I'm not a pimp; just looking for a medium through whom I can express my session bitches, of which there are many. For example:
Why are there so many people in sessions who have clearly played for years and years but never seem to improve, and play everything as if they are squeezing it painfullly for the first time through their constipated ass?
Why is the person who has the most expensive instruments, who arrives first and lays them out carefully, the one without a note in his head?
Why do people insist on accelerating the pace of their 'showstopper' tunes, until they themselves can't keep up with the tempo, and vomit out a blur of vaguely relevant notes?
Why do guests assume that if they are tolerated to sing one song , they can segue straight into six more?
I need somebody who can sit in on my local session and voice what I think. I am too old and too tactful to do it myself.
Any volunteers?
We have this lovely fiddler that shows up to our sessions -- sometimes she's the only woman there. One night when she showed up I thanked her for coming and told her that were it not for her, people looking at us might think it's a session for ugly gay guys. She looked astonished and said, "Oh great... now everyone's going to think you guys are my bitches."
I'm limiting myself to two, I don't wan't to whine, I realize that there are a lot of different kinds of people in the world wired a lot different than myself, but three things make me really struggle to be nice.
1) Non-Trad instrumenets. Especially if they are played in non trad way's. Steel mandolins strummed blue grass style, makes me cringe, piano accordians playing polka's and waltzes, ugh!
Join a Polish polka session or something please! Are we the only game in town? Isn't there a bluegrass scene or jazz club or somwhere you could take your zither, 5-stringer and "walking" bass lines. Jeesh!!
2) I REALLY and TRULY love the bodrahn, I play the bodran, I love the sound of a nicely played bodran. Why then do I rarely hear anyone playing the thing with any finesse? Why do the worst players insist on drinking so much and sounding even worse?
There are several sessions in this town. Most are super elite. Either you have to be invited, or you dare not start a tune unless you are one of the elite, or you are told by the "leader" what tune to play next. And most of the sessions are super fast. At the other end there is a 'mostly sloppy' session. Occasionally we play together, but more often everything seems out of sync, or everyone plays as loud as they can, not listening to anyone else.
I'm an intermediate level player (whatever that means). I've been playing sessions for about five years now and beginning to get a repertoire of tunes down, and can play at a resonable speed. I'd just like to find a middle ground where I can learn from more advanced players and improve my session skills. Continuing to play in a sloppy session just doesn't seem to do it.
I know, just start my own session. But that's easier said than done. I'd really like to get toegther with some more advanced players in a friendly session. But the advanced players seem to want to only play with other advanced players.
I've been to quite a few sessions in Ireland where I've been very welcomed, asked to start tunes, and most of the other players are very good. It's been a pleasure to play with them. But in this country, it dosen't seem to be this way, or at least in this town.
Stewart: In order to protect the innocent, I'll not mention any names, but I've a young friend who moved to Seattle and found your situation to be true. He's a very good musician, but after attending a few of the Seattle sessions, decided he'd be better off by himself. A real pity that you and the likes of him can't get together and make a good session happen there. I am very lucky to live in a town where sessions of many genre can be found, (the Irish is especially grand) and none that I know of, have the problems that Seattle has, or SF or LA for that matter. I'd invite you to move here, but if I told you where, 'twould give away all. I know you'd be welcome, as in Ireland. As for my "session bitch", if the whistle player from Wales starts "The Irish Washerwoman" again, I'll break his fecking whistle into five pieces!
I used to bitch about sessions quite a bit, but then I realized that it's just a case of different strokes for different folks. I have attended several sessions around my area of the U.S., and found that they all have their good and bad points:
Beginner session: lots of players, leader is not overly qualified, tune list includes many non-standards, and they use sheet music--but it is a very sociable, supportive session for newbies. Lots of songs (what can I say, I'm a tune kind of guy). But I'm too soft-hearted to bitch about it. It's the only regular session in that town, and I like to think it will evolve into a higher-quality session as it develops.
Beginner/Intermediate session: usually lots of players, almost leaderless, a go-round-the-circle, everybody-gets-a-chance type of thing, which results in mixed quality. Some songs. A strong core of dedicated regulars, though, and a lot of session standards (a la the Tunebook listing here), as well as some nice non-Irish trad music. Although I confess I have bitched about a certain piano accordion making everything sound like a polka... but the guys knows a lot more tunes than I do, so I mostly keep it to myself.
Intermediate/advanced session: small, round-the-circle, but dedicated players and lots of session standards. No bitches, really, except that it isn't closer to my home.
I have been to four sessions I'd call "advanced."
One has a reputation for being very strict and super-fast. The leader calls all tunes, and songs appear only rarely, by the exceptionally qualified. Sometimes co-led by famous players.
Another tends to be fast (was a closed, super-fast session, now a bit more open), no songs, leader doesn't call all the tunes because there are several other very experienced players who are quick to pitch in.
The third has a strong leader who calls most tunes (regulars ask by playing a few notes and looking for his nod). Strictly trad. Sometimes attended/co-led by famous players. Recordings I made at that session in 2000-2001 got me started.
The fourth session I attended only once, some time ago, and I confess I bitched about it because of the strong leader. But I now realize that it was similar to session #3, and the tape I made there has also helped me become a better player. I really ought to go back and give it another try, if it's still there.
Sure, we all enjoy a good screed sometimes. But if you think about it, time spent bitching is time that could be spent on becoming a better player. And sessions are so fragile, anyway--it's kind of a miracle that anybody manages to find a welcoming venue, and dedicated regulars, and keeps it going.
So I guess I'm bitching about bitching. (How's that for a Zen koan?)
"or you are told by the "leader" what tune to play next"
Stewart... are you sure about this. I've been to a fair amount of sessions, and I know most of the players in these high-end sessions around Seattle. I'm sure that they will invite visitors to start a tune now and then, but I've never heard of a session host anywhere telling the person what tune to play when they ask someone to start a tune.
"The third has a strong leader who calls most tunes (regulars ask by playing a few notes and looking for his nod)."
Ahhhh... the "snippet" method. I like this approach. It doesn't necessarily have to be with one leader, sometimes it's a quorum of hosts, but the communicate what to play next using this method. Everyone knows what tune's next, and you can make the switch together... s'fun. I also think it's a matter of having good manners to acknowledge the host(s) this way.
Other reasons the snippet method is useful:
You can be sure you won't be playing solo.
You don't have to know or agree on what the names are.
If you came late you'll find out if the tune has already been played. (Better than starting it and wondering why no one else joins in, or if they do join in -- they're reluctant, or hearing someone whine about it while you're playing.)
Back-up players will know the key changes.
Cuts down on the random noodling between tunes because people want to hear the snippet.
I think it is part of the human condition to complain about things that are pretty good; we have had described here sessions where you can learn and/or play as you are learning up to sessions where the discipline is so tight as to stretch your skills to the limit.
Isn't that what we all need ?
But there doesn't seem to be any middle ground. Either stay with the sloppy session or somehow jump ahead to where you are accepted as one of the elite. Why the hierarchy of sessions? The rich don't seem to want to associate with the poor.
I have played with some very good players in Ireland and was in fact welcomed and invited to lead tunes. There didn't seem to be any big divide. It was just enjoyment of the music and the craic.
So go to the elite sessions and listen. I know you want to play with them but the more you hear the tunes they are playing and at the speed that they are playing them out the quicker you'll be able to pick up the tunes.
Take a tape recorder and see if they mind you taping the session. That'll probably wind up with them asking you about what you play.
They'll probably be appreciative when they realize that you want to learn but that you don't want to slow their session down.
The majority of folk/trad musicians that I know are really nice people who love to help others along but they don't always want their release (in this case an elite session) to become a time when they have to coax a lower player along.
So go listen and record them (as long as they don't mind) and pick a tune that you hear to learn and work on it until you can play it. Then go and listen and record and play that tune when it comes around.
Don't noodle and don't expect them to lower their standards. For that matter why should they invite you to start a tune if they don't know if you can even play? They might have dealt with people hijacking their session in the past and so they don't want to let people they don't know start tunes. The best thing to do is go and get to know them. Show an educated interest in what they are doing and consider approaching someone who plays your instrument and ask them if they'd be willing to help you along as well as the recording and listening bit.
musicfan: thank you for your sound advice. Actually, none of this is new to me. I've been playing sessions for at least five years now, and the tunes I know, I can play and enjoy playing up to dance speed - I just don't enjoy playing at warp speed. And I know not to play tunes I don't know, or noodle, or expect anyone to lower their standards for me. I'd just like to participate in (be part of) a more advanced session as a way of stretching my abilities, and for the musical enjoyment.
As an example, while in Dingle a year ago I played in O’Flaherty’s session where I was asked to start tunes and did not feel inhibited by starting a few on my own initiative. It was a small session, but with very good players. The next morning I was stopped by someone on the street who asked if it was I playing fiddle the previous night, and then she complemented me on my playing. A very nice gesture, and it was a very enjoyable experience playing in that session. This is the sort of session I would like to be part of. I don't want to just observe on the sidelines. So again, where is the middle ground?
"For that matter why should they invite you to start a tune if they don't know if you can even play?" That never seemed to be a problem in Ireland. But I always asked first.
Several of you seem to indicate that an elite or advanced session requires playing fast - where on earth did that idea come from.
Where we are at, 'swing' is more important than speed. Playing at warp speed is usually an indication of immaturity or flamboyance from the insecure or possibly from consuming large quantities of booze.
All we ask is that anyone joining the session is respectful to others and to the music. Doesn't matter if you only know a few tunes as long as you can handle them reasonably OK.
Don't steal my seat or don't steal my set and you'll be OK !!
"That never seemed to be a problem in Ireland. But I always asked first."
Stewart, I don't mean to be harping on you, but I'm still wondering if your assessment of the higher-end sessions is fair. You say you were treated better in Ireland, but you add that you “always asked first.” Did you also ask first when you were at those sessions in Seattle, or are there different assumptions about what’s appropriate?
Like I said, I’m not harping on you, I’m just curious. I’ve played in a lot of sessions in Ireland as well, and I noticed that in many of them there’s a different assumption about how things are to proceed. I mentioned the “snippet method” above which is something I saw in Ireland. Any attempt I made to introduce the concept at all back in SF resulted in most people rebelling against it with righteous indignation. People would criticize the concept saying I was trying to insert too much control on the session. But what I witnessed in Ireland wasn’t forcing control, but rather just including a little more communication about what people wanted to play. The Irony is that the people who criticized the concept as being “too controlling” would actually lose some of their control over the session if we were to proceed like that. Most people around here just want to start tunes unannounced and whenever they want regardless of who the host is or what the circumstances are.
The reason I bring this up is because there are obviously different assumptions about what a session is here in cities on the West Coast of the US and the ones in Ireland. There are a myriad of different factors at work that effect what goes on. For one thing, in Ireland, the ratio of great players that are likely to show up at a given session is much higher, and there are probably far more sessions (and session styles) to choose from. People in Ireland might be more relaxed for this reason, while people in our areas might feel more vulnerable to visitors coming around who will expect the session to cater to their level and expectations -- thus changing the session from what ever they wanted it to be into the local default style session.
I have felt this way on many occasions, and people have mentioned that our session is “elitist” for some of the same reasons, but all I want is a chance to play tunes I like to play, the way I like to play them, and with my musical pals I’m doing the session with. Anyone is welcome to join us, but many times people will come in and assume our session is just like the one down the road they go to, and if it’s not – it’s elitist.
Stewart - I made the stupid assumption that you were a beginner because of the way you were harping about the elitist vs. beginner sessions. If you've been playing for five years now and you still don't want to join the 'elite' session then go ahead and start your own. Maybe it is a lot of trouble but that would give you the middle ground of a session that you want.
I didn't mean to imply that I thought that an elite session has to be at warp speed - not even sure if I did or not. I still say that those folks have the right to play however they want too and if you aren't comfortable playing with them then start your own. Best of luck. . .
Well I hesitate to keep at this, it's probably run its course. Since this was about complaints, I was just registering mine, and it came at a time when I was a bit down about this and other things. Sorry.
But to answer some questions, I don't really want to enter the elitist sessions since I don't feel comfortable there and don't enjoy playing at warp speed. I'd just like to get together with some other people who are good musicians and care about the quality of the music, and want to have a good time.
In Ireland I visited mostly the small towns - Dingle, Kinvara, Westport, Culdaff among other places, and in the off season, so the sessions were small but still had good players. I would always ask first if I could join, and I was never refused but always felt welcome. Then I would wait for someone to ask me to start a tune, which usually didn't take very long.
So, if there are others in Seattle who feel like I do, let me know and we can get together. I have a new home in the NW part of the city with a nice music room.
Culdaff! McGrory's Pub? Great place, I try to make a point of visiting there on every trip, share a few tunes and stories with John, etc...
Just a little observation - good music comes from the heart. If you're not connecting with the other players on a personal level, then there's little point in pursuing their music. I.e., if they are being elitist and you're feeling excluded, you're better off playing somewhere else with someone else than kowtowing to their whims. People who treat you as if you have to prove yourself to them, before accepting you, are simply trying to prove themselves to themselves. Good musicians don't need to do that. I think that accounts for a large part of the difference in treatment you get from sessions in Ireland vs the US - most of the musicians you'll encounter at sessions in Ireland are totally secure in who they are, they have nothing to prove to anyone.
HighlandSun, you might be making errant assumptions about the musicians in the Seattle high-end sessions that Stewart is referring to. For one thing -- many are Irish born. Besides that, the ones I know are also "totally secure in who they are, they have nothing to prove to anyone."
I wish people would get off this "elitist" rant. I would hazard to say that these people have formed exactly the same kind of session for which Stewart is looking. Stewart would like to get together with like-minded individuals that want to play similar tunes at a similar pace.
As I tried to say (with too many words) it's largely a matter of perspective. Elitist, or just sticking to high standards? Too fast, or just perceived that way by someone with less experience? It's really impossible to say exactly where to draw the line.
Also, sometimes people of great expertise put on a gruff exterior as a defense mechanism against people whose enthusiasm turns out to be short-lived.
I try (not always successfully) to remember that it's not about me, it's about the music. I'm just a guy trying to play a little better than I did yesterday, because I like the music.
If I arrive at a new session and people are unsmiling ,unfriendly, and "elitist",( yes, I,ve been to one of those in Seattle!) I realize that I,ve come to the wrong place,), no matter how skillful the players, or how" Irish" they might be, music isn,t about exclusivity. Unfortunately Irish music gets a bad reputation due to this kind of behavior. All you "elitists out there, learn to smile when you play ,it might help!
If I believed in "elitist" sessions I'd have to play on my own.
Grow up, Breandan is right, just go along and play what you play, without ruining the night. Most people should have a fair idea of their own capabilities.
I mean, I'm not going to arrive at a tunes session with my mandolin, but I could bring it as my sole instrument to a songs night.
To answer some of howsshecutting's initial post:
Yes, of course, these are genuine gripes, some of which I and various others have expressed over time. Some of the same gripes may be directed to me. eg, doing the same old warhorses week in week out with no sign of improvement. I could say you can't improve on perfection, but too many people have suffered my attempts at box and flute playing to know that doesn't relate to me. But I've not been able to practice anywhere near as much as a few years ago, due to family commitments. So I can see it from both sides.
As for the speed freaks and ego creeps, Breandan has it right. Everyone else too - great points. Basically you need to find a session that is right for you - and another thing, maybe I've got it wrong here, but yes when you enter a new session, be humble, gentle, compliant - to a certain degree...but never be afraid. Have self respect. As well as respect for the others ( a given.)
On another slant, last Thursday at our local sesh there was a healthy representation of the regulars...if it needs to be defined as per the above criteria, it was recently categorised as Level B2a in the Monthly Report by the Lewisham and Catford Pub Session Constabulary which is defined as "on a general level, intermediate with a sufficiently regular smattering of advanced players, both visitors and regulars." So there you have it. We're somewhere in the upper half of the second division of the British Session League. We have a few fixtures still to run, but they're home matches so we should be OK.
As I was saying, this last sesh at the Blythe was composed of a core of regular players of the ubiquitous Level B2a intermediate variety, but there were numerous new players along. Probably ranging from Level B3 down to Dminor, with some accidentals thrown in. These were formed of two clusters. The clusters thus had a two tailed spatial distribution. The newbies were randomly distributed. No conflict was observed between either group.
In fact it was probably one of the nicest most easy going sessions there for a long time. The oldies weren't worried that it was going to be overrun by newbies, weren't worried about what the governor would have thought. And the newbies, being respectful of the music, knew when to give the session back to the regulars.
I don't think there's ever an excuse for being impolite or unfriendly right off the bat, but I also think it would help if people who complain about elitists looked at things from the elitists' point of view, and why some might be defensive about some sessions.
For many of them, their session is an artistic endeavor. They are artists, striving, often under difficult conditions, to create something very specific. The fact that they are doing it in a public place may mislead others into thinking there is a lot of flexibility in their desired result, when there actually isn't. They can feel very real disppointment when their effort is derailed. I'm not talking about a tune here or there -- I'm talking about a real, general shift in style, in repertoire, or in quality. Typically, they can't express that to a person who is interfering with their process (that would come under the heading of talking sh*te), so either they suffer silently or they act churlish, and sometimes they become paranoid and totally, pre-emptively, exclusive.
Of course some people are just jerks. Or they are kids who really don't want any old fogeys cramping their style and their flirtations. Or oldsters who don't want to be annoyed by a load of faddish, gimmick-y (or just unfamiliar) tunes. But anyway, they still don't have to play with anyone they don't want to play with.
On the other hand, there are sessions that are more community-oriented, and they are usually led by convivial, kind-hearted, generous, encouraging people -- at least they are for a few hours a week! I actually think the motivation of those people is a lot more mysterious and interesting than the motivation of the elitists.
I think it's a question of priorities. The people you're talking about see the music as a way of bringing a small community of people together and as an excuse to get together and have a chat and a laugh over a free beer. They see the "creation of art" aspect as less important. Their motives probably aren't as mysterious as you think, well, less mysterious than the name "54321" anyway
Sorry -- I ran out of steam and didn't express myself clearly.
I shouldn't have written "mysterious," because I didn't mean that the motivation of the non-elitist leaders is unfathomable. Some of the most joyful and funniest moments of my life --musicaI or otherwise -- have been in this sort of community-orientated session.
I only meant to draw attention to people who "could" be elitist, based on the quality of their playing, but instead are open and inclusive, spending time playing with people whose music they can't honestly be that excited about, as sounds per se. They are balancing lots of "extra-musical" considerations and cope with issues of group happiness and standards and goals and acceptable behaviour in a more nuanced way, with more generosity, than "include/exclude." To play music -- weekly -- for reasons other than the quality of the sound you create ... that partakes a bit in mystery -- the good kind. Cheers to them.
Hmm, I understood what you said, but I think it still boils down to the personality and priorities of the individual - in other words, what they find fulfilling. Look at it another way. You talk about quality players who "could" be elitist. Why not turn that around and see it as elitist players who "could" be more open and inclusive? Why should there be an assumption that quality players can be assumed to be elitist by default? Shouldn't we expect a bit more from skilled players as human beings? Surely the whole point of music that is acquired by aural transmission *is* generosity in *giving* tunes and playing *together*. Maybe it's these mysterious un-elitist players who can see the whole picture and can see past the "art" of it. These days we have near perfect recordings of this music performed by brilliant musicians, and it's perhaps because of that that many of us see this purely as an art form to perfect, and nothing more. Unfortunately I think that view causes you to be blinkered from other facets of the music that are equally if not more rewarding for the soul. And I think that's a great shame.
I just posted this poem on a more recent thread "To me this is what it's all about" http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/9671
I don't think the Fiddler of Dooney was an elitist in the sense that he wanted to keep his music to himself and a small circle of like-minded friends. Rather, he wanted to share his music with others so that they too would enjoy it, play it, dance to it, etc.
My session bitch is this: whenever a guitarist sings a song and leaves his electronic tuner switched on, surely he can actually see when he is singing bum notes. Why doesn't he stop? Or take singing lessons? Eh? Eh? Grrrrr
This is an interesting thread indeed...
In my opinion, this elitism thing is an inevitable result of playing music in open/semi-open sessions. If the music is not an organic process of bringing people into the tradition and nurturing them so that the tradition continues and grows, then some of those those who are at the top may have no incentive to play below their level. Without that supportive environment to grow in, learners inevitably batten on to any better player who will tolerate them. After a while, good players may well get a bit fed up with providing musical support for a load of wannabees, and may justifiably become a bit standofish towards any new people who approach, until they prove themselves. This is quite understandable. The trouble is that BECAUSE they are the best players, others see this as being the way that good players behave, and emulate it, and frequently the most boorish players are not the elite, but their acolytes - those who have winkled their way into the inner circle, and want to keep things like that. The idea that it's alright to give someone the cold shoulder because you don't like the way they are playing, rather than engaging with them, is maybe also a symptom of the general speeding up of life. People feel there just isn't time to waste a whole precious evening doing something like helping someone else out rather than playing at the level they want to. The cold shoulder thing is a symptom of an inability to communicate in a constructive manner. I must confess that I've been in sessions where we've done this simply because no-one wants to bothered be the one who spends the rest of the evening trying to steer a miscreant in the right direction(!) I've come to the conclusion that it's lazy and self-centred and probably rather short sighted, so I try not to go along with it any more - there's always another evening and another session. I also think it's to do with larger sessions, and people who play together but dont really know each other, and to do with changes in the way the music is learned - by emulation rather than assimilation, and the gradual upping of the standard of playing in general.
But I think that the liveliness underpinning this debate shows that the music is in a healthy state. The fact that people have sessions which they can complain about - the fact that most of the complaints are about sessions that might be too GOOD rather than just dull and crap, is very telling!
Highland Sun/ Stewart, yeah Mc Grory's Culdaff is a great spot. Roisin Harrigan/Mc Grory is an excellent fiddler and lovely warm sharing person to boot. Mc Guinness's bar in the town used to be a great session pub also. You're getting me homesick
Dow, I have to try again. I agree utterly with you that people who are open and inclusive are so because they find it fulfilling. Isn't that what I was describing, and honoring? I was simply trying to describe the ways in which people differ, and thus the ways in which sessions differ.
I never said good players ought to be elitist. I was simply observing that they have the option of limiting who they play with in a way that others don't. I never said I was an elitist or that I only ever play for "pure art," what ever that is. Actually, I never said anything at all about my motivation, what I like, or who I'll play with won't.
I was describing what I know to be the feelings of some fine musicians. I don't think they are being bad citizens of Irish music. If their well goes dry, they won't have anything to share. They are trying to reach a zone, just like all of us. Your zone may include a lot of human feeling and interaction. Theirs might be the neurological stimulation of a certain kind of music. Someone else's might be getting drunk and singing Dad's favorite song. Or getting stoned and playing only D minor tunes. And people's "zones," if I can extend the metaphor, shift over time. Young turks can turn into beloved elder statesmen, and convivial folks can turn into old curmudgeons.
If you find yourself in someone else's zone and it's not compatible, have a beer and look elsewhere, don't denounce the people who differ from you.
Snapshot:
I recently attended a Seattle, Sunday afternoon session, after spending a week at Friday Harbor with some incredibly talented players of ITM from Ireland and all over. I wouldn't say the sessions at Friday Harbor had "session leaders" but that's not to say they were absent of leadership by the strong players. But 'session leader' wasn't treated at all like some kind of a position. Most of the time the strongest players were the most relaxed about the whole experience.
The session in Seattle was quite a different thing. The session was already on when I got there alone. I stood with my flute case and felt a little invisible - no one invited me to play. A lady having her lunch advised me to push right in, so reluctantly I did one of those awkward "is it okay for me to sit in" things. My first mistake was in failing to realize that this session moved from player to player in a circle and, after a bit, when someone played one jig and were done - I started another. I noticed a few eyes darting about, but they joined in. Right after that I saw the pattern and waited for the leader to call on me, and when she said, "We go in a circle here." I confessed I'd picked up on that immediately upon starting that jig. Understanding the dynamics at our own session, I wasn't about to approach this session without respect for whatever these people had.
It was a mix of players, covering a wide range of ages and abilities. Some were proficient, some appeared to be beginners, or perhaps just didn't work that hard, and a couple seemed new to their instruments. The music wasn't particularly good, but the punters and players were having a good time. I knew most of the tunes that were started and particularly enjoyed supporting a young fiddle player get through a set she likely played much better when alone. I didn't stay till the bitter end, but I made a point of enjoying it for what it was. I don't know if I'd attend every week if I lived in Seattle, but I enjoyed this particular experience.
I have attended other sessions in Seattle where people who arrived late seemed very concerned that I was in "their spot." I wasn't even aware Irish musicians spent time with Carlos Casteneda before that - but I always yeild to the existing culture - that is if I can just pick up on it. It was weird to me then, that the whole vibe seemed to have me playing about as poorly as possible. But that came from inside my head, no one could make me play as crap as that but me, even as a (then)beginner.
At our session it is impossible to walk in and not be welcomed. It just ain't gonna happen. But that's us at our session. I've even seen people tolerate a noodler for about two tunes in the interest preserving the idea that we're all one big happy family.
"people who arrived late seemed very concerned that I was in 'their spot.'"
Session regulars (hosts, anchors etc.) like to sit next to each other so they can hear each other -- it's as simple as that. They also are likely to be friends and enjoy sitting next to one another because it's a social event as well. At our local session the hosts sit on or near the bench along the wall, and visitors fill in around the table. The hosts rotate, so sometimes I'm on the bench, but when visiting someone else's session I sit wherever there's room around the table. When I'm hosting with my pals and a punctual visitor sits on the bench or in a favored seat next to it -- I'll tell them that so and so is sitting there -- eventhough they might not have arrived yet. This isn't rocket science, and it certainly doesn't mean the session is "elitist."
I disagree PB. If you were to politely point out that the bench is the SESSION LEADER'S SEAT (in golden italics)before you cast the intruder into outer darkness would be one thing,but to say that the seat in question was reserved for So&so (who couldn't be bothered to show up on time ) who might want to sit there when (if) he (or she) ever condescends to show up is about the same as saying "So&so is important and you are not". It might be true, but it's elitist to say so.
Being "very concerned" that someone is in their spot. I wouldn't call elitist. Arrogant, ego-centric, childish, & rude, but not neccessarily elitist.
I'm one to talk:
I have to bring my own stool since the chairs are too low and comfortable to play in. It's tax season, so the proffessionals are on haitus. I sometimes play alone (since I'm there anyway). The punters are fabulous tho'...
So let me see if I understand you, Owell. So I show up to host a session with a couple of pals (fiddle and guitar/banjo) and I find a couple of visitors who arrived early (often happens) and I sit on the bench and the visitors sit on the bench next to me, and in the nearest chair -- and I'm supposed to just let this be. Then a couple of more people show up and sit in the adjoining seats, and when the two people I came to the pub to play tunes with show up -- they end up sitting across the table from me. Then for the rest of the night I can hear the whistle player and bouzouki guy right next to me better than the people I came to play tunes with in the first place... and I can hardly hear them at all. And this is how it's supposed to go or else I'm being an "elitist"?
What that would mean is that I couldn't hone in to what the people I'm hosting the session with, and that I can hardly talk to them let alone share suggestions of tunes to play etc. And if I reserve the seats next to me for the co-hosts... I'm "elitist"?
All I can gather is that y'all down there in Texas have some strange ideas about what happens at sessions. Almost every time I see some unusual session MO I'll look at the person's profile and their in Texas. (This happened just today on another thread in this forum.) Whatever you guys want sessions to be like down there is fine -- down there. But don't expect the rest of us to follow your example.
The sessions that i have been attending for near over four months, i've only seen one complaint, and that was from a friend of mine who does indead like to play fast as he is a bodran player (and really good one too) But his annoyence was when we had a large number (about twenty five or so) and three illien pipers, and one was just playing all these slow airs, one after another. That left him to play and one or two others. But the rest of use just sat there looking stupid.
But for all the other times that i have been to sessions, i've not seen elietes things. Tunes sometimes are sloppy, but every one just alughs it off. All in all, the two i attend regularly are extremily welcoming to newbies, and are very friendly, and yes, want to drink. but they don't care where they sit. Nor do they care about playing tunes over andover. Every so often we get a few famous players, and they too are firendly and open. Also, every so often it is a little more sturctured as to what tunes are being played, but that usually happens because one of the more better players just learned a new tune, and wants to share it with the other who are also eager to learn it. So it might get played six or seven times in a night.
Most of the tunes we play are on the edge fringes of tunes that are traditional. Though there are the ocassional ones that pop in.
All in all, i have no bitches. But i am sure some have to bitch about my three pints being just a bit too much....(loud singing in the bathroom)\
Interesting thoughts PB. I didn't catch that Owell was saying that. And yes, I know I'm from Texas and it's one of those wierd places where we like people to feel welcome. I rarely go to sessions to play just with certain people. There's a lot I can feel that I can learn from strangers. If I only want to be able to hear certain people then I'll go play at their house with just them.
Not to mention that Owell made exceptions for the seat being reserved for the Session leader, maybe with tongue planted firmly in cheek but he made that concession anyways. If you and your friends co-host the session then it doesn't hurt to say that ya'll prefer to sit together. But there does seem to be an almost Baptist like tendency to cling to given seats. And nothing makes people feel less welcome then being asked to clear a chair that belongs to so-and-so especially if that person doesn't bother to show up.
What's wrong with making people feel welcome? Why do we have to have assigned seating? Isn't that something left behind in college at the latest?
So if the "Texas" idea of a session is to sit where you want and just have fun then I'll stick with that . . . and ya'll can have your assigned seats.
"...the same as saying "So&so is important and you are not". It might be true, but it's elitist to say so..."
Does "elitist" mean "honest"? Does it mean a willingness to state the obvious?
When at a session, as musicians, (but absolutely not as *people*), some people *are* more important than others. If I joined in a barnraising, I would not be as important as a person who knew something about building, had rounded up the material, and drawn up some plans. My generous impulse, my goodwill, and my sweat and effort might be equal to others, but I simply would not be as valuable to the effort. My proper place would be on the periphery, eagerly doing whatever the organizers asked me to do, picking up nails, or what ever it is they need done at barnraisings ...
54321: the analogy is a bit strained. If the designer/planner is late to the barnraising, I don't think anyone will start without 'em. If a session "leader" is late to a session, then it seems to me they're no longer in the lead, are they?
And again - if you want to play *your* tunes with *your* associates, do that in one of *your* private homes. If you're playing an *open* session in public, then be open. If it's not open, then call it what it is - a gig, with occasional approved guests.
Phantom Button - the obvious corrollary to your statement: if you're surrounded by strangers and can't hear your buddies across the table from you, then flipped around - if you're surrounded by your buddies you can't hear the strangers across the table from you. If indeed all you want to hear is your buddies, and not the strangers, then again, that's of course your right, but that isn't an open session, and you may as well just tell all the visitors to stay home next time or at least leave their instruments at home, because you don't care to hear them.
Highland, what Jack is talking about is a well run session. It is almost always better to have good players sit closer together so that they can hear each other. This forms a nice core for the session and lifts it higher. It has little or nothing to do with being friendly or not.
Also, pubs vary and sometimes the spaces are constrained. I think that is where the significant seating issue comes into play. Now, our sessions are in larger establishments and are sort of a round table affair. There really is no vantage point, so the physical focus of the session may change from week to week. Thus, there are no saved seats as such.
And adjunct from this is that we do not feel the need to "invite" people into the session. If you show up in the bar, there is plenty of space. Just sit down.
(And Ravyn, I have no idea what you are on about there. Are we attending the same sessions?)
musicfan says, "If you and your friends co-host the session then it doesn't hurt to say that ya'll prefer to sit together."
Uh... that was exactly the point -- I do explain that. I'm continually amazed how asking people that are visiting the session if we can sit together means that we're somehow "unwelcoming." I happen to know we are very welcoming, and it's the visitors who tell me that time and time again.
There are some visitors that seem to think that any session in a public place automatically means that it has to conform to some rule that says all sessions are open free-for-alls, and should cater to anyone at any level, and that it belongs to all the ITM players of the world who happen to drop in. And if that session tries to be anything else -- then they should stay home and have their sessions behind closed doors. (HighlandSun makes this point)
I'll say this again as I have many times in this forum. A session is whatever the people who are starting it, hosting, anchoring etc., want it to be. If you're a visitor then it's up to you to join their session -- it's not up to them to change their session to suit your expectations. In other words -- watch and listen... figure out if it's the sort of session you might like to join... and if it is -- approach it with your manners firmly intact.
If it isn't your cup of tea -- then you should snipe it on Internet message boards and denounce everyone there as being unwelcoming and elitist.
My session bitch is novices or begginers that come to advanced sessions and expect people to accept them as equal players. Guess what? when you've put the years and years of methodic practise down like i have instead of pulling your instrument out once every 2 weeks if you're lucky, then come talk to me. Just because you own an instrument and you show up and have some interest in irish traditional music doesn't mean you can jump in at any session you want. when you start out playing at sessions ...you sit in the back and learn whatever you can, eventually after years of tireless practise and dedication you get better and hey presto you get good enough to play in better sessions.
54321, I'm a bit shocked by your very defensive-sounding reply to my post.
"I never said good players ought to be elitist. I was simply observing that they have the option of limiting who they play with in a way that others don't. I never said I was an elitist or that I only ever play for "pure art," what ever that is. Actually, I never said anything at all about my motivation, what I like, or who I'll play with won't."
Did I say you were an elitist?
No.
Did I say anything about your motivation?
No.
I also never used the phrase "pure art". I used the adverb "purely" to mean "simply" or "solely".
Is it the "blinkered" thing that bothered you? When I said "causes you to be blinkered", I meant "you" in the sense of "one", not "you personally". Why would I mean "you"?! I've never even fecking met you and I don't know anything about you. I was trying to have a neutral discussion. As in, I was hoping that there was the merest chance that that might still be possible on the discussion board of this website, but clearly it's not.
I'm not going to say anymore for fear of being misquoted again.
This is great! I love to watch people bitching at each other. It's like Séamus Tansey writing open letters to the Irish Times.
As usual, the same misconceptions, misquotes and mistakes as ever. It strikes me that if anyone actually attended someone else's session they would find it's not that different from their own. I'd rather be reading this than actually doing work though.
Yeah but it would be lovely if, just once in a while, just sometimes, even if it was only like once a year, we could have a normal, sensible discussion without deliberate misunderstandings, name-calling and tantrums.
Dow, please dont worry about what others say about you when they are obviously missing the point.
I for one have not contributed to the discussion for that very reason (as observed on the Ciff and fipple site).
You are entitled to your opinion and I enjoy reading your point of views.
If someone wants to read your offerings and take them up the wrong way, LET THEM. Their problem with literacy is not something you can rectify. By the way, that was an observation on my part and not a personal attack on any individual.
Dow -- You're right: I did think you meant "me" when you wrote "you," I guess because you addressed me directly earlier, and since you switched from "we" in the previous sentence to "you" . I re-read your post, it does come across differently if the "you" is not "me."
Since we don't know each other and we're not in each other's presence, all I have to go by is the words on the screen.
I put the "pure art" in there because I was feeling self-conscious about my use of "art " and "artist" in my earlier post. I know it's never only about the pure sound.
There's an idea that the pub sessions in Ireland and England, or New York, for that matter, were open and welcoming back in the good old days before people lost sight of what is important. I admit that I wasn't there (I've only been playing Irish music for 17 years), but I have heard plenty of first-hand accounts of limited invitation, exclusion, criticism, and downright meanness.
Honestly, I have to laugh at the idea that being on time to a session is the most important factor in where you get to sit.
Yr absolutely right Jack, people in Texas do it differently. We tend to view a session as a social function and only do it for the "craic". There is at least one session in Dallas and one in Austin that you'd feel completely at home at. Hateful, nasty people.....stranger wouldn't be welcome if they brought in a keg of stout.
I'll admit I was yanking yr chain a bit. I'm not really calling you an elitist, I'm illustrating why someone might think so.
Actually in yr position I'd probably sit down and take a few minutes to explain about the local culture of this session and why we do things the way we do them. That may be your method, but I have seen it done the other way far, far, too often.
I travel a lot and have often been berated for taking the wrong seat, or breaking some secret, private protocol. I quit joining strange sessions. I 'll go to the bar and drink, If I like what I hear, I might introduce myself 2nd visit (might not) and ask if I can sit in on the 3rd (might not).
y'see: I _AM_ an elitist. I'm not even going to bother dragging my fiddle in and casting my pearls until you have proved that yr session is up to my standards.
While were batting around stoopid generalizations ( I'll be happy to hi-jack this hi-jack). I have spent a good deal of time on the west coast (usa) and visited several countries and if I were task with the quest of finding an elitist, San Francisco would be a dandy place to start
In my opinion Flute-toot is dead on right!, Nice post!
It's the year 2006 and so many people out there want automatic respect but they don't eant to earn it. They al want to feel important and to be heard and they have delusions about their own talents. As far as I'm concerned unless you've put your time in then you you need to follow the session leader and get overyourself if you arent treated like a freaking virtuoso after two weeks with a bodran. People should vondect them selves in a manner that indicates one and only one thing....that you love the music and RESPECT the tradition. That means shut up, have fun and be polite and take whatever scraps the heavy hitters give you.
Well, I took several verbal kickings on the one thread, a while ago, for expressing what chef paul and flute toot have just expressed. http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/7902
I'm glad I stood firm, though. I'm not even that good, but I know enough to hold my own. Strange how these things come round again in different guises.
That was a walk down memory lane there, Danny. That was the thread I offered an anecdote about the time I learned the hard way how where you sit might be cheeky. I'll repost it hear for our friends on this thread who might think Charlie Piggot and Johnny Moynahan are "elitists."
"I learned about this the hard way back in 1990 in Galway. I arrived at a session hosted by Charlie Piggot. I was sitting on the window bench with Charlie on one side and my wife on the other. A man came in with a bouzouki and motioned that he would like to have my seat. I said to him that I wanted to remain next to my wife. Charlie said, "Come on, we'll squeeze you in." and the man replied, "That's ok Charlie -- I know my place." and he sat on the other side of the fire. After about 2 minutes I realized it was Johnny Moynahan -- the other host. I felt like the clueless yank that I was, but quietly got up, apologized and switched seats with Johnny. It was a great night of tunes once I got over my embarrassment."
PB - I certainly never said not to move or request for someone to move if they were the session leader. We said it is rather elitist to ask someone to move for someone who hasn't shown up . . . at least that's how I read it . . .
Well, Jack the Lad, you're entitled to your opinion.
But maybe the "strong leaders" I referred to are a lot like your mentor Steve Jones, helping to steer beginners in the right direction. I don't think that's so ridiculous.
Hehe, I don't think Steve would take kindly to being called my mentor, nor is he.
Perhaps I'm trying to steer beginners in the right direction with my post as well. Everybody needs a few good words every once in a while but, just maybe, sessions (especially like the ones some of you might run) are the problem not the solution.
"PB - I certainly never said not to move or request for someone to move if they were the session leader. We said it is rather elitist to ask someone to move for someone who hasn't shown up . . . at least that's how I read it . . ."
The way I read it, and what I've been responding to is the idea that the person that hasn't yet showed up is a co-host. That was the case in my anecdote as well. We had already begun playing tunes before Johnny showed up. I wish Charlie would have said, "Save this spot here for Johnny." Then I wouldn't have had the awkward encounter when he arrived.
Right, now Murphy is the end-all expert on sessions after moving here from the Sierra Nevada mountains and playing in them for a couple of years. It's amazing what you've accomplished in your brief time playing ITM, Murphy -- first you figured out that everyone between the age of 30 and 60 has ruined the music, and now you're telling us that sessions are the problem. Oh wise one... what other gems are you keeping from us?
Wow, PB/Gilder, that brush must be pretty worn out from painting me into a corner so many times. Perhaps, just once you might stay out of this discussion so it doesn't become another Gilder vs Murphy thread. I don't post after all of your "errant" posts to disagree, so you might try it for once as well.
Opposing viewpoints shouldn't hurt and they can lead to a more informed populace.
Ah yes, the old "when you're older you'll understand" patronizing card is out again I see. You're right, the last thing we need is new ideas from a possibly fresh thinker.
Oh, of course... so sorry, Murphy. I'll stay out of this thread that I've been participating in since it started now that you've showed up. How rude of me to butt in... I'll go away now.
Oh, of course, you don't like to be told where to sit and when to pl... errrr... I mean when to post and when not to. How rude of me to sit dow.... errr...., I'll go away now.
Hahahaha That was is the 60s,Laitch... they didn't have sessions here then I don’t think. Actually, contrary to what Murphy would like you to believe -- we have great sessions here -- great fun. Everyone gets along for the most part; don't let Murphy's twisted slant on things influence your impression.
That would be our problem then. Everything I've written has been pertaining to saving seats for a person yet to arrive who is not a session host or co-host. Gotta love the internet and the ease with which stuff is misinterpreted!
And Jack - please don't go giving those of us on the boards who are younger a bad reputation. I happen to like sessions, well-run or not, and I really like being able to follow a strong leader.
Phantom
Sorry for the delayed response, but I've been busy. Not to kill your supposition-based response to me, but the people who arrived late were not session leaders. I'd have gotten that. It must have been the social thing, 'cause it wasn't the ability thing, or some deep respect for the quality of the music, they hadn't heard anyone play.
PB (Mr Gilder )
I want to respectfully and formally apologise for starting a pesshing contest w/ you and being unable to finish. I knew, in the back of my mind that I really don't have that much playtime. So, sorry, I have to bow out. Maybe we can try again in a few months.
musicfan -- If you review the thread, Stevie C. brought up the subject of seating, I suggested the reserved seating might be for hosts, anchors etc., and Owell took me to task on reserved seating issue. Now I realize that the idea that the seats were for session hosts got tangled up into all of that, and that an acceptation was made to a certain effect, but the emphasis seamed to be that anyone saving a seat for someone else is considered rude and unwelcoming. I suppose if you saved a seat for someone that never shows up might be a problem, but friends save seats for their pals that they know are coming all the time. Sometimes I'll text my pals at sessions I'm headed to and ask them to save a seat for me, and when I get there and everyone's wedged around the table -- there's my seat -- right next to my pal. Am I being rude and unwelcoming if I do that? Should that be illegal?
When I reviewed the thread and saw Stevie's comment that the reserved seating wasn't for session leaders and Owell's first comment that maybe it would be ok if it was explained that the spots were for the session leaders and I agree with that.
I'm not sure that I think it's neccesarily 'illegal' to have friends save seats but at times it could come across as rude if the session is always crowded and other people have to sit at the outside and watch an empty seat just sit there until the person it is being saved for bothers to show up.
I definitely understand if it's an emergency but making a habit out of saving seats does become slightly elitist. It's elitist in that saving seats for someone who is late gives off the attitude of that they are more important to the other people (typically the ones saving seats, which probably is true if they are friends) and that they are going to be more of a contribution then the people who are there on time. If it isn't elitist then it is at least more then slightly Southern Baptist.
Note that session leaders are always an exception. They have the right to be elitist to the rest of us mere mortals.
Yea... I guess to me the session is kind of like riding in a bus, there are the scheduled drivers, and the passengers are along for the ride. When I'm one of the scheduled drivers I like the people who are scheduled to drive with me all up in the driver's seats. When I'm a passenger it doesn't matter where I sit, but I do like to sit next to my pals. Saving seats for your pals shouldn't be a problem, but if they don't get on the bus at all it definitely becomes awkward.
Riding in buses without drivers can be fun too, but you might spend some time in the ditch.
". . . it could come across as rude if the session is always crowded and other people have to sit at the outside and watch an empty seat just sit there . . . "
Right you are, musicfan.
PB,
There's no reason for that to occur in Frisco. Not when the place is filled with stores that should be happy to sell lifelike inflatable dolls to musical ersatz "ugly gay guys". Go get one and spare the feelings of future session mates.
At our Sunday session, there are two tables reserved. The four of us who are employed to be there sit with our backs to the wall, for a number of reasons not just musical, and visitors sit around us.
We sit in the same seats and formation, because we are paid to entertain we need to lead the session. That is fairly simple.
At other informal sessions, sit where you like, although cast a musical eye. Three bodhrans sitting together is asking for trouble.
"Three bodhrans sitting together is asking for trouble."
I'm curious, Blissters... it has been established in this forum over and over that one bodhran is quite enough at any given session, and that if more than one player shows up -- they should trade off. How do you deal with this as a session leader who plays bodhran? Do you trade off with the visiting bodhranists? (Please don't tell me you all play at the same time or you'll lose all credibility)
I do whatever I want, because I am not bound by mythical "rules". I have no objection to three flutes, or fiddles, so I do not discriminate.
I agree that three bodhrans can be a bit much. We would not usually have more than two going at once. However as I am the best block of wood player in the world (sounds like bones) I sometimes use that to establish the rhythm.
It really all depends on how many are playing the tune.
Be my session bitch
Be my session bitch
I'm not a pimp; just looking for a medium through whom I can express my session bitches, of which there are many. For example:
Why are there so many people in sessions who have clearly played for years and years but never seem to improve, and play everything as if they are squeezing it painfullly for the first time through their constipated ass?
Why is the person who has the most expensive instruments, who arrives first and lays them out carefully, the one without a note in his head?
Why do people insist on accelerating the pace of their 'showstopper' tunes, until they themselves can't keep up with the tempo, and vomit out a blur of vaguely relevant notes?
Why do guests assume that if they are tolerated to sing one song , they can segue straight into six more?
I need somebody who can sit in on my local session and voice what I think. I am too old and too tactful to do it myself.
Any volunteers?
# Posted on April 2nd 2006 by howsshecutting
Re: Be my session bitch
We have this lovely fiddler that shows up to our sessions -- sometimes she's the only woman there. One night when she showed up I thanked her for coming and told her that were it not for her, people looking at us might think it's a session for ugly gay guys. She looked astonished and said, "Oh great... now everyone's going to think you guys are my bitches."
# Posted on April 2nd 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Be my session bitch
Please don't get me started...
# Posted on April 2nd 2006 by Michael Eskin
Re: Be my session bitch
Two Bitches
I'm limiting myself to two, I don't wan't to whine, I realize that there are a lot of different kinds of people in the world wired a lot different than myself, but three things make me really struggle to be nice.
1) Non-Trad instrumenets. Especially if they are played in non trad way's. Steel mandolins strummed blue grass style, makes me cringe, piano accordians playing polka's and waltzes, ugh!
Join a Polish polka session or something please! Are we the only game in town? Isn't there a bluegrass scene or jazz club or somwhere you could take your zither, 5-stringer and "walking" bass lines. Jeesh!!
2) I REALLY and TRULY love the bodrahn, I play the bodran, I love the sound of a nicely played bodran. Why then do I rarely hear anyone playing the thing with any finesse? Why do the worst players insist on drinking so much and sounding even worse?
# Posted on April 2nd 2006 by Chef Paul
Re: Be my session bitch
Well, you got me at a wrong time. So here goes.
There are several sessions in this town. Most are super elite. Either you have to be invited, or you dare not start a tune unless you are one of the elite, or you are told by the "leader" what tune to play next. And most of the sessions are super fast. At the other end there is a 'mostly sloppy' session. Occasionally we play together, but more often everything seems out of sync, or everyone plays as loud as they can, not listening to anyone else.
I'm an intermediate level player (whatever that means). I've been playing sessions for about five years now and beginning to get a repertoire of tunes down, and can play at a resonable speed. I'd just like to find a middle ground where I can learn from more advanced players and improve my session skills. Continuing to play in a sloppy session just doesn't seem to do it.
I know, just start my own session. But that's easier said than done. I'd really like to get toegther with some more advanced players in a friendly session. But the advanced players seem to want to only play with other advanced players.
I've been to quite a few sessions in Ireland where I've been very welcomed, asked to start tunes, and most of the other players are very good. It's been a pleasure to play with them. But in this country, it dosen't seem to be this way, or at least in this town.
S. in Seattle
# Posted on April 2nd 2006 by Stewart
Re: Be my session bitch
Stewart: In order to protect the innocent, I'll not mention any names, but I've a young friend who moved to Seattle and found your situation to be true. He's a very good musician, but after attending a few of the Seattle sessions, decided he'd be better off by himself. A real pity that you and the likes of him can't get together and make a good session happen there. I am very lucky to live in a town where sessions of many genre can be found, (the Irish is especially grand) and none that I know of, have the problems that Seattle has, or SF or LA for that matter. I'd invite you to move here, but if I told you where, 'twould give away all. I know you'd be welcome, as in Ireland. As for my "session bitch", if the whistle player from Wales starts "The Irish Washerwoman" again, I'll break his fecking whistle into five pieces!
# Posted on April 2nd 2006 by jtrout
Re: Be my session bitch
I used to bitch about sessions quite a bit, but then I realized that it's just a case of different strokes for different folks. I have attended several sessions around my area of the U.S., and found that they all have their good and bad points:
Beginner session: lots of players, leader is not overly qualified, tune list includes many non-standards, and they use sheet music--but it is a very sociable, supportive session for newbies. Lots of songs (what can I say, I'm a tune kind of guy). But I'm too soft-hearted to bitch about it. It's the only regular session in that town, and I like to think it will evolve into a higher-quality session as it develops.
Beginner/Intermediate session: usually lots of players, almost leaderless, a go-round-the-circle, everybody-gets-a-chance type of thing, which results in mixed quality. Some songs. A strong core of dedicated regulars, though, and a lot of session standards (a la the Tunebook listing here), as well as some nice non-Irish trad music. Although I confess I have bitched about a certain piano accordion making everything sound like a polka... but the guys knows a lot more tunes than I do, so I mostly keep it to myself.
Intermediate/advanced session: small, round-the-circle, but dedicated players and lots of session standards. No bitches, really, except that it isn't closer to my home.
I have been to four sessions I'd call "advanced."
One has a reputation for being very strict and super-fast. The leader calls all tunes, and songs appear only rarely, by the exceptionally qualified. Sometimes co-led by famous players.
Another tends to be fast (was a closed, super-fast session, now a bit more open), no songs, leader doesn't call all the tunes because there are several other very experienced players who are quick to pitch in.
The third has a strong leader who calls most tunes (regulars ask by playing a few notes and looking for his nod). Strictly trad. Sometimes attended/co-led by famous players. Recordings I made at that session in 2000-2001 got me started.
The fourth session I attended only once, some time ago, and I confess I bitched about it because of the strong leader. But I now realize that it was similar to session #3, and the tape I made there has also helped me become a better player. I really ought to go back and give it another try, if it's still there.
Sure, we all enjoy a good screed sometimes. But if you think about it, time spent bitching is time that could be spent on becoming a better player. And sessions are so fragile, anyway--it's kind of a miracle that anybody manages to find a welcoming venue, and dedicated regulars, and keeps it going.
So I guess I'm bitching about bitching. (How's that for a Zen koan?)
# Posted on April 2nd 2006 by mickray
Re: Be my session bitch
"or you are told by the "leader" what tune to play next"
Stewart... are you sure about this. I've been to a fair amount of sessions, and I know most of the players in these high-end sessions around Seattle. I'm sure that they will invite visitors to start a tune now and then, but I've never heard of a session host anywhere telling the person what tune to play when they ask someone to start a tune.
# Posted on April 2nd 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Be my session bitch
I remember Miss Tanya Lee Teraoshi called herself an elitist bitch. She was gorgeous.
# Posted on April 2nd 2006 by slainte
Re: Be my session bitch
"The third has a strong leader who calls most tunes (regulars ask by playing a few notes and looking for his nod)."
Ahhhh... the "snippet" method. I like this approach. It doesn't necessarily have to be with one leader, sometimes it's a quorum of hosts, but the communicate what to play next using this method. Everyone knows what tune's next, and you can make the switch together... s'fun. I also think it's a matter of having good manners to acknowledge the host(s) this way.
Other reasons the snippet method is useful:
You can be sure you won't be playing solo.
You don't have to know or agree on what the names are.
If you came late you'll find out if the tune has already been played. (Better than starting it and wondering why no one else joins in, or if they do join in -- they're reluctant, or hearing someone whine about it while you're playing.)
Back-up players will know the key changes.
Cuts down on the random noodling between tunes because people want to hear the snippet.
# Posted on April 2nd 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Be my session bitch
Stop bitchin' BITCH
# Posted on April 2nd 2006 by Ripthecalico
Re: Be my session bitch
Hey, that's MISTER bitch, to you.... ;>}
# Posted on April 2nd 2006 by mickray
Re: Be my session bitch
My only bitch is that there aren't enough of them
# Posted on April 2nd 2006 by flossie
Re: Be my session bitch
There are no problems at the SF sessions.
# Posted on April 2nd 2006 by feadogin
Re: Be my session bitch
I think it is part of the human condition to complain about things that are pretty good; we have had described here sessions where you can learn and/or play as you are learning up to sessions where the discipline is so tight as to stretch your skills to the limit.
Isn't that what we all need ?
# Posted on April 2nd 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Be my session bitch
But there doesn't seem to be any middle ground. Either stay with the sloppy session or somehow jump ahead to where you are accepted as one of the elite. Why the hierarchy of sessions? The rich don't seem to want to associate with the poor.
I have played with some very good players in Ireland and was in fact welcomed and invited to lead tunes. There didn't seem to be any big divide. It was just enjoyment of the music and the craic.
# Posted on April 2nd 2006 by Stewart
Re: Be my session bitch
So go to the elite sessions and listen. I know you want to play with them but the more you hear the tunes they are playing and at the speed that they are playing them out the quicker you'll be able to pick up the tunes.
Take a tape recorder and see if they mind you taping the session. That'll probably wind up with them asking you about what you play.
They'll probably be appreciative when they realize that you want to learn but that you don't want to slow their session down.
The majority of folk/trad musicians that I know are really nice people who love to help others along but they don't always want their release (in this case an elite session) to become a time when they have to coax a lower player along.
So go listen and record them (as long as they don't mind) and pick a tune that you hear to learn and work on it until you can play it. Then go and listen and record and play that tune when it comes around.
Don't noodle and don't expect them to lower their standards. For that matter why should they invite you to start a tune if they don't know if you can even play? They might have dealt with people hijacking their session in the past and so they don't want to let people they don't know start tunes. The best thing to do is go and get to know them. Show an educated interest in what they are doing and consider approaching someone who plays your instrument and ask them if they'd be willing to help you along as well as the recording and listening bit.
# Posted on April 2nd 2006 by musicfan
Re: Be my session bitch
musicfan: thank you for your sound advice. Actually, none of this is new to me. I've been playing sessions for at least five years now, and the tunes I know, I can play and enjoy playing up to dance speed - I just don't enjoy playing at warp speed. And I know not to play tunes I don't know, or noodle, or expect anyone to lower their standards for me. I'd just like to participate in (be part of) a more advanced session as a way of stretching my abilities, and for the musical enjoyment.
As an example, while in Dingle a year ago I played in O’Flaherty’s session where I was asked to start tunes and did not feel inhibited by starting a few on my own initiative. It was a small session, but with very good players. The next morning I was stopped by someone on the street who asked if it was I playing fiddle the previous night, and then she complemented me on my playing. A very nice gesture, and it was a very enjoyable experience playing in that session. This is the sort of session I would like to be part of. I don't want to just observe on the sidelines. So again, where is the middle ground?
"For that matter why should they invite you to start a tune if they don't know if you can even play?" That never seemed to be a problem in Ireland. But I always asked first.
# Posted on April 3rd 2006 by Stewart
Re: Be my session bitch
Mickray - that's an excellent analysis.
# Posted on April 3rd 2006 by gedpipes
Re: Be my session bitch
What's special about Seattle ? "Elitism" has no place at sessions.
# Posted on April 3rd 2006 by Strathfoyle
Re: Be my session bitch
Elite: A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status.
I think i'd rather stick with Jack's 'session for ugly gay guys'....
# Posted on April 3rd 2006 by Ottery
Re: Be my session bitch
Several of you seem to indicate that an elite or advanced session requires playing fast - where on earth did that idea come from.
Where we are at, 'swing' is more important than speed. Playing at warp speed is usually an indication of immaturity or flamboyance from the insecure or possibly from consuming large quantities of booze.
All we ask is that anyone joining the session is respectful to others and to the music. Doesn't matter if you only know a few tunes as long as you can handle them reasonably OK.
Don't steal my seat or don't steal my set and you'll be OK !!
# Posted on April 3rd 2006 by breandan
Re: Be my session bitch
"That never seemed to be a problem in Ireland. But I always asked first."
Stewart, I don't mean to be harping on you, but I'm still wondering if your assessment of the higher-end sessions is fair. You say you were treated better in Ireland, but you add that you “always asked first.” Did you also ask first when you were at those sessions in Seattle, or are there different assumptions about what’s appropriate?
Like I said, I’m not harping on you, I’m just curious. I’ve played in a lot of sessions in Ireland as well, and I noticed that in many of them there’s a different assumption about how things are to proceed. I mentioned the “snippet method” above which is something I saw in Ireland. Any attempt I made to introduce the concept at all back in SF resulted in most people rebelling against it with righteous indignation. People would criticize the concept saying I was trying to insert too much control on the session. But what I witnessed in Ireland wasn’t forcing control, but rather just including a little more communication about what people wanted to play. The Irony is that the people who criticized the concept as being “too controlling” would actually lose some of their control over the session if we were to proceed like that. Most people around here just want to start tunes unannounced and whenever they want regardless of who the host is or what the circumstances are.
The reason I bring this up is because there are obviously different assumptions about what a session is here in cities on the West Coast of the US and the ones in Ireland. There are a myriad of different factors at work that effect what goes on. For one thing, in Ireland, the ratio of great players that are likely to show up at a given session is much higher, and there are probably far more sessions (and session styles) to choose from. People in Ireland might be more relaxed for this reason, while people in our areas might feel more vulnerable to visitors coming around who will expect the session to cater to their level and expectations -- thus changing the session from what ever they wanted it to be into the local default style session.
I have felt this way on many occasions, and people have mentioned that our session is “elitist” for some of the same reasons, but all I want is a chance to play tunes I like to play, the way I like to play them, and with my musical pals I’m doing the session with. Anyone is welcome to join us, but many times people will come in and assume our session is just like the one down the road they go to, and if it’s not – it’s elitist.
# Posted on April 3rd 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Be my session bitch
Stewart - I made the stupid assumption that you were a beginner because of the way you were harping about the elitist vs. beginner sessions. If you've been playing for five years now and you still don't want to join the 'elite' session then go ahead and start your own. Maybe it is a lot of trouble but that would give you the middle ground of a session that you want.
I didn't mean to imply that I thought that an elite session has to be at warp speed - not even sure if I did or not. I still say that those folks have the right to play however they want too and if you aren't comfortable playing with them then start your own. Best of luck. . .
# Posted on April 3rd 2006 by musicfan
Re: Be my session bitch
Or for that matter, if you are willing to set your sights beyond the city itself, come on out into the valley and play on Tuesday nights with us...
# Posted on April 3rd 2006 by Dave Weinstein
Re: Be my session bitch
Well I hesitate to keep at this, it's probably run its course. Since this was about complaints, I was just registering mine, and it came at a time when I was a bit down about this and other things. Sorry.
But to answer some questions, I don't really want to enter the elitist sessions since I don't feel comfortable there and don't enjoy playing at warp speed. I'd just like to get together with some other people who are good musicians and care about the quality of the music, and want to have a good time.
In Ireland I visited mostly the small towns - Dingle, Kinvara, Westport, Culdaff among other places, and in the off season, so the sessions were small but still had good players. I would always ask first if I could join, and I was never refused but always felt welcome. Then I would wait for someone to ask me to start a tune, which usually didn't take very long.
So, if there are others in Seattle who feel like I do, let me know and we can get together. I have a new home in the NW part of the city with a nice music room.
# Posted on April 3rd 2006 by Stewart
Re: Be my session bitch
Culdaff! McGrory's Pub? Great place, I try to make a point of visiting there on every trip, share a few tunes and stories with John, etc...
Just a little observation - good music comes from the heart. If you're not connecting with the other players on a personal level, then there's little point in pursuing their music. I.e., if they are being elitist and you're feeling excluded, you're better off playing somewhere else with someone else than kowtowing to their whims. People who treat you as if you have to prove yourself to them, before accepting you, are simply trying to prove themselves to themselves. Good musicians don't need to do that. I think that accounts for a large part of the difference in treatment you get from sessions in Ireland vs the US - most of the musicians you'll encounter at sessions in Ireland are totally secure in who they are, they have nothing to prove to anyone.
# Posted on April 3rd 2006 by HighlandSun
Re: Be my session bitch
HighlandSun, you might be making errant assumptions about the musicians in the Seattle high-end sessions that Stewart is referring to. For one thing -- many are Irish born. Besides that, the ones I know are also "totally secure in who they are, they have nothing to prove to anyone."
# Posted on April 3rd 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Be my session bitch
I wish people would get off this "elitist" rant. I would hazard to say that these people have formed exactly the same kind of session for which Stewart is looking. Stewart would like to get together with like-minded individuals that want to play similar tunes at a similar pace.
# Posted on April 3rd 2006 by Jode
Re: Be my session bitch
I may be misjudging the motivation, sure. Judging people is always dicy, especially people you've never met...
But people who treat sessions as an exclusive activity vs an inclusive activity invite judgement.
# Posted on April 3rd 2006 by HighlandSun
Re: Be my session bitch
As I tried to say (with too many words) it's largely a matter of perspective. Elitist, or just sticking to high standards? Too fast, or just perceived that way by someone with less experience? It's really impossible to say exactly where to draw the line.
Also, sometimes people of great expertise put on a gruff exterior as a defense mechanism against people whose enthusiasm turns out to be short-lived.
I try (not always successfully) to remember that it's not about me, it's about the music. I'm just a guy trying to play a little better than I did yesterday, because I like the music.
# Posted on April 3rd 2006 by mickray
Re: Be my session bitch
If I arrive at a new session and people are unsmiling ,unfriendly, and "elitist",( yes, I,ve been to one of those in Seattle!) I realize that I,ve come to the wrong place,), no matter how skillful the players, or how" Irish" they might be, music isn,t about exclusivity. Unfortunately Irish music gets a bad reputation due to this kind of behavior. All you "elitists out there, learn to smile when you play ,it might help!
# Posted on April 3rd 2006 by mandobrynley
Re: Be my session bitch
If I believed in "elitist" sessions I'd have to play on my own.
Grow up, Breandan is right, just go along and play what you play, without ruining the night. Most people should have a fair idea of their own capabilities.
I mean, I'm not going to arrive at a tunes session with my mandolin, but I could bring it as my sole instrument to a songs night.
# Posted on April 3rd 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Be my session bitch
To answer some of howsshecutting's initial post:
Yes, of course, these are genuine gripes, some of which I and various others have expressed over time. Some of the same gripes may be directed to me. eg, doing the same old warhorses week in week out with no sign of improvement. I could say you can't improve on perfection, but too many people have suffered my attempts at box and flute playing to know that doesn't relate to me. But I've not been able to practice anywhere near as much as a few years ago, due to family commitments. So I can see it from both sides.
As for the speed freaks and ego creeps, Breandan has it right. Everyone else too - great points. Basically you need to find a session that is right for you - and another thing, maybe I've got it wrong here, but yes when you enter a new session, be humble, gentle, compliant - to a certain degree...but never be afraid. Have self respect. As well as respect for the others ( a given.)
On another slant, last Thursday at our local sesh there was a healthy representation of the regulars...if it needs to be defined as per the above criteria, it was recently categorised as Level B2a in the Monthly Report by the Lewisham and Catford Pub Session Constabulary which is defined as "on a general level, intermediate with a sufficiently regular smattering of advanced players, both visitors and regulars." So there you have it. We're somewhere in the upper half of the second division of the British Session League. We have a few fixtures still to run, but they're home matches so we should be OK.
As I was saying, this last sesh at the Blythe was composed of a core of regular players of the ubiquitous Level B2a intermediate variety, but there were numerous new players along. Probably ranging from Level B3 down to Dminor, with some accidentals thrown in. These were formed of two clusters. The clusters thus had a two tailed spatial distribution. The newbies were randomly distributed. No conflict was observed between either group.
In fact it was probably one of the nicest most easy going sessions there for a long time. The oldies weren't worried that it was going to be overrun by newbies, weren't worried about what the governor would have thought. And the newbies, being respectful of the music, knew when to give the session back to the regulars.
# Posted on April 3rd 2006 by Alf Tupper
Re: Be my session bitch
You must be due a quality audit Danny, better get your tunes in order.
# Posted on April 3rd 2006 by Bren
Re: Be my session bitch
I don't think there's ever an excuse for being impolite or unfriendly right off the bat, but I also think it would help if people who complain about elitists looked at things from the elitists' point of view, and why some might be defensive about some sessions.
For many of them, their session is an artistic endeavor. They are artists, striving, often under difficult conditions, to create something very specific. The fact that they are doing it in a public place may mislead others into thinking there is a lot of flexibility in their desired result, when there actually isn't. They can feel very real disppointment when their effort is derailed. I'm not talking about a tune here or there -- I'm talking about a real, general shift in style, in repertoire, or in quality. Typically, they can't express that to a person who is interfering with their process (that would come under the heading of talking sh*te), so either they suffer silently or they act churlish, and sometimes they become paranoid and totally, pre-emptively, exclusive.
Of course some people are just jerks. Or they are kids who really don't want any old fogeys cramping their style and their flirtations. Or oldsters who don't want to be annoyed by a load of faddish, gimmick-y (or just unfamiliar) tunes. But anyway, they still don't have to play with anyone they don't want to play with.
On the other hand, there are sessions that are more community-oriented, and they are usually led by convivial, kind-hearted, generous, encouraging people -- at least they are for a few hours a week! I actually think the motivation of those people is a lot more mysterious and interesting than the motivation of the elitists.
# Posted on April 4th 2006 by 54321
Re: Be my session bitch
I think it's a question of priorities. The people you're talking about see the music as a way of bringing a small community of people together and as an excuse to get together and have a chat and a laugh over a free beer. They see the "creation of art" aspect as less important. Their motives probably aren't as mysterious as you think, well, less mysterious than the name "54321" anyway
# Posted on April 4th 2006 by Dow
Re: Be my session bitch
Sorry -- I ran out of steam and didn't express myself clearly.
I shouldn't have written "mysterious," because I didn't mean that the motivation of the non-elitist leaders is unfathomable. Some of the most joyful and funniest moments of my life --musicaI or otherwise -- have been in this sort of community-orientated session.
I only meant to draw attention to people who "could" be elitist, based on the quality of their playing, but instead are open and inclusive, spending time playing with people whose music they can't honestly be that excited about, as sounds per se. They are balancing lots of "extra-musical" considerations and cope with issues of group happiness and standards and goals and acceptable behaviour in a more nuanced way, with more generosity, than "include/exclude." To play music -- weekly -- for reasons other than the quality of the sound you create ... that partakes a bit in mystery -- the good kind. Cheers to them.
# Posted on April 4th 2006 by 54321
Re: Be my session bitch
Hmm, I understood what you said, but I think it still boils down to the personality and priorities of the individual - in other words, what they find fulfilling. Look at it another way. You talk about quality players who "could" be elitist. Why not turn that around and see it as elitist players who "could" be more open and inclusive? Why should there be an assumption that quality players can be assumed to be elitist by default? Shouldn't we expect a bit more from skilled players as human beings? Surely the whole point of music that is acquired by aural transmission *is* generosity in *giving* tunes and playing *together*. Maybe it's these mysterious un-elitist players who can see the whole picture and can see past the "art" of it. These days we have near perfect recordings of this music performed by brilliant musicians, and it's perhaps because of that that many of us see this purely as an art form to perfect, and nothing more. Unfortunately I think that view causes you to be blinkered from other facets of the music that are equally if not more rewarding for the soul. And I think that's a great shame.
# Posted on April 4th 2006 by Dow
Re: Be my session bitch
I just posted this poem on a more recent thread "To me this is what it's all about"
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/9671
I don't think the Fiddler of Dooney was an elitist in the sense that he wanted to keep his music to himself and a small circle of like-minded friends. Rather, he wanted to share his music with others so that they too would enjoy it, play it, dance to it, etc.
# Posted on April 4th 2006 by Stewart
Re: Be my session bitch
My session bitch is this: whenever a guitarist sings a song and leaves his electronic tuner switched on, surely he can actually see when he is singing bum notes. Why doesn't he stop? Or take singing lessons? Eh? Eh? Grrrrr
# Posted on April 4th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Be my session bitch
Don't get me started, Conán(!)
This is an interesting thread indeed...
In my opinion, this elitism thing is an inevitable result of playing music in open/semi-open sessions. If the music is not an organic process of bringing people into the tradition and nurturing them so that the tradition continues and grows, then some of those those who are at the top may have no incentive to play below their level. Without that supportive environment to grow in, learners inevitably batten on to any better player who will tolerate them. After a while, good players may well get a bit fed up with providing musical support for a load of wannabees, and may justifiably become a bit standofish towards any new people who approach, until they prove themselves. This is quite understandable. The trouble is that BECAUSE they are the best players, others see this as being the way that good players behave, and emulate it, and frequently the most boorish players are not the elite, but their acolytes - those who have winkled their way into the inner circle, and want to keep things like that. The idea that it's alright to give someone the cold shoulder because you don't like the way they are playing, rather than engaging with them, is maybe also a symptom of the general speeding up of life. People feel there just isn't time to waste a whole precious evening doing something like helping someone else out rather than playing at the level they want to. The cold shoulder thing is a symptom of an inability to communicate in a constructive manner. I must confess that I've been in sessions where we've done this simply because no-one wants to bothered be the one who spends the rest of the evening trying to steer a miscreant in the right direction(!) I've come to the conclusion that it's lazy and self-centred and probably rather short sighted, so I try not to go along with it any more - there's always another evening and another session. I also think it's to do with larger sessions, and people who play together but dont really know each other, and to do with changes in the way the music is learned - by emulation rather than assimilation, and the gradual upping of the standard of playing in general.
But I think that the liveliness underpinning this debate shows that the music is in a healthy state. The fact that people have sessions which they can complain about - the fact that most of the complaints are about sessions that might be too GOOD rather than just dull and crap, is very telling!
# Posted on April 4th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Be my session bitch
Highland Sun/ Stewart, yeah Mc Grory's Culdaff is a great spot. Roisin Harrigan/Mc Grory is an excellent fiddler and lovely warm sharing person to boot. Mc Guinness's bar in the town used to be a great session pub also. You're getting me homesick
# Posted on April 4th 2006 by Strathfoyle
Re: Be my session bitch
If you want a private session, don't have it in a Public House. Simple.
# Posted on April 4th 2006 by Bren
Re: Be my session bitch
Dow, I have to try again. I agree utterly with you that people who are open and inclusive are so because they find it fulfilling. Isn't that what I was describing, and honoring? I was simply trying to describe the ways in which people differ, and thus the ways in which sessions differ.
I never said good players ought to be elitist. I was simply observing that they have the option of limiting who they play with in a way that others don't. I never said I was an elitist or that I only ever play for "pure art," what ever that is. Actually, I never said anything at all about my motivation, what I like, or who I'll play with won't.
I was describing what I know to be the feelings of some fine musicians. I don't think they are being bad citizens of Irish music. If their well goes dry, they won't have anything to share. They are trying to reach a zone, just like all of us. Your zone may include a lot of human feeling and interaction. Theirs might be the neurological stimulation of a certain kind of music. Someone else's might be getting drunk and singing Dad's favorite song. Or getting stoned and playing only D minor tunes. And people's "zones," if I can extend the metaphor, shift over time. Young turks can turn into beloved elder statesmen, and convivial folks can turn into old curmudgeons.
If you find yourself in someone else's zone and it's not compatible, have a beer and look elsewhere, don't denounce the people who differ from you.
# Posted on April 4th 2006 by 54321
Re: Be my session bitch
Snapshot:
I recently attended a Seattle, Sunday afternoon session, after spending a week at Friday Harbor with some incredibly talented players of ITM from Ireland and all over. I wouldn't say the sessions at Friday Harbor had "session leaders" but that's not to say they were absent of leadership by the strong players. But 'session leader' wasn't treated at all like some kind of a position. Most of the time the strongest players were the most relaxed about the whole experience.
The session in Seattle was quite a different thing. The session was already on when I got there alone. I stood with my flute case and felt a little invisible - no one invited me to play. A lady having her lunch advised me to push right in, so reluctantly I did one of those awkward "is it okay for me to sit in" things. My first mistake was in failing to realize that this session moved from player to player in a circle and, after a bit, when someone played one jig and were done - I started another. I noticed a few eyes darting about, but they joined in. Right after that I saw the pattern and waited for the leader to call on me, and when she said, "We go in a circle here." I confessed I'd picked up on that immediately upon starting that jig. Understanding the dynamics at our own session, I wasn't about to approach this session without respect for whatever these people had.
It was a mix of players, covering a wide range of ages and abilities. Some were proficient, some appeared to be beginners, or perhaps just didn't work that hard, and a couple seemed new to their instruments. The music wasn't particularly good, but the punters and players were having a good time. I knew most of the tunes that were started and particularly enjoyed supporting a young fiddle player get through a set she likely played much better when alone. I didn't stay till the bitter end, but I made a point of enjoying it for what it was. I don't know if I'd attend every week if I lived in Seattle, but I enjoyed this particular experience.
I have attended other sessions in Seattle where people who arrived late seemed very concerned that I was in "their spot." I wasn't even aware Irish musicians spent time with Carlos Casteneda before that - but I always yeild to the existing culture - that is if I can just pick up on it. It was weird to me then, that the whole vibe seemed to have me playing about as poorly as possible. But that came from inside my head, no one could make me play as crap as that but me, even as a (then)beginner.
At our session it is impossible to walk in and not be welcomed. It just ain't gonna happen. But that's us at our session. I've even seen people tolerate a noodler for about two tunes in the interest preserving the idea that we're all one big happy family.
# Posted on April 4th 2006 by Stevie C
Re: Be my session bitch
"people who arrived late seemed very concerned that I was in 'their spot.'"
Session regulars (hosts, anchors etc.) like to sit next to each other so they can hear each other -- it's as simple as that. They also are likely to be friends and enjoy sitting next to one another because it's a social event as well. At our local session the hosts sit on or near the bench along the wall, and visitors fill in around the table. The hosts rotate, so sometimes I'm on the bench, but when visiting someone else's session I sit wherever there's room around the table. When I'm hosting with my pals and a punctual visitor sits on the bench or in a favored seat next to it -- I'll tell them that so and so is sitting there -- eventhough they might not have arrived yet. This isn't rocket science, and it certainly doesn't mean the session is "elitist."
# Posted on April 4th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Be my session bitch
I disagree PB. If you were to politely point out that the bench is the SESSION LEADER'S SEAT (in golden italics)before you cast the intruder into outer darkness would be one thing,but to say that the seat in question was reserved for So&so (who couldn't be bothered to show up on time ) who might want to sit there when (if) he (or she) ever condescends to show up is about the same as saying "So&so is important and you are not". It might be true, but it's elitist to say so.
Being "very concerned" that someone is in their spot. I wouldn't call elitist. Arrogant, ego-centric, childish, & rude, but not neccessarily elitist.
I'm one to talk:
I have to bring my own stool since the chairs are too low and comfortable to play in. It's tax season, so the proffessionals are on haitus. I sometimes play alone (since I'm there anyway). The punters are fabulous tho'...
# Posted on April 4th 2006 by Owell Mabee
Re: Be my session bitch
So let me see if I understand you, Owell. So I show up to host a session with a couple of pals (fiddle and guitar/banjo) and I find a couple of visitors who arrived early (often happens) and I sit on the bench and the visitors sit on the bench next to me, and in the nearest chair -- and I'm supposed to just let this be. Then a couple of more people show up and sit in the adjoining seats, and when the two people I came to the pub to play tunes with show up -- they end up sitting across the table from me. Then for the rest of the night I can hear the whistle player and bouzouki guy right next to me better than the people I came to play tunes with in the first place... and I can hardly hear them at all. And this is how it's supposed to go or else I'm being an "elitist"?
What that would mean is that I couldn't hone in to what the people I'm hosting the session with, and that I can hardly talk to them let alone share suggestions of tunes to play etc. And if I reserve the seats next to me for the co-hosts... I'm "elitist"?
All I can gather is that y'all down there in Texas have some strange ideas about what happens at sessions. Almost every time I see some unusual session MO I'll look at the person's profile and their in Texas. (This happened just today on another thread in this forum.) Whatever you guys want sessions to be like down there is fine -- down there. But don't expect the rest of us to follow your example.
# Posted on April 4th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Be my session bitch
The sessions that i have been attending for near over four months, i've only seen one complaint, and that was from a friend of mine who does indead like to play fast as he is a bodran player (and really good one too) But his annoyence was when we had a large number (about twenty five or so) and three illien pipers, and one was just playing all these slow airs, one after another. That left him to play and one or two others. But the rest of use just sat there looking stupid.
But for all the other times that i have been to sessions, i've not seen elietes things. Tunes sometimes are sloppy, but every one just alughs it off. All in all, the two i attend regularly are extremily welcoming to newbies, and are very friendly, and yes, want to drink. but they don't care where they sit. Nor do they care about playing tunes over andover. Every so often we get a few famous players, and they too are firendly and open. Also, every so often it is a little more sturctured as to what tunes are being played, but that usually happens because one of the more better players just learned a new tune, and wants to share it with the other who are also eager to learn it. So it might get played six or seven times in a night.
Most of the tunes we play are on the edge fringes of tunes that are traditional. Though there are the ocassional ones that pop in.
All in all, i have no bitches. But i am sure some have to bitch about my three pints being just a bit too much....(loud singing in the bathroom)\
Ravyn
# Posted on April 5th 2006 by Ravyn
Re: Be my session bitch
Interesting thoughts PB. I didn't catch that Owell was saying that. And yes, I know I'm from Texas and it's one of those wierd places where we like people to feel welcome. I rarely go to sessions to play just with certain people. There's a lot I can feel that I can learn from strangers. If I only want to be able to hear certain people then I'll go play at their house with just them.
Not to mention that Owell made exceptions for the seat being reserved for the Session leader, maybe with tongue planted firmly in cheek but he made that concession anyways. If you and your friends co-host the session then it doesn't hurt to say that ya'll prefer to sit together. But there does seem to be an almost Baptist like tendency to cling to given seats. And nothing makes people feel less welcome then being asked to clear a chair that belongs to so-and-so especially if that person doesn't bother to show up.
What's wrong with making people feel welcome? Why do we have to have assigned seating? Isn't that something left behind in college at the latest?
So if the "Texas" idea of a session is to sit where you want and just have fun then I'll stick with that . . . and ya'll can have your assigned seats.
# Posted on April 5th 2006 by musicfan
Re: Be my session bitch
"...the same as saying "So&so is important and you are not". It might be true, but it's elitist to say so..."
Does "elitist" mean "honest"? Does it mean a willingness to state the obvious?
When at a session, as musicians, (but absolutely not as *people*), some people *are* more important than others. If I joined in a barnraising, I would not be as important as a person who knew something about building, had rounded up the material, and drawn up some plans. My generous impulse, my goodwill, and my sweat and effort might be equal to others, but I simply would not be as valuable to the effort. My proper place would be on the periphery, eagerly doing whatever the organizers asked me to do, picking up nails, or what ever it is they need done at barnraisings ...
# Posted on April 5th 2006 by 54321
Re: Be my session bitch
54321: the analogy is a bit strained. If the designer/planner is late to the barnraising, I don't think anyone will start without 'em. If a session "leader" is late to a session, then it seems to me they're no longer in the lead, are they?
And again - if you want to play *your* tunes with *your* associates, do that in one of *your* private homes. If you're playing an *open* session in public, then be open. If it's not open, then call it what it is - a gig, with occasional approved guests.
Phantom Button - the obvious corrollary to your statement: if you're surrounded by strangers and can't hear your buddies across the table from you, then flipped around - if you're surrounded by your buddies you can't hear the strangers across the table from you. If indeed all you want to hear is your buddies, and not the strangers, then again, that's of course your right, but that isn't an open session, and you may as well just tell all the visitors to stay home next time or at least leave their instruments at home, because you don't care to hear them.
# Posted on April 5th 2006 by HighlandSun
Re: Be my session bitch
Highland, what Jack is talking about is a well run session. It is almost always better to have good players sit closer together so that they can hear each other. This forms a nice core for the session and lifts it higher. It has little or nothing to do with being friendly or not.
Also, pubs vary and sometimes the spaces are constrained. I think that is where the significant seating issue comes into play. Now, our sessions are in larger establishments and are sort of a round table affair. There really is no vantage point, so the physical focus of the session may change from week to week. Thus, there are no saved seats as such.
And adjunct from this is that we do not feel the need to "invite" people into the session. If you show up in the bar, there is plenty of space. Just sit down.
(And Ravyn, I have no idea what you are on about there. Are we attending the same sessions?)
# Posted on April 5th 2006 by Jode
Re: Be my session bitch
musicfan says, "If you and your friends co-host the session then it doesn't hurt to say that ya'll prefer to sit together."
Uh... that was exactly the point -- I do explain that. I'm continually amazed how asking people that are visiting the session if we can sit together means that we're somehow "unwelcoming." I happen to know we are very welcoming, and it's the visitors who tell me that time and time again.
There are some visitors that seem to think that any session in a public place automatically means that it has to conform to some rule that says all sessions are open free-for-alls, and should cater to anyone at any level, and that it belongs to all the ITM players of the world who happen to drop in. And if that session tries to be anything else -- then they should stay home and have their sessions behind closed doors. (HighlandSun makes this point)
I'll say this again as I have many times in this forum. A session is whatever the people who are starting it, hosting, anchoring etc., want it to be. If you're a visitor then it's up to you to join their session -- it's not up to them to change their session to suit your expectations. In other words -- watch and listen... figure out if it's the sort of session you might like to join... and if it is -- approach it with your manners firmly intact.
If it isn't your cup of tea -- then you should snipe it on Internet message boards and denounce everyone there as being unwelcoming and elitist.
# Posted on April 5th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Be my session bitch
My session bitch is novices or begginers that come to advanced sessions and expect people to accept them as equal players. Guess what? when you've put the years and years of methodic practise down like i have instead of pulling your instrument out once every 2 weeks if you're lucky, then come talk to me. Just because you own an instrument and you show up and have some interest in irish traditional music doesn't mean you can jump in at any session you want. when you start out playing at sessions ...you sit in the back and learn whatever you can, eventually after years of tireless practise and dedication you get better and hey presto you get good enough to play in better sessions.
# Posted on April 5th 2006 by Flute_toot
Re: Be my session bitch
54321, I'm a bit shocked by your very defensive-sounding reply to my post.
"I never said good players ought to be elitist. I was simply observing that they have the option of limiting who they play with in a way that others don't. I never said I was an elitist or that I only ever play for "pure art," what ever that is. Actually, I never said anything at all about my motivation, what I like, or who I'll play with won't."
Did I say you were an elitist?
No.
Did I say anything about your motivation?
No.
I also never used the phrase "pure art". I used the adverb "purely" to mean "simply" or "solely".
Is it the "blinkered" thing that bothered you? When I said "causes you to be blinkered", I meant "you" in the sense of "one", not "you personally". Why would I mean "you"?! I've never even fecking met you and I don't know anything about you. I was trying to have a neutral discussion. As in, I was hoping that there was the merest chance that that might still be possible on the discussion board of this website, but clearly it's not.
I'm not going to say anymore for fear of being misquoted again.
# Posted on April 5th 2006 by Dow
Re: Be my thesession.org bitch
This is great! I love to watch people bitching at each other. It's like Séamus Tansey writing open letters to the Irish Times.
As usual, the same misconceptions, misquotes and mistakes as ever. It strikes me that if anyone actually attended someone else's session they would find it's not that different from their own. I'd rather be reading this than actually doing work though.
# Posted on April 5th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Be my session bitch
Was just about to say the same. It's more Bitch Session than Session Bitch.
# Posted on April 5th 2006 by Bren
Re: Be my session bitch
Yeah but it would be lovely if, just once in a while, just sometimes, even if it was only like once a year, we could have a normal, sensible discussion without deliberate misunderstandings, name-calling and tantrums.
# Posted on April 5th 2006 by Dow
Re: Be my session bitch
Dow, please dont worry about what others say about you when they are obviously missing the point.
I for one have not contributed to the discussion for that very reason (as observed on the Ciff and fipple site).
You are entitled to your opinion and I enjoy reading your point of views.
If someone wants to read your offerings and take them up the wrong way, LET THEM. Their problem with literacy is not something you can rectify. By the way, that was an observation on my part and not a personal attack on any individual.
# Posted on April 5th 2006 by blas
Re: Be my session bitch
Dow -- You're right: I did think you meant "me" when you wrote "you," I guess because you addressed me directly earlier, and since you switched from "we" in the previous sentence to "you" . I re-read your post, it does come across differently if the "you" is not "me."
Since we don't know each other and we're not in each other's presence, all I have to go by is the words on the screen.
I put the "pure art" in there because I was feeling self-conscious about my use of "art " and "artist" in my earlier post. I know it's never only about the pure sound.
There's an idea that the pub sessions in Ireland and England, or New York, for that matter, were open and welcoming back in the good old days before people lost sight of what is important. I admit that I wasn't there (I've only been playing Irish music for 17 years), but I have heard plenty of first-hand accounts of limited invitation, exclusion, criticism, and downright meanness.
Honestly, I have to laugh at the idea that being on time to a session is the most important factor in where you get to sit.
I think I'll sign off.
# Posted on April 5th 2006 by 54321
Re: Be my session bitch
Yr absolutely right Jack, people in Texas do it differently. We tend to view a session as a social function and only do it for the "craic". There is at least one session in Dallas and one in Austin that you'd feel completely at home at. Hateful, nasty people.....stranger wouldn't be welcome if they brought in a keg of stout.
I'll admit I was yanking yr chain a bit. I'm not really calling you an elitist, I'm illustrating why someone might think so.
Actually in yr position I'd probably sit down and take a few minutes to explain about the local culture of this session and why we do things the way we do them. That may be your method, but I have seen it done the other way far, far, too often.
I travel a lot and have often been berated for taking the wrong seat, or breaking some secret, private protocol. I quit joining strange sessions. I 'll go to the bar and drink, If I like what I hear, I might introduce myself 2nd visit (might not) and ask if I can sit in on the 3rd (might not).
y'see: I _AM_ an elitist. I'm not even going to bother dragging my fiddle in and casting my pearls until you have proved that yr session is up to my standards.
While were batting around stoopid generalizations ( I'll be happy to hi-jack this hi-jack). I have spent a good deal of time on the west coast (usa) and visited several countries and if I were task with the quest of finding an elitist, San Francisco would be a dandy place to start
OM ("I'm only in it for the craic")
# Posted on April 5th 2006 by Owell Mabee
Re: Be my session bitch
Flute-toot
In my opinion Flute-toot is dead on right!, Nice post!
It's the year 2006 and so many people out there want automatic respect but they don't eant to earn it. They al want to feel important and to be heard and they have delusions about their own talents. As far as I'm concerned unless you've put your time in then you you need to follow the session leader and get overyourself if you arent treated like a freaking virtuoso after two weeks with a bodran. People should vondect them selves in a manner that indicates one and only one thing....that you love the music and RESPECT the tradition. That means shut up, have fun and be polite and take whatever scraps the heavy hitters give you.
# Posted on April 5th 2006 by Chef Paul
Re: Be my session bitch
Well, I took several verbal kickings on the one thread, a while ago, for expressing what chef paul and flute toot have just expressed.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/7902
I'm glad I stood firm, though. I'm not even that good, but I know enough to hold my own. Strange how these things come round again in different guises.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Alf Tupper
Re: Be my session bitch
Owell you ain't an elitist. You wouldn't have let me come and play if you were . . .
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by musicfan
Re: Be my session bitch
That was a walk down memory lane there, Danny. That was the thread I offered an anecdote about the time I learned the hard way how where you sit might be cheeky. I'll repost it hear for our friends on this thread who might think Charlie Piggot and Johnny Moynahan are "elitists."
"I learned about this the hard way back in 1990 in Galway. I arrived at a session hosted by Charlie Piggot. I was sitting on the window bench with Charlie on one side and my wife on the other. A man came in with a bouzouki and motioned that he would like to have my seat. I said to him that I wanted to remain next to my wife. Charlie said, "Come on, we'll squeeze you in." and the man replied, "That's ok Charlie -- I know my place." and he sat on the other side of the fire. After about 2 minutes I realized it was Johnny Moynahan -- the other host. I felt like the clueless yank that I was, but quietly got up, apologized and switched seats with Johnny. It was a great night of tunes once I got over my embarrassment."
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Be my session bitch
Chef Paul, you had to pick on a bodhran, didn't you?
I am the session leader. Want to know why? Albeit on a humble drum, but I am at the top in my chosen field, you won't get any better.
Now how are those after two weeks on a flute/fiddle etc etc etc? Even after years and years, are they at the top?
How about you, Chef?
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Be my session bitch
PB - I certainly never said not to move or request for someone to move if they were the session leader. We said it is rather elitist to ask someone to move for someone who hasn't shown up . . . at least that's how I read it . . .
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by musicfan
Re: Be my session bitch
I think this thread is ridiculous and so are "sessions" especially the "well run sessions" with "strong leaders".
Jaysus
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by JackMurphy
Re: Be my session bitch
Well, Jack the Lad, you're entitled to your opinion.
But maybe the "strong leaders" I referred to are a lot like your mentor Steve Jones, helping to steer beginners in the right direction. I don't think that's so ridiculous.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by mickray
Re: Be my session bitch
Hehe, I don't think Steve would take kindly to being called my mentor, nor is he.
Perhaps I'm trying to steer beginners in the right direction with my post as well. Everybody needs a few good words every once in a while but, just maybe, sessions (especially like the ones some of you might run) are the problem not the solution.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by JackMurphy
Re: Be my session bitch
"PB - I certainly never said not to move or request for someone to move if they were the session leader. We said it is rather elitist to ask someone to move for someone who hasn't shown up . . . at least that's how I read it . . ."
The way I read it, and what I've been responding to is the idea that the person that hasn't yet showed up is a co-host. That was the case in my anecdote as well. We had already begun playing tunes before Johnny showed up. I wish Charlie would have said, "Save this spot here for Johnny." Then I wouldn't have had the awkward encounter when he arrived.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Be my session bitch
Right, now Murphy is the end-all expert on sessions after moving here from the Sierra Nevada mountains and playing in them for a couple of years. It's amazing what you've accomplished in your brief time playing ITM, Murphy -- first you figured out that everyone between the age of 30 and 60 has ruined the music, and now you're telling us that sessions are the problem. Oh wise one... what other gems are you keeping from us?
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Be my session bitch
mentor: a trusted counselor or guide. (American Heritage Dictionary)
"... luckily I was privy to some advice and guidance at the right time from people like Steve Jones..." (Jack Murphy)
But don't sweat it--back when I was 22, I also wondered why everybody else was so dumb. ;>}
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by mickray
Re: Be my session bitch
Wow, PB/Gilder, that brush must be pretty worn out from painting me into a corner so many times. Perhaps, just once you might stay out of this discussion so it doesn't become another Gilder vs Murphy thread. I don't post after all of your "errant" posts to disagree, so you might try it for once as well.
Opposing viewpoints shouldn't hurt and they can lead to a more informed populace.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by JackMurphy
Re: Be my session bitch
Ah yes, the old "when you're older you'll understand" patronizing card is out again I see. You're right, the last thing we need is new ideas from a possibly fresh thinker.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by JackMurphy
Re: Be my session bitch
Oh, of course... so sorry, Murphy. I'll stay out of this thread that I've been participating in since it started now that you've showed up. How rude of me to butt in... I'll go away now.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Be my session bitch
JackMurphy, I'm sure you mean well, in your own way.
But take another look at your first comment in this thread. Not much there, to inform the populace.
Your new ideas might get a better reception if you explained them a bit more clearly, without the sneering.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by mickray
Re: Be my session bitch
Oh, of course, you don't like to be told where to sit and when to pl... errrr... I mean when to post and when not to. How rude of me to sit dow.... errr...., I'll go away now.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by JackMurphy
Re: Be my session bitch
When you go to San Francisco,
Be sure to wear
Some flowers in your hair ♩ ♩. . .
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by joesmith
Re: Be my session bitch
Hahahaha That was is the 60s,Laitch... they didn't have sessions here then I don’t think. Actually, contrary to what Murphy would like you to believe -- we have great sessions here -- great fun. Everyone gets along for the most part; don't let Murphy's twisted slant on things influence your impression.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Be my session bitch
diddley di
diddley diddley dum
om mani padme hum
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by joesmith
Re: Be my session bitch
Hey, do you guys know that tune, "InnaGoddaDivida"?
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Be my session bitch
No, but if you post it, I'll be sure to learn it. ;>}
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by mickray
Re: Be my session bitch
Here it is: http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/blythe/407/ina_godda_da_vida-iron_butterfly.mid
Very popular tune around here in the late 60s.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Be my session bitch
Hmm I think I prefer:
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/ceilihouse/
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Alf Tupper
Re: Be my session bitch
Ha - I love that song.
Its in the movie Manhunter.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Be my session bitch
That would be our problem then. Everything I've written has been pertaining to saving seats for a person yet to arrive who is not a session host or co-host. Gotta love the internet and the ease with which stuff is misinterpreted!
And Jack - please don't go giving those of us on the boards who are younger a bad reputation. I happen to like sessions, well-run or not, and I really like being able to follow a strong leader.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by musicfan
Re: Be my session bitch
Where's your session? I love sturrin sh*t with session wreckers. It's even more fun if they cry!
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by John McCartin
Re: Be my session bitch
Hay! They've edited the "i" out of my sh*t!
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by John McCartin
Re: Be my session bitch
Bullsh*te isn't it?!
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Be my session bitch
B*u*l*l*s*h*i*t*e, I meant to say.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Be my session bitch
Phantom
Sorry for the delayed response, but I've been busy. Not to kill your supposition-based response to me, but the people who arrived late were not session leaders. I'd have gotten that. It must have been the social thing, 'cause it wasn't the ability thing, or some deep respect for the quality of the music, they hadn't heard anyone play.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Stevie C
Re: Be my session bitch
PB (Mr Gilder )
I want to respectfully and formally apologise for starting a pesshing contest w/ you and being unable to finish. I knew, in the back of my mind that I really don't have that much playtime. So, sorry, I have to bow out. Maybe we can try again in a few months.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Owell Mabee
Re: Be my session bitch
Thanks for the link to Ceilihouse, Danny. I was looking for that...
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Owell Mabee
Re: Be my session bitch
musicfan -- If you review the thread, Stevie C. brought up the subject of seating, I suggested the reserved seating might be for hosts, anchors etc., and Owell took me to task on reserved seating issue. Now I realize that the idea that the seats were for session hosts got tangled up into all of that, and that an acceptation was made to a certain effect, but the emphasis seamed to be that anyone saving a seat for someone else is considered rude and unwelcoming. I suppose if you saved a seat for someone that never shows up might be a problem, but friends save seats for their pals that they know are coming all the time. Sometimes I'll text my pals at sessions I'm headed to and ask them to save a seat for me, and when I get there and everyone's wedged around the table -- there's my seat -- right next to my pal. Am I being rude and unwelcoming if I do that? Should that be illegal?
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Be my session bitch
When I reviewed the thread and saw Stevie's comment that the reserved seating wasn't for session leaders and Owell's first comment that maybe it would be ok if it was explained that the spots were for the session leaders and I agree with that.
I'm not sure that I think it's neccesarily 'illegal' to have friends save seats but at times it could come across as rude if the session is always crowded and other people have to sit at the outside and watch an empty seat just sit there until the person it is being saved for bothers to show up.
I definitely understand if it's an emergency but making a habit out of saving seats does become slightly elitist. It's elitist in that saving seats for someone who is late gives off the attitude of that they are more important to the other people (typically the ones saving seats, which probably is true if they are friends) and that they are going to be more of a contribution then the people who are there on time. If it isn't elitist then it is at least more then slightly Southern Baptist.
Note that session leaders are always an exception. They have the right to be elitist to the rest of us mere mortals.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by musicfan
Re: Be my session bitch
Yea... I guess to me the session is kind of like riding in a bus, there are the scheduled drivers, and the passengers are along for the ride. When I'm one of the scheduled drivers I like the people who are scheduled to drive with me all up in the driver's seats. When I'm a passenger it doesn't matter where I sit, but I do like to sit next to my pals. Saving seats for your pals shouldn't be a problem, but if they don't get on the bus at all it definitely becomes awkward.
Riding in buses without drivers can be fun too, but you might spend some time in the ditch.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Be my session bitch
". . . it could come across as rude if the session is always crowded and other people have to sit at the outside and watch an empty seat just sit there . . . "
Right you are, musicfan.
PB,
There's no reason for that to occur in Frisco. Not when the place is filled with stores that should be happy to sell lifelike inflatable dolls to musical ersatz "ugly gay guys". Go get one and spare the feelings of future session mates.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by joesmith
Re: Be my session bitch
At our Sunday session, there are two tables reserved. The four of us who are employed to be there sit with our backs to the wall, for a number of reasons not just musical, and visitors sit around us.
We sit in the same seats and formation, because we are paid to entertain we need to lead the session. That is fairly simple.
At other informal sessions, sit where you like, although cast a musical eye. Three bodhrans sitting together is asking for trouble.
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Be my session bitch
"Three bodhrans sitting together is asking for trouble."
I'm curious, Blissters... it has been established in this forum over and over that one bodhran is quite enough at any given session, and that if more than one player shows up -- they should trade off. How do you deal with this as a session leader who plays bodhran? Do you trade off with the visiting bodhranists? (Please don't tell me you all play at the same time or you'll lose all credibility)
# Posted on April 6th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Be my session bitch
Yeah, cause if you don't trade off we can harass you about being elitist!!!
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by musicfan
Re: Be my session bitch
I do whatever I want, because I am not bound by mythical "rules". I have no objection to three flutes, or fiddles, so I do not discriminate.
I agree that three bodhrans can be a bit much. We would not usually have more than two going at once. However as I am the best block of wood player in the world (sounds like bones) I sometimes use that to establish the rhythm.
It really all depends on how many are playing the tune.
# Posted on April 7th 2006 by bodhran bliss