Great ceilidh/folk ball last night. Some breton, some contra, bunch of bourrées and yer classic waltz/polka/scottische/mazurka
Just the time for a public service announcement.
If you're playing for dancers, particularly a ball where there will be loads of beginners, the rhythm has to be spot on and even exagerated if necessary. (At least half the waltzes you play, everybody should be able to hear 123 123 123 in their head with no trouble)
Note to classically trained violinists: If I want the blue danube waltz, I know where to find it.
Be very careful playing dances you don't know how to dance yourself / that belong to a tradition you are not familiar with.
When playing a contradance that requires "jigs" (as opposed to some specific tune), make sure you pick a set that matches the dance well. If it's all rackety tackety, that's fine, but once you get quarter-quaver or dotted quaver bits, they could be anything between perfect, really annoying or just plain confusing to novices (kesh jig, I'm looking at you)
Did I mention something about spot on rhythm? If it's muddy, we won't enjoy it.
Oh and try to avoid messing up any tune changes by adding a beat, abruptly changing tempo or anything like that.
It drives me up the wall when musicians who've never been on a dance floor play for something like a contra dance.
A couple more things:
Don't go off on weird solos, especially ones that stray away from the original form of the music. A lot of times fiddlers will do that, and just noodling in the middle of a tune when they are the only one carrying the melody and it really throws off the dancers.
Jigs played for contra dances are to be played slower than you'd usually play them for a session.
Here's how I achieve the correct tempo for jigs at contra dances. Think of the speed the REELS are at -- tap your foot to it -- without changing the tempo that your foot's tapping, use it as the foot tap tempo for the jig. The jig will end up quite a bit slower than you'd normally play it, but it will be right for the dance.
Hey PB: Thanks! that's a great tip. In my limited experience, things always seem to get screwed up for a few bars when switching from reels to jigs, or vice-versa.
I was going to post this separately, but this seems as good a place as any: would anyone like to try to explain what the "lift" is? I've heard varying explanations, generally involving which notes to accent, which seems a little too formulaic. I'm one of those dreaded "...musicians who've never been on a dance floor", at least not for a while, and so "down there v " doesn't work for me.
Scuse my ignorance but whats a contra dance anyway? I've heard it a few times but no one has ever told me what it is and I cant say i've been to one either. Thanks in advance.
There is a very strong argument for insisting that musicians should dance first, beforing playing for one, so they understand the difference between session and dance playing.
Years ago a friend of mine was frustrated by the tempos required for the dance band we were in, and wanted to start a band playing at the speed he liked. I was roadying and dancing at the first gig his new band played, and it was undanceable, I had to ask him to take it down a bit. Even young people couldn't dance at the speed he was playing.
On the other hand, I've heard that there are groups who do dance irish set dances at session-speed. They must be fit, is all I can say.
All the early comments about rhythm and stresses are absolutely spot on. These tunes are, after all, intended for dancing first.
"These tunes are, after all, intended for dancing first." - Pete, that might have been the case for most tunes written before 1970, but since then, I think most tunes have probably been written for sessions and listening.
To answer your question kiwi, contra dance is an American form closely related to English country dancing that has its origins in the eastern U.S. It's done in longways sets "for as many as will". As the dance proceeds some couples progress down the set while others progress up the set. The figures tend to be less complicated than found in English country dancing and the music and dancing is usually more bouncy with lots of swinging. In lots of places in North America at least it's very popular because it's easy to learn and participate in, it's usually done to live music that people enjoy, and people can put some energy and their own flourishes into the dancing. Contra dance bands are traditionally underpinned by a strong chunk-a-chunk style piano and freely uses tunes (jigs & reels) from American old time, French-Canadian, English, Scottish, Irish, or Cape Breton traditions, but when played for contras I think the tunes take on a typical style, a little less ornamentation and a tendency to accent the beat before the first beat of the 8 bar sections. That pre-accent is nice for the dancers, giving them a little warning that the next 8 bar phrase is about to start and they'd better be ready to do the next figure. The dances go through many repetitions so it's good use medleys that last 6-8 minutes or so.
"There is a very strong argument for insisting that musicians should dance first, beforing playing for one, so they understand the difference between session and dance playing."
No there's not. How many sessions have you been to that have dancers in? If there's room to dance, it's too quiet. It's simply NOT dance music, and never has been since I started playing in the early 70s.
That's not to say it can't be dance music, but it's not SESSION music then. Dances are quite different from sessions, and I personally don't like playing for them.
Is that Jimmy Powers record still available, the one where he played specifically at dancing pace and rhythm?
"There is a very strong argument for insisting that musicians should dance first, beforing playing for one" - Hey Pete, by the time I'd finished dancing a Set, I'd be so bloo&y knackered, I'd have no energy left to play music!
"No there's not. How many sessions have you been to that have dancers in? If there's room to dance, it's too quiet. It's simply NOT dance music, and never has been since I started playing in the early 70s.
That's not to say it can't be dance music, but it's not SESSION music then. Dances are quite different from sessions, and I personally don't like playing for them."
You seem to be making the exact same argument as Guernsey Pete so I don't see why you are disagreeing with him. I think what both of y'all are saying (which I agree with myself) is that session music and dance music are not played the same way, and the person playing for them must know the difference. I think that the best way to know the difference is to have danced to good dance music and also play in sessions. Is this right, or am I misunderstanding you guys?
Playing for dances and playing in sessions is indeed different, but if you play for dancers your playing will gain more energy generally. Knowing how to get the music dancable gives more strength and meaning to your playing. At a session you have the option of playing a relaxed style that might not be suitable for dancing, but when you decide to let it rip -- you'll pack more punch.
The subject of this thread seemed to be more about what you need to know to play for dancers. There are definately things you need to know whether you're playing for contras, sets, or ceilis. But I recommend everyone have some experience doing this for the benefit of your over-all playing and understanding of the music.
"There is a very strong argument for insisting that musicians should dance first, beforing playing for one, so they understand the difference between session and dance playing."
Paul Ekrub - Perhaps you misread Guernsey Pete's statement (quoted above). What you say more-or-less re-inforces what he says (although I'm not quite sure what 'beforing' is). Like you, he points out that the music played in sessions is NOT (necessarily) the same as that played for dancing - and that musicians who play for dancing need to have some understanding of the dances they are playing for. And I agree entirely. That said, I sometimes play for dances and I am entirely lacking in co-ordination above the knuckles, so attempting to dance would just confuse me irretrievably.
Playing for dancers: reminder
Playing for dancers: reminder
Great ceilidh/folk ball last night. Some breton, some contra, bunch of bourrées and yer classic waltz/polka/scottische/mazurka
Just the time for a public service announcement.
If you're playing for dancers, particularly a ball where there will be loads of beginners, the rhythm has to be spot on and even exagerated if necessary. (At least half the waltzes you play, everybody should be able to hear 123 123 123 in their head with no trouble)
Note to classically trained violinists: If I want the blue danube waltz, I know where to find it.
Be very careful playing dances you don't know how to dance yourself / that belong to a tradition you are not familiar with.
When playing a contradance that requires "jigs" (as opposed to some specific tune), make sure you pick a set that matches the dance well. If it's all rackety tackety, that's fine, but once you get quarter-quaver or dotted quaver bits, they could be anything between perfect, really annoying or just plain confusing to novices (kesh jig, I'm looking at you)
Did I mention something about spot on rhythm? If it's muddy, we won't enjoy it.
Oh and try to avoid messing up any tune changes by adding a beat, abruptly changing tempo or anything like that.
Thank you
# Posted on March 19th 2006 by Tirno
Re: Playing for dancers: reminder
Up here ^ for thinkin', down there v for dancin'.
# Posted on March 19th 2006 by Bren
Re: Playing for dancers: reminder
thank you for posting this!!!
It drives me up the wall when musicians who've never been on a dance floor play for something like a contra dance.
A couple more things:
Don't go off on weird solos, especially ones that stray away from the original form of the music. A lot of times fiddlers will do that, and just noodling in the middle of a tune when they are the only one carrying the melody and it really throws off the dancers.
Jigs played for contra dances are to be played slower than you'd usually play them for a session.
# Posted on March 19th 2006 by fiddletreegypsy
Re: Playing for dancers: reminder
Here's how I achieve the correct tempo for jigs at contra dances. Think of the speed the REELS are at -- tap your foot to it -- without changing the tempo that your foot's tapping, use it as the foot tap tempo for the jig. The jig will end up quite a bit slower than you'd normally play it, but it will be right for the dance.
# Posted on March 19th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Playing for dancers: reminder
Hey PB: Thanks! that's a great tip. In my limited experience, things always seem to get screwed up for a few bars when switching from reels to jigs, or vice-versa.
I was going to post this separately, but this seems as good a place as any: would anyone like to try to explain what the "lift" is? I've heard varying explanations, generally involving which notes to accent, which seems a little too formulaic. I'm one of those dreaded "...musicians who've never been on a dance floor", at least not for a while, and so "down there v " doesn't work for me.
# Posted on March 20th 2006 by tomw
Re: Playing for dancers: reminder
Thanks for the sobering thought, Tirno; but our caller is so vicious she doesn't let us get away with any of that stuff.
# Posted on March 20th 2006 by oldstrings
Re: Playing for dancers: reminder
Scuse my ignorance but whats a contra dance anyway? I've heard it a few times but no one has ever told me what it is and I cant say i've been to one either. Thanks in advance.
# Posted on March 20th 2006 by kiwi
Re: Playing for dancers: reminder
Hey kiwi, take a look at this link for a contradance definition.
http://www.sbcds.org/contradance/whatis/#Def0
Definitions 3 and 4 sum it up for me.
# Posted on March 20th 2006 by ∅
Re: Playing for dancers: reminder
There is a very strong argument for insisting that musicians should dance first, beforing playing for one, so they understand the difference between session and dance playing.
Years ago a friend of mine was frustrated by the tempos required for the dance band we were in, and wanted to start a band playing at the speed he liked. I was roadying and dancing at the first gig his new band played, and it was undanceable, I had to ask him to take it down a bit. Even young people couldn't dance at the speed he was playing.
On the other hand, I've heard that there are groups who do dance irish set dances at session-speed. They must be fit, is all I can say.
All the early comments about rhythm and stresses are absolutely spot on. These tunes are, after all, intended for dancing first.
# Posted on March 20th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Playing for dancers: reminder
"These tunes are, after all, intended for dancing first." - Pete, that might have been the case for most tunes written before 1970, but since then, I think most tunes have probably been written for sessions and listening.
# Posted on March 20th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Playing for dancers: reminder
To answer your question kiwi, contra dance is an American form closely related to English country dancing that has its origins in the eastern U.S. It's done in longways sets "for as many as will". As the dance proceeds some couples progress down the set while others progress up the set. The figures tend to be less complicated than found in English country dancing and the music and dancing is usually more bouncy with lots of swinging. In lots of places in North America at least it's very popular because it's easy to learn and participate in, it's usually done to live music that people enjoy, and people can put some energy and their own flourishes into the dancing. Contra dance bands are traditionally underpinned by a strong chunk-a-chunk style piano and freely uses tunes (jigs & reels) from American old time, French-Canadian, English, Scottish, Irish, or Cape Breton traditions, but when played for contras I think the tunes take on a typical style, a little less ornamentation and a tendency to accent the beat before the first beat of the 8 bar sections. That pre-accent is nice for the dancers, giving them a little warning that the next 8 bar phrase is about to start and they'd better be ready to do the next figure. The dances go through many repetitions so it's good use medleys that last 6-8 minutes or so.
# Posted on March 20th 2006 by danceall
Re: Playing for dancers: reminder
"There is a very strong argument for insisting that musicians should dance first, beforing playing for one, so they understand the difference between session and dance playing."
No there's not. How many sessions have you been to that have dancers in? If there's room to dance, it's too quiet. It's simply NOT dance music, and never has been since I started playing in the early 70s.
That's not to say it can't be dance music, but it's not SESSION music then. Dances are quite different from sessions, and I personally don't like playing for them.
Is that Jimmy Powers record still available, the one where he played specifically at dancing pace and rhythm?
# Posted on March 20th 2006 by LastToFinish
Re: Playing for dancers: reminder
"There is a very strong argument for insisting that musicians should dance first, beforing playing for one" - Hey Pete, by the time I'd finished dancing a Set, I'd be so bloo&y knackered, I'd have no energy left to play music!
# Posted on March 20th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Playing for dancers: reminder
"No there's not. How many sessions have you been to that have dancers in? If there's room to dance, it's too quiet. It's simply NOT dance music, and never has been since I started playing in the early 70s.
That's not to say it can't be dance music, but it's not SESSION music then. Dances are quite different from sessions, and I personally don't like playing for them."
You seem to be making the exact same argument as Guernsey Pete so I don't see why you are disagreeing with him. I think what both of y'all are saying (which I agree with myself) is that session music and dance music are not played the same way, and the person playing for them must know the difference. I think that the best way to know the difference is to have danced to good dance music and also play in sessions. Is this right, or am I misunderstanding you guys?
# Posted on March 22nd 2006 by fiddletreegypsy
Re: Playing for dancers: reminder
Playing for dances and playing in sessions is indeed different, but if you play for dancers your playing will gain more energy generally. Knowing how to get the music dancable gives more strength and meaning to your playing. At a session you have the option of playing a relaxed style that might not be suitable for dancing, but when you decide to let it rip -- you'll pack more punch.
The subject of this thread seemed to be more about what you need to know to play for dancers. There are definately things you need to know whether you're playing for contras, sets, or ceilis. But I recommend everyone have some experience doing this for the benefit of your over-all playing and understanding of the music.
# Posted on March 22nd 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Playing for dancers: reminder
"There is a very strong argument for insisting that musicians should dance first, beforing playing for one, so they understand the difference between session and dance playing."
Paul Ekrub - Perhaps you misread Guernsey Pete's statement (quoted above). What you say more-or-less re-inforces what he says (although I'm not quite sure what 'beforing' is). Like you, he points out that the music played in sessions is NOT (necessarily) the same as that played for dancing - and that musicians who play for dancing need to have some understanding of the dances they are playing for. And I agree entirely. That said, I sometimes play for dances and I am entirely lacking in co-ordination above the knuckles, so attempting to dance would just confuse me irretrievably.
# Posted on March 22nd 2006 by CreadurMawnOrganig