Mark Stone www.markstonemusic.com is conducting a three-hour workshop in Costa Mesa, CA on 8 April at Noon. Reservations are a must as space is limited. For information and
reservations contact John Prange at 949-476-2030 or drprange@cox.net.
This is an excellent opportunity to not only learn from a great teacher but meet and connect with other bodhrán players in the Southern California area. You will also have the opportunity to play a number of excellent drums by makers like Metloef (Rob Forkner), Seamus O’Kane, Albert Alfonse, Darius Bartlett, Kevin O’Connell, Steve Foreman and the like.
I am hoping that this can become an annual event or at least more events like this can be organized here in Southern California. That we can bring in great bodhrán teachers and perhaps other great musicians.
So if you have any interest in bodhrán and live or are visiting here in Southern California please join Mark for a great afternoon. BTW there is no profit motive involved.
This sounds like a fun event, but IMO, and it is just MY opinion, Mark Stone's bodhran playing represents everything most instrumentalists hate about bodhran players. Specifically, he plays all the time, loudly, and consistently goes up and down the scale on his drum which draws attention from the melody rather than embellishing it.
If you are experienced, you can draw your own conclusions. If not, be careful about imitating his style. I know several player who have done that, and if you don't fancy constant up-and-down-the scale playing, it can be really, really annoying. So be warned.
Excuse me, gentlemen...But do I know you? None of that which have describes MY playing. There must be another Mark Stone out there. Check out my website and then confirm. Where have you seen me play?
Long time lurker, first time writer - felt I had to speak up on this point.
As much as I'm loath to take specific issue with any particular contributer's opinion, I felt compelled at this point. Mark Stone virtually exemplifies tasteful bodhran playing. While many less considerate bodhran players of varying skill levels may be accused of playing "all over the place" or "all over the drum" with wanton abandon and inconsideration of rhythm, volume, or musiciality, Mark Stone may not be found amongst their number. He is rather both assertive and controlled, measured but thoughtfully and considerately bold. His use of ornamentation on the bodhran in particular is masterful; to invoke a paradox particularly suited to the bodhran, his playing is both restrained and energetic, present but reticently rhythmic. If you don't believe me on this point, consult the litany of renowned players who have specifically requested his presence on stage and on recordings: John Williams, James Keane, Liz Carroll, Jerry Holland, John Doyle, Paul McGrattan, and James Kelly just to name a few. Personally, I can't readily think of many bodhran players who I would more readily have at any session or performance, up here in Boston, or anywhere else.
Again, this is not to take specific issue with any particular viewpoint. We're all entitled to our stylistic opinions and preferences when it comes to this wonderfully diverse musical idiom. But I certainly wanted to speak up in support of a man whose musicality and creativity on an oft-maligned insturment I very much appreciate and value. I would encourage anyone out in SoCal to attend his worjshop.
Agree 100% with James' comments. Mark Stone's playing is the very definition of tasteful, well done bodhran playing that exists in the music. His backing of tunes comes from the viewpoint of piano chordal structuring for tune accompanyment, and his bodhran playing reflects that. He is one of the few people I know (and there are a very very scarce few in the bodhran playing world I can say the following about) who not only know the tunes that they are playing, but request tune set lists with key changes to be sure when doing gigs.
I agree with James also regarding your own opinions. You can hate the bodhran all you want, etc. This is what I would attribute Michael Gill's comments to, and he is totally free to have his opinion in regards to the instruments he prefers to or not to hear. However if you are going to make comments that refer to someones playing- like "constantly goes up and down the scale, ...drawing attention away from the melody" you need to be careful, because in this case they are quite simply contrary to fact. Mark is a well-known and oft-requested accompanyist by some of the best players that there are in the music. He knows what he is doing, and is an exceptional player. His understanding of tune accompanyment on "the drum" is even such that I'd have no trouble suggesting that even your guitar and bouzouki players attend Mark's workshop. You will learn a great deal.
I must wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Hamilton. As a relative newcomer to the bodhran and to this site, I am well aware of how inconsiderate bodhran players can be (which can really apply to anyone on any instrument, don't you think?), as well as how complementary they can be, and how unfairly maligned they often are.
I had the pleasure of taking a bodhran workshop with Mark this past summer at the Swannanoa Gathering. One can learn just so much on one's own from CDs and videos and such, but having someone such as Mark gently and patiently show one how NOT to abuse the instrument, stressing the basics and the use of restraint, and highlighting the power of simplicity--referencing such pieces as Altan's "The Road to Durham" to underscore the point--can send one's learning curve soaring upward. Playing "all over the place" and "all over the drum" were absolutely nowhere in the curriculum--indeed, he emphasized the avoidance of such "showmanship" and reiterated the rules of bodhran etiquette--nor in any of the performances in which Mark participated. I had the added delight of dancing Irish ceilidh dances and contras and listening to music all week long where Mark accompanied Liz Carroll, John Doyle, Oisín Mac Diarmada, James Kelly, James Keane, and others, at the dances as well as in the jams scattered about the campus. The music and the players were spellbinding--simply amazing musicians playing pure, traditional music for the pure joy of it--no "stars," no divas--and no "playing all over the place"--and absolutely nothing that was "really, really annoying."
If you have an opportunity to attend the workshop in California, go. If you are a beginner, he will break it down for you so that you don't learn bad habits. In addition to playing along with CDs and participating in sessions, his CD, "The Bodhran," has been, for me, one of the most helpful aids in learning and practicing the sticking patterns outside his workshop. If you are experienced, he will show you the subtleties of the instrument. What anyone decides to do with the information he offers in his workshops is ultimately up to the individual, as is the case in any teaching/learning experience.
On top of everything else, he is one heck of a nice guy, ready, willing, and able to offer, in a most positive manner, suggestions and advice to improve one's playing--none of which involves pen knives, combustible fluids, and the like.
I have to agree with Ailin's aesthetic judgement of Mr. Stone's bodhran playing. I've seen him, and thought he was too loud and too busy.
Name dropping aside, so what? These are touring professionals who need to make their music appeal to people who don't play irish traditional music on a melody instrument, whose ears are not attuned by countless hours of listening to ITM. It is not an aesthetic endorsement as much as it is an economic one. There are other, subtler styles of bodhran playing that make up for the lack of showbiz by adding to the collective sound, instead of trying to dominate it.
As I melody player, I really dislike having to tune out a loud drum while playing in order to be able to focus on the tune at hand. Ailin and Michael are expressing valid and widely held opinions among traditional melody players. If you don't like it, well, you can always choose a different genre of music to practice.
WHERE did you hear me play and with whom? I've NEVER been accused of being a busy player and playing loud is against my nature. There HAS to be some sort of confusion here between myself and someone else. I've never tried to "dominate the collective sound". Name dropping? Give me a break. "Showbiz?"
Please answer my question....WHERE did you see me AND with WHOM?
Nice to hear all those good things about Mark. Rob, James and Gaelic Writer I share your opinion. From my contact with Mark I believe he is a warm, sensitive and honest individual and this is one of the main reasons that I lent my energy to this project.
I wonder if Ailin has mixed Mark up with someone else. With this possibility in mind I’d like to re-invite Ailin to the workshop. Ailin I’d be happy to talk to you about this workshop and encourage you to call or write me at the number or e-mail in the original message. Short of you attending the workshop perhaps we could get together on some occasion as I’m always interested in meeting other bodhrán players to share any knowledge. As I said I’d like to see more classes in the future. Ailin, perhaps you would be interested in teaching (sharing) your style at some future time.
I’d also would extend the same invitation to Father Jack Hackett.
Thanks for all of the support. You've got to understand my confusion as to the source of these comments. Ailin, et al....I will gladly offer you free admission to the workshop and the first pint's on me if you decide to go. I'm truly confounded as to the source of these comments. None of them apply to my personality or style of playing. There has to be some sort of mix-up. I'd really like to know the basis of these comments. I've spent precious few visits to the west coast and have never been to Scotland, so I'm confused as to the root of your opinion.
"Name dropping aside, so what? These are touring professionals who need to make their music appeal to people who don't play irish traditional music on a melody instrument, whose ears are not attuned by countless hours of listening to ITM. It is not an aesthetic endorsement as much as it is an economic one. "
Proof that you don't get it. I truly hope that you're not a Catholic priest. I'll pray for you if you are....What a cynical, un-Christian thing to say.
Hey Folks
I have heard Mark and I am sure you confuse him with someone else. His playing is tasty, never disturbing ans always supportive to the tunes. I'd say he is not using the whole drum going up and down a lot, but keeps it steady. James Keane, Pual McGrattan is showbiz ?? You guys don't know a lot about the business, do you ?
Bye
Rolf
Well I have to say that it seems to me the line of friendly chiding has been crossed. This to me is very unfortunate especially in a community of creative people that carry on a musical tradition that has itself faced this form of ugly prejudice historically. Although I have never met Mark personally I have heard his playing on a number of different CD’s included amongst them his own bodhrán instructional CD. I highly recommend his instructional CD to anyone wishing to learn this most noble instrument.
All I can say to the naysayers is that the bodhrán is a part of the tradition. Like it or not it is here to stay. To my way of thinking the tradition, and all its players, are extremely fortunate to have the likes of Mark Stone offering his talent, time, and energy to the goal of developing quality players to carry on.
To those who wish to learn to play the bodhrán or those who wish to hone their skills and reach for new levels of quality play you are well served to attend any workshop given by Mark.
I don't know you Mark, and have never heard you play, so I'm ill equiped to take sides on this one. However, I would like to take a straw poll on how many of you supporters play the bodhran?
What are your views on this idea - a town full of hundreds & hundreds of Bodhran players - can it work?
Surely there are a limit to the number of Bodhrans which can get involved in any one session, aren't there?
Do you not think that the thought of a small town full of hundreds & hundreds & hundreds of Bodhran players might just perhaps put off some of the other musicians, you guys will need to make up the sessions?
I guess what I'm thinking is, a Pipers festival can work with only Pipers there, so can a Fiddlers festival or a Harp festival - but a Bodhran festival?
MG, as you know I never take sides, I just sit on the fence with my big wooden spoon!
But to answer your question, I do play the Bodhran, but not in sessions.
It was my 2nd instrument, after the Jews Harp, & over the years, I must confess, I have taught hundreds of kids the rudiments of Bodhran playing.
It believe it does have a place in ITM & like everyone else here, I have my own likes & dislikes when it comes to the way they are played in sessions.
In sessions I like the Bodhran to be tucked in BEHIND the music, along with the other, what I think of as, accompanying instruments, e.g. Guitar, Bouzouki, etc.
However, to qualify that, I also like the other melody instruments to blend in too, & so dislike those flash harrys who try & shove their over-inflated musical egos up the nose of all around them by playing louder than all around them, in an attempt to dominate!
Moderation is perhaps the key word here, so ITM players should not be too loud, their style should not be over-ornamented, there should not be too many of any one instrument in any one session etc etc
But, like I say, I'm sitting on the fence on this one.........................
Mr. Gill, You don't know me or my playing, yet you feel compelled to criticise? As for the answer to your question, with the exception of Jamie Hamilton, everyone else who's lent their support is a bodhran player, some of them the finest you'll ever hear or meet, including Rolf Wagels and Rob Forkner. Incidently, Rob is considered among the top bodhran makers in the world at the moment. Rolf works with another renowned maker and has his own special edition drum named for him.
Once again. Ptarmigan works to hijack the thread....
This 'so-called' thread you talk about started as an 'advert', which attracted some plain speaking, which in turn upset a few thin skinned percussionists folks who proceeded to patronise the poster.
I was simply trying to diffuse the situation & help to create an actual thread from the above mess, before it developed into a full scale slagging match!
I'm sure John Prange is absolutely delighted with all this extra publicity!
It's hardly what you would call a balanced discussion, given that, as MG implied, most or all of those who contributed are in fact Bodhran players.
Incidentally, hijacking is surely a legitimate passtime for anyone who visits these discussion boards.
A strong, interesting, well balanced thread will always be well able to stand a bit of tweeking & still stay the course & that is my opinion, which is what these yolks are all about.
It would have been nice to hear from non bodhran players on the above & I was endeavoring to draw them in, but just as, explaining a joke spoils the punch-line .......................................
Mark, I checked out your website in the hope of hearing an example of your playing but I couldn't find anything. Put a few mp3's on the site then we can all listen and arrive at an informed conclusion.
Yes Mark, I do not know your playing. However, where did I criticise? My first post merely reiterated the fact that fancy constant up-and-down-the scale playing can be really, really annoying. And since all your apologists insist you don't do this, how can you complain about that? And pointing out that it's difficult to get people to defend the thing unless they play it, is hardly criticism either, mere fact.
That said, and I reiterate from the 7/8 thread, the argument against bodhrans is simple. They are thwacked by two types of people. musicians and non musicians. It's obvious why you should keep non musisians away from a session. But if you are a musician, for the life of me why not play the bloody tunes instead?
“I was simply trying to diffuse the situation & help to create an actual thread “
Your efforts noted and appreciated as always.
“This 'so-called' thread you talk about started as an 'advert', which attracted some plain speaking, which in turn upset a few thin skinned percussionists folks who proceeded to patronise the poster.”
I agree this was simply an advert, or in reality an attempt to put forth information as I am fairly certain John has no intentions of making any profit from the venture. However the “plain speaking” you refer to is with-out merit and entirely inaccurate. I quote; “…Mark Stone's bodhran playing represents everything most instrumentalists hate about bodhran players.” Mark’s recording credits and playing experience dispel this. As to my being “thin skinned” I can assure you that after two divorces and my choices as to the instruments I play my skin is anything but thin. As to my being “patronizing” I would disagree. I simply wanted to set the record straight.
“It would have been nice to hear from non bodhran players on the above & I was endeavoring to draw them in,…”
As stated above I think one need only look to Mark’s experience to know how non-bodhrán players weigh in on the subject.
Peace,
Ed
P.S. Michael for the same reason there is chocolate and vanilla ice cream.
OK Ed, I must admit, Ailin's comments were a 'trifle clumsy' & 'heavy handed', but he was, after all, describing a style of Bodhran playing which he obviously does not appreciate & he did qualify them, by stating they were only his opinion.
He must surely recognise that he can only speak for himself & I think that was his mistake, in writing in a manner that gave the impression that he was speaking for everyone else here.
He clearly has strong opinions about Bodhran playing but he can't possibly know what the rest of us think about Mark Stone's playing, given that many of us haven't actually heard Mark play - or hadn't until he posted those clips.
However, I'm sure Ailin will appreciate that neither is he Dog's gift to ITM & that his playing will no doubt upset or perhaps annoy someone else, sometime.
I'm sure he would not be very keen to come onto session.org & find folks were sitting around here slagging off his best efforts at ITM.
So I would be surprised if he wasn't a little more tactful, the next time he gives 'his' opinion here.
I'm sure lessons have been learned here today & I'm also pretty sure young Mark, being a Bodhran player, will be thick skinned () enough to be able to take all this in his stride!
As they say up here in Ulster Mark - 'Slap it up them'!
I would like to say that Mark is not only an extremely tasteful player, but one of the nicer folks I have had the pleasure of meeting. Though it has been some years since we crossed paths, Mark was extremely supportive of my bodhran habits and a true gentleman. It is an embarrassment that this discussion (emphasis on the first syllable)(the second syllable is that to which I am inclined in response) is happening.
Have some respect.
Just to throw a slightly different slight on some preceding comments/aspersions on Mark's playing... I, for one, am a flute player - as well as, note, a melody player speaking up in full support of and out of respect for one of the finest and most accomplished traditional percussionists I've encountered.
I intend no disrespect for the views of those who have a slightly more pejorative view of the bodhran and of those individuals who play them (or attempt to). In fact, I'll be the first to admit that nothing kills a good session, to say nothing of a good recording, faster than bad bodhran playing (or, shall we say, non-musical - a rather woolly term...). In the wrong hands, a bodhran can be possibly the most intrusive and disruptive instrument imaginable, the death-knell of good music. I would readily contend, however, that this may be said of *any* percussion instrument, in any idiom. It is not a unique characteristic of the bodhran. Imagine, for example, a pipe-and-drum corps with incompetent snare drummers, or Indian ragas with sloppy tabla.
And I'll readily repeat that Mark is Not such an incompetent musician. Quite the opposite, really. As for economic factors overriding strictly aesthetic concerns when it comes to the performative activity of such individuals as Paul McGrattan, James Kelly, etc. - I can only guess that certain individuals involved in this discussion may have confused the performance repertoires of those consummate and devoted traditional musicians with that of a certain greasy-chested, tights-clad dancer of some ambivalent repute.
But, stories of great bodhran players just instill a deep sense of saddness within me. A deep sense of what might have been. What we could be hearing had that genuinly talented person put in that little bit more effort and learned to play an instrument instead of just banging away. What a waste
Again, Mr. Gill. Read my website. I am a classically trained musician, received by bachelor's degree on a music scholarship to a respected college of music, and play piano for the choir at my church.
" A little more effort" on your part should be spent on manners and decorum.
Mark
www.markstonemusic.com
www.poormansfortune.com (w/ sound clips)
www.cdbaby.com/markstone (w/ sound clips)
By an extension of that logic, can we go so far as to say that the respective idioms of Buddy Rich, Keith Moon, Roy Haynes, Lars Ulrich (my hats off to anyone who can do drum roll with foot pedals), Zakir Hussain, and John-Joe Kelly would all be better off if these musicians (and I use the term pointedly here) had all opted to play melody instruments rather than percussion? For all intents and purposes, the bodhran appears to be a percussion instrument like any other, eg. the trap-kit, tabla, snare, djembe, rik, etc., and as such can be used both to enrich and to detract from its native idiom. To suggest that all bodhran players, by occluding their own performance of the melody via their choice of instrument, are necessarily either detracting from the tradition or in some way making an inferior contribution seems like highly reductive reasoning. Moreover, we need look no further than a tyro uilleann piper or whistle player for the melodic counterpoint to bad (again, non-musical?) bodhran playing... let's not lose sight of the fact that making a hash of the music is a multi-directional street.
“If you must play the bodhrán, play it this way!”
-Billy McComiskey introducing Mark Stone in Los Angeles
I think this may sum you up, in a way. And I'm not trying to be patronizing here, it's because I "don't get it". I just don't get why a musician would want to bang a simple frame drum.
I've been listening to some of your sound clips and you can play alright, there's no doubt about that. But this makes the "why" all the more intangible. So I suppose that all anyone can say really is that if you "must" play it, play it like that.
And, J Hamilton. You are not extending logic, because my complaint of the simple frame drum hit with the double ended stick is specific to Irish diddley music in sessions. Yes it is an entertaining spectacle at a concert, and can be a lovely extra timbre in a well crafted studio recording. But what the bodhran does in diddley music is a completely different kettle of fish from all those you mentioned above. All the bodhran does is hit a beat at the same time there is a note in the melody. The very definition of a good bodhran player is to be able to follow the tune as closely as possible. Which leaves the very simple extrapolation of, what's the point?
Michael - we may have to come to a gentlemanly agreement to disagree on this point, which I am perfectly happy to do. As I said earlier, we are all absolutely entitled to our opinions and preferences when it comes to this music, and I won't ever go so far as to argue that one set of those is any better than another. By all means, I respect your dislike for the bodhran. I can also clearly see from where it may easily have arisen.
However, your comments do open a potentially very constructive line of inquiry. I don't mean this to antagonize, but merely to promote just such constructive debate on the subject - isn't "hitting a beat at the same time there is a note in the melody" something approaching a reductio ad absurdum not just of the bodhran, but of all percussion? In the most reductively basic view of percussion, isn't that the point? To provide a plosive accentuation of the melody? "The point" of percussion, in my opinion, might be found in the creative extention and extrapolation of that simple priniciple. The proffer a example, consider the difference between the percussive, musical styles of Ringo McDonagh and John-Joe Kelly - both respected, even venerated members of the IrTrad community. Can we reduce their playing to the description above? Might that not be inviting at least some censure for reductive reasoning?
Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight or be belligerent - I think this could be a very constructive, informative point to pursue, for all parties, and I'd love to here with other folks have to say about it, especially those who disagree entirely. Knowledge is sired in the bedroom of dissent....
Father Jack Hackett--Excuse me, but do you know me? Is it your assumption/insinuation here that all of those of us who attended the Gathering and/or Mark's workshop "don't play Irish traditional music on a melody instrument" or have "ears that are not attuned by countless hours of listening to ITM"? Fancy that. To think that I sought out a place where I could learn from those gifted individuals willing to share their knowledge so that I might learn how to play correctly and not butcher the music and the instruments. To think that I actually looked for a place where I could be immersed in the music that I have listened to for over 25 years--countless hours by my reckoning--for an entire week, essentially 24 hours a day. How to fathom agreeing to pay tuition for their expertise? I mean, if I wanted to take lessons from anyone on this site who teaches and plays professionally full-time, would I not have to pay him/her, or would he/she do it out of the goodness of his/her heart and for the love of the music? Are you all independently wealthy? And who were all those people in the bodhran workshop who also played fiddle, flute, whistle, harp, piano, concertina, and pipes--and sang? And how dare that Irish flute player who plays in a trad band north of here ask me to play bodhran with him in a small session. As for the comment, "It is not an aesthetic endorsement as much as it is an economic one," well, I'm wondering how many of these folks who taught and played all week retired after that week because sales of their CDs soared world-wide or were suddenly able to charge exhorbitant fees for a performance. The music was sublime, whether played for the dances or in the small sessions that sprouted all over the campus, bringing together some of the world's finest musicians in traditional music, some who had never played together before. No, Father Jack Hackett, you truly don't get it.
Mr. Gill, you're repeating yourself. Clearly, from your many posts in this and other threads, we understand your position on the bodhran. Clearly. And again, I maintain that ANY instrument in the hands of a poor/bad/mis-taught/got-no-clue player is painful to listen to and play along with and can ruin a session. That said, I reckon that the next time I'm in a session with a fiddle player who can't keep a steady tempo or screeches out a few notes or showboats, I'm guessing I'd be justified in gettin' a rope and stringin' 'em up for rustlin' the music. But there's no joy to be found in that for me. I'd rather we just keep practicing and taking pleasure in the music, as I find a closed mind truly a waste.
I'm glad we understand each other to the extent that we know we are not trying to pick a fight or be belligerent. So on with the discussion:
Lets look at percussion in other musics.
Tabla? There is such an enormous amount of complex sub divisions of beats.
Jazz - trad, modern, free form, be-bob? Again, subtle subdivisions. Also many drums of widely differing characteristics.
What these two examples have in common is their drummers' ability to access areas of the music that is otherwise open. A bodhran player does not have this space, because diddley music is very dense. The point is, I can think of no greater example of a musical art form than diddley, where all the music is in the melody.
Rock? Does what it says on the tin. It's repetitive but it's the noise that counts. You could say this of diddley music too, and many do. But we know that the best of it is not repetitive at all and my view is that to re-enforce what repetition there is with a drum, is usually worse than pointless. The great skill of a great melody player is to disguise the repetition with variation/ornamant/decoration/dynamics etc
So is Bodhran playing detracting from the tradition in some way? Well seeings as its a traditional thing, it can't be. But does it detract from the music? At it's very very best, I'll submit that it may well be capable of making an inferior contribution.
(And there is an "across the pond" cultural blindspot at work here also. You need to be aquanted with the TV character of Father Jack to understand the poster's hijacking of his monogramme)
Nope, while I'm not familiar with the TV character to which you refer--don't watch much TV regardless--I was simply responding to the moniker Father Jack provided.
“The great skill of a great melody player is to disguise the repetition with variation/ornamant/decoration/dynamics etc”
Funny thing about prospective is that I would use these same words to describe the skills of a great bodhrán player.
Michael,
My debating academics with you would be senseless on my part as I am a simple person of limited academic skill. I would liken my coming to such a debate with you to my coming prepared for fencing and you jousting.
That said I would submit that based on the increased frequency with which the bodhrán has been included on recordings of the music and quite frankly my personal observations of a reduction in the opining of those that wish it to be excluded (present company excluded of course), skilled players have indeed found adequate space in the tune and more people are recognizing this as time continues. Now in the interest of fair play I personally believe that life is 99.9% mystery and .01% science. I fully expect that you and I will never recognize each other’s reasoning.
Michael - extremely valid and cogent points vis a vis the different percussion idioms I brought up. By no means do I want to suggest that the percussive abilities of the bodhran can easily equal the texture available to the tabla or the jazz drum kit. The simple fact of the number of drum heads available on the different instruments largely proscribes that. I would, however, still persist in suggesting that some pan-idiomatic respect for percussion instruments is warranted.
Also an excellent point regarding the relative density of "Diddly" music (aren't we kind of reinforcing a stigma here ;>). And I agree on the implied point that, in this music, the melody is paramount - accompaniment of any kind, no matter who skillful or subtle, is by definition superfluous and marginal to some degree. Not that I mean to say that John Doyle and Michael Holmes and Yves le Coant need to pack it in 'cause we don't need them anymore... I suppose I would simply argue that, in my opinion, there is more space in the musical topography of IrTrad music that is accessible to the bodhran. I certainly wouldn't argue that it's "the noise that counts", simply because one need only go as far as Donnacha Gough (sp?), Junior Davey or - I'll venture so far to say - Mark Stone for examples of the splendid range and variability of "noise" that can be produced even by an instrument as simple in appearance as the bodhran. Again, though, this is simply my opinion.
I would also argue, though, that there is more of a widening of the bodhran's capability based on its structure than one might immediately think. Consider the *very* different sound and dynamic range inherent in, say a Charlie Byrne 18X4" bodhran as opposed to a Metloef 12X6" bodhran with a weighted kangaroo skin head. These structural variations don't make the bodhran a tabla or one of Neil Peart's setups (God, how could I forget, Mark?) - but they do accord it far greater tonal and rhythmic flexibility than it was once given credit for.
Underlying all of these comments is also the suggestion that, even if you presently don't care at all for the bodhran, you might want to give it just a little bit more time. I have had what I consider to be the good fortune of encountering and interacting with something of an embarassment of riches in terms of fabulous bodhran players and makers - and believe me, hope is on the horizon. Rob Forkner (of Metloef Irish Drums) is a very good friend of mine; his drums are truly remarkable creations, and condusive to fabulously varied tones. In the right hands, I'd say they offer some hope as to the recuperation of the bodhran's bad name. I've also had the opportunity to play with others such as Albert Alphonso, Mark Stone, Steve Forman, Eamonn Murray, and others - and all is not lost in the bodhran world!
And again, these are only my opinions - "a chacun sa verite". Enjoying the discussion!
Hi, gang. Some pretty strong opinions, much more strongly stated than mine. However, since the man himself has seen fit to respond, let me at least answer his questions. I heard Mark play some years back at the CTMS Summer Solstice Festival. He played on stage, jammed , and taught. Up until that time, I had never heard anyone play the way Mark does (perhaps he's changed since then - I don't know). Mark may be gratified to know that a number of people who took his workshop have emulated his style, and that is what prompted my post. Please remember that I did state that experienced players could come to their own conclusions about what they like or don't like, but as a bodhran and flute player, I felt moved to encourage beginners to be wary about adopting Mark's style. I can't think of a nicer way to put it than the way I did, so if anyone is offended, I can't help you. I didn't say Mark's playing is bad, which is only a matter of my aesthetic judgment. What I said is that his style of playing is why many instrumentalists don't like about bodhran players which is more of an observation than a value judgment. Obviously, many disagree with me, and that's fine.
I have indeed refined my playing and simplified it. I haven't been to CTMS in at least 10 years, so of course things have changed. You based your post and tried to derail a workshop based on one weekend many years ago?
Go back and reread your original post. "Plays all the time, loudly...draws attention from the melody rather than embellishing it"....Sounds like a value judgement to me.
No, Mark, it is not a value judgment. One may disagree with my assessment, but it is not a value judgment. A value judgment assigns value, meaning good or bad. What I stated is an assessment. That you played constantly, in the forefront, and up-and-down the scale is a simple statement of fact as I see it. I solicited others' opinions at the time to see if my reaction was off base, and found that many agreed.
I have no desire to "derail" the event, which is why I started my post by saying it sounds like a fun event. I meant that. Such a gathering will result in good times with or without a particular particpant or teacher. Never did I encourage anyone not to attend. I think it would be arrogant to do so, and I'd be surprised if anyone made a decision about the event based on my opinion. However, there are a lot more bodhran players around now that there were when I started. Far too many are either bad technicians or good technicians that don't employ much taste, variation, or reserve. I wanted to make a point about that, and oops, it involved me getting into comments about your abilities. I knew there would be disagreement, but I felt the discussion was worth having.
A comment about Michael Gill: Michael likes to bash bodhran players, and although I often disagree with him (being a bodhran player myself), I agree with one point he continually comes back to: I don't believe you can compare a great bodhran player with a great instrumentalist.. The level of skill it takes to be a very fine bodhran player, if you have any affinity for rhythm and percussion, is not great. You can become quite a fine player in very short order. I really don't understand why someone would make bodhran their only instrument.
Where you can fairly take me to task is that I heard you a long time ago, and I should have at least stated that, although your style seemed pretty entrenched, and I guess I made the assumption that you were probably playing the same way today. If I am wrong, please disregard this notice and be assured that your account will be restored within 24 hours.
This thread has certainly grown since I last looked in on it!
I've listened to Mark's clips of his playing and he's good. I wouldn't mind having him at any session I was in.
Michael Gill, you've been going on a lot about why a musician should want to play a bodhran. Well Mark has given us examples of his playing; how about you? Tell us where we can find some clips of your playing and we can make some informed comparisons and comments.
“Is it really Ailin's fault for not keeping abreast of your continual professional development? ”
Absolutely not, but his pontificating could have been initially qualified, as it has since been, and the ensuing discourse’s negativity avoided.
“THWACK...........”
That may very well be the “THWACK………” heard around the world I suspect. In my opinion it matters not how Michael plays the music as his opinions should be allowed to stand on their own merits.
This is a public forum. This is where the man on the street/in the session can come and say what he thinks. Ailin is informative in his bio about his background, so we can assess for ourselves whether we value the opinion of a self confessed 'Renny' (Though I don't see myself why this should automatically place him further down the food chain, any more than the fact that M.Gill is a 'viola player from Scotland') - which is more than we can with some of the non-existant/non-informative bios of some of the contributors above. This open access to all is both the strength and weakness of internet forums. You may not know that the authoritative sounding advice on bowing technique or whatever has only got two years fiddling experience behind him, but at least ordinary people can say what they think which gives people a rounder view than if all we had to go on were professional websites. - Ailin should IMHO resist being dragged into a private debate where he is 'put right'. He's expressed a valid opinion, which I've read, and I've listened to the professionally recorded MP3s on Marks site, and I must say I disagree with his assessment of Mark's style of playing, though I think there is an underlying argument that maybe a 'professional' style of drumming which sounds great in the context of a band arrangement might not be the best style for the majority of sessions - but of course, anyone who can play that well can probably play in a style to suit any occasion.
I agree with all you say Mark, except for perhaps - "which is more than we can with some of the non-existant/non-informative bios of some of the contributors above."
I don't really feel that we should be under any obligation to declare who we are here, or give out private details if we don't wish, or details of our playing history or ability.
Let's face it, anyone could write any old bo**ocks in a bio here too, just to give themselves a bit of street cred.
I prefer it when there is a bit of a story & a photo to put to the name at the end of a thread, but it's not necessary because in time, if a person is contributing regularly, we get a fair measure of where they are coming from & how much they know, or don't know, about ITM.
'anyone could write any old bo**ocks in a bio here too, just to give themselves a bit of street cred'
True enough. Enough bo**ocks is written on this site already (some of it by yours truly)
As an absolutely brilliant bodhran player, who also dabbles with other instruments, I just posted this to make poor old M.Gill feel an incredible sadness. Just think, I could have been a wonderful piper, or flautist or fiddler. What a waste (Ian Dury)
I just finished a post about why I thing the bodhran is so maligned, and then I see this thread. Even though I'm glad to see some new screen names contributing so passionately here (some who I know personally) I'm disappointed that this discussion judging Mark Stone had to happen at all. I think Ailin's post was a bit irresponsible and uncalled for. Everyone has his or her personal opinions, but there was no need to put down Mark's bodhran playing on a thread announcing an event he was doing.
As far as personal opinions go -- everyone has them. Sometimes I'm amazed at how one man's musical trash is another man's musical inspiration. I remember a conversation with one of our new contributors here where he thought a recording from one of the major contributors to ITM belonged in the trash bin. I also remember being shocked to hear that a good friend of mine skipped the songs on a CDs that featured one of my favorite singers. He said they were "rubbish."
My point is that we all have our personal opinions based on our personal tastes, but unless the discussion calls for it, we should just keep it to ourselves. In my opinion -- Ailin crossed that line.
Just stumbled across this discussion, and have to put my two cents in. I took Mark's bodhran class at Swannanoa last year, and I'll second everything gaelic writer said about Mark and the class; it was one of the more informative and useful classes I've had at Swannanoa over the years I've gone.
Mark's teaching stresses respect for the tradiition and learning how to fit into it. He got James Kelly to come to a class to talk about his experiences growing up and learning to play, so that we'd get a better feel for where the music comes from and the culture that gave rise to it. He's the antithesis of the things people say they don't like about bodhran players, in addiition to being a good teacher.
Go take the workshop if you're in the area. Mark's a class act and you'll learn a lot about the bodhran and about ITM. You'll certainly learn more from going to one of his workshops than you will from reading the writings of most of the self-appointed critics who've "contributed" to this thread.
Okay, I'm going to break my silence and own rule....
After long thought, I've deduced who "Ailin" is. For what it's worth, he won't respond to my emails or offers to talk civily.(Nut it up and give me a call).
"Ailin" is a renny who was jealous that I was teaching at the CTMS Summer Solstict Festival and he wasn't. He didn't like the fact that I openly criticized rennies (strike one) who played with a hammer dulcimer player at the ren fair (strike two) and justifed his constant moving of the right hand to keep up with Irish music being played two fast (strike three...YOU'RE OUT!).
He didn't like that I taught against the very things he did and so he's criticizing my playing in his post and derailing (I don't care what you say. Beg to differ? Grow and set and CALL me)my workshop on the very things I tried to teach him NOT to do.
BTW, let's keep some perspective here...I was on the STAGE playing with the aforementioned and he was in the AUDIENCE. Enough said.
I have nto really been following this thread carefully, but I get the jist of it.
With that being said I bring a direct quotation of Ailin's bio:
"Ailin
I worked the original California Renaissance Pleasure Faire for 17 years, and have been playing ITM for 20 years. My instruments are wooden flute (I have an 19th century 8-key, and two Casey Burns flutes), tin whistle, bodhran, and bones.
Been to Ireland and Scotland to play with the locals. I do gigs more than sessions these days, but not a lot - maybe three or four times a year. On St. Patrick's I may do as many as three gigs in one day.
After all these years, my collection of tunes is still modest, mostly because I'm picky about what I learn. I like tunes that stand out, or I won't go to the trouble to memorize them. A friend of mine refers to the bodhran as the instrument for the repertoire-challenged. There's more than a little truth to that."
Since i have met one person in this thread in real life I have choosen to agree with them, that would be Ed aka ejsant. He is a *good* bodhran player, and knows that 3 bodhrans are more than enough for one session and then he goes to guitar. So if Ed learned from Mark's instructional CD, Mark cannot be a bad player.
Michael Gill, some people just want to bang on stuff (obviously there are other things they are not banging, oh come on you were thinking it), let that be their decision.
Thank you for your kind words. If my whiskey soaked memory is correct I only received Mark’s instructional CD last year sometime. That said, as with the other great bodhrán players I’ve either met or partook of an instructional by way of CD or other media, I took away some great tuition from Mark’s CD. I am of the mind that one can learn from everyone they encounter along their path regardless of their “station” or abilities. Lest there be any confusion, it was easy for me to garner improvement in my playing from Mark’s CD as he is a significantly more skilled player than I.
As to my knowing that three bodhráns are too many for a session let me just say that there are times in my opinion when three may not be too many and times when one is decidedly too many. It’s a matter of what adds to the tune and/or the moment. Same can be said of the guitar, any other backing, or for that matter another melody instrument joining in. There are times when just the lone pipes, fiddle, flute, whistle, box, or whatever conveys the soul of the tune, times when the impassioned vision of the composer and the compassion of the player meet. These are magical times that in my mind are to be allowed unimpeded as only then can one really begin to understand the potential of this great music.
As I face the chronic deterioration of my motor functions, which currently grossly effects my balance, and may very well take my mobility some of the most cherished memories of the music I have had the great fortune to amass are when a lone melody player offers a jig or perhaps a hornpipe that allows me to close my eyes and envision myself dancing along the top of a stone wall along a country lane in the middle of rolling green meadows awash with the brilliant colors of wild flowers or a reel that allows the vision of my racing down a river in a currach weaving and bobbing with the current. This to me is the magic of this music. A magic I pray I always have the good fortune to witness.
Ed, very sorry to hear that you are not well. I pray that, somehow, this deterioration is halted & reversed.
There's nothing wrong with your writing skills or imagination though.
What a poetic way to start a Sunday.
You should have written a piece along these lines for that 'Bodhran Love Stories' thread, next door!
Thank you for your prayers. It’s really the music I am love with so the story would be more a "Traditional Irish Music Love Story" as opposed to "A Bodhrán Love Story" although it is through the bodhrán that I was introduced to playing the music. Now that’s a story I do love to relive in my mind.
I am glad I had a small part in starting your Sunday so poetically. Play a hornpipe for me today would you?
My 1 cent: has it not occurred to anyone that if Ailin hadn't posted what he did, there would probably not have been as many posts rallying behind Mark and complimenting his playing. I'd look at it positively, Mark, if I were you.
Saying that, just reading your last post there, I really think you'd have been better off refraining from posting on the thread from the outset. But hell what do I know I've never heard your playing and I don't play the bodhran. And I can see how it'd be difficult not to say anything once you'd read it.
I wish you would lay off Michael Gill too. All he said was that it was annoying when bodhran players go up and down the scale for the sake of going up and down the scale. It is fecking annoying.
Point well taken, Dow. I regret that post as well. I apologize to Ailin and the board.
You're right. It's very hard to take when all you're doing is trying to publicize an event. I've had a hellacious week at work (I teach physics as my day job), and then to come home to that. great....
John and I have worked on setting this gig up for close to a month, so you can understand my frustration. I don't read this board often, so I don't know Mr. Gill's history. Now that I have some perspective, I get it. And I'll go a step further, he's got a point. I don't agree with it, but I understand his rationale. (Michael, you'll be pleased to know that I was just asked yesterday to record on one of Scotland's finest singer's, Ed Miller, new CD. This is my second recording with Ed.)
Lastly, yes, the support from some of my friends and former students was heartening. Thank you all. And to top it all off, we'll probably have a full house for the workshop. Again, I make the offer...Ailin, your admission to the workshop is free if you choose to come, even if just to see if anything's changed. And your first pint's on me.
I'm going to slink back away now. I made a promise to myself not to read this for a while. I broke that pledge and lost a little decorum on my part in doing so. I had just sort of had my fill with all of it on top of a very crappy week at work. I apologize and will step away now.
Ed, Re: your request, I have just played one of my favourite Set Dances - The Garden of Daisies. The title seems quite appropriate given your poetic posting earlier. Not quite a Hornpipe I'm afraid, but the next best thing - I hope?
This tune has been a favourite of mine ever since I first heard it played on an old recording by Liam Walsh who played - "O'Neill's version from one Stephenson, the great Kerry Piper, via Patsy Touhey."
Thanks Dick, one of my favorites as well. I just got back from my morning walk and now I know why there was more of a spring to my step than usual. You're a good man my friend!
GZ! What's with all this Mark Stone-ing?
James, Gaelic Writer, Ed, and all the rest who appreciate the musical talent and contribution of a great bodhran player and a fine human being like Mark Stone, you are bang on. Those who haven't already done so would, perhaps, improve their own playing - regardless of their instrument - by taking one of his workshops. No one can speak with authority on the subject until s/he has - and I've yet to hear anything but kudos for Mark from the people who've had the great fortune, like me, to have him as a teacher. Mark raises the bar for us all, and cheers to him for doing it. Lauri
Ailin... Sir Lancelot called; he want's the pantyhose back.
FatherJackHackett... Has your credo ALWAYS been "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me or a frontal labotomy"
michael gill... I googled your bio for a bit more in-depth info and found that you're quite a frequent contributor to man-goat-love.com. Seems your ideas on lubrication have sparked quite a controversy on that forum as well. Also, If stories of great bodhran players just instill a deep sense of saddness within you, perhaps you should consider suicide?
Ptarmigan... get off Mark's side and go practice the Kesh jig.
Mark, Jamie, Rob, et. al... You can't argue with a sick mind.
& for all you youngsters out there, who are under 95 years of age & have never heard of this legendary series:
Champion the Wonder Horse - produced by Gene Autry
The exploits of Champion, a wild stallion who befriends twelve year-old Ricky North (Barry Curtis) in the American Southwest in the 1880's.
Although Ricky, who lived on his Uncle Sandy's (Jim Bannon) ranch, had a magnetic attraction for trouble, he was always rescued by the wonder horse, aided by the boy's other bosom companion, German shepherd dog, Rebel.
& to set the record straight:
Although Frankie Laine made a recording of the 'Champion the Wonder Horse' theme, it was 'Norman Luboff', the writer of the music, who sang the theme for the introduction and over the credits of the series, due to Frankie Laine's unavailablility for the recording session.
Mark Stone, I hope you return to this sight and read this because it may never happen again!
I have known Mark for about 8 years now, and I have to say that I think he is a fine person who tries to do the right thing (except when he and Albert bounce against my door every time they pass it in the hallway!)
Mark is a man who has a passion for his music. I don't think he takes over when he plays with melody players, on the contrary, his job is to make them sound better, to complement their style and to blend the music into something more than what it would be without his expertise on the bódhran. He's not a show-off.
I believe he is very talented and not at all self-centered. He loves kids and students and genuinely wants to further their knowledge and musicianship on the bódhran.
One of the most fun times I heard Mark play was in West Virginia. He played a solo of "When the Saints Go Marching In" on the bódhran. I didn't even know that was possible! And being that it is my Alma Mater's basketball team's theme every time they take the court, I liked it even better.
He never taught me much music, but I now understand the Tour de France ! How many afternoons did he spend with me sitting on the floor in front of his tv set asking him about a zillion questons about The Tour? He answered my questions--often the same ones over and over again---everyone of them without getting ugly or annoyed.
He's just a good guy with a big heart and a God-given talent who works hard at everything he does.
Anyway, you owe me Mark!!!! This was worth about a bunch of bananas. I think lunch at Weber's in a few weeks is very appropriate! Oh, on you of course!!! tee-hee : )
mk (NOT mc)
email me: mk and my last name @charter.net.
How is school going? I'm retiring this year---wa-hoo!!
and.... the band is going great now.
Oh, I hadn't realised until now.
If you guys had only put in some extra effort you could all have been fiddlers like me! That's such a sad waste of talent!
Oh I get it! You all with the critical comments must be uilleann pipers to a man, right?
Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Greetings all,
Mark Stone www.markstonemusic.com is conducting a three-hour workshop in Costa Mesa, CA on 8 April at Noon. Reservations are a must as space is limited. For information and
reservations contact John Prange at 949-476-2030 or drprange@cox.net.
This is an excellent opportunity to not only learn from a great teacher but meet and connect with other bodhrán players in the Southern California area. You will also have the opportunity to play a number of excellent drums by makers like Metloef (Rob Forkner), Seamus O’Kane, Albert Alfonse, Darius Bartlett, Kevin O’Connell, Steve Foreman and the like.
I am hoping that this can become an annual event or at least more events like this can be organized here in Southern California. That we can bring in great bodhrán teachers and perhaps other great musicians.
So if you have any interest in bodhrán and live or are visiting here in Southern California please join Mark for a great afternoon. BTW there is no profit motive involved.
Sincerely- John Prange
# Posted on February 23rd 2006 by mcprange
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
This sounds like a fun event, but IMO, and it is just MY opinion, Mark Stone's bodhran playing represents everything most instrumentalists hate about bodhran players. Specifically, he plays all the time, loudly, and consistently goes up and down the scale on his drum which draws attention from the melody rather than embellishing it.
If you are experienced, you can draw your own conclusions. If not, be careful about imitating his style. I know several player who have done that, and if you don't fancy constant up-and-down-the scale playing, it can be really, really annoying. So be warned.
# Posted on February 23rd 2006 by Ailin
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
"really, really annoying". Understatement of the year
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Excuse me, gentlemen...But do I know you? None of that which have describes MY playing. There must be another Mark Stone out there. Check out my website and then confirm. Where have you seen me play?
Mark Stone
www.markstonemusic.com
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Mark Stone
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Hello all,
Long time lurker, first time writer - felt I had to speak up on this point.
As much as I'm loath to take specific issue with any particular contributer's opinion, I felt compelled at this point. Mark Stone virtually exemplifies tasteful bodhran playing. While many less considerate bodhran players of varying skill levels may be accused of playing "all over the place" or "all over the drum" with wanton abandon and inconsideration of rhythm, volume, or musiciality, Mark Stone may not be found amongst their number. He is rather both assertive and controlled, measured but thoughtfully and considerately bold. His use of ornamentation on the bodhran in particular is masterful; to invoke a paradox particularly suited to the bodhran, his playing is both restrained and energetic, present but reticently rhythmic. If you don't believe me on this point, consult the litany of renowned players who have specifically requested his presence on stage and on recordings: John Williams, James Keane, Liz Carroll, Jerry Holland, John Doyle, Paul McGrattan, and James Kelly just to name a few. Personally, I can't readily think of many bodhran players who I would more readily have at any session or performance, up here in Boston, or anywhere else.
Again, this is not to take specific issue with any particular viewpoint. We're all entitled to our stylistic opinions and preferences when it comes to this wonderfully diverse musical idiom. But I certainly wanted to speak up in support of a man whose musicality and creativity on an oft-maligned insturment I very much appreciate and value. I would encourage anyone out in SoCal to attend his worjshop.
All the best,
James.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by JHamilton
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Agree 100% with James' comments. Mark Stone's playing is the very definition of tasteful, well done bodhran playing that exists in the music. His backing of tunes comes from the viewpoint of piano chordal structuring for tune accompanyment, and his bodhran playing reflects that. He is one of the few people I know (and there are a very very scarce few in the bodhran playing world I can say the following about) who not only know the tunes that they are playing, but request tune set lists with key changes to be sure when doing gigs.
I agree with James also regarding your own opinions. You can hate the bodhran all you want, etc. This is what I would attribute Michael Gill's comments to, and he is totally free to have his opinion in regards to the instruments he prefers to or not to hear. However if you are going to make comments that refer to someones playing- like "constantly goes up and down the scale, ...drawing attention away from the melody" you need to be careful, because in this case they are quite simply contrary to fact. Mark is a well-known and oft-requested accompanyist by some of the best players that there are in the music. He knows what he is doing, and is an exceptional player. His understanding of tune accompanyment on "the drum" is even such that I'd have no trouble suggesting that even your guitar and bouzouki players attend Mark's workshop. You will learn a great deal.
Cheers
Rob
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by RobBBQ
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
I must wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Hamilton. As a relative newcomer to the bodhran and to this site, I am well aware of how inconsiderate bodhran players can be (which can really apply to anyone on any instrument, don't you think?), as well as how complementary they can be, and how unfairly maligned they often are.
I had the pleasure of taking a bodhran workshop with Mark this past summer at the Swannanoa Gathering. One can learn just so much on one's own from CDs and videos and such, but having someone such as Mark gently and patiently show one how NOT to abuse the instrument, stressing the basics and the use of restraint, and highlighting the power of simplicity--referencing such pieces as Altan's "The Road to Durham" to underscore the point--can send one's learning curve soaring upward. Playing "all over the place" and "all over the drum" were absolutely nowhere in the curriculum--indeed, he emphasized the avoidance of such "showmanship" and reiterated the rules of bodhran etiquette--nor in any of the performances in which Mark participated. I had the added delight of dancing Irish ceilidh dances and contras and listening to music all week long where Mark accompanied Liz Carroll, John Doyle, Oisín Mac Diarmada, James Kelly, James Keane, and others, at the dances as well as in the jams scattered about the campus. The music and the players were spellbinding--simply amazing musicians playing pure, traditional music for the pure joy of it--no "stars," no divas--and no "playing all over the place"--and absolutely nothing that was "really, really annoying."
If you have an opportunity to attend the workshop in California, go. If you are a beginner, he will break it down for you so that you don't learn bad habits. In addition to playing along with CDs and participating in sessions, his CD, "The Bodhran," has been, for me, one of the most helpful aids in learning and practicing the sticking patterns outside his workshop. If you are experienced, he will show you the subtleties of the instrument. What anyone decides to do with the information he offers in his workshops is ultimately up to the individual, as is the case in any teaching/learning experience.
On top of everything else, he is one heck of a nice guy, ready, willing, and able to offer, in a most positive manner, suggestions and advice to improve one's playing--none of which involves pen knives, combustible fluids, and the like.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Gaelic writer
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
I have to agree with Ailin's aesthetic judgement of Mr. Stone's bodhran playing. I've seen him, and thought he was too loud and too busy.
Name dropping aside, so what? These are touring professionals who need to make their music appeal to people who don't play irish traditional music on a melody instrument, whose ears are not attuned by countless hours of listening to ITM. It is not an aesthetic endorsement as much as it is an economic one. There are other, subtler styles of bodhran playing that make up for the lack of showbiz by adding to the collective sound, instead of trying to dominate it.
As I melody player, I really dislike having to tune out a loud drum while playing in order to be able to focus on the tune at hand. Ailin and Michael are expressing valid and widely held opinions among traditional melody players. If you don't like it, well, you can always choose a different genre of music to practice.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by FatherJackHackett
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Sorry, that's "As A melody player..."
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by FatherJackHackett
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Father Jack, et al....
WHERE did you hear me play and with whom? I've NEVER been accused of being a busy player and playing loud is against my nature. There HAS to be some sort of confusion here between myself and someone else. I've never tried to "dominate the collective sound". Name dropping? Give me a break. "Showbiz?"
Please answer my question....WHERE did you see me AND with WHOM?
Mark Stone
www.markstonemusic.com
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Mark Stone
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Nice to hear all those good things about Mark. Rob, James and Gaelic Writer I share your opinion. From my contact with Mark I believe he is a warm, sensitive and honest individual and this is one of the main reasons that I lent my energy to this project.
I wonder if Ailin has mixed Mark up with someone else. With this possibility in mind I’d like to re-invite Ailin to the workshop. Ailin I’d be happy to talk to you about this workshop and encourage you to call or write me at the number or e-mail in the original message. Short of you attending the workshop perhaps we could get together on some occasion as I’m always interested in meeting other bodhrán players to share any knowledge. As I said I’d like to see more classes in the future. Ailin, perhaps you would be interested in teaching (sharing) your style at some future time.
I’d also would extend the same invitation to Father Jack Hackett.
Very Sincerely,
John Prange
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by mcprange
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Thanks for all of the support. You've got to understand my confusion as to the source of these comments. Ailin, et al....I will gladly offer you free admission to the workshop and the first pint's on me if you decide to go. I'm truly confounded as to the source of these comments. None of them apply to my personality or style of playing. There has to be some sort of mix-up. I'd really like to know the basis of these comments. I've spent precious few visits to the west coast and have never been to Scotland, so I'm confused as to the root of your opinion.
Mark Stone
www.markstonemusic.com
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Mark Stone
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
"Name dropping aside, so what? These are touring professionals who need to make their music appeal to people who don't play irish traditional music on a melody instrument, whose ears are not attuned by countless hours of listening to ITM. It is not an aesthetic endorsement as much as it is an economic one. "
Proof that you don't get it. I truly hope that you're not a Catholic priest. I'll pray for you if you are....What a cynical, un-Christian thing to say.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Mark Stone
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
As an add-on, try listening to Fr. John Corapi to get a grip.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Mark Stone
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Hey Folks
I have heard Mark and I am sure you confuse him with someone else. His playing is tasty, never disturbing ans always supportive to the tunes. I'd say he is not using the whole drum going up and down a lot, but keeps it steady. James Keane, Pual McGrattan is showbiz ?? You guys don't know a lot about the business, do you ?
Bye
Rolf
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by rwagels
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Greetings all,
Well I have to say that it seems to me the line of friendly chiding has been crossed. This to me is very unfortunate especially in a community of creative people that carry on a musical tradition that has itself faced this form of ugly prejudice historically. Although I have never met Mark personally I have heard his playing on a number of different CD’s included amongst them his own bodhrán instructional CD. I highly recommend his instructional CD to anyone wishing to learn this most noble instrument.
All I can say to the naysayers is that the bodhrán is a part of the tradition. Like it or not it is here to stay. To my way of thinking the tradition, and all its players, are extremely fortunate to have the likes of Mark Stone offering his talent, time, and energy to the goal of developing quality players to carry on.
To those who wish to learn to play the bodhrán or those who wish to hone their skills and reach for new levels of quality play you are well served to attend any workshop given by Mark.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by ejsant
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
I don't know you Mark, and have never heard you play, so I'm ill equiped to take sides on this one. However, I would like to take a straw poll on how many of you supporters play the bodhran?
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Cheer up guys - onwards & upwards eh! How many of you will be heading for Miltown in Kerry this June?
http://www.bodhran.ca/Default.aspx?tabid=1883
What are your views on this idea - a town full of hundreds & hundreds of Bodhran players - can it work?
Surely there are a limit to the number of Bodhrans which can get involved in any one session, aren't there?
Do you not think that the thought of a small town full of hundreds & hundreds & hundreds of Bodhran players might just perhaps put off some of the other musicians, you guys will need to make up the sessions?
I guess what I'm thinking is, a Pipers festival can work with only Pipers there, so can a Fiddlers festival or a Harp festival - but a Bodhran festival?
Any thoughts?
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
MG, as you know I never take sides, I just sit on the fence with my big wooden spoon!
But to answer your question, I do play the Bodhran, but not in sessions.
It was my 2nd instrument, after the Jews Harp, & over the years, I must confess, I have taught hundreds of kids the rudiments of Bodhran playing.
It believe it does have a place in ITM & like everyone else here, I have my own likes & dislikes when it comes to the way they are played in sessions.
In sessions I like the Bodhran to be tucked in BEHIND the music, along with the other, what I think of as, accompanying instruments, e.g. Guitar, Bouzouki, etc.
However, to qualify that, I also like the other melody instruments to blend in too, & so dislike those flash harrys who try & shove their over-inflated musical egos up the nose of all around them by playing louder than all around them, in an attempt to dominate!
Moderation is perhaps the key word here, so ITM players should not be too loud, their style should not be over-ornamented, there should not be too many of any one instrument in any one session etc etc
But, like I say, I'm sitting on the fence on this one.........................
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Mr. Gill, You don't know me or my playing, yet you feel compelled to criticise? As for the answer to your question, with the exception of Jamie Hamilton, everyone else who's lent their support is a bodhran player, some of them the finest you'll ever hear or meet, including Rolf Wagels and Rob Forkner. Incidently, Rob is considered among the top bodhran makers in the world at the moment. Rolf works with another renowned maker and has his own special edition drum named for him.
Once again. Ptarmigan works to hijack the thread....
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Mark Stone
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Moi?
This 'so-called' thread you talk about started as an 'advert', which attracted some plain speaking, which in turn upset a few thin skinned percussionists folks who proceeded to patronise the poster.
I was simply trying to diffuse the situation & help to create an actual thread from the above mess, before it developed into a full scale slagging match!
I'm sure John Prange is absolutely delighted with all this extra publicity!
It's hardly what you would call a balanced discussion, given that, as MG implied, most or all of those who contributed are in fact Bodhran players.
Incidentally, hijacking is surely a legitimate passtime for anyone who visits these discussion boards.
A strong, interesting, well balanced thread will always be well able to stand a bit of tweeking & still stay the course & that is my opinion, which is what these yolks are all about.
It would have been nice to hear from non bodhran players on the above & I was endeavoring to draw them in, but just as, explaining a joke spoils the punch-line .......................................
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Mark, I checked out your website in the hope of hearing an example of your playing but I couldn't find anything. Put a few mp3's on the site then we can all listen and arrive at an informed conclusion.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by MPM
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
MPM, try www.cdbaby.com/markstone. There are sound clips on that site. Thanks for at least giving me a chance....
Mark
www.markstonemusic.com
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Mark Stone
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Yes Mark, I do not know your playing. However, where did I criticise? My first post merely reiterated the fact that fancy constant up-and-down-the scale playing can be really, really annoying. And since all your apologists insist you don't do this, how can you complain about that? And pointing out that it's difficult to get people to defend the thing unless they play it, is hardly criticism either, mere fact.
That said, and I reiterate from the 7/8 thread, the argument against bodhrans is simple. They are thwacked by two types of people. musicians and non musicians. It's obvious why you should keep non musisians away from a session. But if you are a musician, for the life of me why not play the bloody tunes instead?
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Greetings Dick,
“I was simply trying to diffuse the situation & help to create an actual thread “
Your efforts noted and appreciated as always.
“This 'so-called' thread you talk about started as an 'advert', which attracted some plain speaking, which in turn upset a few thin skinned percussionists folks who proceeded to patronise the poster.”
I agree this was simply an advert, or in reality an attempt to put forth information as I am fairly certain John has no intentions of making any profit from the venture. However the “plain speaking” you refer to is with-out merit and entirely inaccurate. I quote; “…Mark Stone's bodhran playing represents everything most instrumentalists hate about bodhran players.” Mark’s recording credits and playing experience dispel this. As to my being “thin skinned” I can assure you that after two divorces and my choices as to the instruments I play my skin is anything but thin. As to my being “patronizing” I would disagree. I simply wanted to set the record straight.
“It would have been nice to hear from non bodhran players on the above & I was endeavoring to draw them in,…”
As stated above I think one need only look to Mark’s experience to know how non-bodhrán players weigh in on the subject.
Peace,
Ed
P.S. Michael for the same reason there is chocolate and vanilla ice cream.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by ejsant
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
OK Ed, I must admit, Ailin's comments were a 'trifle clumsy' & 'heavy handed', but he was, after all, describing a style of Bodhran playing which he obviously does not appreciate & he did qualify them, by stating they were only his opinion.
He must surely recognise that he can only speak for himself & I think that was his mistake, in writing in a manner that gave the impression that he was speaking for everyone else here.
He clearly has strong opinions about Bodhran playing but he can't possibly know what the rest of us think about Mark Stone's playing, given that many of us haven't actually heard Mark play - or hadn't until he posted those clips.
However, I'm sure Ailin will appreciate that neither is he Dog's gift to ITM & that his playing will no doubt upset or perhaps annoy someone else, sometime.
I'm sure he would not be very keen to come onto session.org & find folks were sitting around here slagging off his best efforts at ITM.
So I would be surprised if he wasn't a little more tactful, the next time he gives 'his' opinion here.
I'm sure lessons have been learned here today & I'm also pretty sure young Mark, being a Bodhran player, will be thick skinned (
) enough to be able to take all this in his stride!
As they say up here in Ulster Mark - 'Slap it up them'!
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
I would like to say that Mark is not only an extremely tasteful player, but one of the nicer folks I have had the pleasure of meeting. Though it has been some years since we crossed paths, Mark was extremely supportive of my bodhran habits and a true gentleman. It is an embarrassment that this discussion (emphasis on the first syllable)(the second syllable is that to which I am inclined in response) is happening.
Have some respect.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Sean O'Hare
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
"Have some respect"
Well said seano. I'll second that.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Strathfoyle
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Hey all,
Just to throw a slightly different slight on some preceding comments/aspersions on Mark's playing... I, for one, am a flute player - as well as, note, a melody player speaking up in full support of and out of respect for one of the finest and most accomplished traditional percussionists I've encountered.
I intend no disrespect for the views of those who have a slightly more pejorative view of the bodhran and of those individuals who play them (or attempt to). In fact, I'll be the first to admit that nothing kills a good session, to say nothing of a good recording, faster than bad bodhran playing (or, shall we say, non-musical - a rather woolly term...). In the wrong hands, a bodhran can be possibly the most intrusive and disruptive instrument imaginable, the death-knell of good music. I would readily contend, however, that this may be said of *any* percussion instrument, in any idiom. It is not a unique characteristic of the bodhran. Imagine, for example, a pipe-and-drum corps with incompetent snare drummers, or Indian ragas with sloppy tabla.
And I'll readily repeat that Mark is Not such an incompetent musician. Quite the opposite, really. As for economic factors overriding strictly aesthetic concerns when it comes to the performative activity of such individuals as Paul McGrattan, James Kelly, etc. - I can only guess that certain individuals involved in this discussion may have confused the performance repertoires of those consummate and devoted traditional musicians with that of a certain greasy-chested, tights-clad dancer of some ambivalent repute.
J.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by JHamilton
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
But, stories of great bodhran players just instill a deep sense of saddness within me. A deep sense of what might have been. What we could be hearing had that genuinly talented person put in that little bit more effort and learned to play an instrument instead of just banging away. What a waste
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
How about an mp3 link to Mark Stone playing the Bodhra(fada)n so we can all hear what we're missing ?
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Red Robin
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Again, Mr. Gill. Read my website. I am a classically trained musician, received by bachelor's degree on a music scholarship to a respected college of music, and play piano for the choir at my church.
" A little more effort" on your part should be spent on manners and decorum.
Mark
www.markstonemusic.com
www.poormansfortune.com (w/ sound clips)
www.cdbaby.com/markstone (w/ sound clips)
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Mark Stone
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
By an extension of that logic, can we go so far as to say that the respective idioms of Buddy Rich, Keith Moon, Roy Haynes, Lars Ulrich (my hats off to anyone who can do drum roll with foot pedals), Zakir Hussain, and John-Joe Kelly would all be better off if these musicians (and I use the term pointedly here) had all opted to play melody instruments rather than percussion? For all intents and purposes, the bodhran appears to be a percussion instrument like any other, eg. the trap-kit, tabla, snare, djembe, rik, etc., and as such can be used both to enrich and to detract from its native idiom. To suggest that all bodhran players, by occluding their own performance of the melody via their choice of instrument, are necessarily either detracting from the tradition or in some way making an inferior contribution seems like highly reductive reasoning. Moreover, we need look no further than a tyro uilleann piper or whistle player for the melodic counterpoint to bad (again, non-musical?) bodhran playing... let's not lose sight of the fact that making a hash of the music is a multi-directional street.
Rejoinders? I'm genuinely curious here.
J.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by JHamilton
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
I like that quote on your web site:
“If you must play the bodhrán, play it this way!”
-Billy McComiskey introducing Mark Stone in Los Angeles
I think this may sum you up, in a way. And I'm not trying to be patronizing here, it's because I "don't get it". I just don't get why a musician would want to bang a simple frame drum.
I've been listening to some of your sound clips and you can play alright, there's no doubt about that. But this makes the "why" all the more intangible. So I suppose that all anyone can say really is that if you "must" play it, play it like that.
And, J Hamilton. You are not extending logic, because my complaint of the simple frame drum hit with the double ended stick is specific to Irish diddley music in sessions. Yes it is an entertaining spectacle at a concert, and can be a lovely extra timbre in a well crafted studio recording. But what the bodhran does in diddley music is a completely different kettle of fish from all those you mentioned above. All the bodhran does is hit a beat at the same time there is a note in the melody. The very definition of a good bodhran player is to be able to follow the tune as closely as possible. Which leaves the very simple extrapolation of, what's the point?
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Jamie,
You forgot Neil Peart.
Mark
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Mark Stone
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Michael - we may have to come to a gentlemanly agreement to disagree on this point, which I am perfectly happy to do. As I said earlier, we are all absolutely entitled to our opinions and preferences when it comes to this music, and I won't ever go so far as to argue that one set of those is any better than another. By all means, I respect your dislike for the bodhran. I can also clearly see from where it may easily have arisen.
However, your comments do open a potentially very constructive line of inquiry. I don't mean this to antagonize, but merely to promote just such constructive debate on the subject - isn't "hitting a beat at the same time there is a note in the melody" something approaching a reductio ad absurdum not just of the bodhran, but of all percussion? In the most reductively basic view of percussion, isn't that the point? To provide a plosive accentuation of the melody? "The point" of percussion, in my opinion, might be found in the creative extention and extrapolation of that simple priniciple. The proffer a example, consider the difference between the percussive, musical styles of Ringo McDonagh and John-Joe Kelly - both respected, even venerated members of the IrTrad community. Can we reduce their playing to the description above? Might that not be inviting at least some censure for reductive reasoning?
Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight or be belligerent - I think this could be a very constructive, informative point to pursue, for all parties, and I'd love to here with other folks have to say about it, especially those who disagree entirely. Knowledge is sired in the bedroom of dissent....
James.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by JHamilton
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Father Jack Hackett--Excuse me, but do you know me? Is it your assumption/insinuation here that all of those of us who attended the Gathering and/or Mark's workshop "don't play Irish traditional music on a melody instrument" or have "ears that are not attuned by countless hours of listening to ITM"? Fancy that. To think that I sought out a place where I could learn from those gifted individuals willing to share their knowledge so that I might learn how to play correctly and not butcher the music and the instruments. To think that I actually looked for a place where I could be immersed in the music that I have listened to for over 25 years--countless hours by my reckoning--for an entire week, essentially 24 hours a day. How to fathom agreeing to pay tuition for their expertise? I mean, if I wanted to take lessons from anyone on this site who teaches and plays professionally full-time, would I not have to pay him/her, or would he/she do it out of the goodness of his/her heart and for the love of the music? Are you all independently wealthy? And who were all those people in the bodhran workshop who also played fiddle, flute, whistle, harp, piano, concertina, and pipes--and sang? And how dare that Irish flute player who plays in a trad band north of here ask me to play bodhran with him in a small session. As for the comment, "It is not an aesthetic endorsement as much as it is an economic one," well, I'm wondering how many of these folks who taught and played all week retired after that week because sales of their CDs soared world-wide or were suddenly able to charge exhorbitant fees for a performance. The music was sublime, whether played for the dances or in the small sessions that sprouted all over the campus, bringing together some of the world's finest musicians in traditional music, some who had never played together before. No, Father Jack Hackett, you truly don't get it.
Mr. Gill, you're repeating yourself. Clearly, from your many posts in this and other threads, we understand your position on the bodhran. Clearly. And again, I maintain that ANY instrument in the hands of a poor/bad/mis-taught/got-no-clue player is painful to listen to and play along with and can ruin a session. That said, I reckon that the next time I'm in a session with a fiddle player who can't keep a steady tempo or screeches out a few notes or showboats, I'm guessing I'd be justified in gettin' a rope and stringin' 'em up for rustlin' the music. But there's no joy to be found in that for me. I'd rather we just keep practicing and taking pleasure in the music, as I find a closed mind truly a waste.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Gaelic writer
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
I'm glad we understand each other to the extent that we know we are not trying to pick a fight or be belligerent. So on with the discussion:
Lets look at percussion in other musics.
Tabla? There is such an enormous amount of complex sub divisions of beats.
Jazz - trad, modern, free form, be-bob? Again, subtle subdivisions. Also many drums of widely differing characteristics.
What these two examples have in common is their drummers' ability to access areas of the music that is otherwise open. A bodhran player does not have this space, because diddley music is very dense. The point is, I can think of no greater example of a musical art form than diddley, where all the music is in the melody.
Rock? Does what it says on the tin. It's repetitive but it's the noise that counts. You could say this of diddley music too, and many do. But we know that the best of it is not repetitive at all and my view is that to re-enforce what repetition there is with a drum, is usually worse than pointless. The great skill of a great melody player is to disguise the repetition with variation/ornamant/decoration/dynamics etc
So is Bodhran playing detracting from the tradition in some way? Well seeings as its a traditional thing, it can't be. But does it detract from the music? At it's very very best, I'll submit that it may well be capable of making an inferior contribution.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Ha, good fun cross post there, my first sentence was for JHamilton, but it was much funnier after the Gaelic writer
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
(And there is an "across the pond" cultural blindspot at work here also. You need to be aquanted with the TV character of Father Jack to understand the poster's hijacking of his monogramme)
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Got it. I completely forgot about "Father Ted".
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Mark Stone
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
How could you possibly forget Father Jack:
http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/2079/Jack3.wav
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Nope, while I'm not familiar with the TV character to which you refer--don't watch much TV regardless--I was simply responding to the moniker Father Jack provided.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Gaelic writer
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
“The great skill of a great melody player is to disguise the repetition with variation/ornamant/decoration/dynamics etc”
Funny thing about prospective is that I would use these same words to describe the skills of a great bodhrán player.
Michael,
My debating academics with you would be senseless on my part as I am a simple person of limited academic skill. I would liken my coming to such a debate with you to my coming prepared for fencing and you jousting.
That said I would submit that based on the increased frequency with which the bodhrán has been included on recordings of the music and quite frankly my personal observations of a reduction in the opining of those that wish it to be excluded (present company excluded of course), skilled players have indeed found adequate space in the tune and more people are recognizing this as time continues. Now in the interest of fair play I personally believe that life is 99.9% mystery and .01% science. I fully expect that you and I will never recognize each other’s reasoning.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by ejsant
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Michael - extremely valid and cogent points vis a vis the different percussion idioms I brought up. By no means do I want to suggest that the percussive abilities of the bodhran can easily equal the texture available to the tabla or the jazz drum kit. The simple fact of the number of drum heads available on the different instruments largely proscribes that. I would, however, still persist in suggesting that some pan-idiomatic respect for percussion instruments is warranted.
Also an excellent point regarding the relative density of "Diddly" music (aren't we kind of reinforcing a stigma here ;>). And I agree on the implied point that, in this music, the melody is paramount - accompaniment of any kind, no matter who skillful or subtle, is by definition superfluous and marginal to some degree. Not that I mean to say that John Doyle and Michael Holmes and Yves le Coant need to pack it in 'cause we don't need them anymore... I suppose I would simply argue that, in my opinion, there is more space in the musical topography of IrTrad music that is accessible to the bodhran. I certainly wouldn't argue that it's "the noise that counts", simply because one need only go as far as Donnacha Gough (sp?), Junior Davey or - I'll venture so far to say - Mark Stone for examples of the splendid range and variability of "noise" that can be produced even by an instrument as simple in appearance as the bodhran. Again, though, this is simply my opinion.
I would also argue, though, that there is more of a widening of the bodhran's capability based on its structure than one might immediately think. Consider the *very* different sound and dynamic range inherent in, say a Charlie Byrne 18X4" bodhran as opposed to a Metloef 12X6" bodhran with a weighted kangaroo skin head. These structural variations don't make the bodhran a tabla or one of Neil Peart's setups (God, how could I forget, Mark?) - but they do accord it far greater tonal and rhythmic flexibility than it was once given credit for.
Underlying all of these comments is also the suggestion that, even if you presently don't care at all for the bodhran, you might want to give it just a little bit more time. I have had what I consider to be the good fortune of encountering and interacting with something of an embarassment of riches in terms of fabulous bodhran players and makers - and believe me, hope is on the horizon. Rob Forkner (of Metloef Irish Drums) is a very good friend of mine; his drums are truly remarkable creations, and condusive to fabulously varied tones. In the right hands, I'd say they offer some hope as to the recuperation of the bodhran's bad name. I've also had the opportunity to play with others such as Albert Alphonso, Mark Stone, Steve Forman, Eamonn Murray, and others - and all is not lost in the bodhran world!
And again, these are only my opinions - "a chacun sa verite". Enjoying the discussion!
All the best,
James.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by JHamilton
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
That'll teach you to use your nickname - Mr. 'that would be an ecumenical matter'!
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Just heard Mark Stone play bodhran on www.poormansfortune.com and the lad is VERY gifted ! nice one Mark !
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Red Robin
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Hi, gang. Some pretty strong opinions, much more strongly stated than mine. However, since the man himself has seen fit to respond, let me at least answer his questions. I heard Mark play some years back at the CTMS Summer Solstice Festival. He played on stage, jammed , and taught. Up until that time, I had never heard anyone play the way Mark does (perhaps he's changed since then - I don't know). Mark may be gratified to know that a number of people who took his workshop have emulated his style, and that is what prompted my post. Please remember that I did state that experienced players could come to their own conclusions about what they like or don't like, but as a bodhran and flute player, I felt moved to encourage beginners to be wary about adopting Mark's style. I can't think of a nicer way to put it than the way I did, so if anyone is offended, I can't help you. I didn't say Mark's playing is bad, which is only a matter of my aesthetic judgment. What I said is that his style of playing is why many instrumentalists don't like about bodhran players which is more of an observation than a value judgment. Obviously, many disagree with me, and that's fine.
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Ailin
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Ailin,
I have indeed refined my playing and simplified it. I haven't been to CTMS in at least 10 years, so of course things have changed. You based your post and tried to derail a workshop based on one weekend many years ago?
Go back and reread your original post. "Plays all the time, loudly...draws attention from the melody rather than embellishing it"....Sounds like a value judgement to me.
Mark
www.markstonemusic.com
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Mark Stone
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
No, Mark, it is not a value judgment. One may disagree with my assessment, but it is not a value judgment. A value judgment assigns value, meaning good or bad. What I stated is an assessment. That you played constantly, in the forefront, and up-and-down the scale is a simple statement of fact as I see it. I solicited others' opinions at the time to see if my reaction was off base, and found that many agreed.
I have no desire to "derail" the event, which is why I started my post by saying it sounds like a fun event. I meant that. Such a gathering will result in good times with or without a particular particpant or teacher. Never did I encourage anyone not to attend. I think it would be arrogant to do so, and I'd be surprised if anyone made a decision about the event based on my opinion. However, there are a lot more bodhran players around now that there were when I started. Far too many are either bad technicians or good technicians that don't employ much taste, variation, or reserve. I wanted to make a point about that, and oops, it involved me getting into comments about your abilities. I knew there would be disagreement, but I felt the discussion was worth having.
A comment about Michael Gill: Michael likes to bash bodhran players, and although I often disagree with him (being a bodhran player myself), I agree with one point he continually comes back to: I don't believe you can compare a great bodhran player with a great instrumentalist.. The level of skill it takes to be a very fine bodhran player, if you have any affinity for rhythm and percussion, is not great. You can become quite a fine player in very short order. I really don't understand why someone would make bodhran their only instrument.
Where you can fairly take me to task is that I heard you a long time ago, and I should have at least stated that, although your style seemed pretty entrenched, and I guess I made the assumption that you were probably playing the same way today. If I am wrong, please disregard this notice and be assured that your account will be restored within 24 hours.
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Ailin
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Ailin,
Email me off-list please. We need to have a little talk. Your assessment of the situation and mine are totally different.
Mark
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Mark Stone
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
This thread has certainly grown since I last looked in on it!
I've listened to Mark's clips of his playing and he's good. I wouldn't mind having him at any session I was in.
Michael Gill, you've been going on a lot about why a musician should want to play a bodhran. Well Mark has given us examples of his playing; how about you? Tell us where we can find some clips of your playing and we can make some informed comparisons and comments.
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by MPM
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
THWACK...........
Did I just hear a gauntlet being thrown down?
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
“Is it really Ailin's fault for not keeping abreast of your continual professional development? ”
Absolutely not, but his pontificating could have been initially qualified, as it has since been, and the ensuing discourse’s negativity avoided.
“THWACK...........”
That may very well be the “THWACK………” heard around the world I suspect. In my opinion it matters not how Michael plays the music as his opinions should be allowed to stand on their own merits.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by ejsant
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Y'all don't mess with Texas, hear?
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by joesmith
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
We hear ya, Laitch:
http://www.dontmesswithtexas.org/
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
This is a public forum. This is where the man on the street/in the session can come and say what he thinks. Ailin is informative in his bio about his background, so we can assess for ourselves whether we value the opinion of a self confessed 'Renny' (Though I don't see myself why this should automatically place him further down the food chain, any more than the fact that M.Gill is a 'viola player from Scotland') - which is more than we can with some of the non-existant/non-informative bios of some of the contributors above. This open access to all is both the strength and weakness of internet forums. You may not know that the authoritative sounding advice on bowing technique or whatever has only got two years fiddling experience behind him, but at least ordinary people can say what they think which gives people a rounder view than if all we had to go on were professional websites. - Ailin should IMHO resist being dragged into a private debate where he is 'put right'. He's expressed a valid opinion, which I've read, and I've listened to the professionally recorded MP3s on Marks site, and I must say I disagree with his assessment of Mark's style of playing, though I think there is an underlying argument that maybe a 'professional' style of drumming which sounds great in the context of a band arrangement might not be the best style for the majority of sessions - but of course, anyone who can play that well can probably play in a style to suit any occasion.
Mark
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
I agree with all you say Mark, except for perhaps - "which is more than we can with some of the non-existant/non-informative bios of some of the contributors above."
I don't really feel that we should be under any obligation to declare who we are here, or give out private details if we don't wish, or details of our playing history or ability.
Let's face it, anyone could write any old bo**ocks in a bio here too, just to give themselves a bit of street cred.
I prefer it when there is a bit of a story & a photo to put to the name at the end of a thread, but it's not necessary because in time, if a person is contributing regularly, we get a fair measure of where they are coming from & how much they know, or don't know, about ITM.
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
'anyone could write any old bo**ocks in a bio here too, just to give themselves a bit of street cred'
True enough. Enough bo**ocks is written on this site already (some of it by yours truly)
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
As an absolutely brilliant bodhran player, who also dabbles with other instruments, I just posted this to make poor old M.Gill feel an incredible sadness. Just think, I could have been a wonderful piper, or flautist or fiddler. What a waste (Ian Dury)
# Posted on February 25th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
I just finished a post about why I thing the bodhran is so maligned, and then I see this thread. Even though I'm glad to see some new screen names contributing so passionately here (some who I know personally) I'm disappointed that this discussion judging Mark Stone had to happen at all. I think Ailin's post was a bit irresponsible and uncalled for. Everyone has his or her personal opinions, but there was no need to put down Mark's bodhran playing on a thread announcing an event he was doing.
As far as personal opinions go -- everyone has them. Sometimes I'm amazed at how one man's musical trash is another man's musical inspiration. I remember a conversation with one of our new contributors here where he thought a recording from one of the major contributors to ITM belonged in the trash bin. I also remember being shocked to hear that a good friend of mine skipped the songs on a CDs that featured one of my favorite singers. He said they were "rubbish."
My point is that we all have our personal opinions based on our personal tastes, but unless the discussion calls for it, we should just keep it to ourselves. In my opinion -- Ailin crossed that line.
# Posted on February 26th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Just stumbled across this discussion, and have to put my two cents in. I took Mark's bodhran class at Swannanoa last year, and I'll second everything gaelic writer said about Mark and the class; it was one of the more informative and useful classes I've had at Swannanoa over the years I've gone.
Mark's teaching stresses respect for the tradiition and learning how to fit into it. He got James Kelly to come to a class to talk about his experiences growing up and learning to play, so that we'd get a better feel for where the music comes from and the culture that gave rise to it. He's the antithesis of the things people say they don't like about bodhran players, in addiition to being a good teacher.
Go take the workshop if you're in the area. Mark's a class act and you'll learn a lot about the bodhran and about ITM. You'll certainly learn more from going to one of his workshops than you will from reading the writings of most of the self-appointed critics who've "contributed" to this thread.
Jeff Willner
# Posted on February 26th 2006 by jeff_willner
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Trying to put a face with a name, Jeff. Where were you in the circle?
Karen
# Posted on February 26th 2006 by Gaelic writer
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Okay, I'm going to break my silence and own rule....
After long thought, I've deduced who "Ailin" is. For what it's worth, he won't respond to my emails or offers to talk civily.(Nut it up and give me a call).
"Ailin" is a renny who was jealous that I was teaching at the CTMS Summer Solstict Festival and he wasn't. He didn't like the fact that I openly criticized rennies (strike one) who played with a hammer dulcimer player at the ren fair (strike two) and justifed his constant moving of the right hand to keep up with Irish music being played two fast (strike three...YOU'RE OUT!).
He didn't like that I taught against the very things he did and so he's criticizing my playing in his post and derailing (I don't care what you say. Beg to differ? Grow and set and CALL me)my workshop on the very things I tried to teach him NOT to do.
BTW, let's keep some perspective here...I was on the STAGE playing with the aforementioned and he was in the AUDIENCE. Enough said.
# Posted on February 26th 2006 by Mark Stone
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
I have nto really been following this thread carefully, but I get the jist of it.
With that being said I bring a direct quotation of Ailin's bio:
"Ailin
I worked the original California Renaissance Pleasure Faire for 17 years, and have been playing ITM for 20 years. My instruments are wooden flute (I have an 19th century 8-key, and two Casey Burns flutes), tin whistle, bodhran, and bones.
Been to Ireland and Scotland to play with the locals. I do gigs more than sessions these days, but not a lot - maybe three or four times a year. On St. Patrick's I may do as many as three gigs in one day.
After all these years, my collection of tunes is still modest, mostly because I'm picky about what I learn. I like tunes that stand out, or I won't go to the trouble to memorize them. A friend of mine refers to the bodhran as the instrument for the repertoire-challenged. There's more than a little truth to that."
Since i have met one person in this thread in real life I have choosen to agree with them, that would be Ed aka ejsant. He is a *good* bodhran player, and knows that 3 bodhrans are more than enough for one session and then he goes to guitar. So if Ed learned from Mark's instructional CD, Mark cannot be a bad player.
Michael Gill, some people just want to bang on stuff (obviously there are other things they are not banging, oh come on you were thinking it), let that be their decision.
# Posted on February 26th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Avery,
Thank you for your kind words. If my whiskey soaked memory is correct I only received Mark’s instructional CD last year sometime. That said, as with the other great bodhrán players I’ve either met or partook of an instructional by way of CD or other media, I took away some great tuition from Mark’s CD. I am of the mind that one can learn from everyone they encounter along their path regardless of their “station” or abilities. Lest there be any confusion, it was easy for me to garner improvement in my playing from Mark’s CD as he is a significantly more skilled player than I.
As to my knowing that three bodhráns are too many for a session let me just say that there are times in my opinion when three may not be too many and times when one is decidedly too many. It’s a matter of what adds to the tune and/or the moment. Same can be said of the guitar, any other backing, or for that matter another melody instrument joining in. There are times when just the lone pipes, fiddle, flute, whistle, box, or whatever conveys the soul of the tune, times when the impassioned vision of the composer and the compassion of the player meet. These are magical times that in my mind are to be allowed unimpeded as only then can one really begin to understand the potential of this great music.
As I face the chronic deterioration of my motor functions, which currently grossly effects my balance, and may very well take my mobility some of the most cherished memories of the music I have had the great fortune to amass are when a lone melody player offers a jig or perhaps a hornpipe that allows me to close my eyes and envision myself dancing along the top of a stone wall along a country lane in the middle of rolling green meadows awash with the brilliant colors of wild flowers or a reel that allows the vision of my racing down a river in a currach weaving and bobbing with the current. This to me is the magic of this music. A magic I pray I always have the good fortune to witness.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on February 26th 2006 by ejsant
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Ed, very sorry to hear that you are not well. I pray that, somehow, this deterioration is halted & reversed.
There's nothing wrong with your writing skills or imagination though.
What a poetic way to start a Sunday.
You should have written a piece along these lines for that 'Bodhran Love Stories' thread, next door!
# Posted on February 26th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Good afternoon Dick,
Thank you for your prayers. It’s really the music I am love with so the story would be more a "Traditional Irish Music Love Story" as opposed to "A Bodhrán Love Story" although it is through the bodhrán that I was introduced to playing the music. Now that’s a story I do love to relive in my mind.
I am glad I had a small part in starting your Sunday so poetically. Play a hornpipe for me today would you?
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on February 26th 2006 by ejsant
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
My 1 cent: has it not occurred to anyone that if Ailin hadn't posted what he did, there would probably not have been as many posts rallying behind Mark and complimenting his playing. I'd look at it positively, Mark, if I were you.
Saying that, just reading your last post there, I really think you'd have been better off refraining from posting on the thread from the outset. But hell what do I know I've never heard your playing and I don't play the bodhran. And I can see how it'd be difficult not to say anything once you'd read it.
# Posted on February 26th 2006 by Dow
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
I wish you would lay off Michael Gill too. All he said was that it was annoying when bodhran players go up and down the scale for the sake of going up and down the scale. It is fecking annoying.
# Posted on February 26th 2006 by Dow
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
you, as in, you people in general.
# Posted on February 26th 2006 by Dow
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Hey Dow, nice to see you stickin' up for the 'little guy'!
As a reward, thought you might enjoy this - some rare footage of 'Herr Button' in action:
http://www.causewaymusic.co.uk/pb_in_action.html
# Posted on February 26th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Point well taken, Dow. I regret that post as well. I apologize to Ailin and the board.
You're right. It's very hard to take when all you're doing is trying to publicize an event. I've had a hellacious week at work (I teach physics as my day job), and then to come home to that. great....
John and I have worked on setting this gig up for close to a month, so you can understand my frustration. I don't read this board often, so I don't know Mr. Gill's history. Now that I have some perspective, I get it. And I'll go a step further, he's got a point. I don't agree with it, but I understand his rationale. (Michael, you'll be pleased to know that I was just asked yesterday to record on one of Scotland's finest singer's, Ed Miller, new CD. This is my second recording with Ed.)
Lastly, yes, the support from some of my friends and former students was heartening. Thank you all. And to top it all off, we'll probably have a full house for the workshop. Again, I make the offer...Ailin, your admission to the workshop is free if you choose to come, even if just to see if anything's changed. And your first pint's on me.
I'm going to slink back away now. I made a promise to myself not to read this for a while. I broke that pledge and lost a little decorum on my part in doing so. I had just sort of had my fill with all of it on top of a very crappy week at work. I apologize and will step away now.
Cheers,
Mark
# Posted on February 26th 2006 by Mark Stone
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Ed, Re: your request, I have just played one of my favourite Set Dances - The Garden of Daisies. The title seems quite appropriate given your poetic posting earlier. Not quite a Hornpipe I'm afraid, but the next best thing - I hope?
This tune has been a favourite of mine ever since I first heard it played on an old recording by Liam Walsh who played - "O'Neill's version from one Stephenson, the great Kerry Piper, via Patsy Touhey."
# Posted on February 26th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Nicely, Mark.
I'm sure it'll be a great gig.
# Posted on February 26th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Sorry, I meant 'nicely put'
Duh!
# Posted on February 26th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Thanks Dick, one of my favorites as well. I just got back from my morning walk and now I know why there was more of a spring to my step than usual. You're a good man my friend!
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on February 26th 2006 by ejsant
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
So what tunes will you be playing in the workshop then?
Sorryyyy! Only kidding
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Dow
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
"The Rhythm Method" by Neil Peart ;)
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by Mark Stone
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
GZ! What's with all this Mark Stone-ing?
James, Gaelic Writer, Ed, and all the rest who appreciate the musical talent and contribution of a great bodhran player and a fine human being like Mark Stone, you are bang on. Those who haven't already done so would, perhaps, improve their own playing - regardless of their instrument - by taking one of his workshops. No one can speak with authority on the subject until s/he has - and I've yet to hear anything but kudos for Mark from the people who've had the great fortune, like me, to have him as a teacher. Mark raises the bar for us all, and cheers to him for doing it. Lauri
# Posted on February 27th 2006 by lauri
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Ailin... Sir Lancelot called; he want's the pantyhose back.
FatherJackHackett... Has your credo ALWAYS been "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me or a frontal labotomy"
michael gill... I googled your bio for a bit more in-depth info and found that you're quite a frequent contributor to man-goat-love.com. Seems your ideas on lubrication have sparked quite a controversy on that forum as well. Also, If stories of great bodhran players just instill a deep sense of saddness within you, perhaps you should consider suicide?
Ptarmigan... get off Mark's side and go practice the Kesh jig.
Mark, Jamie, Rob, et. al... You can't argue with a sick mind.
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by laridee
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Och Laridee, I just can't help myself. It's that old stiff upper lip, Bulldog Spirit of always championing the under-dog! or was it the wonder-horse?
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Ptarmigan, you REALLY need to consider the fact that you're typing words but no meaning is coming out. But, then again... ibid.
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by laridee
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Sorry Laridee - 'Champion the Wonder Horse' - probably was a little before your time!
Probably before everyone's time, here!
Or are there any other - Walking Fossils here?
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Hiiyoooh, Silver !
Don´t get me started, Dick...........
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by murfbox
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Champion - wasn't that Gene Autrey's horse?
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Didn´t Frankie Lane sing the theme tune ?
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by murfbox
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Frankie Lane?! Did Gene Autrey need somebody else to sing his theme song? Harumph!
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Yikes! I've been misspelling the old guys name. It's Autry.
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Stand by for happy memories guys:
http://www.whirligig-tv.co.uk/tv/children/westerns/champion.wav
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
You guys need to find another thread to hijack. I think this one has been thuroughly beaten, pun intended.
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Wallowing in nostalgia, he ignores Unseen122's plea & carries on.......
See the prog's actual intro sequence here:
http://www.whirligig-tv.co.uk/tv/children/westerns/champion.ram
& for all you youngsters out there, who are under 95 years of age & have never heard of this legendary series:
Champion the Wonder Horse - produced by Gene Autry
The exploits of Champion, a wild stallion who befriends twelve year-old Ricky North (Barry Curtis) in the American Southwest in the 1880's.
Although Ricky, who lived on his Uncle Sandy's (Jim Bannon) ranch, had a magnetic attraction for trouble, he was always rescued by the wonder horse, aided by the boy's other bosom companion, German shepherd dog, Rebel.
& to set the record straight:
Although Frankie Laine made a recording of the 'Champion the Wonder Horse' theme, it was 'Norman Luboff', the writer of the music, who sang the theme for the introduction and over the credits of the series, due to Frankie Laine's unavailablility for the recording session.
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Crap! Thrown out of yet another establishment! Hey, there's another hijack under way down the hall. Let's crash that one.
# Posted on February 28th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Mark Stone, I hope you return to this sight and read this because it may never happen again!
I have known Mark for about 8 years now, and I have to say that I think he is a fine person who tries to do the right thing (except when he and Albert bounce against my door every time they pass it in the hallway!)
Mark is a man who has a passion for his music. I don't think he takes over when he plays with melody players, on the contrary, his job is to make them sound better, to complement their style and to blend the music into something more than what it would be without his expertise on the bódhran. He's not a show-off.
I believe he is very talented and not at all self-centered. He loves kids and students and genuinely wants to further their knowledge and musicianship on the bódhran.
One of the most fun times I heard Mark play was in West Virginia. He played a solo of "When the Saints Go Marching In" on the bódhran. I didn't even know that was possible! And being that it is my Alma Mater's basketball team's theme every time they take the court, I liked it even better.
He never taught me much music, but I now understand the Tour de France ! How many afternoons did he spend with me sitting on the floor in front of his tv set asking him about a zillion questons about The Tour? He answered my questions--often the same ones over and over again---everyone of them without getting ugly or annoyed.
He's just a good guy with a big heart and a God-given talent who works hard at everything he does.
Anyway, you owe me Mark!!!! This was worth about a bunch of bananas. I think lunch at Weber's in a few weeks is very appropriate! Oh, on you of course!!! tee-hee : )
mk (NOT mc)
email me: mk and my last name @charter.net.
How is school going? I'm retiring this year---wa-hoo!!
and.... the band is going great now.
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by mkvictor
Re: Bodhran Workshop with Mark Stone
Oh, I hadn't realised until now.
If you guys had only put in some extra effort you could all have been fiddlers like me! That's such a sad waste of talent!
Oh I get it! You all with the critical comments must be uilleann pipers to a man, right?
# Posted on March 1st 2006 by Jay-eye