Trevor - Yer average bodhranist can't cope with 4/4.
(For any bodhran players that haven't realised yet, bodhran bashing is par de cours on this website. I'm trying for a promotion, so don't take it personally).
The bodhran-bashing that goes on in this forum is beyond the pale. Those of you with an agenda need to lighten up...I don't care if you're out for a promotion (to what? I've got some suggestions for you, but I think you're already head of the class...). I'm getting bashed on another thread by a renny player and a guy in Scotland who can't possible have heard me play other than the many CDs I've performed on. Taking that into account, his comments don't even apply. The Renny thing automatically deletes any sort of competency from you and the viola player from Scotland?? No comment.
Bodhran2112, I am just joking when I mention Bodhrans. In fact I am usually sitting right between two Bodhrans and a Banjo at my session. Try to lighen up, I jsut got into a decent size fight on the Chiff and Fipple Flute forum, and I was litterally attacked for my opinion on a maker of Flutes and how I liked them, and that was my favorite forum to go to. Ther person thought they could jusge my experience by how long I have been playing, and my age (17), so I am no stranger to what you are feeling right now. Remember, it is best to ignore any negative comment that your favorite Viola player makes, he does that to everyone.
Those that hang out at Ren Fairs and live in some fantasy world while playing D&D or Magic Cards. Anyone that knows who LeRoy Jenkins is qualifies. If you don't...don't ask. You're better for it.
"The bodhran-bashing that goes on in this forum is beyond the pale."
Well - if you knows of a better hole . . . .
Accordions / Fiddles / Banjos / Backers of all sorts / Flutes / Pipes - all get a good bashing too at various times on this site.
And sometimes one of them gets the hump and has a rant too. But overall I'd say it's a sign of a good healthy relationship between the various contributors.
Personally I get hacked off by people who come here and complain that they don't like it - while not even having the common courtesy to put a little about themselves in their profile. But hey - that's just me being fussy.
I'm sorry unseen, but I cant read music. But basically you ask, "should it be like this, or this?" I think the answer is play it anyway you want.
And as far as bodhran bashing goes, it ain't friendly banter with me. I am your quintessential evangelical bodhran hater. There is nothing, NOTHING, ever invented on this earth that has the power to wreck a session than a god damn bodhran. Even "good" bodhran players know this.
I had to ask someone to shut up the other night. I felt awful. Don't get me wrong here, I didn't do it out of spite. The person in question was quite simply wrecking a good session. Two guitars (who are very sympathetic to each other), four fiddles, a mandolin and THREE bodhrans. One of the players is pretty good, a bit too up and down scales etc, but quite quiet. The other was pretty awful, but very quiet. And the third was really really loud, slow, and that really really annoying thing, slightly behind the beat. It just dragged everything down like a walking through treacle.
I first asked for emotional back up from my mates, then took the plunge. But at the very last minute I chickened out, and instead of asking her to stop I asked her to play more quietly.
She replied, "that's funny, no-one has ever said I was too loud before. Usually its the other way round."
So I said, "It's not just that, you are playing too slow and behind the beat." Everybody else looked at each other and nodded.
So what happened? She packed up and left in a huff, probably fuming to herself that I was the rudest bastard that ever lived. I mean what can you do? Just what can you do?
The argument against bodhrans is simple. They are thwacked by two types of people. musicians and non musicians. It's obvious why you should keep non musisians away from a session. But if you are a musician, for the life of me why not play the bloody tunes instead.
Hi Unseei22, I've written some tunes in 7/8 and other unusual (at least in UK sessions) rhythms. One of my favourites is 12/8 divided 2,2,3,2,3. I find splitting the rhythms into 2 and 3 count sections helps me get the pattern easily. For 7/8 you might think of it as any of the following combinations of 2 and 3.
223
232
322
In fact, I think I'll write a 7/8 tune to celebrate the session .org and post it in the tunes section.
"I think a Bodhranist would do the same thing to 7/8 that they do to 2/2 or 6/8, mess it up horribly. "
Man my tongue is getting really sore with having to keep my teeth clamped down on it! Oh to have this vision of someone needing a mirror leave my mind.
I've written a tune in 7/8.You can see and hear it on www.tunefull.org under the category Other.It's called Man From Bitola(Bitola is a place in Macedonia).Tell me what You think of it,Unseen!
Went to an evening session in a certain East Riding town last week - there was a bodhranistina who had specially greased the beater - it kept flying out of her hand across the room like an exocet.
She then proceded to try and dance about and play at the same time - unfortunately, the sea was too rough and she coudn't keep her balance. Well, it was either the rough sea or the fact she had also been to the afternoon session as well.
(So had I).
MG I sympathise with your plight & fair play for speaking up. A man's gotta do what a ......but why don't you also post that story over on the 'Mark Stone Bodhran Workshop' thread?
Sorry, Bodhran2112 - I haven't mastered conveying tone of voice in writing. But, really, don't take it personally - as Unseen says, just ignore me, I'm not worth it. Besides, a bodhran player who has played on many CDs is not 'yer average bodhran player', so it wasn't directed at you anyway.
Sometimes I wish I were Michael Gill.
Oldstrings - 'Quirl' is a German word and the only person I have ever heard use it is my father (who spent the first 14 years of his life in Germany). Yes, it could be used for stirring bodily excretions, but only after it has retired from serving its intended purpose. It could also be used for playing the bodhran.
To answer Trevor's question, you play along with the tune, by listening. I have no idea what 7/8, 7/7 or 7/5 are, you listen, and then add to the overall sound.
To answer Michael's question as to why musicians play the bodhran, there are lots of reasons. I play the bodhran instead of the mandolin to tunes for the same reason that Tiger Woods plays golf instead of baseball. He would just be another baseball player, at golf he is the best. I apply the same logic to my choice of instruments in regard to tunes.
And the bodhran compliments the tunes much better than the mandolin could.
Michael, I was showing Anna how to convert 9/8 to 7/8, I know how to play it myself.
Tag, the 7/8 version of Thunderhead is in the comments section for the tune. One way to look a 7/8 is think 3/4 but one of the beats is a triplet, so it could be 1 and 2 and 3 and a, or the triplet in a different spotdepending on the tune. Thunderhead has it 1 and a 2 an 3 and.
If you search 7/8 in the advanced search of the tunes you get a couple. One is a version of My Love is in America, in 7/8 it is pretty cool.
I will have to check that tune out MikeS.
Ed, you coming down for the Raffertys on the 24th?
No, you are taking away half of the first quarter note, you are thinking that I am balancing the notes by adding 8ths, I was not. Even though now I look back and it does look that way, I meant it should be the first two beats have a valyue of a quarter each. Just a litt late night mistake (I was typing that around quarter to 2 in the morning).
In some of the Balkan countries, like Bulgaria, Greece, Macedonia, or Turkey, 7/8 and other "odd" rhythms are common in folk music, and as Pied Piper describes they are usually made up of groups of 2 or 3 eighth notes. So a 7/8 time is usually 3-2-2 or 2-2-3. The long (3) count in the measure is accented and tunes are classified partly by where the 3 occurs within the measure. Slow "lesnoto" dances are often done in 3-2-2, and faster "rachenitsa" dances are in 2-2-3. The long, accented 3rd beat gives these tunes a wonderful driving quality. Sometimes the 2s are combined into a longer beat, as in 4-3. Often these tunes are also songs, and of course not every possible eighth note is sung, but there will be an instrumental break in which the individual eighth notes tend to be articulated as an instrumental melody, and within this syncopations are often done to contrast with the rhythm of the song proper.
If you're playing a rhythm instrument you can do this as three quarter notes with an extra eighth note, as in "dum-da, dum, dum" or "dum, dum, dum-die" (not to be confused with dumb, dumb, and dumber). I've played or accompanied these tunes on guitar and fiddle but have never played bodhran. If a bodhran player wants to hit every beat I guess you would be combining reel and jig patterns within a single measure, probably accenting the first eighth note of each group, and especially in the longer group: ONE-two-three, One-two, One-two.
Maybe when 7/8 tunes are done with an Irish accent they would turn out quite different from all this. I can recall hearing Kevin Burke play a Romanian tune I know as Hora ca la caval (a 4/4 type of tune), and it sounded great, but he had smoothed out the hesitations or slightly dotted rhythms that are part of the Romanian tune (as played by Gheorghe Zamfir and others).
7/8 Tunes
7/8 Tunes
What do you guys think of them?
I love 'em, in fact if you got any good ones (and yes I know Thunderhead already) point me the right way, I need a new challenge.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: 7/8 Tunes
I love ‘em, too. I like to improvise in 7/8 when I’m noodling.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: 7/8 Tunes
We find slip jigs shoe horn quite successfully into 7/8. Donald, Willie And His Dog is a good one, but there are plenty of others
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: 7/8 Tunes
That is an interesting idea Michael. I think Promenade would work too, I will have to try it out.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: 7/8 Tunes
Tell me, how does yer average bodhranist cope (or not) with 7/8, or 5/8 for that matter?
Now there's an idea - split the 12/8 of a slide into 7/8+5/8.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: 7/8 Tunes
Trevor - Yer average bodhranist can't cope with 4/4.
(For any bodhran players that haven't realised yet, bodhran bashing is par de cours on this website. I'm trying for a promotion, so don't take it personally).
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by granama
Re: 7/8 Tunes
I think a Bodhranist would do the same thing to 7/8 that they do to 2/2 or 6/8, mess it up horribly.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: 7/8 Tunes
The bodhran-bashing that goes on in this forum is beyond the pale. Those of you with an agenda need to lighten up...I don't care if you're out for a promotion (to what? I've got some suggestions for you, but I think you're already head of the class...). I'm getting bashed on another thread by a renny player and a guy in Scotland who can't possible have heard me play other than the many CDs I've performed on. Taking that into account, his comments don't even apply. The Renny thing automatically deletes any sort of competency from you and the viola player from Scotland?? No comment.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Mark Stone
Re: 7/8 Tunes
QUIRL?? My dictionary shows nothing between quirk and quirt!
Is a quirl also used for stirring bodily excretions?
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by oldstrings
Re: 7/8 Tunes
Bodhran2112, I am just joking when I mention Bodhrans. In fact I am usually sitting right between two Bodhrans and a Banjo at my session. Try to lighen up, I jsut got into a decent size fight on the Chiff and Fipple Flute forum, and I was litterally attacked for my opinion on a maker of Flutes and how I liked them, and that was my favorite forum to go to. Ther person thought they could jusge my experience by how long I have been playing, and my age (17), so I am no stranger to what you are feeling right now. Remember, it is best to ignore any negative comment that your favorite Viola player makes, he does that to everyone.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: 7/8 Tunes
While I'm on a quest for knowledge, what's a renny?
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by oldstrings
Re: 7/8 Tunes
Those that hang out at Ren Fairs and live in some fantasy world while playing D&D or Magic Cards. Anyone that knows who LeRoy Jenkins is qualifies. If you don't...don't ask. You're better for it.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Mark Stone
Re: 7/8 Tunes
how exactly do you go about changing a 9/8 tune to 7/8?
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by banana512
Re: 7/8 Tunes
Lets take the Promenade which I mention before.
Here is the first bar in 9/8:
X: 1
L: 1/8
K: Ador
R: Slip Jig
M: 9/8
e2A A2G F2E
Here it is in 7/8:
X: 1
L: 1/8
K: Ador
M: 7/8
eA AG F2E
Notice I have changed the e2A to eA meaning that instead of quarter 8th rhythm it is now Quarter Quarter, in other words it is played straight.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Unseen122
Mistake in ABCs
Should be liek this
X: 1
L: 1/8
K: Ador
R: Slip Jig
M: 9/8
e2A A2G E2D
Here it is in 7/8:
X: 1
L: 1/8
K: Ador
M: 7/8
eA AG E2D
Remember, Pens do not make good Practice Whistles.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Unseen122
Mistake in ABCs
Like*
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: 7/8 Tunes
"The bodhran-bashing that goes on in this forum is beyond the pale."
Well - if you knows of a better hole . . . .
Accordions / Fiddles / Banjos / Backers of all sorts / Flutes / Pipes - all get a good bashing too at various times on this site.
And sometimes one of them gets the hump and has a rant too. But overall I'd say it's a sign of a good healthy relationship between the various contributors.
Personally I get hacked off by people who come here and complain that they don't like it - while not even having the common courtesy to put a little about themselves in their profile. But hey - that's just me being fussy.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: 7/8 Tunes
How do you count 7/8 tunes.?
One- and- a Two- and- a One ,One- and- a Two- and- a One ?
Please advise.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by tag
Re: 7/8 Tunes
That's a terrible stutter you've got there, tag. The next number is 3.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Dow
Re: 7/8 Tunes
Thanks for the correction!
I dont know any 7/8 tunes and looked up Thunderhead sheet music , only to find it all in 6/8.
Whats going on?
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by tag
Re: 7/8 Tunes
I'm sorry unseen, but I cant read music. But basically you ask, "should it be like this, or this?" I think the answer is play it anyway you want.
And as far as bodhran bashing goes, it ain't friendly banter with me. I am your quintessential evangelical bodhran hater. There is nothing, NOTHING, ever invented on this earth that has the power to wreck a session than a god damn bodhran. Even "good" bodhran players know this.
I had to ask someone to shut up the other night. I felt awful. Don't get me wrong here, I didn't do it out of spite. The person in question was quite simply wrecking a good session. Two guitars (who are very sympathetic to each other), four fiddles, a mandolin and THREE bodhrans. One of the players is pretty good, a bit too up and down scales etc, but quite quiet. The other was pretty awful, but very quiet. And the third was really really loud, slow, and that really really annoying thing, slightly behind the beat. It just dragged everything down like a walking through treacle.
I first asked for emotional back up from my mates, then took the plunge. But at the very last minute I chickened out, and instead of asking her to stop I asked her to play more quietly.
She replied, "that's funny, no-one has ever said I was too loud before. Usually its the other way round."
So I said, "It's not just that, you are playing too slow and behind the beat." Everybody else looked at each other and nodded.
So what happened? She packed up and left in a huff, probably fuming to herself that I was the rudest bastard that ever lived. I mean what can you do? Just what can you do?
The argument against bodhrans is simple. They are thwacked by two types of people. musicians and non musicians. It's obvious why you should keep non musisians away from a session. But if you are a musician, for the life of me why not play the bloody tunes instead.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: 7/8 Tunes
Hi Unseei22, I've written some tunes in 7/8 and other unusual (at least in UK sessions) rhythms. One of my favourites is 12/8 divided 2,2,3,2,3. I find splitting the rhythms into 2 and 3 count sections helps me get the pattern easily. For 7/8 you might think of it as any of the following combinations of 2 and 3.
223
232
322
In fact, I think I'll write a 7/8 tune to celebrate the session .org and post it in the tunes section.
PP
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Pied Piper
Re: 7/8 Tunes
"I think a Bodhranist would do the same thing to 7/8 that they do to 2/2 or 6/8, mess it up horribly.
"
Man my tongue is getting really sore with having to keep my teeth clamped down on it! Oh to have this vision of someone needing a mirror leave my mind.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by ejsant
Re: 7/8 Tunes
I've written a tune in 7/8.You can see and hear it on www.tunefull.org under the category Other.It's called Man From Bitola(Bitola is a place in Macedonia).Tell me what You think of it,Unseen!
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by MikeS
Re: Exocet beater
Went to an evening session in a certain East Riding town last week - there was a bodhranistina who had specially greased the beater - it kept flying out of her hand across the room like an exocet.
She then proceded to try and dance about and play at the same time - unfortunately, the sea was too rough and she coudn't keep her balance. Well, it was either the rough sea or the fact she had also been to the afternoon session as well.
(So had I).
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by geoffwright
Re: 7/8 Tunes
MG I sympathise with your plight & fair play for speaking up. A man's gotta do what a ......but why don't you also post that story over on the 'Mark Stone Bodhran Workshop' thread?
Surely it belongs over there, too?
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: 7/8 Tunes
Sorry, Bodhran2112 - I haven't mastered conveying tone of voice in writing. But, really, don't take it personally - as Unseen says, just ignore me, I'm not worth it. Besides, a bodhran player who has played on many CDs is not 'yer average bodhran player', so it wasn't directed at you anyway.
Sometimes I wish I were Michael Gill.
Oldstrings - 'Quirl' is a German word and the only person I have ever heard use it is my father (who spent the first 14 years of his life in Germany). Yes, it could be used for stirring bodily excretions, but only after it has retired from serving its intended purpose. It could also be used for playing the bodhran.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by granama
Re: 7/8 Tunes
if you Google "Quirl" then our very own man comes up in second place on the list.
If you look up Quirl in Yahoo - top of the list is a site for Irish Lesbians - called Quirl.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: 7/8 Tunes
To answer Trevor's question, you play along with the tune, by listening. I have no idea what 7/8, 7/7 or 7/5 are, you listen, and then add to the overall sound.
To answer Michael's question as to why musicians play the bodhran, there are lots of reasons. I play the bodhran instead of the mandolin to tunes for the same reason that Tiger Woods plays golf instead of baseball. He would just be another baseball player, at golf he is the best. I apply the same logic to my choice of instruments in regard to tunes.
And the bodhran compliments the tunes much better than the mandolin could.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: 7/8 Tunes
Michael, I was showing Anna how to convert 9/8 to 7/8, I know how to play it myself.
Tag, the 7/8 version of Thunderhead is in the comments section for the tune. One way to look a 7/8 is think 3/4 but one of the beats is a triplet, so it could be 1 and 2 and 3 and a, or the triplet in a different spotdepending on the tune. Thunderhead has it 1 and a 2 an 3 and.
If you search 7/8 in the advanced search of the tunes you get a couple. One is a version of My Love is in America, in 7/8 it is pretty cool.
I will have to check that tune out MikeS.
Ed, you coming down for the Raffertys on the 24th?
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: 7/8 Tunes
maybe im confused, but wouldn;t that make it 11/8 then? cause if you add two more 8th notes? Sorry, im a little slow sometimes.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by banana512
Re: 7/8 Tunes
No, you are taking away half of the first quarter note, you are thinking that I am balancing the notes by adding 8ths, I was not. Even though now I look back and it does look that way, I meant it should be the first two beats have a valyue of a quarter each. Just a litt late night mistake (I was typing that around quarter to 2 in the morning).
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: 7/8 Tunes
Many thanks!
Unseen122
TAG
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by tag
Re: 7/8 Tunes
Sorry can't understand ABC notation.
Anybody got Thunderhead in 7/8 written in dots?
TAG
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by tag
Re: 7/8 Tunes
LLLLLLLLeeerrrroooooyyyyyyyyyyyy n'JJJJJJeeeeennnnnnkkkkkkkkinnnnnnnnnnnnnnssssssssss ftw
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by thorsdog
Re: 7/8 Tunes
Tag, copy the ABCs and paste them at this link http://www.concertina.net/tunes_convert.html thenit will automatically convert the ABCs into standard notation.
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: 7/8 Tunes
Many thanks to all who have contacted me regarding reading/converting ABC format.
What a great site this is!
TAG
# Posted on February 26th 2006 by tag
Re: 7/8 Tunes
In some of the Balkan countries, like Bulgaria, Greece, Macedonia, or Turkey, 7/8 and other "odd" rhythms are common in folk music, and as Pied Piper describes they are usually made up of groups of 2 or 3 eighth notes. So a 7/8 time is usually 3-2-2 or 2-2-3. The long (3) count in the measure is accented and tunes are classified partly by where the 3 occurs within the measure. Slow "lesnoto" dances are often done in 3-2-2, and faster "rachenitsa" dances are in 2-2-3. The long, accented 3rd beat gives these tunes a wonderful driving quality. Sometimes the 2s are combined into a longer beat, as in 4-3. Often these tunes are also songs, and of course not every possible eighth note is sung, but there will be an instrumental break in which the individual eighth notes tend to be articulated as an instrumental melody, and within this syncopations are often done to contrast with the rhythm of the song proper.
If you're playing a rhythm instrument you can do this as three quarter notes with an extra eighth note, as in "dum-da, dum, dum" or "dum, dum, dum-die" (not to be confused with dumb, dumb, and dumber). I've played or accompanied these tunes on guitar and fiddle but have never played bodhran. If a bodhran player wants to hit every beat I guess you would be combining reel and jig patterns within a single measure, probably accenting the first eighth note of each group, and especially in the longer group: ONE-two-three, One-two, One-two.
Maybe when 7/8 tunes are done with an Irish accent they would turn out quite different from all this. I can recall hearing Kevin Burke play a Romanian tune I know as Hora ca la caval (a 4/4 type of tune), and it sounded great, but he had smoothed out the hesitations or slightly dotted rhythms that are part of the Romanian tune (as played by Gheorghe Zamfir and others).
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by danceall
Re: 7/8 Tunes
thorsdog = computer nerd [wink]
Anyone who invokes LeeRoy in the middle of a serious discussion is afk. At least you've got chicken....
Mark
www.markstonemusic.com
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by Mark Stone
Re: 7/8 Tunes
If we want to know what our former Quirl (currently Spoon) looks like then have a look at
http://www1-c703.uibk.ac.at/mathematik/project/galleries/presentation/Galleries/Quirl.html
There is even a mathematical formula defining him:
(y^2-xz)(yz-x^3)(z^2-x^2y)=0
All very appropriate for this esoteric 7/8 etc stuff, I must say.
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by lazyhound