The listening v playing thread went off at a bit of a tangent, I thought I'd resurrect it. It was a good one ...
There was an interesting anecdote about Kevin Burke doing a solo gig and none of the local musicians turning up ...
It's because the music is about playing. It's about the abstract nature of what it does to the inside of your head while you create these vibrations in air molecules. And about how these vibrations are shared with your fellow creators in a glorious feedback loop. Yes, it had its origins in dance music, but it has become much more insular
Kevin Burke himself mentioned on a record sleeve about not forgetting how the music was played for the sheer enjoyment of the player. And though I'm not knocking the man, he's a terrific player and obviously plays with a great amount of enjoyment, bearing this in mind, it should be no surprise to him that his gigs are poorly attended.
I feel sorry for those who simply like to listen to this music. It's nothing more than voyeuristic. They should go and listen to some mozart and get their brains taxed.
And this whole theory explains a lot of things about the music in general:
It explains the desire of non musicians to want to join in by banging a frame drum.
It explains the oft heard complaint of "why brake neck reel after reel after reel?" Because they're great fun to play
It explains the oft heard complaint of "it all sounds the same." Because when you are playing it, it doesn't.
It explains why even the most popular of players hardly sell any records. It's because the much maligned populace knows that it's crap to just listen too
Michael, you're the one who is always saying "Listen, listen, listen". So, surely to be a good player you have to be a good listener too?
I see your point, though. It's not the kind of music you just want to go and listen to, if you are not a player(or aspiring player) yourself. To a non player, it does all sound the same so I'm not sure what they're getting from it.
Having said that, I tend to be quite selective in what I choose to go to hear though I'm exposed to quite a lot of stuff regardless.
It explains this exerpt from my bio (apart from the tattoo)
"I very rarely listen to recorded music (most often to learn from), and the last live act I saw was Kathryn Tickell about 12 years back, in Leek. That's when we saw her tattoo.
I believe that music is something we should do with each other, not something we do to each other."
John - when Michael says "Listen listen listen" - he is saying "listen to how it works (if you want to play it yourself)" - that's different from "listen for entertainment".
Yes, I know what he means and I don't disagree. That's not to say that I go to concerts just "to pick up tips". Obviously, I find these entertaining too.
Also, when I'm in a session, I *don't* want to be entertained and listening there certainly means something different from going to a concert.
You've changed your bio slightly since I last looked but I still agree with the statement "I believe music is something we should do with each other, not something we do to each other". However, I took it that you were referring to a session situation(where I would fully agree with that philosophy) rather than a concert.
You are both right, of course. If I didn't play(or try to ) this kind of music, I wouldn't have much interest in it at all and would consider going to concerts and listening to recordings fairly pointless.
I happen to believe that Irish music is more than just an arcane form of communication between those 'in the know'. It shouldn't (though it all to frequently is) be the musical equivalent of a bunch of schoolboys sniggering to themselves over obscure references to Ron Knee and Neasden Football Team (There, that dates me - and probably completely mystifies anyone who didn't read Private Eye as a schoolchild).
Irish music is beautiful, stirring, and exciting. If you can't sustain and convey that excitement over an endless set of reels, maybe that's not the way you should be playing it(?)
If I'm right in my interpretation of Michael's comments, he's saying it's too simple (crap, as he puts it) to hold the general public's attention. Hearing, as I do occasionally, the sort of music that sells in mega-units to this same public (And no, they aren't listening to Mozart, Michael), I am puzzled by this assertion.
There is a general truth beneath Michael's argument - that people AREN'T interested in listening to Irish music, but it's because they don't know how to listen to any music. Musicians, whether they are Classical, Rock, Reggae, Jazz, or play some other folk music, are, in my experience, very receptive to Irish music. Most other people have been so conditioned to the commercial/tribal music market that music without vocals/compression/drums and bass/'attitude' that any 'real' music just doesn't compute.
Mark
"You've changed your bio slightly since I last looked" - yeah, I got older.
"I believe music is something we should do with each other, not something we do to each other" - yes John, I am referring to sessions there, rather than concerts. If anyone wants to go to a concert, I'm quite happy for them to go - (but I may choose not to go myself).
As for the old "boring sets of reels" thing. That varies a lot. Sometimes the lads at our session play a set of reels that really lifts the spirits, and another time you just find yourself hoping they don't add yet another on the end of this one, because you're losing the will to live. I think that can vary both with the particular set played, and with one's own mood. Too many variables to pin it down.
I listened to this music for some years - almost always when driving - before I started playing anything. It's since I started playing that I scarcely listen to recorded music except for the purpose of learning a tune.
Is it me, or is there a large wave of slow-time crossing the country today? It's only half past eleven, but it feels like it shoule be about wednesday evening. (It hasn't helped that this dip into my bio has brought back seeing Kathryn Tickells tattoo).
Mark, you miss a point about pop "music". You speak of those who are "conditioned to the commercial/tribal music market, the sort of music that sells in mega-units". And you say that "they don't know how to listen to any music". You are right, of course, but you fail to make the connection that this "mega-unit" stuff is not music at all. It's merely fashion and entertainment.
However, I'm still very glad that Mozart continues to sell in considerable, if not mega units. And this is the considerable, if not mega, populace I was referring too, the ones who do get genuine enjoyment out of listening to music, not the eedjits who do not know how. I hope my assertion is un puzzled.
And crap to listen too, does not mean simple. I mean it just doesn't hold aural attention. The tunes are very short, much shorter than any other music I can think of. The "decoration" and "variation" (same thing in my book), when used well mixes up the tunes anyway, and is baffling to the ear. And the range, both in pitch and dynamics is constrictingly tight. The notes out of the twelve available are almost always the same, though the tonal centers of the tunes vary quite a lot. This has the effect, over a set of tunes, of never resolving in the standard sense.
Much of the music has a general feeling of a wall of sound, there are few, if any breaks, and this is not pleasant unless you can decode it. I disagree that, "Musicians, whether they are Classical, Rock, Reggae, Jazz, or play some other folk music, are very receptive to Irish music." Most say they are either out of politeness or misunderstanding.
I was introduced to this trumpet player once by some jazzer mates who were saying, "oh you must meet So & So, he loves Matt Molloy and he plays reels on the trumpet just like Matt, he's brilliant." And sure enough, the bloke didn't half have an incredible technique. But, you've guessed it, it was hopeless. But could I say that? All I said was "huh, yes, very good."
But don't get me wrong, I'm not a bleeding heart saying that the reason no-one listens to it is just because no-one understands it. There is more to it than that. You can get a great deal out of many many forms of art without formally understanding them. It's just that diddley music doesn't have the breadth of expression to encompass much more than the the players own enjoyment of it. That's all.
Mozart's stuff bores me stupid. It's so harmonically perfect and balanced it doesn't challenge my ear enough. I bet he was a right insufferable little sh*t as a child too. Oo I'm awful aren't I.
I like Eine kleine Nachtmusik but only because it reminds me of first school assemblies - our headteacher used to play it on a record player and when I was in the top year group at 9 years old I sometimes had to be the one to lower the needle onto the record and do a fade out while all the kids filed out to class, but mind I'd probably be bored by that too were it not for the memories it brings back. Anyway I didn't even like school.
LOL I was alright till I got to the upper years of high school and then I became an insufferable little sh*t, not wearing my uniform properly and disrupting class and being sent to the deputy head and back again, only to do some more disrupting from outside the classroom door. I used to bully kids but only kids who were older than me and who bullied me before I grew tall enough to intimidate them back I was nice to the teachers who taught me tunes.
Just one point Michael (I've got to get SOME work done - yawn) - My comments about other musicians is, I admit purely anecdotal - it was based upon my personal experience, yours may differ(!) For example If I look at the local youth here in our village - those who are musicians (Most of them are mostly interested in the Jazzy end of Ska, if that makes sense), will happily sit and listen at a session. They won't give it their full attention, but I do watch them and their feet will be tapping, and they will perk up and listen properly if they hear something interesting happening. To a man, the one's who don't make music themselves will NOT sit and listen at a session, they will bugger off somewhere else pretty sharply.....
Maybe there is an element of musicians pretending to like other peoples music stuff out of politeness, but we get so much of that within the session world itself, that I'm pretty attuned to it and good at picking that particular vibe up I think..
p.s. That wasn't you in the photo of Sandy bells in last weeks Observer's rather trite artical about 'where to go to hear folk music', was it?
I've said this before, but I feel it welling up in me again.
I used to listen to a lot of classical music - mainly symphonies. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say I used to listen to classical music a lot.
But nowadays I can't hear the tune. Perhaps the structure is too big for me to hear, or perhaps it is non-existent. (maybe it is both of these at one time or another.)
This subject also brings up something thats been on my mind the past few days. We've agreed to play for a dance, and they will have us on in two slots, and a DJ on in two slots. I'm not sure who gets slots 1 and 3, and who gets 2 and 4. I do know one thing for sure - a guy who only puts CDs of "pop" in and out of slots had better be very careful what he says when he follows us, or hands over to us.
Or am I being touchy and looking for trouble in advance?
A thumb is always necessary for playing the hole at the back of the pipe and also to help in gripping the instrument so being a Nothumbrian piper not to be recommended.
I agree with Michael in as much as there are musicians (and some of them good ones too) who will play a few hackneyed old Irish traditional tunes from dots without any understanding and think they can play Irish music. They are not prepared to go any deeper than that, not to listen for beautiful tunes that feed the soul, because to go deeper would require them to give up their notion of The Music as simple crap, unworthy of their time and committment.
As for listening, I love listening to jigs and reels and stuff when travelling, also at concerts when anyone happens to gig here from out of town (a very rare occurence) and to discover and learn a few tunes (having only recently discovered the Windows Media Player slow downer).
I don't have any sessions to go to, but I do play along with CD's tapes etc. and would heaps prefer to play The Beautiful Tunes than go listen to other people playing other stuff. If there was more opportunity to play the music I love to play here, I would be more inclined to go listen to other musicians, but given the circumstances the opportunities are all listening opportunities and quite frankly why should I listen to others play music that is not exactly my cup of tea (no matter how good musicians they are). If that makes any sense.
You have to listen to it to play it, but I recon The Music is for the playing, otherwise what's the use of playing it?
Of course, if the likes of Kevin Burke, Martin Hayes, Tommy Peoples, or some such legendary fiddleplayers including some of your good selves, turned up in this town, I'd be in the front row, buy your CD's and be very prepared to really listen.
Showadd, that's interesting, cause I only listen to Classical Music on my car radio!
One of the major reasons for enjoying it is because there 'isn't' a strong melody a lot of the time & there isn't a constant 'headbanging' 4/4 or 6/8 rhythm.
As for just going to a session & just listening - I don't think I could be bothered, & certainly not if it was one of those mind-numbingly boring, wall to wall 4/4 jobs.
I do enjoy ripping through a few sets of reels myself, but let's face it, you CAN get too much of a good thing & some folks just don't know when to stop & anyway, variety is the spice of life ......what's that you say .....too many cliches...OK ...sorry!
There are a number of non-players who come along regularly to listen to our sessions & they do genuinly enjoy themselves. I would say it was possible that they just came along to enjoy the atmosphere & chat except for the fact that they also pay good money to go to loads of trad concerts. So I must accept that they really do simply enjoy listening to trad.
I like playing a wide variety of rhythms at a session & I'm sure if I was just listening, I would far rather hear variety too.
I know most session musicians don't give a fig for the folks who are listening, but in the back of my mind, I do feel I owe it to the bar owner who is paying me & throwing pints at us, to at least make some attempt to amuse the punters - as long as I am amusing myself at the same time!
I came into this music through attending Dubliners & Corries concerts in the early 70s, & if I didn't play now, I know I'd be attending concerts by groups who provided a lovely mix of songs, slow tunes, fast tunes & would never go near a concert which just offered me frantic, neck-breaking reels all night - can there be anything more boring to LISTEN to?
I enjoy playing and dancing and listening, participating in music in any way I can get it.
I also have noticed that many local musicians do not attend concerts locally. In some cases, it is money (What do you call a guitarist with no girlfriend? Homeless.). In some cases, I think it is ego, there are some musicians that thrive on being the center of attention, and you can't be that at a concert. In other cases, it is as you describe, the music is not as much fun if you don't join in.
This music is ideally suited toward participation and dancing, but I wouldn't put any negative spin on those facts, they are its strengths. To call listening to it "vouyeuristic" is going a step too far (unless you want to ignite a long thread on the yellow board, that is).
If simply listening to Kevin Burke is vouyeristic, then I'm sure he wants me peeping in the window... and that makes me an' him a good match. So thanks to Kevin for not clouding up his beautiful sound with other crap. It allows me to be at one with his violin right along side him. So for those intimate moments with Kevin, I'm happy he's on his own... on that limb.
Also... has Kevin Burke ever comlained publicly about not having well attended concerts? Seems...maybe... he doesn't give a rats ars.
So bb, you agree with me then. You listen to the music to motivate you to play, not for the abstract pleasure of just listening
And is listening to Kevin Burke voyeuristic? I think my original use of the phrase was referring to sessions, but it's an interesting point. Mr Burke obviously likes to play just for himself and expounds the music as being at its best when this is the case. But he's a professional gigging musician and so has forced himself to deal with this dichotomy. And as a punter at his concert, you must deal with this dichotomy also
I listen to music to motivate me and sometimes I listen just for the abstract pleasure of just listening.
I'm sure that Schumann and his Davidsbund would come march down on me as a Phillistine but the truth is that sometimes I get tired of listening to 'high' music like Mozart, Brahms, Schumann, Chopin and the list goes on.
On the other hand I can listen to Irish music (or any other kind of traditional American/English folk music) for hours on end just for the sake of listening to it. Concerts always motivate me to play which is why I tend to take instruments with me so that I can play afterwords but I can listen to cds without always feeling the motivation to play. I can distinguish between the music (it doesn't all sound alike) but I don't listen just to learn new tunes or to deliberately distinguish between tunes.
So, I listen for pleasure and I can listen to classical music for decent periods as long as it isn't all one composer. But Irish music I can listen to for unlimited amounts of time without any restrictions or anything.
My commute to work is two hours, round trip, and I mostly listen to classical music from the public stations or to audio books or courses. I generally don’t listen to session-type tunes unless I’m aiming to learn them or sort of studying somebody’s technique or style. Or if it’s a new (to me) and interesting presentation.
If I want to listen to music for the sheer joy of it, I tend to go for diversity – Bulgarian women’s choir, gypsy jazz, progressive old-time, Andean tunes, …
Some of my friends occasionally say they’re tired of music and need to take a break from it. They also happen to be people who play, and listen to, a fairly narrow range of music. When I get bored with a particular style, I listen to - or try to play - something radically different for a while. It’s not just medicine to cure the boredom. It’s fun.
Michael, I saw Vox Bulgares on the first US tour and it was probably the most intensely awesome musical experience I’ve ever had. An out-of-body peak experience, a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster. My wife had to whack me with a hammer to get me to sleep that night.
tee he. It's great music isn't it. By far and away terrific music to let wash over you as purely a listener. I don't understand the harmonies on any technical level. And I don't understand the language. But, as I mentioned earlier, "You can get a great deal out of many many forms of art without formally understanding them." There is something about it that really communicates on a strange subconscious level. Unlike diddley music
Funny you should mention, I keep the radio on the Classical station , or the norteno, or the hardcore jazz station. I will play a tape or cd for a couple of days: either eyety- em or effty -em. But after 600 times or so they sort of lose their charm. I like going to concerts and shows, but time and money are major hurdles.
Wonderful, wonderful Bulgarian singing but very difficult to do if its not what your used to. I did a workshop with the lady who leads to London Bulgarian choir and lost my voice completely for three days. its all done at the back of the throat.
Michael could be right in that "diddley" music may not be great to listen to for a period of time, but Irish traditional music is. You need the slow airs, the O'Carolan stuff and tunes akin to it thrown into the mix. Many of the slow airs are "classical" to the ear, as obviously is O'Carolan, mix this with Diddley music and you can tax the brain.
And how many times do I have to tell you Michael, the frame drum came first, then the others joined in, possibly because they could not master the frame drum.
Well yes Mr B Bliss, to make it better to listen too, you could vary it more, play more slow airs, waltzes, songs etc. You could even throw in some ditties from that that old blind Vivaldi wannabe. But you miss the point, as ever. I don't give a toss if it's no good to listen too. The point you, as ever, miss is that it's great to play. But you are forgiven of course, because you don't play. So from your point of view, from your obviously bored perspective, you crave variety.
And yes, though I fail to see the the relevance, the frame drum preceded fiddles, flutes and pipes. But making music with the voice probably preceded it all and the drummer joined in with that, probably because he couldn't sing.
Honest Mr Bliss, I assure you I have never tried to wind up a Bodhran, but the first time I lay my hands on a Clockwork Bodhran, you can be sure I will certainly give it a try!
Maybe, as a multi-instrumentalist, I prefer the variety, as certain tunes suit certain instruments.
As a Luddite, I must confess I succumbed to modern technology and I now have a wind up bodhran, it cost £40 to convert. You could wind that up as well as everything else in Tom's some night, Mr Ptar.
Ah ha! So certain tunes suit certain instruments eh? Like fiddles flutes and pipes suit jigs and reels? And bodhrans suit ... err ... ... hhhmmm .... tunes with no notes in them maybe?
(And I think you wasted your £40. Your plain old bodhran is more than enough of a wind up ... me? I'd rather listen to 'Pibroch' on a Tenor Banjo)
The mandolin suits slow airs, O'Carolan tunes and backing songs. If I wanted to play jigs and reels I would have got a banjo, but I like my mandolin, and besides, the world would have been deprived of it's number one bodhran exponent.
I can play anything on a simple harmonica, never could understand the chromatic thing with a button, but I do not think the harmonica is suited to jigs and reels, certainly not at the expense of a bodhran. So I play the blues harp instead, for backing songs, be they Irish, contemporary, blues or jazz.
In short, although you can play anything on a trumpet, I do think it would suit "The Salamanca".
Surely I wasn't being too deep last time that I confused you chaps.
Now I would back something like "McAlpine's" on a banjo, rather than the mandolin, if you get my meaning.
e.g. I love playing Reels & Jigs on my Mandolin in Sessions! I don't feel I 'have' to drown everyone out with a thundering Banjo.
On the odd occasion that I do take my Banjo out I always take the resonator of - it's just good manners! Like playing a Bodhran with a soft paint brush rather than a table leg!
listening v playing (two)
listening v playing (two)
The listening v playing thread went off at a bit of a tangent, I thought I'd resurrect it. It was a good one ...
There was an interesting anecdote about Kevin Burke doing a solo gig and none of the local musicians turning up ...
It's because the music is about playing. It's about the abstract nature of what it does to the inside of your head while you create these vibrations in air molecules. And about how these vibrations are shared with your fellow creators in a glorious feedback loop. Yes, it had its origins in dance music, but it has become much more insular
Kevin Burke himself mentioned on a record sleeve about not forgetting how the music was played for the sheer enjoyment of the player. And though I'm not knocking the man, he's a terrific player and obviously plays with a great amount of enjoyment, bearing this in mind, it should be no surprise to him that his gigs are poorly attended.
I feel sorry for those who simply like to listen to this music. It's nothing more than voyeuristic. They should go and listen to some mozart and get their brains taxed.
And this whole theory explains a lot of things about the music in general:
It explains the desire of non musicians to want to join in by banging a frame drum.
It explains the oft heard complaint of "why brake neck reel after reel after reel?" Because they're great fun to play
It explains the oft heard complaint of "it all sounds the same." Because when you are playing it, it doesn't.
It explains why even the most popular of players hardly sell any records. It's because the much maligned populace knows that it's crap to just listen too
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by ...
Re: listening v playing (two)
Michael, you're the one who is always saying "Listen, listen, listen". So, surely to be a good player you have to be a good listener too?
I see your point, though. It's not the kind of music you just want to go and listen to, if you are not a player(or aspiring player) yourself. To a non player, it does all sound the same so I'm not sure what they're getting from it.
Having said that, I tend to be quite selective in what I choose to go to hear though I'm exposed to quite a lot of stuff regardless.
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Johnny Jay
Re: listening v playing (two)
It explains this exerpt from my bio (apart from the tattoo)
"I very rarely listen to recorded music (most often to learn from), and the last live act I saw was Kathryn Tickell about 12 years back, in Leek. That's when we saw her tattoo.
I believe that music is something we should do with each other, not something we do to each other."
John - when Michael says "Listen listen listen" - he is saying "listen to how it works (if you want to play it yourself)" - that's different from "listen for entertainment".
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: listening v playing (two)
Yes, I know what he means and I don't disagree. That's not to say that I go to concerts just "to pick up tips". Obviously, I find these entertaining too.
Also, when I'm in a session, I *don't* want to be entertained and listening there certainly means something different from going to a concert.
You've changed your bio slightly since I last looked but I still agree with the statement "I believe music is something we should do with each other, not something we do to each other". However, I took it that you were referring to a session situation(where I would fully agree with that philosophy) rather than a concert.
You are both right, of course. If I didn't play(or try to ) this kind of music, I wouldn't have much interest in it at all and would consider going to concerts and listening to recordings fairly pointless.
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Johnny Jay
Shoot me down in flames, but ....
I happen to believe that Irish music is more than just an arcane form of communication between those 'in the know'. It shouldn't (though it all to frequently is) be the musical equivalent of a bunch of schoolboys sniggering to themselves over obscure references to Ron Knee and Neasden Football Team (There, that dates me - and probably completely mystifies anyone who didn't read Private Eye as a schoolchild).
Irish music is beautiful, stirring, and exciting. If you can't sustain and convey that excitement over an endless set of reels, maybe that's not the way you should be playing it(?)
If I'm right in my interpretation of Michael's comments, he's saying it's too simple (crap, as he puts it) to hold the general public's attention. Hearing, as I do occasionally, the sort of music that sells in mega-units to this same public (And no, they aren't listening to Mozart, Michael), I am puzzled by this assertion.
There is a general truth beneath Michael's argument - that people AREN'T interested in listening to Irish music, but it's because they don't know how to listen to any music. Musicians, whether they are Classical, Rock, Reggae, Jazz, or play some other folk music, are, in my experience, very receptive to Irish music. Most other people have been so conditioned to the commercial/tribal music market that music without vocals/compression/drums and bass/'attitude' that any 'real' music just doesn't compute.
Mark
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Ottery
Re: listening v playing (two)
"You've changed your bio slightly since I last looked" - yeah, I got older.
"I believe music is something we should do with each other, not something we do to each other" - yes John, I am referring to sessions there, rather than concerts. If anyone wants to go to a concert, I'm quite happy for them to go - (but I may choose not to go myself).
As for the old "boring sets of reels" thing. That varies a lot. Sometimes the lads at our session play a set of reels that really lifts the spirits, and another time you just find yourself hoping they don't add yet another on the end of this one, because you're losing the will to live. I think that can vary both with the particular set played, and with one's own mood. Too many variables to pin it down.
I listened to this music for some years - almost always when driving - before I started playing anything. It's since I started playing that I scarcely listen to recorded music except for the purpose of learning a tune.
Is it me, or is there a large wave of slow-time crossing the country today? It's only half past eleven, but it feels like it shoule be about wednesday evening. (It hasn't helped that this dip into my bio has brought back seeing Kathryn Tickells tattoo).
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: listening v playing (two)
Sheesh, what would help, Shawaddydatido?
- Chris
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: listening v playing (two)
uh?
whuh?
mm . . . .
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: listening v playing (two)
Mark, you miss a point about pop "music". You speak of those who are "conditioned to the commercial/tribal music market, the sort of music that sells in mega-units". And you say that "they don't know how to listen to any music". You are right, of course, but you fail to make the connection that this "mega-unit" stuff is not music at all. It's merely fashion and entertainment.
However, I'm still very glad that Mozart continues to sell in considerable, if not mega units. And this is the considerable, if not mega, populace I was referring too, the ones who do get genuine enjoyment out of listening to music, not the eedjits who do not know how. I hope my assertion is un puzzled.
And crap to listen too, does not mean simple. I mean it just doesn't hold aural attention. The tunes are very short, much shorter than any other music I can think of. The "decoration" and "variation" (same thing in my book), when used well mixes up the tunes anyway, and is baffling to the ear. And the range, both in pitch and dynamics is constrictingly tight. The notes out of the twelve available are almost always the same, though the tonal centers of the tunes vary quite a lot. This has the effect, over a set of tunes, of never resolving in the standard sense.
Much of the music has a general feeling of a wall of sound, there are few, if any breaks, and this is not pleasant unless you can decode it. I disagree that, "Musicians, whether they are Classical, Rock, Reggae, Jazz, or play some other folk music, are very receptive to Irish music." Most say they are either out of politeness or misunderstanding.
I was introduced to this trumpet player once by some jazzer mates who were saying, "oh you must meet So & So, he loves Matt Molloy and he plays reels on the trumpet just like Matt, he's brilliant." And sure enough, the bloke didn't half have an incredible technique. But, you've guessed it, it was hopeless. But could I say that? All I said was "huh, yes, very good."
But don't get me wrong, I'm not a bleeding heart saying that the reason no-one listens to it is just because no-one understands it. There is more to it than that. You can get a great deal out of many many forms of art without formally understanding them. It's just that diddley music doesn't have the breadth of expression to encompass much more than the the players own enjoyment of it. That's all.
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by ...
Re: listening v playing (two)
Mozart's stuff bores me stupid. It's so harmonically perfect and balanced it doesn't challenge my ear enough. I bet he was a right insufferable little sh*t as a child too. Oo I'm awful aren't I.
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: listening v playing (two)
Re your second last sentence, Dow. I bet you were too.
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Johnny Jay
Re: listening v playing (two)
I like Eine kleine Nachtmusik but only because it reminds me of first school assemblies - our headteacher used to play it on a record player and when I was in the top year group at 9 years old I sometimes had to be the one to lower the needle onto the record and do a fade out while all the kids filed out to class, but mind I'd probably be bored by that too were it not for the memories it brings back. Anyway I didn't even like school.
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: listening v playing (two)
John, he hasn't changed a bit!
;¬)
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: listening v playing (two)
LOL I was alright till I got to the upper years of high school and then I became an insufferable little sh*t, not wearing my uniform properly and disrupting class and being sent to the deputy head and back again, only to do some more disrupting from outside the classroom door. I used to bully kids but only kids who were older than me and who bullied me before I grew tall enough to intimidate them back
I was nice to the teachers who taught me tunes.
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: listening v playing (two)
Just one point Michael (I've got to get SOME work done - yawn) - My comments about other musicians is, I admit purely anecdotal - it was based upon my personal experience, yours may differ(!) For example If I look at the local youth here in our village - those who are musicians (Most of them are mostly interested in the Jazzy end of Ska, if that makes sense), will happily sit and listen at a session. They won't give it their full attention, but I do watch them and their feet will be tapping, and they will perk up and listen properly if they hear something interesting happening. To a man, the one's who don't make music themselves will NOT sit and listen at a session, they will bugger off somewhere else pretty sharply.....
Maybe there is an element of musicians pretending to like other peoples music stuff out of politeness, but we get so much of that within the session world itself, that I'm pretty attuned to it and good at picking that particular vibe up I think..
p.s. That wasn't you in the photo of Sandy bells in last weeks Observer's rather trite artical about 'where to go to hear folk music', was it?
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Ottery
Re: listening v playing (two)
Sorry for almost hijacking the thread. I want to join in but I can't find anything to disagree with.
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: listening v playing (two)
I've said this before, but I feel it welling up in me again.
I used to listen to a lot of classical music - mainly symphonies. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say I used to listen to classical music a lot.
But nowadays I can't hear the tune. Perhaps the structure is too big for me to hear, or perhaps it is non-existent. (maybe it is both of these at one time or another.)
This subject also brings up something thats been on my mind the past few days. We've agreed to play for a dance, and they will have us on in two slots, and a DJ on in two slots. I'm not sure who gets slots 1 and 3, and who gets 2 and 4. I do know one thing for sure - a guy who only puts CDs of "pop" in and out of slots had better be very careful what he says when he follows us, or hands over to us.
Or am I being touchy and looking for trouble in advance?
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: listening v playing (two)
ha. No, it wisnea me. I heard about it, though havn't seen it
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by ...
Re: listening v playing (two)
Could someone post up a link to Kathryn Tickell's tattoo ? What rhythmn is it played in ? Do you need to be a Nothumbrian piper ?
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: listening v playing (two)
A thumb is always necessary for playing the hole at the back of the pipe and also to help in gripping the instrument so being a Nothumbrian piper not to be recommended.
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Paul_draper
Re: listening v playing (two)
You'll have to help me out with that one Paul.
Blue skies
Ged
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by gedpipes
Re: listening v playing (two)
I agree with Michael in as much as there are musicians (and some of them good ones too) who will play a few hackneyed old Irish traditional tunes from dots without any understanding and think they can play Irish music. They are not prepared to go any deeper than that, not to listen for beautiful tunes that feed the soul, because to go deeper would require them to give up their notion of The Music as simple crap, unworthy of their time and committment.
As for listening, I love listening to jigs and reels and stuff when travelling, also at concerts when anyone happens to gig here from out of town (a very rare occurence) and to discover and learn a few tunes (having only recently discovered the Windows Media Player slow downer).
I don't have any sessions to go to, but I do play along with CD's tapes etc. and would heaps prefer to play The Beautiful Tunes than go listen to other people playing other stuff. If there was more opportunity to play the music I love to play here, I would be more inclined to go listen to other musicians, but given the circumstances the opportunities are all listening opportunities and quite frankly why should I listen to others play music that is not exactly my cup of tea (no matter how good musicians they are). If that makes any sense.
You have to listen to it to play it, but I recon The Music is for the playing, otherwise what's the use of playing it?
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: listening v playing (two)
Of course, if the likes of Kevin Burke, Martin Hayes, Tommy Peoples, or some such legendary fiddleplayers including some of your good selves, turned up in this town, I'd be in the front row, buy your CD's and be very prepared to really listen.
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: listening v playing (two)
Old Scrape, that is so incomprehensible and rambling that it achieves a rare and humbling beauty.
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Ottery
Re: listening v playing (two)
Sorry Ottery, that's all about to change:
Showadd, that's interesting, cause I only listen to Classical Music on my car radio!
One of the major reasons for enjoying it is because there 'isn't' a strong melody a lot of the time & there isn't a constant 'headbanging' 4/4 or 6/8 rhythm.
As for just going to a session & just listening - I don't think I could be bothered, & certainly not if it was one of those mind-numbingly boring, wall to wall 4/4 jobs.
I do enjoy ripping through a few sets of reels myself, but let's face it, you CAN get too much of a good thing & some folks just don't know when to stop & anyway, variety is the spice of life ......what's that you say .....too many cliches...OK ...sorry!
There are a number of non-players who come along regularly to listen to our sessions & they do genuinly enjoy themselves. I would say it was possible that they just came along to enjoy the atmosphere & chat except for the fact that they also pay good money to go to loads of trad concerts. So I must accept that they really do simply enjoy listening to trad.
I like playing a wide variety of rhythms at a session & I'm sure if I was just listening, I would far rather hear variety too.
I know most session musicians don't give a fig for the folks who are listening, but in the back of my mind, I do feel I owe it to the bar owner who is paying me & throwing pints at us, to at least make some attempt to amuse the punters - as long as I am amusing myself at the same time!
I came into this music through attending Dubliners & Corries concerts in the early 70s, & if I didn't play now, I know I'd be attending concerts by groups who provided a lovely mix of songs, slow tunes, fast tunes & would never go near a concert which just offered me frantic, neck-breaking reels all night - can there be anything more boring to LISTEN to?
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: listening v playing (two)
It's not cool to give a fig for what the punters think of the music, but secretly, deep down, everyone does.
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by grego
Re: listening v playing (two)
michael,
I enjoy playing and dancing and listening, participating in music in any way I can get it.
I also have noticed that many local musicians do not attend concerts locally. In some cases, it is money (What do you call a guitarist with no girlfriend? Homeless.). In some cases, I think it is ego, there are some musicians that thrive on being the center of attention, and you can't be that at a concert. In other cases, it is as you describe, the music is not as much fun if you don't join in.
This music is ideally suited toward participation and dancing, but I wouldn't put any negative spin on those facts, they are its strengths. To call listening to it "vouyeuristic" is going a step too far (unless you want to ignite a long thread on the yellow board, that is).
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: listening v playing (two)
If simply listening to Kevin Burke is vouyeristic, then I'm sure he wants me peeping in the window... and that makes me an' him a good match. So thanks to Kevin for not clouding up his beautiful sound with other crap. It allows me to be at one with his violin right along side him. So for those intimate moments with Kevin, I'm happy he's on his own... on that limb.
Also... has Kevin Burke ever comlained publicly about not having well attended concerts? Seems...maybe... he doesn't give a rats ars.
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by tulloch
Re: listening v playing (two)
I love listening to CDs and going to concerts, Its great to hear people who have 'Really, really got it'. Its motivating and inspiring.
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by bb
Re: listening v playing (two)
So bb, you agree with me then. You listen to the music to motivate you to play, not for the abstract pleasure of just listening
And is listening to Kevin Burke voyeuristic? I think my original use of the phrase was referring to sessions, but it's an interesting point. Mr Burke obviously likes to play just for himself and expounds the music as being at its best when this is the case. But he's a professional gigging musician and so has forced himself to deal with this dichotomy. And as a punter at his concert, you must deal with this dichotomy also
# Posted on February 14th 2006 by ...
Re: listening v playing (two)
Of course I agree with you Michael - I always do!
# Posted on February 14th 2006 by bb
Re: listening v playing (two)
I listen to music to motivate me and sometimes I listen just for the abstract pleasure of just listening.
I'm sure that Schumann and his Davidsbund would come march down on me as a Phillistine but the truth is that sometimes I get tired of listening to 'high' music like Mozart, Brahms, Schumann, Chopin and the list goes on.
On the other hand I can listen to Irish music (or any other kind of traditional American/English folk music) for hours on end just for the sake of listening to it. Concerts always motivate me to play which is why I tend to take instruments with me so that I can play afterwords but I can listen to cds without always feeling the motivation to play. I can distinguish between the music (it doesn't all sound alike) but I don't listen just to learn new tunes or to deliberately distinguish between tunes.
So, I listen for pleasure and I can listen to classical music for decent periods as long as it isn't all one composer. But Irish music I can listen to for unlimited amounts of time without any restrictions or anything.
# Posted on February 14th 2006 by musicfan
Re: listening v playing (two)
My commute to work is two hours, round trip, and I mostly listen to classical music from the public stations or to audio books or courses. I generally don’t listen to session-type tunes unless I’m aiming to learn them or sort of studying somebody’s technique or style. Or if it’s a new (to me) and interesting presentation.
If I want to listen to music for the sheer joy of it, I tend to go for diversity – Bulgarian women’s choir, gypsy jazz, progressive old-time, Andean tunes, …
Some of my friends occasionally say they’re tired of music and need to take a break from it. They also happen to be people who play, and listen to, a fairly narrow range of music. When I get bored with a particular style, I listen to - or try to play - something radically different for a while. It’s not just medicine to cure the boredom. It’s fun.
# Posted on February 14th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: listening v playing (two)
hmm, I also have a soft spot for Bulgarian women's choirs
# Posted on February 14th 2006 by ...
Re: listening v playing (two)
Oh, those Bulgarian Women .....
# Posted on February 14th 2006 by Ottery
Re: listening v playing (two)
hmm
# Posted on February 14th 2006 by ...
Re: listening v playing (two)
Michael, I saw Vox Bulgares on the first US tour and it was probably the most intensely awesome musical experience I’ve ever had. An out-of-body peak experience, a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster. My wife had to whack me with a hammer to get me to sleep that night.
# Posted on February 14th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: listening v playing (two)
tee he. It's great music isn't it. By far and away terrific music to let wash over you as purely a listener. I don't understand the harmonies on any technical level. And I don't understand the language. But, as I mentioned earlier, "You can get a great deal out of many many forms of art without formally understanding them." There is something about it that really communicates on a strange subconscious level. Unlike diddley music
# Posted on February 14th 2006 by ...
Re: listening v playing (two)
Just for you Michael:
http://www.singers.com/choral/voicesangelite.html
Bob, sleep tight!
# Posted on February 14th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: listening v playing (two)
Did you spot the bearded Bulgarian lady in the 2nd row? Could be an ITM player on a mission!
# Posted on February 14th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: listening v playing (two)
Funny you should mention, I keep the radio on the Classical station , or the norteno, or the hardcore jazz station. I will play a tape or cd for a couple of days: either eyety- em or effty -em. But after 600 times or so they sort of lose their charm. I like going to concerts and shows, but time and money are major hurdles.
# Posted on February 14th 2006 by Owell Mabee
Re: listening v playing (two)
Wonderful, wonderful Bulgarian singing but very difficult to do if its not what your used to. I did a workshop with the lady who leads to London Bulgarian choir and lost my voice completely for three days. its all done at the back of the throat.
J
# Posted on February 14th 2006 by jfother
Re: listening v playing (two)
Did SHE have a tattoo?
# Posted on February 14th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: listening v playing (two)
Michael could be right in that "diddley" music may not be great to listen to for a period of time, but Irish traditional music is. You need the slow airs, the O'Carolan stuff and tunes akin to it thrown into the mix. Many of the slow airs are "classical" to the ear, as obviously is O'Carolan, mix this with Diddley music and you can tax the brain.
And how many times do I have to tell you Michael, the frame drum came first, then the others joined in, possibly because they could not master the frame drum.
# Posted on February 15th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: listening v playing (two)
Well yes Mr B Bliss, to make it better to listen too, you could vary it more, play more slow airs, waltzes, songs etc. You could even throw in some ditties from that that old blind Vivaldi wannabe. But you miss the point, as ever. I don't give a toss if it's no good to listen too. The point you, as ever, miss is that it's great to play. But you are forgiven of course, because you don't play. So from your point of view, from your obviously bored perspective, you crave variety.
And yes, though I fail to see the the relevance, the frame drum preceded fiddles, flutes and pipes. But making music with the voice probably preceded it all and the drummer joined in with that, probably because he couldn't sing.
# Posted on February 15th 2006 by ...
Re: listening v playing (two)
Am I right in thinking that, from these two ancient expressions:
Master the Drum
&
Beat the Drum
we get the modern word:
'Masterbeat'
# Posted on February 15th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: listening v playing (two)
ho ho ha ha tee he
# Posted on February 15th 2006 by ...
Re: listening v playing (two)
Some people Mr Ptar would call that winding up, round here we call it baiting, and you are a master at it.
# Posted on February 15th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: listening v playing (two)
Honest Mr Bliss, I assure you I have never tried to wind up a Bodhran, but the first time I lay my hands on a Clockwork Bodhran, you can be sure I will certainly give it a try!
# Posted on February 15th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: listening v playing (two)
Maybe, as a multi-instrumentalist, I prefer the variety, as certain tunes suit certain instruments.
As a Luddite, I must confess I succumbed to modern technology and I now have a wind up bodhran, it cost £40 to convert. You could wind that up as well as everything else in Tom's some night, Mr Ptar.
# Posted on February 15th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: listening v playing (two)
"as certain tunes suit certain instruments" Awwwww come on now Bliss, who's winding who up here?
Surely you can play all the tunes you like on any 'one' instrument, can't you?
I mean, for example, consider your own 'tin sandwich'.
Your not telling me Larry Adler couldn't play anything & everything on his, are you?
& you've never lived till you've wept to the heartbreaking sound of a 'Pibroch' on a Tenor Banjo!
# Posted on February 15th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: listening v playing (two)
Ah ha! So certain tunes suit certain instruments eh? Like fiddles flutes and pipes suit jigs and reels? And bodhrans suit ... err ... ... hhhmmm .... tunes with no notes in them maybe?
(And I think you wasted your £40. Your plain old bodhran is more than enough of a wind up ... me? I'd rather listen to 'Pibroch' on a Tenor Banjo)
# Posted on February 15th 2006 by ...
Re: listening v playing (two)
The mandolin suits slow airs, O'Carolan tunes and backing songs. If I wanted to play jigs and reels I would have got a banjo, but I like my mandolin, and besides, the world would have been deprived of it's number one bodhran exponent.
I can play anything on a simple harmonica, never could understand the chromatic thing with a button, but I do not think the harmonica is suited to jigs and reels, certainly not at the expense of a bodhran. So I play the blues harp instead, for backing songs, be they Irish, contemporary, blues or jazz.
In short, although you can play anything on a trumpet, I do think it would suit "The Salamanca".
Surely I wasn't being too deep last time that I confused you chaps.
Now I would back something like "McAlpine's" on a banjo, rather than the mandolin, if you get my meaning.
# Posted on February 16th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: listening v playing (two)
I'm not confused at all.
e.g. I love playing Reels & Jigs on my Mandolin in Sessions! I don't feel I 'have' to drown everyone out with a thundering Banjo.
On the odd occasion that I do take my Banjo out I always take the resonator of - it's just good manners! Like playing a Bodhran with a soft paint brush rather than a table leg!
"but I do not think the harmonica is suited to jigs and reels"
Tell that to Brendan Power!
http://www.celticmusic.com/magazine/pre_11_96/bpower.html
"Now I would back something like "McAlpine's" on a banjo"
Would you? OK but I think this version stirs the blood too:
http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/midi/MCALPFUS.midi
# Posted on February 16th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: listening v playing (two)
I have already told Brendan Power.
Who mentioned "thundering" banjoes, it is not the volume, it is the sound. Why must everything be taken to extremes.
And as Brendan Power wisely does not comment on my bodhran playing, I usually afford him the same respect nowadays.
# Posted on February 16th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: listening v playing (two)
Your wish is my command bb. Ask, & you shall receive:
http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1038566/a/Thundering+Banjos+Of+Bluegrass.htm
# Posted on February 16th 2006 by Ptarmigan