Eddie,
I'm not fully sure what you are asking for when you say "progressions". Do you mean generic chord progressions that can be generally applied to Irish tunes, or specific chords for specific tunes?
I think you could probably define a few lowest-common-denominator sets of progressions that could be applied to many Irish tunes, but nobody that knows anything about the music does that. You can also find sheet music that has chords for given tunes. But because of the nature of this music, there is no ONE set of chords for *any* tune. We are not talking about standard chord substitutions here either.
For instance, the first four bars of the B part of Swallowtail Jig can be played with these chords:
| Em . | Em . | Em . | Em D|
But when I play it, I use:
| Em . | Em . | Em A | A Em7|
( actually I use E(modal) rather than Em )
So I substitute a A(modal) for Em and a Em7 for Dmaj. That works for Swallowtail Jig, but may not work in another similar tune. It's one of the wonderful things about Irish.
If you use generic and common chord progessions, you will sound like a generic and common accompanist. You'll also be missing out on the richness of the music. Look toward the Chris Smith and Frank Kilkelly books mentioned above to learn how to construct you own accompaniments.
I know some great chord progressions, but you couldn't play ( an irish ) tune to them.
Every tune is different. You have to tune your ear, and then it's still a matter of opinion.
Here's important tip to building your own sets of chords. Learn the tune first. Learn to sing it in your head and learn to play the melody on your instrument. It doesn't have to be up to performance speed, but it needs to be fully in your head.
I used to argue with a guitar player friend of mine about this. He would listen to a new tune and begin working out chords before it even reached the end of the first rep. He said he didn't need to learn the tune. He's musically smart and his chords worked. SO ... he calls me up a few weeks ago to gallently tell me that he had now started to learn the melodies first, and that his chords and chord shapes were much better for it.
OK. Now that I've lectured you (twice), I'll give you two tune web sites that include chord names with the tunes. BUT - - - these should be used as a starting point for your work.
Here are a few very basic tips on working out chords.
Wow! There's been a lot of useful information presented tonight. I haven't seen the Frank Kilkelly book, but I can recommend the Chris Smith book. Craymola's comment about really studying it applies though; you can't just read through it once. Chris also has a bunch of information posted on the web where he expands on some of the material in the book:
A lot of good postings on this thread so far. A lot about each tune having its own progression, and even that being a matter of taste etc. I don't know Chris Smith, or his book, but I'm not sure about putting studying the book before listening? But I'm splitting hairs here. Generally, the advice is good.
The basic point that if you are looking for chord progressions you like, and then try to fit them in to this music, you've missed it completely.
(But, tomw? I understand and agree that playing tunes with a strummer who "has" the rhythm but gets the odd "bum" chord or even just plays the same chord over and over is much better that some fancy eedjit with his degree in harmony but plays like a sequencer. However, I don't like to separate rhythm from melody from harmony. Each is integral and part of the same stem)
What MG sed: Learn the tunes.
Dr Smith even sez in the book that he expects you to learn the tunes as well as the chords and sets up exercises to facilitate that. Most of the chapters are about learning to play by ear. There is also a CD with 90 something sound examples.
Eddie I apologize for all the bashing it appears you have taken for your question. But, for many of us that do not play guitar or accordian, or for that matter even mandolin, chords and progressions were never thought to be needed. You see I play violin and have since a child, and at age 45 good hit in the face with the need to now chords. With violin we typically rely on scale theory, and scale progression. If classically taught we were trained to look at the key signature, then play the notes, dot for dot. Now, and especially with traditional music, including jazz violin becoming popular, I ventured into these generes. My goal was to learn Jazz or Swing violin and then use the C(K)eltic rolls and ornaments to increase the action and entertainment of songs and musical statements. I first two books, one on jazz violin, and one by Jamie Abersole on improvisation for C instruments. The book of violin presumed I new chord theory. And, presumed I new the six or seven types of scales, i.e. ionian, phygrian, pentonic, mixolodian, heck I did not want to learn another foreign language, and look at the cover to see if I have purchased the wrong book. Then I opened the Abersole book and the world was opened up to me about chords. Get this, and don't laugh, did you know that arrpegios on a violin were chords played one note at a time. Thats news to many long time playing violin players. But often in a session or group, lately they will just tell you the chord progression, and either provide you with a few lines of the melody statement and then blank staff lines with chords above the first. You are expected to develop your solo part by using the notes in the chord key to effect a harmonic statement of the song. And to make it worse, they have rules. imagine a red headed scot irishman following rules. One for instance is you can play any note in the chord for thay key that restates the melody but you must resolve on the fifth if it is perfect, unless it is a diminished chord and then the fourth is perfect and it is that not you must resolve on. In other words take a trip on any major interstate or whatever they are called in europe, in any manner you want as long as you stay on that interstate and exit at the same place you entered. Now that sounded like math which is why I only took the required three hours in college and avoided any major requiring more. So I hear your need beneath your question. In the states they is now about 30 volumes of books written by Jamie Abersole and sold by Mel Bay that cover every instrument and need that you might have about chords and chord progression. They start will the basis and go to what looks like nuclear physics to me. But they are inexpensive and the first two or three and you will get it. What you will ultimately find out is that your are the boss, and you build the chord progressions. Which is the hardest part of the whole thing because you have to follow those darn rules. Now with guitars, most first learn chords, then to play melody they discover or, are shown how to arpeggio chords to come up with melody statements. But for fiddle players it sounded ridiculous when someone talked about how the song is played in a E D G chord progession. But I am learning and still dream of finding the magic transcriptions that do it for me. I feel your pain but one day both of us will be liberated.
sorry to say this, but forget the so called 'normal' tuning and tune your yoke to CGCGCD, then play out the ''harmonics'' on it ( _ask someone who lives near you to show you) and expand your head into another direction with irish trad _it can be done
and trust me _it's all down to the attitude in your own head, but the humble guitar will reward you if you can 'hear' what it's telling you
chord progressions
chord progressions
hi
does any of you peaple play trad with just normal tuning and do you know any sites where i can find some nice progressions on the net ?
eddie
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by eddie-mclroy
Re: chord progressions
"progressions on the net?" Hey Eddie, these guys are progressing from right to left on the net:
http://www.hkadc.org.hk/mae/bus.php?L=en&A=9&W=16
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: chord progressions
bizarre . . .
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by lisaniska
Re: chord progressions
Hey Mr.Patarm havent you got a session to go to? You've been posting on this site all day.
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by Newty
Re: chord progressions
I don't know of anything on the net but you might take a look at Frank Kilkelly's or Chris Smith's books on accompanying irish music.
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by Cuso
Re: chord progressions
Eddie,
I'm not fully sure what you are asking for when you say "progressions". Do you mean generic chord progressions that can be generally applied to Irish tunes, or specific chords for specific tunes?
I think you could probably define a few lowest-common-denominator sets of progressions that could be applied to many Irish tunes, but nobody that knows anything about the music does that. You can also find sheet music that has chords for given tunes. But because of the nature of this music, there is no ONE set of chords for *any* tune. We are not talking about standard chord substitutions here either.
For instance, the first four bars of the B part of Swallowtail Jig can be played with these chords:
| Em . | Em . | Em . | Em D|
But when I play it, I use:
| Em . | Em . | Em A | A Em7|
( actually I use E(modal) rather than Em )
So I substitute a A(modal) for Em and a Em7 for Dmaj. That works for Swallowtail Jig, but may not work in another similar tune. It's one of the wonderful things about Irish.
If you use generic and common chord progessions, you will sound like a generic and common accompanist. You'll also be missing out on the richness of the music. Look toward the Chris Smith and Frank Kilkelly books mentioned above to learn how to construct you own accompaniments.
http://www.melbay.com/product.asp?ProductID=97205BCD
http://www.irishguitar.net/
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Craymcla
Re: chord progressions
I know some great chord progressions, but you couldn't play ( an irish ) tune to them.
Every tune is different. You have to tune your ear, and then it's still a matter of opinion.
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: chord progressions
Hey Mr. Newt havent you got a session to go to? You've been reading my postings on this site - all day.
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: chord progressions
Here's important tip to building your own sets of chords. Learn the tune first. Learn to sing it in your head and learn to play the melody on your instrument. It doesn't have to be up to performance speed, but it needs to be fully in your head.
I used to argue with a guitar player friend of mine about this. He would listen to a new tune and begin working out chords before it even reached the end of the first rep. He said he didn't need to learn the tune. He's musically smart and his chords worked. SO ... he calls me up a few weeks ago to gallently tell me that he had now started to learn the melodies first, and that his chords and chord shapes were much better for it.
Live and learn.
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Craymcla
Re: chord progressions
OK. Now that I've lectured you (twice), I'll give you two tune web sites that include chord names with the tunes. BUT - - - these should be used as a starting point for your work.
Here are a few very basic tips on working out chords.
1. Get Chris Smith's book and STUDY it.
2. LISTEN to the music
3. Determine which key AND MODE the tune is in. See this earlier discussion: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/9239
4. Figure out which major and minor chords belong to that mode, which chords can be built out of the notes of the mode.
5. For a particular note in the melody that feels like it might like a chord change, try chords with that note it them and use whatever sounds best.
6. LISTEN to the music.
7. Reread Chris Smith's book.
Good luck.
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Craymcla
Re: chord progressions
Oops. Here are the web sites:
http://www.slowplayers.org/Slowplayers_Music_List.html
http://www.thursdaycontra.com/~spuds/TuneLinks.html
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Craymcla
Re: chord progressions
OK - all you smart Guitar Bashers - can you name this legend of the six strings & tell us which complicated chord he is playing?
http://talkleft.com/new_archives/012058.html
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: chord progressions
That's a Gmaj. Of course, you have to know that he's using that super secret Texan tuning EbAbDGBEb. Bar chords are a bitch though.
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Craymcla
Re: chord progressions
Hahahaha yeah, either that he needs to look at what his left hand's doing so he can play the G shape on the right frets! What a nipple...
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Dow
Re: chord progressions
Wow! There's been a lot of useful information presented tonight. I haven't seen the Frank Kilkelly book, but I can recommend the Chris Smith book. Craymola's comment about really studying it applies though; you can't just read through it once. Chris also has a bunch of information posted on the web where he expands on some of the material in the book:
http://coyotebanjo.com/home.html
IMHO, getting the rhythm right is more important than playing a bunch of fancy chords.
I hope that this helps. Have fun.
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by tomw
Re: chord progressions
Yehoooo- a recomendation for understanding MODES. I knew there was something in it!!
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Newty
Re: chord progressions
It brings a new meaning to the term progressive trad or as i like to call it bog prog music
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Ripthecalico
Re: chord progressions
A lot of good postings on this thread so far. A lot about each tune having its own progression, and even that being a matter of taste etc. I don't know Chris Smith, or his book, but I'm not sure about putting studying the book before listening? But I'm splitting hairs here. Generally, the advice is good.
The basic point that if you are looking for chord progressions you like, and then try to fit them in to this music, you've missed it completely.
(But, tomw? I understand and agree that playing tunes with a strummer who "has" the rhythm but gets the odd "bum" chord or even just plays the same chord over and over is much better that some fancy eedjit with his degree in harmony but plays like a sequencer. However, I don't like to separate rhythm from melody from harmony. Each is integral and part of the same stem)
# Posted on February 21st 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: chord progressions
What MG sed: Learn the tunes.
Dr Smith even sez in the book that he expects you to learn the tunes as well as the chords and sets up exercises to facilitate that. Most of the chapters are about learning to play by ear. There is also a CD with 90 something sound examples.
Still, learn the tunes. The rest will follow
# Posted on February 21st 2006 by Owell Mabee
Re: chord progressions
Eddie I apologize for all the bashing it appears you have taken for your question. But, for many of us that do not play guitar or accordian, or for that matter even mandolin, chords and progressions were never thought to be needed. You see I play violin and have since a child, and at age 45 good hit in the face with the need to now chords. With violin we typically rely on scale theory, and scale progression. If classically taught we were trained to look at the key signature, then play the notes, dot for dot. Now, and especially with traditional music, including jazz violin becoming popular, I ventured into these generes. My goal was to learn Jazz or Swing violin and then use the C(K)eltic rolls and ornaments to increase the action and entertainment of songs and musical statements. I first two books, one on jazz violin, and one by Jamie Abersole on improvisation for C instruments. The book of violin presumed I new chord theory. And, presumed I new the six or seven types of scales, i.e. ionian, phygrian, pentonic, mixolodian, heck I did not want to learn another foreign language, and look at the cover to see if I have purchased the wrong book. Then I opened the Abersole book and the world was opened up to me about chords. Get this, and don't laugh, did you know that arrpegios on a violin were chords played one note at a time. Thats news to many long time playing violin players. But often in a session or group, lately they will just tell you the chord progression, and either provide you with a few lines of the melody statement and then blank staff lines with chords above the first. You are expected to develop your solo part by using the notes in the chord key to effect a harmonic statement of the song. And to make it worse, they have rules. imagine a red headed scot irishman following rules. One for instance is you can play any note in the chord for thay key that restates the melody but you must resolve on the fifth if it is perfect, unless it is a diminished chord and then the fourth is perfect and it is that not you must resolve on. In other words take a trip on any major interstate or whatever they are called in europe, in any manner you want as long as you stay on that interstate and exit at the same place you entered. Now that sounded like math which is why I only took the required three hours in college and avoided any major requiring more. So I hear your need beneath your question. In the states they is now about 30 volumes of books written by Jamie Abersole and sold by Mel Bay that cover every instrument and need that you might have about chords and chord progression. They start will the basis and go to what looks like nuclear physics to me. But they are inexpensive and the first two or three and you will get it. What you will ultimately find out is that your are the boss, and you build the chord progressions. Which is the hardest part of the whole thing because you have to follow those darn rules. Now with guitars, most first learn chords, then to play melody they discover or, are shown how to arpeggio chords to come up with melody statements. But for fiddle players it sounded ridiculous when someone talked about how the song is played in a E D G chord progession. But I am learning and still dream of finding the magic transcriptions that do it for me. I feel your pain but one day both of us will be liberated.
# Posted on February 26th 2006 by texross
Re: chord progressions
eddie
sorry to say this, but forget the so called 'normal' tuning and tune your yoke to CGCGCD, then play out the ''harmonics'' on it ( _ask someone who lives near you to show you) and expand your head into another direction with irish trad _it can be done
and trust me _it's all down to the attitude in your own head, but the humble guitar will reward you if you can 'hear' what it's telling you
john
# Posted on April 29th 2006 by lisaniska