Okay, you music historians, when did the term, “jig”, come to mean a tune in 6/8 or 9/8 or 12/8? In my classical guitar days, I played lots of pieces from the 16th through 18th century (in the 19th and 20th centuries, I rested) and every one I can think of that was called jig or gigue or giga was in another meter, like 2/4 or 3/4. Probably the best known is Kemp’s Jig, an Elizabethan lute tune that could almost pass as a polka today.
So jig/gigue/giga was apparently a fairly generic label for a long time. When did it become specific? Anybody? Anybody?
The earliest transcriptions I can recall of jigs in 6/8 time would be in the Geohegan Pastoral bagpipe tutor ca. 1746. There may be earlier works that feature that rhythmic innovation. Carolan was composing in the 1680s to the late 1730s, for instance, and many of his tunes are unmistakably transcribed in 6/8 rhythms; however, his stuff was not transcribed until the 1790s, more than 50 years after his death. I would guess that his compositions and 6/8 pieces in early piping literature would be indications of a general irish musical and dance fashion in the Irish ascendancy's "big houses" that favored compound rhythms. Perhaps the dance steps evolved and got more complicated, and the music changed along with the dance steps?
I have this feeling, in my water, that 6/8s have been around & popular for hundreds of years in France, long, long before they spread to England, Scotland & Ireland - but my water could be wrong ............................
James Oswald's "The Caledonian Pocket Companion" 12 volumes published from 1743-1759 has a lot of 6/8 versions of Reels called Gigas after the main tune.
Of course not Michael, but language evolves as do fashions in music in dance. Italian Gigues from the 16th and 17th centuries are very different from a 19th century irish jig. It is possible that before all the troubles in the 16th and 17th centuries that 6/8, 9/8, and 12/8 dance tunes existed in Ireland, and the English word "jig", an anglicized spelling of italian giga and french gigue, was arbitrarily applied to an indigenous dance form that had existed for centuries. We just DON' T KNOW, although I have a hunch and it's ONLY A HUNCH that the music we play today has nothing in common with the music of the medieval irish courts, let alone pre-christian ireland; it's just too similar to continenal dance music from the 17th and 18th centuries. It's no great leap of musical imagination to turn a 2/4 tune into a 6/8 tune, a 3/4 tune into a 9/8, or a 4/4 into a 12/8, especially for musicians who learn by ear and are capable of improvising entire tunes without much of an effort. Think about this, too: the harpers were dispossessed along with their patrons, and either fled with their masters, died, abandoned their art...or, perhaps, found new patrons as best they can, and conform to their patrons' tastes. Musicians who perform for a living will play whatever puts coin in their purse. Who's to say thesurving harpers didn't just adapt the tastes of the ascendancy nobles, who would have been plugged in to continental tastes? Who's to say they didn't take these new forms and transform them into something unique? It's a bitter pill for some to swallow but entirely realistic.
I believe the jig was originally so called because it was a dance involving leaping or skipping, and was not necessarily a dance in 6/8 time originally. Hence the older jigs being in 2/4 or 3/4.
While it is often stated that the jig is of Irish origin, it is more than likely that this dance-type originated in the Germanic countries.
A closer look at the etymology of this word reveals that Gig (g[i^]g) in its several variant forms describes a certain type of (repetitive) motion.
Examples such as Icelandic "geiga" (which means to "rove at random" or "take a sudden unexpected direction"), the High German "Geigen" (a "back and forth motion") to the Low German dialects such as that spoken in the Swiss Canton of Bern (where "gyg-ampfe" called a reel it is in fact a jig)."
I don't think anyone has yet mentioned that the word 'jig' or 'gig' was at one time used in English as a term for a fiddle (although not necessarily the modern violin), cognate with the German 'geige' (in Latvia, there is a traditional bowed instrument, made from a hollowed-out block of wood, called a 'giga' [with a little hook under or over the first 'g']).
Perhaps the term was sometimes used, if erroneously, to refer to any sort of folk dance tune typically played on a fiddle.
I think the situation may be similar to the origin of the term "gavotte" in Britanny. Musicians from all over France/England/Europe would travel around, collecting and composing, to bring "new stuff" (both musics and dances) back, to please the court.
For the gavotte, we can apparently be fairly sure that it was "developed" in Brittany (it only subsists there and is very particular in the dance and the music). It would appear that the name originated in the Gap region of France (completely the opposite side from Britanny, in the alps), where the people were called "gavots" and their dance and the associated music was called a "Gavotte". We may then assume that the Gavotte (either in music or dance form) was brought back to the court in Paris/Versailles and that, thereafter, a number of similar tunes or dances were "shrugged off" by the nobles: "oh yes, I've seen that before, it's a gavotte". And in the case of the gavotte, the name apparently travelled back to Britanny and stuck.
I know absolutely nothing about this except having vaguely read stuff here and there, but I would surmise that the same happened with the jig:
1) jig is a lively dance
2) some irish people come and perform a different lively dance
3) the spectators "mistakedly" call it a jig
4) the name is taken back to irland/whereever
5) the tunes associated with the dance back in irland are then christened jigs
I thought the Irish word for a jig is 'port'. Were the Irish dancing the port before the English came to tell them the correct name for the tune?
What about the 2/4 jigs in Ryan's Mammoth Collection? I suspect those squared up to make them more suitable for the banjo but I don't really know.
I'm sure there is one of you out there who can answer shed light on these weighty matters.
There are a lot of American Jigs in 2/4. Might be played swingy enough to come out like single jigs. George Sand transcribed some Bourees a 2 temps. She was very literal. writing the performance instead of by convention. The miniscule rests make the tunes sound like single jigs inside of the hard-charging 4/4 (126mm) tunes as we play them today (more like reels).
I belive the Irish word is "piort" but it sounds the same. The word can also mean something like "planxty".
Kemps jig was written to commerate his dancing from London to Norich in nine days.http://www.amaranthpublishing.com/Kemp.htm
Kemp's jig was the first tune I learned to finger pick on the mandolin.
“J. S. Bach certainly knew about them in his various keyboard suites.”
Yep, he often ended the suite with a gigue, but how many were in 6/8 or 9/8? The only Bach gigue I can call to mind (from a lute suite I used to play) is a pretty solid 3/4 sound, except for brief spots that have a 6/8 emphasis. I haven’t listened to the keyboard suites in a long time.
When did the jig become a jig?
When did the jig become a jig?
Okay, you music historians, when did the term, “jig”, come to mean a tune in 6/8 or 9/8 or 12/8? In my classical guitar days, I played lots of pieces from the 16th through 18th century (in the 19th and 20th centuries, I rested) and every one I can think of that was called jig or gigue or giga was in another meter, like 2/4 or 3/4. Probably the best known is Kemp’s Jig, an Elizabethan lute tune that could almost pass as a polka today.
So jig/gigue/giga was apparently a fairly generic label for a long time. When did it become specific? Anybody? Anybody?
# Posted on March 14th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
The earliest transcriptions I can recall of jigs in 6/8 time would be in the Geohegan Pastoral bagpipe tutor ca. 1746. There may be earlier works that feature that rhythmic innovation. Carolan was composing in the 1680s to the late 1730s, for instance, and many of his tunes are unmistakably transcribed in 6/8 rhythms; however, his stuff was not transcribed until the 1790s, more than 50 years after his death. I would guess that his compositions and 6/8 pieces in early piping literature would be indications of a general irish musical and dance fashion in the Irish ascendancy's "big houses" that favored compound rhythms. Perhaps the dance steps evolved and got more complicated, and the music changed along with the dance steps?
# Posted on March 14th 2006 by Hanley
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
So a jig only became a jig once some wrote one down?
# Posted on March 14th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
I have this feeling, in my water, that 6/8s have been around & popular for hundreds of years in France, long, long before they spread to England, Scotland & Ireland - but my water could be wrong ............................
# Posted on March 14th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
that's your eau, Ptarm.
# Posted on March 14th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
James Oswald's "The Caledonian Pocket Companion" 12 volumes published from 1743-1759 has a lot of 6/8 versions of Reels called Gigas after the main tune.
PP
# Posted on March 14th 2006 by Pied Piper
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
Of course not Michael, but language evolves as do fashions in music in dance. Italian Gigues from the 16th and 17th centuries are very different from a 19th century irish jig. It is possible that before all the troubles in the 16th and 17th centuries that 6/8, 9/8, and 12/8 dance tunes existed in Ireland, and the English word "jig", an anglicized spelling of italian giga and french gigue, was arbitrarily applied to an indigenous dance form that had existed for centuries. We just DON' T KNOW, although I have a hunch and it's ONLY A HUNCH that the music we play today has nothing in common with the music of the medieval irish courts, let alone pre-christian ireland; it's just too similar to continenal dance music from the 17th and 18th centuries. It's no great leap of musical imagination to turn a 2/4 tune into a 6/8 tune, a 3/4 tune into a 9/8, or a 4/4 into a 12/8, especially for musicians who learn by ear and are capable of improvising entire tunes without much of an effort. Think about this, too: the harpers were dispossessed along with their patrons, and either fled with their masters, died, abandoned their art...or, perhaps, found new patrons as best they can, and conform to their patrons' tastes. Musicians who perform for a living will play whatever puts coin in their purse. Who's to say thesurving harpers didn't just adapt the tastes of the ascendancy nobles, who would have been plugged in to continental tastes? Who's to say they didn't take these new forms and transform them into something unique? It's a bitter pill for some to swallow but entirely realistic.
# Posted on March 14th 2006 by Hanley
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
I believe the jig was originally so called because it was a dance involving leaping or skipping, and was not necessarily a dance in 6/8 time originally. Hence the older jigs being in 2/4 or 3/4.
# Posted on March 14th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
On the other hand:
"Origins and etymology
While it is often stated that the jig is of Irish origin, it is more than likely that this dance-type originated in the Germanic countries.
A closer look at the etymology of this word reveals that Gig (g[i^]g) in its several variant forms describes a certain type of (repetitive) motion.
Examples such as Icelandic "geiga" (which means to "rove at random" or "take a sudden unexpected direction"), the High German "Geigen" (a "back and forth motion") to the Low German dialects such as that spoken in the Swiss Canton of Bern (where "gyg-ampfe" called a reel it is in fact a jig)."
Check out:
http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=lg0itskgdfdh?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Jig&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc07a&linktext=Jig
# Posted on March 14th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
I don't think anyone has yet mentioned that the word 'jig' or 'gig' was at one time used in English as a term for a fiddle (although not necessarily the modern violin), cognate with the German 'geige' (in Latvia, there is a traditional bowed instrument, made from a hollowed-out block of wood, called a 'giga' [with a little hook under or over the first 'g']).
Perhaps the term was sometimes used, if erroneously, to refer to any sort of folk dance tune typically played on a fiddle.
# Posted on March 14th 2006 by granama
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
I think the situation may be similar to the origin of the term "gavotte" in Britanny. Musicians from all over France/England/Europe would travel around, collecting and composing, to bring "new stuff" (both musics and dances) back, to please the court.
For the gavotte, we can apparently be fairly sure that it was "developed" in Brittany (it only subsists there and is very particular in the dance and the music). It would appear that the name originated in the Gap region of France (completely the opposite side from Britanny, in the alps), where the people were called "gavots" and their dance and the associated music was called a "Gavotte". We may then assume that the Gavotte (either in music or dance form) was brought back to the court in Paris/Versailles and that, thereafter, a number of similar tunes or dances were "shrugged off" by the nobles: "oh yes, I've seen that before, it's a gavotte". And in the case of the gavotte, the name apparently travelled back to Britanny and stuck.
I know absolutely nothing about this except having vaguely read stuff here and there, but I would surmise that the same happened with the jig:
1) jig is a lively dance
2) some irish people come and perform a different lively dance
3) the spectators "mistakedly" call it a jig
4) the name is taken back to irland/whereever
5) the tunes associated with the dance back in irland are then christened jigs
# Posted on March 14th 2006 by Tirno
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
I thought the Irish word for a jig is 'port'. Were the Irish dancing the port before the English came to tell them the correct name for the tune?
What about the 2/4 jigs in Ryan's Mammoth Collection? I suspect those squared up to make them more suitable for the banjo but I don't really know.
I'm sure there is one of you out there who can answer shed light on these weighty matters.
# Posted on March 14th 2006 by McMandolin
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
Born as I was in the early 15th Century I can verify that the Irish were dancing a port long before the word jig came along.
Anyone else who was around at the time will verify that the Old Irish word Port is a numerical term which actually translates as "three quarters".
The mathematicians among you will recognise that 3/4 is the same as........ 6/8
Marie of Rumania
# Posted on March 15th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
Now, just think about it for a minute guys, who else was living in Rumania in the C15th? Maybe this will jog (or jig) your memory:
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2003/03/12/185045.php
This could explain a few thing .........
# Posted on March 15th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
There are a lot of American Jigs in 2/4. Might be played swingy enough to come out like single jigs. George Sand transcribed some Bourees a 2 temps. She was very literal. writing the performance instead of by convention. The miniscule rests make the tunes sound like single jigs inside of the hard-charging 4/4 (126mm) tunes as we play them today (more like reels).
I belive the Irish word is "piort" but it sounds the same. The word can also mean something like "planxty".
# Posted on March 15th 2006 by Owell Mabee
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
There is a Rumanian dance form in 3/8 they call it a "joc" coincidence, possibly.
# Posted on March 15th 2006 by McMandolin
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
No wonder you're losing your hair then Conan if you're that old.
# Posted on March 15th 2006 by Dow
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
Grrr. You just watch your neck, matey!
# Posted on March 15th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
Oh, never mind. I’m not interested anymore.
Just kidding. Interesting replies. All through the day, I’ve been running Kemp’s Jig through my cerebral gramaphone as a real jig and as a polka.
# Posted on March 15th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
Kemps jig was written to commerate his dancing from London to Norich in nine days.http://www.amaranthpublishing.com/Kemp.htm
Kemp's jig was the first tune I learned to finger pick on the mandolin.
# Posted on March 15th 2006 by McMandolin
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
Perhaps "olde sessione minstrels" invented tunes in 6/8, 9/8 and 12/8 as a difficult rhythm to put off folkes who'd bought tabors at folke festivales
# Posted on March 15th 2006 by Wurzel
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
don't you mean ffolkes
# Posted on March 15th 2006 by McMandolin
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
Thanks for that link, McMandolin. I didn't know that much about Will Kemp.
# Posted on March 15th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
J. S. Bach certainly knew about them in his various keyboard suites.
# Posted on March 15th 2006 by geoffwright
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
“J. S. Bach certainly knew about them in his various keyboard suites.”
Yep, he often ended the suite with a gigue, but how many were in 6/8 or 9/8? The only Bach gigue I can call to mind (from a lute suite I used to play) is a pretty solid 3/4 sound, except for brief spots that have a 6/8 emphasis. I haven’t listened to the keyboard suites in a long time.
# Posted on March 15th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
Here are some interesting photos of the sort of European instruments that would have played jigs, long before they reached Ireland:
http://www.formaantiqva.com/foro/viewtopic.php?t=1389
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
Next time your in Spain, you might like to check this instrument treasure trove out:
http://www.luisdelgado.net/museo.htm
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
Don't miss the sound clips of many of these unusual instruments:
http://www.funjdiaz.net/museo/
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: When did the jig become a jig?
Here’s a must have instrument for MG:
http://www.funjdiaz.net/museo/ficha.cfm?id=24
Sound clip:
http://www.funjdiaz.net/media/sonidos/inst13.mp3
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Ptarmigan