Maybe I just need to get over this, but I want to ask the question: Is there a reason that on some recordings, you can't hear the sliding of the guitarists changing chords and on other recordings, seems like every other beat you hear the fingers sliding over the strings? Sometimes, I find this very annoying. The chords they finally get to sound great, but its the passage from the previous chord to the new one that I hear and I think its really distracting. I only notice this with guitars.
I don't know anything about playing the guitar and I like playing with a guitar player very much. And if you tell me that this is just the way it is, that's fine, I can move on. But I don't hear this on every recording with a guitar, just some.
I have said I find it annoying and distracting, but I don't stop listening to the recordings where I hear it. Anyway, just interested to know more about this and to hear what others think about it.
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
Hi ya John, good meeting up with you in Seattle at the tionol,
I think that's a mic issue more than anything, also it depends on the player's skill, or lack of interest in muting these things - some look on it as a virtue I bet. I seem to recall that with low action on the guitar it becomes more prominent - low action makes it easier to play, you see. You know that from the fiddle I suppose! Then with the guitar there are these things called frets...and instead of a bow you have a "pick."
I heard about Dave Power getting a review in the Irish Music magazine where they complained about the clacking noise his bellows was making - listen to Chieftains 1 for a very audible demonstration. Truthfully I can't hear it on Dave's CD at all. There was a lady who returned the piping sampler Drones and Chanters 2 because of the constant humming noise. Really. No, really. I'm not making that up! Also there's the person who thought their Tommy Peoples CD had some kind of occasional buzzing defect - his "cat sneeze" triplet. "Cat sneeze" I heard in this forum - that should be his new record's name!
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
It might have to do with the kind of strings they use.
I knew a guitar player years ago who was annoyed by that same thing, and he ordered some smooth-wound strings guaranteed to prevent it. But those strings turned out to be so dead, tone-wise, that he gave up and went back to the scratchy strings.
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
It depends on how the guitar is recorded. Acoustic guitars are often recorded using their own built in pickups. But this never quite gives a true 'acoustic' sound, as it comes directly from the vibrations of the soundboard or bridge, not from the air around the instrument. So, usually one or more microphones will be used, to capture some of the 'real' sound of the guitar, then mixed in with the sound from the pickup. Where these are placed in relation to the guitar will give a different sound. Some players actually prefer to capture some of the 'sliding' sound in the recording, and will have a mic placed in front of the fingerboard.
So what you are hearing might actually be the choice of the musicians, or the producer. Or it may just be a badly recorded guitar. And, of course, some guitarists just make more sliding noise than others.
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
Good meeting up with you too, Kevin. I wish I had been able to stay longer at the session on Sunday night.
Interesting that you point out the sound of the bellows. I do hear that with some pipers. But I don't mind it. I really like the sound that accordion buttons make, too. Those are the sounds of the intruments. I guess its the "schritching" sound that I hear sometimes when a guitar player is moving to a new chord that gets me. Why do you think a guitar player would look on it as a virtue?
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
You can always hear the sliding noise on Ry Cooder records.
Especially when he's got that glass thing on his finger
Chet Atkins recommended rubbing your fingertips on the end of your nose to lubricate them (seriously) and help minimise noise.
Otherwise it's a hazard of using bright-sounding wound strings.
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
John just politely ask your gutarist to use coated strings. I find I squeak if I go back to new non-coated strings - partly because I am not used to avoiding the squeak, and yes it is avoidable by technique. New strings are more of a problem and there are various preparations one can buy to reduce the noise when rubbed onto the strings.
On a recording the squeak could be greatly reduced electronically by just recording some squeak and then using that in a noise-cancelling program.
Bren, I think the slide guitar makes a somewhat different sort of noise and that is much more intentional. Wonder what used to come out of Chet Atkins nose that was so useful - maybe that's what they sell in the bottles!
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
It is possible to "practice away" most of this sound by training quick chord change and precision - classical guitarists tend to do that. My guitar teacher was very strict about polishing a tune to the point when I dont slide my fingers on the strings while changing positions. This will not be applicable every time, but reduces the noise to ~20%.
The bad side is, you need to practice it constantly. Also, I don't think it matches the technique of "folkie", "jazzy" or "swing" guitar, where finger positioning and movement is much different.
Of course, there are coated strings, recording tricks etc. etc. which are equally good and allow you to spend this extra time drinking beer, trainspottin' and watching Big Brother.
(By the way, I've played coated strings for the first time this January and they are a real fun to play - wish I could buy them around here)
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
Must admit I like my music, like my women - au natural - so enjoy hearing the mechanics at work, e.g. buttons on boxes & those wee gasps of air, bellows sounds with pipes, breathing sounds associated with flutes & whistles & yes, stringy noises with guitars.
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
I now use Elixir strings. They are expensive but last for ages without losing brightness AND they do not squeak. I would never go back to anything else now.
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
Spot on Ptarmigan,I agree.It's all part of the sound.If all those "hinderance" noises were eliminated it just wouldn't be the same.For me it's just part of the sound.I have to say that I don't notice them cos I listen to the music!!
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
Squeaks can be mostly avoided with practice, but they do sneak in - just like that whistling sound that occasionally happens to fiddlers when they don't rosin up enough. Coated strings and Fast Fret help too. But there are some musicians who actually like leaving some of them in for a more "organic" sound. A notable example - you can hear an occasional squeak even on recordings of the great classical guitarist Andres Segovia!
Actual sliding - where you don't release the pressure on the strings as you go up the neck, causing actual notes to be heard during the transition - is purely a stylistic thing and if you hear it, it was probably by conscious choice of the guitarist.
When it comes to trad and folk music, a lot of people like things a little dirty and gritty - as opposed to the whole super-polished, over-produced sound of so many pop recordings. Put me down in the "gritty" column any day!
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
Well - you are not going to hear sliding up and down with a 3 chord wonder anyways. The more chord pogression and stuff the more you will hear the sliding.
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
I agree with Jeff - its *is* as style.
And if I may point out some people with this style
John Doyle, Ed Boyd, Paul Meehan etc etc - hmmmm some of the best backers there are....hmmmm
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
It's a technique issue, I think, and I've worked for years to minimize it.
Strings do make a difference. Most guitar strings are called "round wound," and the bronze wrappings on the string cores are round wires, so there are dips between the windings. When the fretting fingers slide across these they make that noise.
I use strings that are "half-rounds" and the bronze wrapping wires have been buffed after the wrapping so that the top edge of the windings is smoother. It really helps a lot with the noise and they feel a lot better to me.
Coated strings have other issues for me, that make them impractical, or... I just don't prefer them, but they are a rational response for a player with lots of string noise. I do like to use cebacious lubrications, too, the Chetlube. <G> It works!
Some of the sliding noise comes from recording techniques. Microphone placement can make it more prominent or compression in the mixing stage can make it really pop out.
(This also happens with breath sounds and sibiliance with singers.)
I find string noise really distracting -sometimes- on recordings and there's no real reason that it should be so prominent that it's distracting. Technically, it's a problem that can be easily remedied in the recording process.
I really like hearing button sounds and bellows sounds, the natural sounds of the instruments, in recordings, as long as they're truthfully in context and thus don't distract.
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
I take the edges off the callouses on my fingertips with an emery board. That helps reduce the squeaks. It takes work and practice (and coated strings) to minimize the rest of the sounds. I agree that it's style, too, because it can largely be eliminated.
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
Donough's right -- Coated strings are the only way to get rid of squeaking, maybe a noise cancellation program if you've got one.
Personally, I don't mind it, after playing the guitar for so long, I don't notice it more than I'd notice the sound of my own footsteps.
Your guitarist might mind the jump in price, mainly if he's buying his strings in gross. Also, just my opinion here, but I think they kill the character of the instrument's tone, and sound kind of flat... After gigging with coated strings in a bluegrass band, I noticed a drop in volume, which is important when you're competing with a banjo and a big old stand-up bass. They are quieter, however.
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
"And if you tell me that this is just the way it is, that's fine, I can move on.”
Well, John …
Of course, it can be changed – coated strings, lots of practice, etc. – but only if the light bulb, er, I mean, guitar player really wants to change. Personally, I wouldn’t go to coated strings just to reduce the skreek. I don’t like the sound of them. And training the left hand to avoid sliding on the wound strings is very hard work. Besides, letting at least one finger slide on a string has been an intentional part of guitar technique for a long time. It’s called the “guide finger” principle and it helps tremendously in shifting around on the neck.
I’ll offer one piece of advice, though, that’s not *too* hard to learn and helps to some extent: If you mute the strings with the right hand while the left hand shifts, the noise should be reduced. How much it’s reduced depends on the guitar, the player’s fingertips, how many fingers are sliding, etc.
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
Thanks for all your replies. You have given me an understanding of where this sound comes from and why/how players make it. I appreciate it. I learned a lot.
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
I see some misinterpretations, perhaps deliberate, of just where on or in Chet's nose he was rubbing. The outside skin of the nose is one of the oiliest spots on the body, and a good source of just the kind of light lubricant that can minimize squeaking, and also moisten dry hands or fingertip callouses, etc.
Some of the squeaking has to do with the chords being played, and how far the player's fingers have to move and how fast. Since I play standard tuning, and mostly lurk down in first position, I produce few squeaks. DADGAD players, on the other hand, who often work up and down the fretboard, are sometimes more prone to squeaks.
Sometimes the most brilliant guitar work comes with squeaks, and you just have to accept it. I will take the squeaks if great playing comes with them!
Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords - a solution!!!!
I think someone earlier had the (partial) answer to this problem but I hope this post will help. First off, the squeak will happen whenever a finger or fingers are slid up and down the fretboard. The more dry your hands, the worse the squeak. I can be minimised (but not eliminated) by using moisturiser on the fingertips.
Usually only becomes an issue when recording or at some gigs with high quality sound systems. I noticed it most last year when doing some recording, and realised that my hands had become very dry in recent years.
Only problem with using moisturiser to cure the problem is that some of the grease will transfer on to the strings, dulling the sound and possibly reducing their useful life.
Some engineers insist on new strings when recording but I find that using a set that is fully played in will significantly reduce the amount of squeak.
The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
Maybe I just need to get over this, but I want to ask the question: Is there a reason that on some recordings, you can't hear the sliding of the guitarists changing chords and on other recordings, seems like every other beat you hear the fingers sliding over the strings? Sometimes, I find this very annoying. The chords they finally get to sound great, but its the passage from the previous chord to the new one that I hear and I think its really distracting. I only notice this with guitars.
I don't know anything about playing the guitar and I like playing with a guitar player very much. And if you tell me that this is just the way it is, that's fine, I can move on. But I don't hear this on every recording with a guitar, just some.
I have said I find it annoying and distracting, but I don't stop listening to the recordings where I hear it. Anyway, just interested to know more about this and to hear what others think about it.
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by John Culhane
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
Hi ya John, good meeting up with you in Seattle at the tionol,
I think that's a mic issue more than anything, also it depends on the player's skill, or lack of interest in muting these things - some look on it as a virtue I bet. I seem to recall that with low action on the guitar it becomes more prominent - low action makes it easier to play, you see. You know that from the fiddle I suppose! Then with the guitar there are these things called frets...and instead of a bow you have a "pick."
I heard about Dave Power getting a review in the Irish Music magazine where they complained about the clacking noise his bellows was making - listen to Chieftains 1 for a very audible demonstration. Truthfully I can't hear it on Dave's CD at all. There was a lady who returned the piping sampler Drones and Chanters 2 because of the constant humming noise. Really. No, really. I'm not making that up! Also there's the person who thought their Tommy Peoples CD had some kind of occasional buzzing defect - his "cat sneeze" triplet. "Cat sneeze" I heard in this forum - that should be his new record's name!
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by Kevin Rietmann
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
It might have to do with the kind of strings they use.
I knew a guitar player years ago who was annoyed by that same thing, and he ordered some smooth-wound strings guaranteed to prevent it. But those strings turned out to be so dead, tone-wise, that he gave up and went back to the scratchy strings.
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by mickray
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
It depends on how the guitar is recorded. Acoustic guitars are often recorded using their own built in pickups. But this never quite gives a true 'acoustic' sound, as it comes directly from the vibrations of the soundboard or bridge, not from the air around the instrument. So, usually one or more microphones will be used, to capture some of the 'real' sound of the guitar, then mixed in with the sound from the pickup. Where these are placed in relation to the guitar will give a different sound. Some players actually prefer to capture some of the 'sliding' sound in the recording, and will have a mic placed in front of the fingerboard.
So what you are hearing might actually be the choice of the musicians, or the producer. Or it may just be a badly recorded guitar. And, of course, some guitarists just make more sliding noise than others.
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by granama
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
Good meeting up with you too, Kevin. I wish I had been able to stay longer at the session on Sunday night.
Interesting that you point out the sound of the bellows. I do hear that with some pipers. But I don't mind it. I really like the sound that accordion buttons make, too. Those are the sounds of the intruments. I guess its the "schritching" sound that I hear sometimes when a guitar player is moving to a new chord that gets me. Why do you think a guitar player would look on it as a virtue?
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by John Culhane
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
You can always hear the sliding noise on Ry Cooder records.
Especially when he's got that glass thing on his finger
Chet Atkins recommended rubbing your fingertips on the end of your nose to lubricate them (seriously) and help minimise noise.
Otherwise it's a hazard of using bright-sounding wound strings.
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by Bren
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
John just politely ask your gutarist to use coated strings. I find I squeak if I go back to new non-coated strings - partly because I am not used to avoiding the squeak, and yes it is avoidable by technique. New strings are more of a problem and there are various preparations one can buy to reduce the noise when rubbed onto the strings.
On a recording the squeak could be greatly reduced electronically by just recording some squeak and then using that in a noise-cancelling program.
Bren, I think the slide guitar makes a somewhat different sort of noise and that is much more intentional. Wonder what used to come out of Chet Atkins nose that was so useful - maybe that's what they sell in the bottles!
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by Donough
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
Sebacious glands I believe Donough but I'm no physician!
Are you around for the weekend session or off on holiday?
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by Bren
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
It is possible to "practice away" most of this sound by training quick chord change and precision - classical guitarists tend to do that. My guitar teacher was very strict about polishing a tune to the point when I dont slide my fingers on the strings while changing positions. This will not be applicable every time, but reduces the noise to ~20%.
The bad side is, you need to practice it constantly. Also, I don't think it matches the technique of "folkie", "jazzy" or "swing" guitar, where finger positioning and movement is much different.
Of course, there are coated strings, recording tricks etc. etc. which are equally good and allow you to spend this extra time drinking beer, trainspottin' and watching Big Brother.
(By the way, I've played coated strings for the first time this January and they are a real fun to play - wish I could buy them around here)
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by EastPole
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
Must admit I like my music, like my women - au natural - so enjoy hearing the mechanics at work, e.g. buttons on boxes & those wee gasps of air, bellows sounds with pipes, breathing sounds associated with flutes & whistles & yes, stringy noises with guitars.
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
I now use Elixir strings. They are expensive but last for ages without losing brightness AND they do not squeak. I would never go back to anything else now.
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
Spot on Ptarmigan,I agree.It's all part of the sound.If all those "hinderance" noises were eliminated it just wouldn't be the same.For me it's just part of the sound.I have to say that I don't notice them cos I listen to the music!!
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by meri-lawes
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
Must admit I like my my women - au natural - so enjoy hearing the mechanics at work, e.g. those wee gasps of air, bellows, breathing sounds . . .
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
yeah Dave, but what about guitars?
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by Bren
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
Squeaks can be mostly avoided with practice, but they do sneak in - just like that whistling sound that occasionally happens to fiddlers when they don't rosin up enough. Coated strings and Fast Fret help too. But there are some musicians who actually like leaving some of them in for a more "organic" sound. A notable example - you can hear an occasional squeak even on recordings of the great classical guitarist Andres Segovia!
Actual sliding - where you don't release the pressure on the strings as you go up the neck, causing actual notes to be heard during the transition - is purely a stylistic thing and if you hear it, it was probably by conscious choice of the guitarist.
When it comes to trad and folk music, a lot of people like things a little dirty and gritty - as opposed to the whole super-polished, over-produced sound of so many pop recordings. Put me down in the "gritty" column any day!
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by JeffK627
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
guitars?
I can take em or leave em.
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
Well - you are not going to hear sliding up and down with a 3 chord wonder anyways. The more chord pogression and stuff the more you will hear the sliding.
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by bb
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
I agree with Jeff - its *is* as style.
And if I may point out some people with this style
John Doyle, Ed Boyd, Paul Meehan etc etc - hmmmm some of the best backers there are....hmmmm
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by bb
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
It's a technique issue, I think, and I've worked for years to minimize it.
Strings do make a difference. Most guitar strings are called "round wound," and the bronze wrappings on the string cores are round wires, so there are dips between the windings. When the fretting fingers slide across these they make that noise.
I use strings that are "half-rounds" and the bronze wrapping wires have been buffed after the wrapping so that the top edge of the windings is smoother. It really helps a lot with the noise and they feel a lot better to me.
Coated strings have other issues for me, that make them impractical, or... I just don't prefer them, but they are a rational response for a player with lots of string noise. I do like to use cebacious lubrications, too, the Chetlube. <G> It works!
Some of the sliding noise comes from recording techniques. Microphone placement can make it more prominent or compression in the mixing stage can make it really pop out.
(This also happens with breath sounds and sibiliance with singers.)
I find string noise really distracting -sometimes- on recordings and there's no real reason that it should be so prominent that it's distracting. Technically, it's a problem that can be easily remedied in the recording process.
I really like hearing button sounds and bellows sounds, the natural sounds of the instruments, in recordings, as long as they're truthfully in context and thus don't distract.
stv
http://cdbaby.com/Culchies
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by stv culchie
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
I take the edges off the callouses on my fingertips with an emery board. That helps reduce the squeaks. It takes work and practice (and coated strings) to minimize the rest of the sounds. I agree that it's style, too, because it can largely be eliminated.
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by bigpalooka
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
Donough's right -- Coated strings are the only way to get rid of squeaking, maybe a noise cancellation program if you've got one.
Personally, I don't mind it, after playing the guitar for so long, I don't notice it more than I'd notice the sound of my own footsteps.
Your guitarist might mind the jump in price, mainly if he's buying his strings in gross. Also, just my opinion here, but I think they kill the character of the instrument's tone, and sound kind of flat... After gigging with coated strings in a bluegrass band, I noticed a drop in volume, which is important when you're competing with a banjo and a big old stand-up bass. They are quieter, however.
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by gravelwalks
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
"And if you tell me that this is just the way it is, that's fine, I can move on.”
Well, John …
Of course, it can be changed – coated strings, lots of practice, etc. – but only if the light bulb, er, I mean, guitar player really wants to change. Personally, I wouldn’t go to coated strings just to reduce the skreek. I don’t like the sound of them. And training the left hand to avoid sliding on the wound strings is very hard work. Besides, letting at least one finger slide on a string has been an intentional part of guitar technique for a long time. It’s called the “guide finger” principle and it helps tremendously in shifting around on the neck.
I’ll offer one piece of advice, though, that’s not *too* hard to learn and helps to some extent: If you mute the strings with the right hand while the left hand shifts, the noise should be reduced. How much it’s reduced depends on the guitar, the player’s fingertips, how many fingers are sliding, etc.
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by Bob himself
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
Thanks for all your replies. You have given me an understanding of where this sound comes from and why/how players make it. I appreciate it. I learned a lot.
# Posted on March 3rd 2006 by John Culhane
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
What a constructive thread. No-one even got insulted. It just shows what a real nice bunch us guitarists are
# Posted on March 3rd 2006 by Donough
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
And the fiddle players who like to play along with them too
# Posted on March 3rd 2006 by John Culhane
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
Yes John, they are a superior breed of Fiddlers. Well they must be since Beebs was involved also
# Posted on March 3rd 2006 by Donough
Re: The Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords
I see some misinterpretations, perhaps deliberate, of just where on or in Chet's nose he was rubbing. The outside skin of the nose is one of the oiliest spots on the body, and a good source of just the kind of light lubricant that can minimize squeaking, and also moisten dry hands or fingertip callouses, etc.
Some of the squeaking has to do with the chords being played, and how far the player's fingers have to move and how fast. Since I play standard tuning, and mostly lurk down in first position, I produce few squeaks. DADGAD players, on the other hand, who often work up and down the fretboard, are sometimes more prone to squeaks.
Sometimes the most brilliant guitar work comes with squeaks, and you just have to accept it. I will take the squeaks if great playing comes with them!
# Posted on March 3rd 2006 by AlBrown
Sliding Sound of Guitarists Changing Chords - a solution!!!!
I think someone earlier had the (partial) answer to this problem but I hope this post will help. First off, the squeak will happen whenever a finger or fingers are slid up and down the fretboard. The more dry your hands, the worse the squeak. I can be minimised (but not eliminated) by using moisturiser on the fingertips.
Usually only becomes an issue when recording or at some gigs with high quality sound systems. I noticed it most last year when doing some recording, and realised that my hands had become very dry in recent years.
Only problem with using moisturiser to cure the problem is that some of the grease will transfer on to the strings, dulling the sound and possibly reducing their useful life.
Some engineers insist on new strings when recording but I find that using a set that is fully played in will significantly reduce the amount of squeak.
# Posted on March 6th 2006 by lysaghtm