Specially for goosey, here's another thread from me!
I just received a fascinating E-mail from G Banjo player - Jerry Moloney, over in St. Louis & as he is something of an expert, I thought any banjo players & lovers of the instrument might be interested in his comments.
His thoughts on our recent G Banjo / Tenor Banjo debate are that -
"there is not that much difference between the 5 string and the tenor except that the tener is louder."
He believes that -
"You can get 5 strings a lot sweeter in tone than the tenor and also very close to the tenor in tone."
One problem, he believes for any G Banjo players, who want to play Irish Music, is that they already -
"... play bluegrass or some other style already and find it difficult to change over."
On a technical front -
"your fingers can only pick in one direction whereas a plectrum on the tenor you can get 2 strokes in, in the same space. This means that you have to get very fast with your fingers."
Jerry told me he does play a -
"..limited number of reels at dance speed and a bunch more at what I call listening speed."
While he has -
".. no problems with the jigs and HPs etc, although the slip jigs gave me a lot of trouble in the beginning."
Inevitably, that old fear of the strange or unknown rears it's ugly head at some sessions he attends, for the first time, & he told me he does -
"...get some resistance when I want to play with some folks that do not know me"
He says that learning to play ITM on the G Banjo is, in his opinion -
" ... not by any means easy. I thought I would never get it going for awhile but then I crossed a line and have never looked back."
The good news is that he & his friends -
" ... are working on a cd at the moment"
but in the meantime -
"I might be able to dig up some mp3s or something over the next few weeks and if I do I will forward them to you."
Many thanks to Jerry for his thoughts.
I know groups like 'Any Old Time' made the G Banjo sound absolutely brilliant with ITM, but I was wondering if anyone here had any personal experience of this instrument in sessions?
Does anyone here have any experience of playing ITM on a G Banjo?
Has anyone experienced a G Banjo playing ITM in their session or a session anywhere?
&
Did it sound authentic & Irish enough for your ears?
I'm not sure why people compare the five string banjo and the tenor banjo since except for the fact that they share some common ancestory, they are totally different instruments.
Sure, you can play ITM on a five string and make it sound very good if you are skilled enough. We have a clawhammer player in our session who does very well but he has a very hard time with getting the feel of the music (and triplets.) But I suspect that this is due to a) nine months experience with ITM and b) years of experience with Old Time music.
On the other hand I have seen a few master level BG banjo players (Greg Cahill comes to mind) play the music wonderfully with all the nuances. The five string banjo just takes a higher level of accomplishment to play ITM well mostly because the styles of play are not that suited for ITM.
As for the "sweeter sound" issue, again, they are different instruments. Five string banjos have longer scales, smaller diameter strings, and are tuned to a chord. The resonances from the latter quality will add to the sweetness as does the scale/neck length. On the other hand, setup has a lot to do with how a banjo sounds, and frankly, ITM banjo players have very little interest in the sound whereas BG banjoists all aspire to a particular sound ("like Earl") and spend a lot of time on this issue. One result is a greater expertise in the art of setup.
Technically, if you use a three finger style, hitting the triplets is not that hard, Don Reno did it for years using two fingers on one string. The method is well known amongst the BG crowd. The same problems that any newbie has with ITM occur: learning that ITM is not BG and that they have nothing in common including ancestory, having to listen intently to lots of CDs and live performances to "get" the music, and being a decent musician to begin with.
There is no reason why a five string banjo player can't play the music. It just takes time, interest, and motivation.
Back in the 70’s, there was a brief flurry of interest in “melodic clawhammer banjo” and an eponymous album resulted, which included some Irish tunes. The consensus among my friends was, “Okay, interesting, but why not just play tenor?”
The clawhammer attack lacks the sharp edge that a plectrum gives. But three-finger style with fingerpicks is different. I’ve heard a few half-hearted attemtps that didn’t quite work, but I don’t see why it couldn’t be brilliant, in the right hands. Listen to jambo123’s fingerstyle tenor on the Might Craic Online. It’s not five-string, but I think it proves the concept quite well.
An old friend of mine, who’s a long-time plectrum guitar player, has been experimenting with fingerpicks for melody playing. He uses a thumb pick and one finger pick to mimic the action of a plectrum. I haven’t seen him since he started this, but he reports that it works very well and has even increased his speed. There’s more than one way to pluck a string.
Ptarmigan my old spud You already know my experience with Ian Carmichael, a fine 5 string plucker. I first heard him play with friends from Scotland on a visit to my native North West many years ago.Friends consisted of fluter, box player and fiddler.
His playing, in the absence of any other rhythm instruments, filled out the music and complimented the other musicians. Not in the least loud or overpowering........very pleasant to the ear and the others got a lift from his playing.
But then Ian had been playing with these guys at various gigs at the time, so obviously the sets were well rehearsed. I hasten to add though, he provided excellent accompaniment to local musicians also.
The last I heard, he got himself a tenor for ITM and was doing a great job on the tunes. I got the impression he knew of the 5 strings' limitations for playing ITM, reels especially.
Mike, I always think, rightly or wrongly, of the "clawhammer" style as being the core & original method of playing the banjo?
Does anyone know, at this stage, how the African slaves who brought this instrument to America in the first place, actually played the instrument?
When did the 5th string appear?
"There’s more than one way to pluck a string." - well said Bob!
Aye Strathfoyle, Ian could fairly rattle out da toons on the G & Tenor!
I haven't seen him for a few years now, but I'm sure others on this site see him regularly, so we might hear how he's getting on - soon........................
The very old two-finger style described in the link is what the old timers in the North Georgia mountains were still playing thirty years ago. All the old guys I knew are gone now and I don't know anybody who still plays that style.
I remember meeting an old gentleman sitting in front of a little roadside store playing two-finger banjo. By means of introduction, I did some buck dancing while he played. Then we took turns playing. He referred to my clawhammer playing as "that new style."
Run .. don't walk and find a copy of Chris Grotewohl's CD Under the Influence. Chris is a friend of Roger Landes', who produced the CD. Roger told me this story a few years ago ... and I have no reason not to believe him ... having my own copy of Chris' CD. So the story goes ... Chris, an American 5-string bluegrass banjo player heard Bela Fleck playing some Irish tunes on 5-string, and was smitten. Chris went to the woodshed and developed a style of playing single note melody using finger picks ... kind of like Don Reno style, only far more advanced ... we're talking triplets up to speed etc. Anyway Chris runs into Bela at a workshop a few years later and tells him that he, Bela, had inspired him to play Irish tunes on the banjo ... and plays a few tunes for him ... at which point Bela looks at him and says "can you show me what you're doing, I could never get those triplets figured out"?
If you want to hear what can be done with Irish dance music on the 5-string you need to listen to Chris G.!
Fascinating Bob - "We know from early Banjo instruction books by performers like Thomas Briggs, 1855, Philip Rice, 1858 and Frank Converse, 1865, that the minstrel style of playing was the "downstroke", what we call frailing today. This style was learned from the slave performers themselves."
So frailing actually came from the slave musicians!
Blimey I hope that old two finger style hasn't been lost altogether Bob?
Aint it always the way though:
bigger is better!
louder is better!
faster is better!
Over Ornamented style is yer only man!
A highly developed technique is GOD!
You regularly come across this sad mentality in many sessions, where they only want to play FAST - OVER ORNAMENTED - REELS - ALL NIGHT!
Boy, are these guys ever missing the point!
Oh, y’know, I missed that “downstoke” part. The two-finger style played by the old Geogria fellers had an upstroke with the finger. They would often brush more than one string with that finger. Doc Watson used to play a really nice clean two-finger (upstroke) style, hitting single notes with the finger. He sounded very much like really good clawhammer.
I remember an old guy named Laurence Eller, who played Georgia two-finger style. He and his brother used to play for “dances, weddings, funerals, corn shuckings and rat killings”. He said some of those affairs would last so long his finger would be bleeding before they finished, but he kept playing. He had an aggressive attack.
glad to see that the balance is being redressed after previous threads had pooh-poohed the notion of playing Irish or Scottish music on the 5-string.
There are a few players around doing it, at least two in Aberdeenshire alone that I can think of, mostly older guys who have more sense than to take notice of people telling what they can and can't play.
You know where I stand on Jerry's 5 string playing. Actually, the session in St. Louis was a tad faster than most up to speed sessions I've played at. Jerry's listening speed I'm guessing is what I'd consider session speed.
I'll probably be heading back to St. Louis at some point this year, and I'll try to drop in again.
Tom Hanway in Longford plays on a five string - I think he spends most of his time playing bluegrass. I think Mel Bay have a book by him on ITM on 5 string for Irish music.
Dick Smith a stalwart of the north london scene is a fantastic player on 5 string. Anyone hearing him play could not claim that 5 string has no place in ITM. However if you watch him play he sweats those frets to get the right notes, using the whole neck - not something that tenor players do very much ) so I could concur that it takes significant skill to play well and at speed. In terms of speed, I would have thought that two fingers and a thumb would have been quicker than a plectrum, but never having tried it I can't claim to be any kind of expert!! All I do know is all them bluegrass boys seem to be able to play at a zillion miles an hour
"However if you watch him play he sweats those frets to get the right notes, using the whole neck - not something that tenor players do very much" - Aye, unless your Gerry O'Connor.
We don't usually sweat much either!
We are 'gentlemen' banjo players - we perspire!
Aye Jayhawk, I did get the impression, from Jerry's E-mail that he was a modest kinda dude, so I have an doubt that his idea of session speed is probably someone up around 'Warp Factor 5'!
Bren, I think the original thread was more poo pooing the notion that a G Banjo was an ideal beginners instrument for ITM, rather than the instrument itself & I think many statements on that, & this thread, have backed that up.
I bet Ray (RIP) had a wee thing to do with the interest in G Banjo playing up around Aberdeenshire.
Now he was one class act on the G Banjo!
Is the book referred to above by Bill Keith? He was associated a while back with "inventing" a style of playing old-time fiddle tunes on 5-string. As I recall the key principle was that you never play successive notes on the same string. I think Bill Keith then moved to pedal steel.
Unfortunately Ptarmigan I don't think either of those are him, as they are both americans, and he most certainly aint american. I know that he has hosted many sessions in camden / north london over the years in particular and has also played with people like the Alabama 3 amongst many others.
I am sure he has recorded, but not sure what (not very helpful I know) next time I see him I will aks him.
Dick - yes he does some of the time. I used to use one myself on a previous instrument, but what I play now works best with a soft plectrum.
Sadly my memory doesn't recall every time I ever heard Tony play the 5string - so I can't answer a categorical yes or no to whether he plays any rigs & jeels on it. But he does play plenty of tunes and we're definitely not talking bluegrass or oldtimey.
The high string on the 5-string also works well as a drone on slower tunes and on accompaniment. That keening "modal" sound. In some ways it's more of an "Irish" instrument than the rinky-tink tenor is.
Ptarmigan, I think "Scruggs tuners" on the banjo would be similar to the pedals on a pedal steel. Ray S didn't play so much trad Irish and Scottish, I was thinking of Neil, Alan Smart and others.
Pedal steel banjo?
(Treating the question seriously !)
The sharp banjo note decay would seem to miss the point of using a steel rather than frets.
Technically it could clearly be done, but whether it should....
The best book on the subject is by Tom Hanaway : " Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5 String Banjo" which you can get from Bayside Press (http://www.baysidepress.com/ and search "Authors" for Tom) Also, there are plenty of discussions of playing ITM on the five string on the Banjo Hangout (http://www.banjohangout.org go to Discussions and then "Other Styles")
Bill Keith is still alive and playing banjo. In fact along with Earl Scruggs and a few others is considered a banjo icon. He helped develop the melodic style of banjo playing and one hallmark is a constant flow of notes which means that notes are played on different strings as a rule without repeating a string twice, unless you have to which occurs. Bobby Thompson is the other person most linked to this style but there are plenty of authors.
Just an echo ot the best book on the subject by Tom Hanaway, he does at length explain how the 5 string Banjo will fit into the Irish/celtic music, he also warns you about uncorking one at a session. You better have practiced the melodies and can demonstrate proficiency and have thick skin and be as obnoxious as some of the other players. It will work and it is up to the 5 string player to demonstrate it's place here, it isn't going to be easy but I accept it as a challenge. I suppose you could lay back and beat on one of those drum thingie's with a toothpick between your teeth, that is the easy way out.
By the way, if you are interested in Bill Keith, there is a free instructional video (two actually, about half an hour apiece) on http://video.google.com all you have to do is put in the word "banjo" in the search box. You might want to look up "Irish music" too.
I had a couple of interesting replies on a Banjo Board on this topic, which I thought I'd share with you.
'Jim' recommended Tom Hanway's book:
Mel Bay's Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5-String Banjo: http://www.tomhanway.com/
He wrote:
"I think he'd be a good resource to answer your questions"
Tobes wrote:
"As for the authentic and irish sound..........well!
Now its true that you will not get a 5 string to sound absolutely identical to a tenor.
But then again why would you want to!
Part of the joy of playing Irish trad music on the 5 string is the way in which you can approach tunes in a slightly different way - especially by utilising the melodic style of playing. However, having said that there are many tunes that i play, both with the band I am in and at sessions, that I just play straight and true to the sheet music.
As for players out there - try checking out Leon Hunt (uk banjo player, check his solo album out) - and as mentioned before the very wonderful Mr Tom Hanway."
RB-1's input was:
"I've been playing (besides bluegrass and related stuff) Irish tunes on and off, using 3 finger style.
Last weekend Elly had to record an Irish poem to which she wrote some music.
The intention was to put in an all instrumental part with an Irish tune.
She decided for "The Merry Blacksmith".
Elly played guitar, tinwhistle, fiddle and bodhran and I added mandolin.
Still I wanted to try the banjo too but I wasn't satisfied with the result.
Then I took out a flatpick and gave it another swing.
The result was much more like we wanted.
Actually Elly mentioned it had the drive and pulse normally associated with the Irish tenorbanjo style."
My response to their replies was:
"I agree wholeheartedly with Tobes when he says, why would you want a G Banjo to sound just like a Tenor Banjo, cause there are Fiddle players on the West coast of Scotland who try & make their Fiddles sound just like Bagpipes & there too I say, what's the point.
The Fiddle, like the G Banjo has it's own sound & that's what we should be rejoicing in when we play it.
Bit like those bad parents who don't let their kids be themselves, but rather try & mould them into something they would like them to be!
Now that is sad!
RB-1 really said it all when he reached for a plectrum to play his G Banjo, to make it sound like a Tenor!
Re: Video clip of Mike McGoldrick playing Reel with G Banjo player
G Banjo fans should check this out. A video clip of Leon Hunt on G Banjo playing with John Joe Kelly – Bodhran, Michael McGoldrick – Low Whistle & Ed Boyd - Guitar
- The Silver Spire - from the Cambridge Folk Festival highlights 2004 on BBC4 http://www.leonhunt.com/music.html
Also, check out this sound clip of Leon Hunt, on G Banjo, & friends playing two reels at: http://www.hootenanny3.co.uk/
Click on ‘Listen’ & then on the ‘Red Crow / Pat the Budgie’ track.
Joel Mabus has been playing Irish tunes on five-string banjo since at least the late 70’s or early 80’s. I have a couple of his albums from that time. If you clear your mind of any tenor banjo expectations, it sounds pretty good and I’ll bet he’s even better now.
The G Banjo & ITM?
The G Banjo & ITM?
Specially for goosey, here's another thread from me!
I just received a fascinating E-mail from G Banjo player - Jerry Moloney, over in St. Louis & as he is something of an expert, I thought any banjo players & lovers of the instrument might be interested in his comments.
His thoughts on our recent G Banjo / Tenor Banjo debate are that -
"there is not that much difference between the 5 string and the tenor except that the tener is louder."
He believes that -
"You can get 5 strings a lot sweeter in tone than the tenor and also very close to the tenor in tone."
One problem, he believes for any G Banjo players, who want to play Irish Music, is that they already -
"... play bluegrass or some other style already and find it difficult to change over."
On a technical front -
"your fingers can only pick in one direction whereas a plectrum on the tenor you can get 2 strokes in, in the same space. This means that you have to get very fast with your fingers."
Jerry told me he does play a -
"..limited number of reels at dance speed and a bunch more at what I call listening speed."
While he has -
".. no problems with the jigs and HPs etc, although the slip jigs gave me a lot of trouble in the beginning."
Inevitably, that old fear of the strange or unknown rears it's ugly head at some sessions he attends, for the first time, & he told me he does -
"...get some resistance when I want to play with some folks that do not know me"
He says that learning to play ITM on the G Banjo is, in his opinion -
" ... not by any means easy. I thought I would never get it going for awhile but then I crossed a line and have never looked back."
The good news is that he & his friends -
" ... are working on a cd at the moment"
but in the meantime -
"I might be able to dig up some mp3s or something over the next few weeks and if I do I will forward them to you."
Many thanks to Jerry for his thoughts.
I know groups like 'Any Old Time' made the G Banjo sound absolutely brilliant with ITM, but I was wondering if anyone here had any personal experience of this instrument in sessions?
Does anyone here have any experience of playing ITM on a G Banjo?
Has anyone experienced a G Banjo playing ITM in their session or a session anywhere?
&
Did it sound authentic & Irish enough for your ears?
http://www.musicfolk.com/
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
I'm not sure why people compare the five string banjo and the tenor banjo since except for the fact that they share some common ancestory, they are totally different instruments.
Sure, you can play ITM on a five string and make it sound very good if you are skilled enough. We have a clawhammer player in our session who does very well but he has a very hard time with getting the feel of the music (and triplets.) But I suspect that this is due to a) nine months experience with ITM and b) years of experience with Old Time music.
On the other hand I have seen a few master level BG banjo players (Greg Cahill comes to mind) play the music wonderfully with all the nuances. The five string banjo just takes a higher level of accomplishment to play ITM well mostly because the styles of play are not that suited for ITM.
As for the "sweeter sound" issue, again, they are different instruments. Five string banjos have longer scales, smaller diameter strings, and are tuned to a chord. The resonances from the latter quality will add to the sweetness as does the scale/neck length. On the other hand, setup has a lot to do with how a banjo sounds, and frankly, ITM banjo players have very little interest in the sound whereas BG banjoists all aspire to a particular sound ("like Earl") and spend a lot of time on this issue. One result is a greater expertise in the art of setup.
Technically, if you use a three finger style, hitting the triplets is not that hard, Don Reno did it for years using two fingers on one string. The method is well known amongst the BG crowd. The same problems that any newbie has with ITM occur: learning that ITM is not BG and that they have nothing in common including ancestory, having to listen intently to lots of CDs and live performances to "get" the music, and being a decent musician to begin with.
There is no reason why a five string banjo player can't play the music. It just takes time, interest, and motivation.
MIke Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com/feb06/sessions.html
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by mikeyes
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
Back in the 70’s, there was a brief flurry of interest in “melodic clawhammer banjo” and an eponymous album resulted, which included some Irish tunes. The consensus among my friends was, “Okay, interesting, but why not just play tenor?”
The clawhammer attack lacks the sharp edge that a plectrum gives. But three-finger style with fingerpicks is different. I’ve heard a few half-hearted attemtps that didn’t quite work, but I don’t see why it couldn’t be brilliant, in the right hands. Listen to jambo123’s fingerstyle tenor on the Might Craic Online. It’s not five-string, but I think it proves the concept quite well.
An old friend of mine, who’s a long-time plectrum guitar player, has been experimenting with fingerpicks for melody playing. He uses a thumb pick and one finger pick to mimic the action of a plectrum. I haven’t seen him since he started this, but he reports that it works very well and has even increased his speed. There’s more than one way to pluck a string.
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
Ptarmigan my old spud
You already know my experience with Ian Carmichael, a fine 5 string plucker. I first heard him play with friends from Scotland on a visit to my native North West many years ago.Friends consisted of fluter, box player and fiddler.
His playing, in the absence of any other rhythm instruments, filled out the music and complimented the other musicians. Not in the least loud or overpowering........very pleasant to the ear and the others got a lift from his playing.
But then Ian had been playing with these guys at various gigs at the time, so obviously the sets were well rehearsed. I hasten to add though, he provided excellent accompaniment to local musicians also.
The last I heard, he got himself a tenor for ITM and was doing a great job on the tunes. I got the impression he knew of the 5 strings' limitations for playing ITM, reels especially.
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by Strathfoyle
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
Mike, I always think, rightly or wrongly, of the "clawhammer" style as being the core & original method of playing the banjo?
Does anyone know, at this stage, how the African slaves who brought this instrument to America in the first place, actually played the instrument?
When did the 5th string appear?
"There’s more than one way to pluck a string." - well said Bob!
Aye Strathfoyle, Ian could fairly rattle out da toons on the G & Tenor!
I haven't seen him for a few years now, but I'm sure others on this site see him regularly, so we might hear how he's getting on - soon........................
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
Try this, Dick:
http://bluegrassbanjo.org/banhist.html
The very old two-finger style described in the link is what the old timers in the North Georgia mountains were still playing thirty years ago. All the old guys I knew are gone now and I don't know anybody who still plays that style.
I remember meeting an old gentleman sitting in front of a little roadside store playing two-finger banjo. By means of introduction, I did some buck dancing while he played. Then we took turns playing. He referred to my clawhammer playing as "that new style."
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by Bob himself
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
Run .. don't walk and find a copy of Chris Grotewohl's CD Under the Influence. Chris is a friend of Roger Landes', who produced the CD. Roger told me this story a few years ago ... and I have no reason not to believe him ... having my own copy of Chris' CD. So the story goes ... Chris, an American 5-string bluegrass banjo player heard Bela Fleck playing some Irish tunes on 5-string, and was smitten. Chris went to the woodshed and developed a style of playing single note melody using finger picks ... kind of like Don Reno style, only far more advanced ... we're talking triplets up to speed etc. Anyway Chris runs into Bela at a workshop a few years later and tells him that he, Bela, had inspired him to play Irish tunes on the banjo ... and plays a few tunes for him ... at which point Bela looks at him and says "can you show me what you're doing, I could never get those triplets figured out"?
If you want to hear what can be done with Irish dance music on the 5-string you need to listen to Chris G.!
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by stevebenn
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
Fascinating Bob - "We know from early Banjo instruction books by performers like Thomas Briggs, 1855, Philip Rice, 1858 and Frank Converse, 1865, that the minstrel style of playing was the "downstroke", what we call frailing today. This style was learned from the slave performers themselves."
So frailing actually came from the slave musicians!
Blimey I hope that old two finger style hasn't been lost altogether Bob?
Aint it always the way though:
bigger is better!
louder is better!
faster is better!
Over Ornamented style is yer only man!
A highly developed technique is GOD!
You regularly come across this sad mentality in many sessions, where they only want to play FAST - OVER ORNAMENTED - REELS - ALL NIGHT!
Boy, are these guys ever missing the point!
Saints preserve the little tunes!
"Rant over"
Thanks Bob
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
Thanks for that Steve. I'll certainly get my hands on one of those.
Found a site but sadly, the sound clips don't work:
http://www.geocities.com/~celticreviews/under_influence.html
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
Oh, y’know, I missed that “downstoke” part. The two-finger style played by the old Geogria fellers had an upstroke with the finger. They would often brush more than one string with that finger. Doc Watson used to play a really nice clean two-finger (upstroke) style, hitting single notes with the finger. He sounded very much like really good clawhammer.
I remember an old guy named Laurence Eller, who played Georgia two-finger style. He and his brother used to play for “dances, weddings, funerals, corn shuckings and rat killings”. He said some of those affairs would last so long his finger would be bleeding before they finished, but he kept playing. He had an aggressive attack.
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by Bob himself
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
glad to see that the balance is being redressed after previous threads had pooh-poohed the notion of playing Irish or Scottish music on the 5-string.
There are a few players around doing it, at least two in Aberdeenshire alone that I can think of, mostly older guys who have more sense than to take notice of people telling what they can and can't play.
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by Bren
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
Bren - would one of those be Neil, the Geordie?
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by granama
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
You know where I stand on Jerry's 5 string playing. Actually, the session in St. Louis was a tad faster than most up to speed sessions I've played at. Jerry's listening speed I'm guessing is what I'd consider session speed.
I'll probably be heading back to St. Louis at some point this year, and I'll try to drop in again.
Eric
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by Jayhawk
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
Tom Hanway in Longford plays on a five string - I think he spends most of his time playing bluegrass. I think Mel Bay have a book by him on ITM on 5 string for Irish music.
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by Cuso
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
Dick Smith a stalwart of the north london scene is a fantastic player on 5 string. Anyone hearing him play could not claim that 5 string has no place in ITM. However if you watch him play he sweats those frets to get the right notes, using the whole neck - not something that tenor players do very much
) so I could concur that it takes significant skill to play well and at speed. In terms of speed, I would have thought that two fingers and a thumb would have been quicker than a plectrum, but never having tried it I can't claim to be any kind of expert!! All I do know is all them bluegrass boys seem to be able to play at a zillion miles an hour
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by nick b
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
Nick, just wondering, is your 'Dick Smith' the same guy featured on these sites?:
The Dick Smith ~ Mike O'Reilly Band
http://www.turtlehillbanjo.com/CDReviews.html#anchor12817
http://www.cqaf.com/music_10.html
If not, do you know if your guy has recorded!
"However if you watch him play he sweats those frets to get the right notes, using the whole neck - not something that tenor players do very much" - Aye, unless your Gerry O'Connor.
We don't usually sweat much either!
We are 'gentlemen' banjo players - we perspire!
Aye Jayhawk, I did get the impression, from Jerry's E-mail that he was a modest kinda dude, so I have an doubt that his idea of session speed is probably someone up around 'Warp Factor 5'!
Bren, I think the original thread was more poo pooing the notion that a G Banjo was an ideal beginners instrument for ITM, rather than the instrument itself & I think many statements on that, & this thread, have backed that up.
I bet Ray (RIP) had a wee thing to do with the interest in G Banjo playing up around Aberdeenshire.
Now he was one class act on the G Banjo!
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
"Has anyone experienced a G Banjo playing ITM in their session or a session anywhere?
&
Did it sound authentic & Irish enough for your ears?"
1) Yes - Tony Sullivan plays both in our session. He uses the 5 string to accompany his songs, and for some tunes.
2) I have the good fortune that my ears are not too picky about whether something "sounds irish". But it sounds very good.
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
Is the book referred to above by Bill Keith? He was associated a while back with "inventing" a style of playing old-time fiddle tunes on 5-string. As I recall the key principle was that you never play successive notes on the same string. I think Bill Keith then moved to pedal steel.
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by TomB-R
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
Unfortunately Ptarmigan I don't think either of those are him, as they are both americans, and he most certainly aint american. I know that he has hosted many sessions in camden / north london over the years in particular and has also played with people like the Alabama 3 amongst many others.
I am sure he has recorded, but not sure what (not very helpful I know) next time I see him I will aks him.
Nick
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by nick b
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
Showaddy, does Tony still use that wee plastic tube instead of a plectrum, when playing Tenor?
"He uses the 5 string to accompany his songs, and for some tunes." OK - but does Tony actually play Jigs & Reels on the G Banjo?
Chadmills, serious question! - Did anyone ever try & come up with a Pedal Steel Banjo?
Well Nick, It was just possible that one of them might have moved over from the USA to your area.
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
Dick - yes he does some of the time. I used to use one myself on a previous instrument, but what I play now works best with a soft plectrum.
Sadly my memory doesn't recall every time I ever heard Tony play the 5string - so I can't answer a categorical yes or no to whether he plays any rigs & jeels on it. But he does play plenty of tunes and we're definitely not talking bluegrass or oldtimey.
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
The high string on the 5-string also works well as a drone on slower tunes and on accompaniment. That keening "modal" sound. In some ways it's more of an "Irish" instrument than the rinky-tink tenor is.
Ptarmigan, I think "Scruggs tuners" on the banjo would be similar to the pedals on a pedal steel. Ray S didn't play so much trad Irish and Scottish, I was thinking of Neil, Alan Smart and others.
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by Bren
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
Pedal steel banjo?
(Treating the question seriously !)
The sharp banjo note decay would seem to miss the point of using a steel rather than frets.
Technically it could clearly be done, but whether it should....
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by TomB-R
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
If anyone really wants to try, and needs a book...
Streeter, Harold. Irish Jigs for Melodic Style 5 String Banjo, arranged for solo and duet. 1980. Musicprint Corp., 26pp, ($4.95)
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by TomB-R
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
The best book on the subject is by Tom Hanaway : " Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5 String Banjo" which you can get from Bayside Press (http://www.baysidepress.com/ and search "Authors" for Tom) Also, there are plenty of discussions of playing ITM on the five string on the Banjo Hangout (http://www.banjohangout.org go to Discussions and then "Other Styles")
Bill Keith is still alive and playing banjo. In fact along with Earl Scruggs and a few others is considered a banjo icon. He helped develop the melodic style of banjo playing and one hallmark is a constant flow of notes which means that notes are played on different strings as a rule without repeating a string twice, unless you have to which occurs. Bobby Thompson is the other person most linked to this style but there are plenty of authors.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com/feb06/sessions.html
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by mikeyes
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
Just an echo ot the best book on the subject by Tom Hanaway, he does at length explain how the 5 string Banjo will fit into the Irish/celtic music, he also warns you about uncorking one at a session. You better have practiced the melodies and can demonstrate proficiency and have thick skin and be as obnoxious as some of the other players. It will work and it is up to the 5 string player to demonstrate it's place here, it isn't going to be easy but I accept it as a challenge. I suppose you could lay back and beat on one of those drum thingie's with a toothpick between your teeth, that is the easy way out.
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by Blarney
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
By the way, if you are interested in Bill Keith, there is a free instructional video (two actually, about half an hour apiece) on http://video.google.com all you have to do is put in the word "banjo" in the search box. You might want to look up "Irish music" too.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com/feb06/sessions.html
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by mikeyes
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
Just came across these & thought all you Banjo dudes might enjoy a listen:
Banish Misfortune:
http://bluesageband.com/Tab%20MP3s/banish%20m..mp3
Coloraine:
http://bluesageband.com/Tab%20MP3s/coloraine%20M.mp3
New Rigged Ship:
http://bluesageband.com/Tab%20MP3s/newriggedship2%20M2.mp3
Julia Delany:
http://bluesageband.com/Tab%20MP3s/julia%20delaney.mp3
Black Nag:
http://bluesageband.com/Tab%20MP3s br / black%20nag%20M.mp3
Kesh Jig:
http://bluesageband.com/Tab%20MP3s/keshjig1%20M2.mp3
Off to California:
http://bluesageband.com/Tab%20MP3s/Off%20to%20California%20M.mp3
Ships Are Sailing:
http://bluesageband.com/Tab%20MP3s/ships%202%20M.mp3
Star of the County Down:
http://bluesageband.com/Tab%20MP3s/Star%20of%20the%20Co%20Down%20M.mp3
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
I had a couple of interesting replies on a Banjo Board on this topic, which I thought I'd share with you.
'Jim' recommended Tom Hanway's book:
Mel Bay's Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5-String Banjo:
http://www.tomhanway.com/
He wrote:
"I think he'd be a good resource to answer your questions"
Tobes wrote:
"As for the authentic and irish sound..........well!
Now its true that you will not get a 5 string to sound absolutely identical to a tenor.
But then again why would you want to!
Part of the joy of playing Irish trad music on the 5 string is the way in which you can approach tunes in a slightly different way - especially by utilising the melodic style of playing. However, having said that there are many tunes that i play, both with the band I am in and at sessions, that I just play straight and true to the sheet music.
As for players out there - try checking out Leon Hunt (uk banjo player, check his solo album out) - and as mentioned before the very wonderful Mr Tom Hanway."
RB-1's input was:
"I've been playing (besides bluegrass and related stuff) Irish tunes on and off, using 3 finger style.
Last weekend Elly had to record an Irish poem to which she wrote some music.
The intention was to put in an all instrumental part with an Irish tune.
She decided for "The Merry Blacksmith".
Elly played guitar, tinwhistle, fiddle and bodhran and I added mandolin.
Still I wanted to try the banjo too but I wasn't satisfied with the result.
Then I took out a flatpick and gave it another swing.
The result was much more like we wanted.
Actually Elly mentioned it had the drive and pulse normally associated with the Irish tenorbanjo style."
My response to their replies was:
"I agree wholeheartedly with Tobes when he says, why would you want a G Banjo to sound just like a Tenor Banjo, cause there are Fiddle players on the West coast of Scotland who try & make their Fiddles sound just like Bagpipes & there too I say, what's the point.
The Fiddle, like the G Banjo has it's own sound & that's what we should be rejoicing in when we play it.
Bit like those bad parents who don't let their kids be themselves, but rather try & mould them into something they would like them to be!
Now that is sad!
RB-1 really said it all when he reached for a plectrum to play his G Banjo, to make it sound like a Tenor!
Any thoughts?
# Posted on March 8th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: G Banjo playing tasty ITM - have a listen
Chris Grotewohl recorded this tune in '97 with John Whelan, Roger Landes and Zan McLeod. Normal G tuning on a Stelling. http://irish5string.homestead.com/files/TOM_billy_s.mp3
Chris Grotewohl
http://irish5string.homestead.com/chrisG.html
# Posted on March 12th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Another couple of Reels from Chris on G Banjo.
Thanks to Chris for posting these Reels:
http://irish5string.homestead.com/files/Trimotor_Reel_Set.mp3
"This is done single string style using fingerpicks.
Again on a Stelling"
Chris Grotewohl
http://irish5string.homestead.com/chrisG.html
# Posted on March 13th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Video clip of Mike McGoldrick playing Reel with G Banjo player
G Banjo fans should check this out. A video clip of Leon Hunt on G Banjo playing with John Joe Kelly – Bodhran, Michael McGoldrick – Low Whistle & Ed Boyd - Guitar
- The Silver Spire - from the Cambridge Folk Festival highlights 2004 on BBC4
http://www.leonhunt.com/music.html
Also, check out this sound clip of Leon Hunt, on G Banjo, & friends playing two reels at:
http://www.hootenanny3.co.uk/
Click on ‘Listen’ & then on the ‘Red Crow / Pat the Budgie’ track.
# Posted on March 15th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
Joel Mabus has been playing Irish tunes on five-string banjo since at least the late 70’s or early 80’s. I have a couple of his albums from that time. If you clear your mind of any tenor banjo expectations, it sounds pretty good and I’ll bet he’s even better now.
# Posted on March 15th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: The G Banjo & ITM?
Off Topic Bob, but here's an article written by Joel - it seems us ITM guys aren't the only ones who dislike the term 'folk'!
# Posted on March 15th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Of course we musn't forget the - BANJOMER!
SEE THEM:
http://www.dulcimerhouse.com/mcspadden_dulcimer_banjomer.htm
HEAR THEM:
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/dthomson
# Posted on March 16th 2006 by Ptarmigan