Can anybody explain (with examples please) the meaning of Dorian, mixolydian etc and any other modes (if that is what they are) used in ITM. Also, which notes of a scale do you change to convert a minor tune into a major one, and the other way?
I never saw the need for if to be honest, just an added complication. D dorian is the key of C maor starting and ending the scale on the note D, G mixolydian is the key of C major starting and ending on the note G. I suppose it might be useful if you are a backer but I doubt it. A lot of the older musicians around these parts wouldn't know what key they are playing in at all, they play what they hear. Personally I think the theory just gets you tangled up in mess. I went down that road years ago and its just the bog road, best to just play what you hear and make much faster progress.
Well Bernie,my curiosity was aroused partly because all tunes submitted on this site have a mode tagged on the end of the key. Also, I hear many people at sessions describing the key of a tune as "dunno-its sort of modaly"and wondered what they meant. I have heard gutarists say they are not too keen on dadgad because of its modal sound and a lack of strong minor sounding chords-but to my ears dadgad has a fantastic "moving quality" if that makes sense.
Just as I Ithought Michael, a little music theory does no harm.Anyway, I play banjo so it really was just curiosity rather than a thirst for encyclopedic musical knowledge.
Nigel, I see from your bio that you - "would love to emulate one or two techniques of Mr.O'Connors."
Can I recommend Angelina Carberry's playing?
A lovely tasteful player.
Not sure her gentle style would have won her many All Ireland titles, but I could be wrong.
I could listen to her playing all day long, but Mr Gerry O'Connor mostly gives me ear ache!
Yes Ptarmy, just one technique would be good. I dont want to be a Connor clone. I blush to admit that I dont have a clue who A C is but will look her up on your recomendation. Surely not ear ache-its just his take on ITM- very accomplished I would say , even if you dont really like it.
Quite correct Nigel. G O'C does have amazing technique, just not my favourite style of playing.
Reminds me of the final scene in Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid!
Bumped into him a few times in Dublin back around 1980 & he seemed a pretty decent bloke too.
Even threw a £1 in my case when he caught me busking with my banjo on Henry St. one time - probably out of pity though rather than being impressed!
On reflection Mr.Pt. I have tried a couple of crosspicky bits of my own contruction and feel they dont really fit in a sesh when everybody is playing "straight". Just listened to a couple of clips from Miss. Carberrys site and ordered 2 C.D.s. Thanks for the link. Wonder what her favourite mode is?
You telling me shes not good looking. Next step one to one lessons. Im sat here typing odd bits of junk with a Gold Tone around my neck and a diminishing supply of the black stuff. Its actually a very nice sounding banjo(flat head tone ring)considering its modern with bits that I think are imported from eastern climes. I would love to come over to Erin and try Tom Cussens banjos but they would have to be seriously good to make me part with this one(and short scale too).
Angelina don't look like that at the moment, she's got a belly out to here with wotsit's babie.
Anyone I claim to be the only contributor on this site to have got a big grin from Miss Angelina, my first day in the biz, working as an extra on "Tonb Raider II" !
You jealous now, chaps ?
You can't see me in the movie, but there were definitely other compensations.
D Major: D E F# G A B C# D
Flatten third, sixth and seventh:
D Minor: D E F G A Bb C D
Remember though a tune that starts in one key can change briefly to another eg Julia Delaney is in D Dorian D E F G A B C D but the C# may get played instead of C natural.
The only thing I'd add to that is to say that because you're using the same scale starting at different points, like BegF's Cmaj and Amin, it can sometimes be difficult to tell where your starting point is. Sometimes it's more obvious than others. Like if you get a tune with no sharps or flats that starts say |eAcA eAcA| then you're likely to be in Amin rather than C. At other times it's more ambiguous. That's where the fun comes in for a backer, who can choose chords that emphasize different parts of the scale and suggest one mode more strongly than another. On the other hand, I think part of the reason some people don't like backing might be that they prefer to have that ambiguity and not have harmonies spelt out for them. Hmm, maybe there's a whole 'nother thread's worth in that...
Anyway if you want a long thread, you have to choose a controversial topic. With threads about theory like this, the usual pattern is that the anoraks like me will write some stuff about modes or chord progressions, and then there'll usually be some po-faced, snobby, up-themselves spacktosses who'll go "who needs theory? Theory makes you a robot classical musician who automatically can never have a clue about tunes. I'm just so trad and so unbelievably cool I don't even need it because I can just do it naturally". Then there's usually a few people that go "no, surely a bit of theory can be helpful" etc etc, and then people eventually get bored of it and the thread dies.
Hey Dow, surely that's what makes this site so 'colourful'.
I say three cheers for all the "po-faced, snobby, up-themselves spacktossers" cause their comments, like most other folks, very often cheer me up.
I think it's great that we have all sorts here & rightly so because there's always more than one way to skin any Cat!
Isn't it great that one musician can sit down with another & share a tune where the one understands all the musical theory that goes along with that tune's construction, while the other musician understands none of it, but just simply likes the sound of the tune.
They are both right - for them.
Nobody is all right, nobody is all wrong.
It's a bit like that other thread next door about how to hold your Flute.
There is no absolute right way or wrong way, but there is very probably, a way that'll suit you better than another, so the trick is to find what suits you best.
Speaking of sitting on the fence, I see you guys have the World's longest fence - 'The Dingo Fence' which is somewhere out in the Radeka's Desert near the Oodnadatta road, I believe?
1. Taking longer to recover from that last session's hangover
2. Nervousness and irritability at the 'noodler'
3. Decrease or loss of sexual enjoyment - while playing ITM
4. Feeling that time is running out for that last nip & pint
5. Decreased memory and concentration - like, who did pay for those last drinks anyway?
6. Increased anxiety or fear at the thought of your next ITM CD failing
7. Feeling fat, gaining weight & finally not fitting through the pub door
8. Sleep disturbances during long sets of tunes
9. Indecisiveness - triplet or roll or just that nice loooong note
10. Loss of interest and self-confidence while playing ITM at the monthly session in the local nudist colony
Thanks are in order for BegF, I think he could have mention that modal is most often referred to when a pentonic scale is used. That meaning, instead of seven notes, a pentonic scale only uses five, which gives one more lead way into developing restatements of traditional songs. He mentioned how to transition from one to the other great. But know that ornamentation is exempt from the scale, as long as it is just that, ornamentation. And I will ask BegF if he agrees with me that in mixolodian to actually add an eighth not to the mix, with is a half step after each third. The hard part is when you come back down on a riff using the same scale you should use the same high note additons going backwards. This actually is the slides many of us fiddle players use. That is an example of staying within a scale and it is not ornamentation, in other words its on purpose. So we must be careful, because once a slide is played use must remember to use it in the same riff each time. For the hard nosed traditionalist that maintain old timers never use chord theory all I can say is to the contrary, yes they did, they just learned by ear. If playing in a session one instrument is takes a solo in Dorian, the other in Phygrian, and I don't think BegF confused you with that one, the other in Ionian and the flute player decides to use pentonic, the song will be an exhibition of note perfert playing possibly, but listeners will wonder just what song you were playing. And if it is only for backers, I wonder if the C flute chose to play a solo for the song and used Ionian, the C Fiddle player chose to use mixoldian....well just look at BegFs post and tell me how and what they would do to back them especially if it is a cut time reel or gig. Now have another beer and it will soon become more clear. Hey theres the bridge for a song.
Basic music theory
Basic music theory
Can anybody explain (with examples please) the meaning of Dorian, mixolydian etc and any other modes (if that is what they are) used in ITM. Also, which notes of a scale do you change to convert a minor tune into a major one, and the other way?
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by Newty
Re: Basic music theory
Tka a look at these discussions
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/index/search?name=modes
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by dafydd
Re: Basic music theory
http://www.slowplayers.org/SCTLS/modes.htm
That explains modes and was written by Will Harmon
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by kjay_bc_box
Re: Basic music theory
I found this very helpful:
http://www.geocities.com/novairishsession/modes/modes.htm
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by RichardB
Re: Basic music theory
I never saw the need for if to be honest, just an added complication. D dorian is the key of C maor starting and ending the scale on the note D, G mixolydian is the key of C major starting and ending on the note G. I suppose it might be useful if you are a backer but I doubt it. A lot of the older musicians around these parts wouldn't know what key they are playing in at all, they play what they hear. Personally I think the theory just gets you tangled up in mess. I went down that road years ago and its just the bog road, best to just play what you hear and make much faster progress.
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by Bernie
Re: Basic music theory
Well Bernie,my curiosity was aroused partly because all tunes submitted on this site have a mode tagged on the end of the key. Also, I hear many people at sessions describing the key of a tune as "dunno-its sort of modaly"and wondered what they meant. I have heard gutarists say they are not too keen on dadgad because of its modal sound and a lack of strong minor sounding chords-but to my ears dadgad has a fantastic "moving quality" if that makes sense.
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by Newty
Re: Basic music theory
Bernie, this developed into quite a good one:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/8231/
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Basic music theory
Just as I Ithought Michael, a little music theory does no harm.Anyway, I play banjo so it really was just curiosity rather than a thirst for encyclopedic musical knowledge.
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by Newty
Re: Basic music theory
Nigel, I see from your bio that you - "would love to emulate one or two techniques of Mr.O'Connors."
Can I recommend Angelina Carberry's playing?
A lovely tasteful player.
Not sure her gentle style would have won her many All Ireland titles, but I could be wrong.
I could listen to her playing all day long, but Mr Gerry O'Connor mostly gives me ear ache!
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Basic music theory
Yes Ptarmy, just one technique would be good. I dont want to be a Connor clone. I blush to admit that I dont have a clue who A C is but will look her up on your recomendation. Surely not ear ache-its just his take on ITM- very accomplished I would say , even if you dont really like it.
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by Newty
Re: Basic music theory
Quite correct Nigel. G O'C does have amazing technique, just not my favourite style of playing.
Reminds me of the final scene in Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid!
Bumped into him a few times in Dublin back around 1980 & he seemed a pretty decent bloke too.
Even threw a £1 in my case when he caught me busking with my banjo on Henry St. one time - probably out of pity though rather than being impressed!
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Basic music theory
On reflection Mr.Pt. I have tried a couple of crosspicky bits of my own contruction and feel they dont really fit in a sesh when everybody is playing "straight". Just listened to a couple of clips from Miss. Carberrys site and ordered 2 C.D.s. Thanks for the link. Wonder what her favourite mode is?
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by Newty
Re: Basic music theory
Money well spent Nigel. That little lady is a class act! You'll never look back now!
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Basic music theory
Class act maybe but good looking too. I bought the C.D.s hoping there will be some more pictures of her.
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by Newty
Re: Basic music theory
you perv!...............
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Basic music theory
Incidentally Nigel, what kinda Banjo do you play yourself?
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Basic music theory
OK Nigel, Since it's you. Here's a full frontal photo of Angelina, but you must promise not to let anyone else see it:
http://lorry.org/scrapbook/new/angelina-jolie1.jpg
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Basic music theory
You telling me shes not good looking. Next step one to one lessons. Im sat here typing odd bits of junk with a Gold Tone around my neck and a diminishing supply of the black stuff. Its actually a very nice sounding banjo(flat head tone ring)considering its modern with bits that I think are imported from eastern climes. I would love to come over to Erin and try Tom Cussens banjos but they would have to be seriously good to make me part with this one(and short scale too).
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by Newty
Re: Basic music theory
What instrument does she play and where is it?
# Posted on February 19th 2006 by Newty
Re: Basic music theory
Angelina don't look like that at the moment, she's got a belly out to here with wotsit's babie.
Anyone I claim to be the only contributor on this site to have got a big grin from Miss Angelina, my first day in the biz, working as an extra on "Tonb Raider II" !
You jealous now, chaps ?
You can't see me in the movie, but there were definitely other compensations.
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Basic music theory
Miz Carberry sounds good too.
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Basic music theory
Tomb Raider
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Basic music theory
The Meaning of Dorian, Mixolydian etc:
I’m going to use C Major as the starting point: C D E F G A B C
If you understand that A minor is the relative minor of C then you’re halfway there to understanding modes.
A minor uses the same notes but has a different starting point.
A minor then is: A B C D E F G A
In the same way D Dorian is the relative Dorian of C
D Dorian uses the same notes but has a different starting point
D Dorian then is: D E F G A B C D
In the same way G is the relative mixolydian of C
G Mix then is G A B C D E F G
So from C, the dorian mode starts from the second note, Mixoldyian the 5th note, minor from the sixth note.
The tonic is different and the intervals between notes has shifted giving the mode it’s
individual sound.
That’s one way of viewing it and of understanding it – using the “relative to” another mode scenario but different tonics.
Another would be to look at the intervals and compare to other modes but SAME tonic.
Lets take D Major.
D Major: D E F# G A B C# D
D Mix: D E F# G A B C D (Flattened seventh)
D Dorian: D E F G A B C D (Flattened third and seventh)
D Minor: D E F G A Bb C D (Flattened third, sixth and seventh)
Hope this helps.
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by BegF
Re: Basic music theory
Cheers BegF. Slowly but surely the mist is lifting.
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Newty
Re: Basic music theory
So BegF, does that mean to change a major to a minor you simply flatten the3/6/7 notes? No exceptions or nasty suprises?
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Newty
Re: Basic music theory
Yes.
D Major: D E F# G A B C# D
Flatten third, sixth and seventh:
D Minor: D E F G A Bb C D
Remember though a tune that starts in one key can change briefly to another eg Julia Delaney is in D Dorian D E F G A B C D but the C# may get played instead of C natural.
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by BegF
Re: Basic music theory
Understood ta. I often practice by making up tunes as I go so now I can switch modes to alter the flavour at will. What joy!
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Newty
Re: Basic music theory
The only thing I'd add to that is to say that because you're using the same scale starting at different points, like BegF's Cmaj and Amin, it can sometimes be difficult to tell where your starting point is. Sometimes it's more obvious than others. Like if you get a tune with no sharps or flats that starts say |eAcA eAcA| then you're likely to be in Amin rather than C. At other times it's more ambiguous. That's where the fun comes in for a backer, who can choose chords that emphasize different parts of the scale and suggest one mode more strongly than another. On the other hand, I think part of the reason some people don't like backing might be that they prefer to have that ambiguity and not have harmonies spelt out for them. Hmm, maybe there's a whole 'nother thread's worth in that...
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Dow
Re: Basic music theory
Another thread!! No, please continue on this one - I want the record for the longest.
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Newty
Re: Basic music theory
You've got a long way to go yet then. I think the record's well over 400.
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Dow
Re: Basic music theory
Anyway if you want a long thread, you have to choose a controversial topic. With threads about theory like this, the usual pattern is that the anoraks like me will write some stuff about modes or chord progressions, and then there'll usually be some po-faced, snobby, up-themselves spacktosses who'll go "who needs theory? Theory makes you a robot classical musician who automatically can never have a clue about tunes. I'm just so trad and so unbelievably cool I don't even need it because I can just do it naturally". Then there's usually a few people that go "no, surely a bit of theory can be helpful" etc etc, and then people eventually get bored of it and the thread dies.
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Dow
Re: Basic music theory
O
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Newty
Re: Basic music theory
Controversial ?
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Newty
Re: Basic music theory
I reckon ole Ptarmy could stir it up when he gets back from work.
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Newty
Re: Basic music theory
Hey Dow, surely that's what makes this site so 'colourful'.
I say three cheers for all the "po-faced, snobby, up-themselves spacktossers" cause their comments, like most other folks, very often cheer me up.
I think it's great that we have all sorts here & rightly so because there's always more than one way to skin any Cat!
Isn't it great that one musician can sit down with another & share a tune where the one understands all the musical theory that goes along with that tune's construction, while the other musician understands none of it, but just simply likes the sound of the tune.
They are both right - for them.
Nobody is all right, nobody is all wrong.
It's a bit like that other thread next door about how to hold your Flute.
There is no absolute right way or wrong way, but there is very probably, a way that'll suit you better than another, so the trick is to find what suits you best.
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Basic music theory
Speaking of sitting on the fence, I see you guys have the World's longest fence - 'The Dingo Fence' which is somewhere out in the Radeka's Desert near the Oodnadatta road, I believe?
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Basic music theory
What do you mean 'ole' Ptarmy Nigel? ...an me in the first flush of youth......................
OK then, the first flush of the 'male' menopause!
Yeah, that made all you young guys sit up & pay attention, didn't it? Check it out:
http://www.menweb.org/menopaus.htm
Here are the first ten warning signs:
1. Taking longer to recover from that last session's hangover
2. Nervousness and irritability at the 'noodler'
3. Decrease or loss of sexual enjoyment - while playing ITM
4. Feeling that time is running out for that last nip & pint
5. Decreased memory and concentration - like, who did pay for those last drinks anyway?
6. Increased anxiety or fear at the thought of your next ITM CD failing
7. Feeling fat, gaining weight & finally not fitting through the pub door
8. Sleep disturbances during long sets of tunes
9. Indecisiveness - triplet or roll or just that nice loooong note
10. Loss of interest and self-confidence while playing ITM at the monthly session in the local nudist colony
# Posted on February 20th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Basic music theory
Thanks are in order for BegF, I think he could have mention that modal is most often referred to when a pentonic scale is used. That meaning, instead of seven notes, a pentonic scale only uses five, which gives one more lead way into developing restatements of traditional songs. He mentioned how to transition from one to the other great. But know that ornamentation is exempt from the scale, as long as it is just that, ornamentation. And I will ask BegF if he agrees with me that in mixolodian to actually add an eighth not to the mix, with is a half step after each third. The hard part is when you come back down on a riff using the same scale you should use the same high note additons going backwards. This actually is the slides many of us fiddle players use. That is an example of staying within a scale and it is not ornamentation, in other words its on purpose. So we must be careful, because once a slide is played use must remember to use it in the same riff each time. For the hard nosed traditionalist that maintain old timers never use chord theory all I can say is to the contrary, yes they did, they just learned by ear. If playing in a session one instrument is takes a solo in Dorian, the other in Phygrian, and I don't think BegF confused you with that one, the other in Ionian and the flute player decides to use pentonic, the song will be an exhibition of note perfert playing possibly, but listeners will wonder just what song you were playing. And if it is only for backers, I wonder if the C flute chose to play a solo for the song and used Ionian, the C Fiddle player chose to use mixoldian....well just look at BegFs post and tell me how and what they would do to back them especially if it is a cut time reel or gig. Now have another beer and it will soon become more clear. Hey theres the bridge for a song.
# Posted on February 26th 2006 by texross