I'm in flute trio and we just finished doing a "trad. irish tune". It didn't sound at all like ITM. When I'm playing jigs, reels, ect. (on my whistle) they sound just as classical. I've searched past disscussions long and hard to find ways to avoid the classical sound but everything I find is bowing teqnique for fiddlers. Aside from my cd collection, I don't have much to go by here on the west coast of Canada so any tips are appeciated quite a bit!
Thank you!
I don't know how you play now, or how you want to play whistle or flute. But, first of all you have to bear in mind that Irish & Scottish folk music is dance music. So, just like Baroque styles, trad Irish styles are characterised by more emphasis on rhythm and much less vibrato. And there are techniques like cuts, taps, rolls, etc. to make tunes sound more interesting. You'll find some discussions on those techniques if you search this site.
And yes, listening is very important. Familiarise yourself with various trad styles and keep away from classical music, and gradually your playing will come to sound "dirty" and more authentic.
Well, let's pretend it's not Irish Music you want to 'DO'.
Let's say you're Emma Kirkby and you say, " I'm doing a Jazz song with the Academy of Ancient Music. I try to sing 'I Cover The Waterfront', but it comes out sounding like Purcell. - how do I get to sound like Billie Holiday"
Really the answer must be to start drinking gin and dabbling with narcotics, and listen to Jazz musicians, and get WANT to sound like a saxophone. In other words BECOME a Jazz singer - then you will sing Jazz in a jazzy style.
OR - You could try get a record and try to imitate her vocal mannerisms. You could attempt to IMPERSONATE her.
But what would be the point of sounding like you're something you're not?
How would you become a true irish whistle player while still being a classical flute player? There are those who are jazz and classical musicians. They play both equally well, it's not impossible.They are not classical musicians pretending to play jazz or vice versa, they simply are both.
Sorry, WW, you misunderstand me. I'm not saying you can't, or shouldn't, play both, just trying to point out that it's a long-term endeavour, not just a matter of picking up a few tips and gettting the tune to 'sound like ITM' - the reason ITM players sound like ITM players is immersion, and that's the key i guess, not any particular stylistic tip. Paul (luap) is correct that cutting down on tonguing is not a bad place to start, but a good whistle player can tongue a lot and still sound like an Irish player. Starting from being a classical musician might indeed be a lot harder than starting from being a non-musician.
My last sentence was not meant to be disparaging or disheartening, another, more positive way of putting it might be 'Your whistle playing will sound Irish when you become an Irish-whistle player.'
The website Laitch cites is a great resource BTW, as are CDS by the likes of Mary Bergin, Sean Ryan or Joanie Madden.....
Mark
I had the same problem transitioning on the whistle from an approach influenced by a life of playing jazz trumpet and listening to American fife players to an Irish approach. As stated above, main key is to get that tongue under control. I forced myself to play tunes without any tonguing at all for a while just to break myself of the habit of using it too much. To do that, you need to learn at a minimum cuts and taps, which are the first steps toward learning Irish ornamentation.
I still have some tonguing and swingy jazz timing that sneaks in from time to time, and tend to use less ornaments than some others around me, but like a speaking accent, it is hard to lose all traces of your roots (and in the end, don't you want to sound like you?).
Good luck,
I have found, playing out of numerous bags - Jazz, Funk and now Irish that you have to find out what it is that YOU do. Not "pretending" to be this or that. Ya start somewhere and become something, then you discover something new and you can be that as well.
Hey Wind Whisperer. I am a fiddler who can barely play the Skye Boat Song on the whistle, but having made the switch from classical violin to fiddle, I suspect the secret to an authentic sound may lie in ornamentation.
And yes - where on the West Coast of Canada?
As a classical musician who made the transition, I can assure you that you can obtain almost instant results (add grains of salt here) by applying the basic rules:
1. have a good sense of rhythm, or give up
2. stop tonguing, use taps and cuts to separate notes
3. play everything as legato
4. read Brother Steve's guide
The results are amazing. Then you'll have a lifetime to improve your style, i.e. adding the bubbly bits known as ornamentation. I'm working hard to make my rolls more crisp.
I occasionally play Renaissance music with Irish style to annoy fellow classical musicians. The problem is, they find the style "peculiar" but they like it...
Playing Traditional Music is a lifetime endeavour for anyone - even the great masters. They happened to start with the basic traditional elements already embedded in them, and had to learn the technique. A classical musician starts with the basic technical elements and has to learn the tradition.
The difference is, technique can be learned anywhere, whilst learning the tradition requires immersion.
Wind Whisperer - One small suggestion: It might be beneficial to you to start playing another instrument concurrently with the whistle. Much of your 'classical' feel is in the mechanical memory of your fingers, lungs, tongue etc. If you were to try learning the music on an instrument using unfamiliar techniques, it would give you the opportunity to start without being trapped in a habitual manner of playing. As you learn the tunes on your other instrument and develop a feel for the music, you can transfer that to your whistle playing. You will find that, once you have the music in you, you will discover how to reproduce it on your instrument.
The problem is, what instrument to suggest. If you played something else, the obvious suggestion would be the whistle. But you already play the whistle.
If you do get in to Vancouver from time to time, there are sessions 3X a week at the Wolf and Hound at Broadway and Dunbar (MWF) with Monday being more of a beginners/slow session, W much more varied, and Friday Cape Breton. The Celtic Woollens shop at 10th and Alma also gives lessons.
This would give you a chance to hear it live. A few lessons can save a lot of time....
The youngest participant is playing a 1/4 size Suzuki fiddle, and looks to be about 5 years old. There are several who attend who can't be older than ten (also fiddlers). There's a woman and her son (10-11 I am guessing?) who are both learning the whistle. I am sure you could sit beside a good whistle player just to listen, and that people would be happy to see you.
You could call Michael Pratt at 604 222-2299 for info. He runs the Monday night session, and the lessons at the Celtic Woollens shop (number is for the shop).
Check out The Essential Guide to Irish Flute and Tin Whistle by Grey Larsen. CD's are included to illustrate the entire book. Less expensive is The Essential Tin Whistle Tool Box by the same author (I'm not sure if it has CD's). And of course, listen, listen, listen.
Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
I'm in flute trio and we just finished doing a "trad. irish tune". It didn't sound at all like ITM. When I'm playing jigs, reels, ect. (on my whistle) they sound just as classical. I've searched past disscussions long and hard to find ways to avoid the classical sound but everything I find is bowing teqnique for fiddlers. Aside from my cd collection, I don't have much to go by here on the west coast of Canada so any tips are appeciated quite a bit!
Thank you!
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by wind whisperer
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
Paralyse your tongue and articulate the tune with decorations.
Tongue (when you've learned the fingers bit) with a soft d or hduh instead of a t or k.
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by LastToFinish
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
I don't know how you play now, or how you want to play whistle or flute. But, first of all you have to bear in mind that Irish & Scottish folk music is dance music. So, just like Baroque styles, trad Irish styles are characterised by more emphasis on rhythm and much less vibrato. And there are techniques like cuts, taps, rolls, etc. to make tunes sound more interesting. You'll find some discussions on those techniques if you search this site.
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by slainte
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
And yes, listening is very important. Familiarise yourself with various trad styles and keep away from classical music, and gradually your playing will come to sound "dirty" and more authentic.
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by slainte
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
Well, let's pretend it's not Irish Music you want to 'DO'.
Let's say you're Emma Kirkby and you say, " I'm doing a Jazz song with the Academy of Ancient Music. I try to sing 'I Cover The Waterfront', but it comes out sounding like Purcell. - how do I get to sound like Billie Holiday"
Really the answer must be to start drinking gin and dabbling with narcotics, and listen to Jazz musicians, and get WANT to sound like a saxophone. In other words BECOME a Jazz singer - then you will sing Jazz in a jazzy style.
OR - You could try get a record and try to imitate her vocal mannerisms. You could attempt to IMPERSONATE her.
But what would be the point of sounding like you're something you're not?
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
How would you become a true irish whistle player while still being a classical flute player? There are those who are jazz and classical musicians. They play both equally well, it's not impossible.They are not classical musicians pretending to play jazz or vice versa, they simply are both.
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by wind whisperer
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by joesmith
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
I second the recomendation for Brother Steve.
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
Sorry, WW, you misunderstand me. I'm not saying you can't, or shouldn't, play both, just trying to point out that it's a long-term endeavour, not just a matter of picking up a few tips and gettting the tune to 'sound like ITM' - the reason ITM players sound like ITM players is immersion, and that's the key i guess, not any particular stylistic tip. Paul (luap) is correct that cutting down on tonguing is not a bad place to start, but a good whistle player can tongue a lot and still sound like an Irish player. Starting from being a classical musician might indeed be a lot harder than starting from being a non-musician.
My last sentence was not meant to be disparaging or disheartening, another, more positive way of putting it might be 'Your whistle playing will sound Irish when you become an Irish-whistle player.'
The website Laitch cites is a great resource BTW, as are CDS by the likes of Mary Bergin, Sean Ryan or Joanie Madden.....
Mark
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
I had the same problem transitioning on the whistle from an approach influenced by a life of playing jazz trumpet and listening to American fife players to an Irish approach. As stated above, main key is to get that tongue under control. I forced myself to play tunes without any tonguing at all for a while just to break myself of the habit of using it too much. To do that, you need to learn at a minimum cuts and taps, which are the first steps toward learning Irish ornamentation.
I still have some tonguing and swingy jazz timing that sneaks in from time to time, and tend to use less ornaments than some others around me, but like a speaking accent, it is hard to lose all traces of your roots (and in the end, don't you want to sound like you?).
Good luck,
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
I have found, playing out of numerous bags - Jazz, Funk and now Irish that you have to find out what it is that YOU do. Not "pretending" to be this or that. Ya start somewhere and become something, then you discover something new and you can be that as well.
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by flutedoog
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
Wind Whisperer - where abouts on the west coast of Canada?
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by bb
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
flutedoog,
That is a good way to look at--becoming something new.
Thanks,
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
Hey Wind Whisperer. I am a fiddler who can barely play the Skye Boat Song on the whistle, but having made the switch from classical violin to fiddle, I suspect the secret to an authentic sound may lie in ornamentation.
And yes - where on the West Coast of Canada?
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by treecipitation
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
About an hours drive from Vancover.
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by wind whisperer
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
As a classical musician who made the transition, I can assure you that you can obtain almost instant results (add grains of salt here) by applying the basic rules:
1. have a good sense of rhythm, or give up
2. stop tonguing, use taps and cuts to separate notes
3. play everything as legato
4. read Brother Steve's guide
The results are amazing. Then you'll have a lifetime to improve your style, i.e. adding the bubbly bits known as ornamentation. I'm working hard to make my rolls more crisp.
I occasionally play Renaissance music with Irish style to annoy fellow classical musicians. The problem is, they find the style "peculiar" but they like it...
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by Guidus
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
Playing Traditional Music is a lifetime endeavour for anyone - even the great masters. They happened to start with the basic traditional elements already embedded in them, and had to learn the technique. A classical musician starts with the basic technical elements and has to learn the tradition.
The difference is, technique can be learned anywhere, whilst learning the tradition requires immersion.
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by ragaman
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
Wind Whisperer - One small suggestion: It might be beneficial to you to start playing another instrument concurrently with the whistle. Much of your 'classical' feel is in the mechanical memory of your fingers, lungs, tongue etc. If you were to try learning the music on an instrument using unfamiliar techniques, it would give you the opportunity to start without being trapped in a habitual manner of playing. As you learn the tunes on your other instrument and develop a feel for the music, you can transfer that to your whistle playing. You will find that, once you have the music in you, you will discover how to reproduce it on your instrument.
The problem is, what instrument to suggest. If you played something else, the obvious suggestion would be the whistle. But you already play the whistle.
Any suggestions, anyone?
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by ragaman
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
http://www.melbay.com/product.asp?ProductID=98214BCD&Heading=Tinwhistle%3A+Methods%2FStudy&category=T24&catID=142&head1=&head2=Tinwhistle&sub=1&sub1=&mode=browse
Lots of good advice here from a seasoned pro.
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by ceciltguitar
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
p.s. I found this book in the local public library. You might find it, or another good one in your local library.
Best wishes!
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by ceciltguitar
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
If you do get in to Vancouver from time to time, there are sessions 3X a week at the Wolf and Hound at Broadway and Dunbar (MWF) with Monday being more of a beginners/slow session, W much more varied, and Friday Cape Breton. The Celtic Woollens shop at 10th and Alma also gives lessons.
This would give you a chance to hear it live. A few lessons can save a lot of time....
Hugh
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by flutefry
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
Don't think they would let me in though, I'm not old enough.
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by wind whisperer
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
The youngest participant is playing a 1/4 size Suzuki fiddle, and looks to be about 5 years old. There are several who attend who can't be older than ten (also fiddlers). There's a woman and her son (10-11 I am guessing?) who are both learning the whistle. I am sure you could sit beside a good whistle player just to listen, and that people would be happy to see you.
You could call Michael Pratt at 604 222-2299 for info. He runs the Monday night session, and the lessons at the Celtic Woollens shop (number is for the shop).
Hugh
# Posted on March 2nd 2006 by flutefry
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
O!
# Posted on March 3rd 2006 by wind whisperer
Re: Avoiding classical sound on WHISTLE
Check out The Essential Guide to Irish Flute and Tin Whistle by Grey Larsen. CD's are included to illustrate the entire book. Less expensive is The Essential Tin Whistle Tool Box by the same author (I'm not sure if it has CD's). And of course, listen, listen, listen.
# Posted on March 5th 2006 by lindag