes in octaves (doubling each note an octave above or below). It seems to help with dexterity and accuracy in getting around the keys.
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
Oops, hit that Post button too soon..
At East Durham last summer there were no such admonitions in Jackie Daly's class. Two different instruments, two -very- different approaches to the music.
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
I've not long been playing a BC box and had a tip from a friend that I needed to use my pinky a whole lot more - particularly to get the top notes in the phrase (as has already been mentioned in the thread). I was using almost exclusively just the three larger fingers and after a bit of adjustment of how I approach the tune, I find using my pinky really has simplified my playing. I move my whole hand rather than tangling my fingers to get around the notes of a phrase.
Maze, it's my contention that any half-step diatonic box is a weird little hybrid of an animal and chances are that, coming to it from another instrument, as I did, you'll find its many foibles exasperating for the first little while. (Then you succumb, or your brain gets rewired, and you start having more fun.)
Why did I say B/C is _more_ twisted than C#/D? Just having a bit of fun. I read that Brendan Mulkere once said that to play the B/C box required a "brain transplant". Imagine having a set of pipes in D and then playing most of your tunes in E major on them... (OK the analogy won't take you very far but it's a hint.)
For a simpleton like me, who likes to interiorize tunes with the D string of a fiddle or bottom note of a whistle as a jumping-off point, or foundation stone, or whatever you please, a C#/D requires only a lobotomy rather than a total brain transplant.
Rick: things are very fine hereabouts - how are they in the parched and dusty deep south?
I posted the above earlier and it vanished. Curiouser, after re-submitting it I notice that Rick's post asking me how things were in the cool blue north has also disappeared...
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
Ah now I understand. I was looking at the wrong thread. I do need a brain transplant after all! Jeremy feel free to delete the last three posts by me in this one. Sorry everyone.
S
C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
Try not to slag off on me too bad as I know the question is rather set up for it... however, I am soon to take deliver of a Saltarelle box after getting bitten by the free reed box and any general advice starting out would be appreciated. Just for context, I have been playing the uilleann pipes for a decade, and ran the Florida Tionol until it became the SE Tionol... so i have been around the music all my life and have played for a while, but the misadventures into box-land is new so helpful hints (i.e. don't use your pinky) to help me out until I get to the Catskills this summer would be gladly returned in kind.
Cheers,
maze
# Posted on April 15th 2006 by maze
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
I presume you can read music, maze?
Find out where your c# and f# are - the quickest way to recognise which key you're in. It works for at least 80% of the diddley.
Look for a couple of standard runs which tell you where the tune is on the scale. I can recognise the change from G to top A (it's the change of direction when going up from an e-f-g push to an a-b pull. There's another one an octave lower that's almost as easy to hear. I find this is the easiest way to get in to a tune I've never played before. Remember I'm playing BC, so the changes will be different on a C#/D.
Oh, and welcome to one of the most frustrating and hence most enjoyable instruments you could have chosen. Having said that - you chose the uilleann pipes to start with. Looks like there may be a pattern emerging...
Eno
# Posted on April 15th 2006 by bc_box_player
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
Is "don't use your pinky" actual C#/D advice from someone?!
# Posted on April 15th 2006 by Sol Foster
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
There was a fairly recent thread on pinky use. If I recall correctly, it wasn't specific to C#/D. And it was more like "try to reduce your reliance on the pinky." I'm not sure a single reason was agreed up. Some ideas were:
(a) the other fingers are stronger and more dexterous,
(b) learning to finger a tune with fewer fingers builds mobility and the ability to solve fingering problems,
(c) it frees the pinky up to use for ornaments if it's not being relied on for the melody note.
# Posted on April 15th 2006 by GaryAMartin
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
Maze,
I also switched from pipes to box about 10 years ago, first on B/C then later to C#/D.
I didn't use my pinky finger all that much on B/C, but I use it all the time on D box. It's very useful to do that, and I know I'm coming to the discussion late but the idea that NOT using the 4th finger helps solve fingering problems seems WAY off base--maybe that was a joke.
I'm thinking of tunes where you're all over the place on the D row, Ferral O'Gara, Willie Coleman's, etc., where you have to go up and pop a high B and then be back down to the low D in short order. That kind of thing happens all the time, and it's pretty common to use the little finger where the ring finger was a moment ago to be able to progress down to the lower notes. You have to shift -somewhere-, and that's one of the smoother ways to do it- especially if you want to do a roll on that low not when you get there and you need to end up with your middle finger on that button.
This is making it all sound more complicated than it is, but D box generally doesn't give you much reason to slide to the outside row, which means you're playing more in a straight line many times- and if you don't use that 4th finger you're making it harder on yourself. Try playing the B part of Fintan McManus' (some call it Tommy People's reel, Bm, great tune) with just 3 fingers and you'll see what I mean.
It's also helpful to be able to play rolls based off the ring finger (I'm not all that good at that, usually just move up to where the middle finger is in that position), but if you can do that you have use that 4th finger.
It's too bad there's not any good C#/D video tutorial out there,
it would be a great help to many players.
Rick
# Posted on April 15th 2006 by Rick C.
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
That was what I was thinking. I'm not really playing C#/D yet, but I've been working on a lot of one-row tunes on our C/G box, and it's pretty common to find nice stretches of tune where you never have to move your hand at all if you use your pinky, and would have to move it all over the place if you didn't.
It seems to me that the ability to play a full octave without moving your hand at all is a strength of the system...
# Posted on April 15th 2006 by Sol Foster
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
I think the point of trying to avoid using the pinky is to have it available for those situations Rick describes - when you really need it. If you rely on it too heavily, you can paint yourself into a corner.
# Posted on April 15th 2006 by GaryAMartin
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
Yep, I think you're on the right track.
Just a few minutes ago I got the box out and ran over a couple of tunes-- turns out that Fintan MacManus' is not a good example after all, you -can- get by OK alternating the ring finger back and forth, though it's easier to just leave your hand in position and use the 4th finger.
Providence Reel is a better example.
Bear in mind also that Saltarelles take a while to break in, but that's not a big deal when you're first starting out. I play a C#/D Bouebe now and it's just starting to feel broken in to me after 10 months. If you're learning while the instrument is new you probably won't notice the difference. I should never have sold my B/C Bouebe, that thing was the Bomb!
Rick
# Posted on April 15th 2006 by Rick C.
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
Great help so far folks! Keep it coming. Rick, I hope I am not "switching" per se, but "adding".... was it so great a change that you bagged the pipes altogether (ew, that was bad!)...
# Posted on April 15th 2006 by maze
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
One place where I definately use the pinky is the A part of the Moving Cloud:
| cEGc Bdgb | aged BAGE |
I use pinky for top b.
One place where I used to use pinky but discovered it was much easier without it is in Harvest Home, the triplet-ey bit.
| (3efe (3dcB | (3ABA (3GFE |
Played m = middle i =index r = ring
mrm mim mrm mim
# Posted on April 16th 2006 by kjay_bc_box
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
Last year at East Durham, Billy McComiskey gave us a fingering for Trip to Durrow (in D on B/C) that only used the pinky five times (not counting repeats). If I had worked it out myself, I probably would have used it a dozen times.
I think the point is that using the pinky is rarely the right choice except on the top note of a phrase, so it's very important to internalize in your mind and your fingers ways of avoiding its use.
We tend to take the easy way out, but it would be good (at least when practicing) to work on the harder things, like changing hand positions. An exercise that I try once in a blue moon is to play tunes using only one or two fingers. Or play tunes in octaves (doubling each note an octave above or below). It seems to help with dexterity and accuracy in getting around the keys.
# Posted on April 16th 2006 by GaryAMartin
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
Fair enough, but D box is a different animal. Much more straight-line playing, much less torquing the right hand around.
# Posted on April 16th 2006 by Rick C.
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
Oops, hit that Post button too soon..
At East Durham last summer there were no such admonitions in Jackie Daly's class. Two different instruments, two -very- different approaches to the music.
Rick
# Posted on April 16th 2006 by Rick C.
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
I've not long been playing a BC box and had a tip from a friend that I needed to use my pinky a whole lot more - particularly to get the top notes in the phrase (as has already been mentioned in the thread). I was using almost exclusively just the three larger fingers and after a bit of adjustment of how I approach the tune, I find using my pinky really has simplified my playing. I move my whole hand rather than tangling my fingers to get around the notes of a phrase.
# Posted on April 17th 2006 by Brown Creeper
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
my words of c#/d advice, not necessarily in this order:
joe cooley
tony macmahon
jackie daly
andrew macnamara
charlie piggott
peter carberry
conor keane
the first two play d/d#, but it's the same deal, essentially.....
# Posted on April 18th 2006 by ceemonster
Re: Twisted
Maze, it's my contention that any half-step diatonic box is a weird little hybrid of an animal and chances are that, coming to it from another instrument, as I did, you'll find its many foibles exasperating for the first little while. (Then you succumb, or your brain gets rewired, and you start having more fun.)
Why did I say B/C is _more_ twisted than C#/D? Just having a bit of fun. I read that Brendan Mulkere once said that to play the B/C box required a "brain transplant". Imagine having a set of pipes in D and then playing most of your tunes in E major on them... (OK the analogy won't take you very far but it's a hint.)
For a simpleton like me, who likes to interiorize tunes with the D string of a fiddle or bottom note of a whistle as a jumping-off point, or foundation stone, or whatever you please, a C#/D requires only a lobotomy rather than a total brain transplant.
Rick: things are very fine hereabouts - how are they in the parched and dusty deep south?
Steve
# Posted on April 18th 2006 by Jeeves Tones
'Sfunny...
I posted the above earlier and it vanished. Curiouser, after re-submitting it I notice that Rick's post asking me how things were in the cool blue north has also disappeared...
# Posted on April 18th 2006 by Jeeves Tones
Re: C#/D general advice for a beginner boxer, but seasoned piper
Ah now I understand. I was looking at the wrong thread. I do need a brain transplant after all! Jeremy feel free to delete the last three posts by me in this one. Sorry everyone.
S
# Posted on April 18th 2006 by Jeeves Tones