I assume we're talking about stringed instruments here.
Rules are worth knowing about so that you can break them, if necessary. So, we should try out different things. However(and I'm sure people will say I'm wrong), I think it's a case of what works best for you. I will quite often vary things depending on the tune just so it feels comfortable to play.
Depends totally on the tune you're playing. If it's a fast one you're better off with dududu, however, if you want to accent a certain note it might be dud dud in a specific bar. Usually a down stroke gives a heavier tone.
Also depends on were the notes are lying on your strings. If you go from one string to another you might find yourself doing a ddu or even a ddd (slip strokes). Try e.g. a ddu stroke on the first one and a half bars of Tripping Upstairs. That will give you a rather accented f#, g,f#. I sometimes even change position in order to achieve a special effect. Just try out what works best for you.
I think that learning an individual picking sequence for each tune is the road to frustration and mistakes. Some people have a different pick sequence for jigs ie DUD DUD, but not everybody can cope with having to vary their picking, depending on what the rythm of the tune is. I would say most players are content with DUDUDUDUD etc. for all types of tune. What works for virtuosi does'nt allways work for amateurs.
Backer, as an example, I posted a pick sequence for a reel on another thread recently, trying to demonstrate how I found the ability to triplet from an up stroke, as well as a down stroke, was important.
I would recommend, to anyone starting out on a Banjo or Mandolin, that they learn to do both with ease.
That particular sequence depended totally on my starting the tune on a down stroke.
When I started it on an up stroke, the ups & downs of the triplets were reversed.
You don't know, if you are playing a tune in the middle of a set, if you are going to be starting on an up or down stroke, so why not be happy & comfortable with both options.
I certainly don't work out set patterns of up & down for any tunes, mainly because, depending on all sorts of things, I often play tunes very differently each time, for my own sanity.
Todays amateurs are the virtuosi of tomorrow - if they are brave!
When it comes to bowing on a fiddle, I think the DUD DUD bowing for jigs is a very good place to start off. It's also good for picking on a banjo, mandolin guitar etc. It forces you to slur into the heavy beats & makes it easier to get into the swing. Of course it's not a law, there are places where it doesn't sound as nice, but beware of breaking rules just for the sake of breaking the rules. It's all about how phrase sounds. One place I think the effort isn't worth the result is in those triplet runs in hornpipes either DUD DUD or DUD UDU sounds the same & a fiddler would rarely if ever bow that DUD DUD it would slur the triplets together in a funny way.
There are three picking patterns frequently used in jigs - DUD UDU, DUD DUD, and DDU DDU (others are *possible* but not practical).
The first pattern is perhaps the most 'economical', since no two succesive strokes are in the same direction. But many players find it easier to give a jig rhythmic drive using the second pattern. The third pattern, whilst more difficult to master (even though it is in fact involves the same movements as the second pattern, but with the stress on a different stroke) is preferred by some mandolin and banjo players, and is much used by backers on guitar and bouzouki. It gives a different sort of rhythmic drive from the second pattern.
There are more detailed discussions on this subject on the message board at www.mandolincafe.com
What I forgot to mention above, is that, whilst it is a good idea to learn to use one of the three patterns consistently, you don't *necessarily* have to adhere rigidly to one pattern througout a tune - certain passages might favour a particular change of pick direction, and your choice and placing of ornaments will have an effect also.
Personally, I used chaotic DUD UDU-based picking for about 10 years, before I decided to analyse what I was doing, with a view to streamlining my method, and couldn't make any sense of it. I ended up converting to DUD DUD and, whilst my playing was in disarray for a month or so, I am now reaping the benefits.
Appreciate your point Ptarmigan, but I can't hack it,and I've not seen too many who have! As to the point on rythmic drive (Quirl) How does a dancer achieve rythmic drive in a jig? Surely not LRL LRL LRL. I'ts allways been my opinion that given the right pick and the correct pick orientation, you can strike the string(s) up or down without a listener being able to discriminate between the two sounds. On a fiddle there is a difference, but on a banjo or Mandolin It's not noticeable, at least not to a casual listener. I have heard this ( the dud dud chestnut) many times, but I've never heard it proven.
I'll get back to my first point again. There really are'nt rules, and I would advise any beginner to relax and play the tune in it's basic unornamented form, the ornamentation will come as you learn to relax. It should be spontaneous, not pre-arranged, and hopefully not too dependant on which direction your pick happens to be going when the "moment" arrives.
Jigs DUD DUD on a FIDDLE ?
I thought the fingers did all the wqrk until you ornamented ?
Even on a plectrum instrument I wouldn't advise it - you're playing far too much, leave some room for the music to get through, unless you're playing the tune, of course.
Even then, do some back-picking.
Also, why in the world would anyone, in their right mind use this DUD DUD method? It makes absolutely no sense to me, to give yourself more work, stress & hassle!
Me, I'm looking for an easy time & DUD UDU is the only way to go - in my book!
DUD DUD for me. Have seen people use DDU DDU to good effect. You can hear immediately when people are using DUD UDU because it sounds so weak and rhythmless, altho' I'm prepared to accept that it could be good in the right hands.
DUD UDU sounds like bluegrass to my ears, especially on mandolin.
Think of a jig melody like the B-part of "Morrison's" with a strong DA-da-da DA-da-da stress. You really need to be downpicking at every downbeat during those phrases to have it sound right.
You have a point that learning bodhran could be useful for string players too, but with a bodhran you're not concerned with striking bass notes cause you're just going thud thud thud. With a guitar (say), a lot of your bass notes are going to come on the first note of the 2nd group of 3. If they don't, it sounds weak, weak, weak! to my ears.
The other advantage of DUD DUD and DDU DDU is that you have a ready-made fast triplety thing between the adjacent downstrokes, and this can be used to great rhythmic effect, as in DUD/U/ DUD or D/U/DU DDU respectively. Sometimes it happens by accident and it sounds great. No such with DUD UDU unless you make an extra effort, and it sounds like you don't want to have to make that effort Ptarmy
Been down this road before but out of interest does anyone really use DDU DDU.
When Donogh Hennessy ex Lunasa was doing a workshop he spoke of DDU DDU but what he actually meant when asked to slow it down was in fact:
D|DUD etc. But he liked to think of it as DDU. When you do it that way you can hear the subtle difference - I think.
Donough, did you meet Mick the guitarist when you were here? He plays |DDU DDU|. He does this wrist flick thing and I can't work out what he does but it sounds great.
Dow, I really tried to play DDU DDU and I can't help making the second beat of each three heavier than the first, and that would sound a little off-putting as an accompaniment. No I didn't meet Mick when i was in Sydney.
Hey what is the story with bb or should that really be "Brides".
Donough, the way I've seen it work is that the the 2nd downstroke is a very quick and light flick of the thumb joint and the the last upstroke is a proper sweep. It's rhythmically sound the way Mick does it, but I can't replicate it myself. I guess it's just one of those things that takes practice like anything else. What story with bb?
All Ivan knows is what I've told him, as far as I know, unless something drastic has happened in the last few days and totally bypassed me for some reason. Whatever it is, I suspect it's not yellaboard material - check yer e-mail...
I mostly see DUD DUD, and it is the way I play jigs (unless I am lazy and play a D_U D_U two stroke kind of a single jig pattern). I have seen DUD UDU but since it takes a strong upstroke, I find many people avoid it.
I’ve heard my playing described as dud, but that might have been something different.
I used to play with a couple of guys who did DUD UDU and I always thought it took the jig out of a jig. But I realize now that neither of them were really serious about Irish music; it was just a fun diversion from bluegrass and jazz and they hadn’t picked up on the subtleties. If they had gotten immersed, they probably would’ve made DUD UDU work just fine.
I think Al has hit on an important point. The upstroke is naturally weaker then the downstroke for most of us and how we deal with that fact has a lot to do with the patterns we choose to use. It’s hard for me to *not* swing a reel, because my upstroke is never strong enough. When I’ve been away from plectrum playing for a while, I have to do exercises to strengthen the upstroke.
Bob,
I tend to swing reels myself, because of my early USA folk musical influences. From what you have said on earlier threads, it is probably your "inner cowboy" yearning to be freed. My guitar teacher focuses on things like 'light' and 'smooth' with me, because I have things like 'percussive' and 'backbeat' down pat.
You’re probably right, Al. Western swing was part of the soundtrack of my youth, but I have to restrain my inner cowboy, ‘cause he wants to break out in a yodel. Best confined to the shower or commuting.
God, I dont post for ages - come back on for a second and you guys are talking about me!!! Hi Donough - its all true too I think....if we are all talking about the same thing
I learned from the get go as DDU DDU, for no other reason than I heard that it was easy to throw triplets in on the 1st or 2nd note of the pattern. Took a while to get used to. Now I'm trying to learn to do both DUD and DDU such that I can alter them if the string change calls for it.
It also made it easy to learn the lazy D _ U D _ U and using HOs and POs to get the other notes.
Jigs (DUD DUD)
Jigs (DUD DUD)
Do jigs have to be played in the rythm stroke of DUD DUD?
# Posted on February 12th 2006 by ballymack
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
Unless they're slip jigs.
Then it's THUD THUD.
I'll get my coat...
Eno
# Posted on February 12th 2006 by bc_box_player
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
No they don't, rules are for classical players!!
# Posted on February 12th 2006 by Backer
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
I assume we're talking about stringed instruments here.
Rules are worth knowing about so that you can break them, if necessary. So, we should try out different things. However(and I'm sure people will say I'm wrong), I think it's a case of what works best for you. I will quite often vary things depending on the tune just so it feels comfortable to play.
# Posted on February 12th 2006 by Johnny Jay
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
Depends totally on the tune you're playing. If it's a fast one you're better off with dududu, however, if you want to accent a certain note it might be dud dud in a specific bar. Usually a down stroke gives a heavier tone.
Also depends on were the notes are lying on your strings. If you go from one string to another you might find yourself doing a ddu or even a ddd (slip strokes). Try e.g. a ddu stroke on the first one and a half bars of Tripping Upstairs. That will give you a rather accented f#, g,f#. I sometimes even change position in order to achieve a special effect. Just try out what works best for you.
# Posted on February 12th 2006 by Hannah S.
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
I think that learning an individual picking sequence for each tune is the road to frustration and mistakes. Some people have a different pick sequence for jigs ie DUD DUD, but not everybody can cope with having to vary their picking, depending on what the rythm of the tune is. I would say most players are content with DUDUDUDUD etc. for all types of tune. What works for virtuosi does'nt allways work for amateurs.
# Posted on February 12th 2006 by Backer
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
Backer, as an example, I posted a pick sequence for a reel on another thread recently, trying to demonstrate how I found the ability to triplet from an up stroke, as well as a down stroke, was important.
I would recommend, to anyone starting out on a Banjo or Mandolin, that they learn to do both with ease.
That particular sequence depended totally on my starting the tune on a down stroke.
When I started it on an up stroke, the ups & downs of the triplets were reversed.
You don't know, if you are playing a tune in the middle of a set, if you are going to be starting on an up or down stroke, so why not be happy & comfortable with both options.
I certainly don't work out set patterns of up & down for any tunes, mainly because, depending on all sorts of things, I often play tunes very differently each time, for my own sanity.
Todays amateurs are the virtuosi of tomorrow - if they are brave!
# Posted on February 12th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
When it comes to bowing on a fiddle, I think the DUD DUD bowing for jigs is a very good place to start off. It's also good for picking on a banjo, mandolin guitar etc. It forces you to slur into the heavy beats & makes it easier to get into the swing. Of course it's not a law, there are places where it doesn't sound as nice, but beware of breaking rules just for the sake of breaking the rules. It's all about how phrase sounds. One place I think the effort isn't worth the result is in those triplet runs in hornpipes either DUD DUD or DUD UDU sounds the same & a fiddler would rarely if ever bow that DUD DUD it would slur the triplets together in a funny way.
# Posted on February 12th 2006 by B Rad
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
There are three picking patterns frequently used in jigs - DUD UDU, DUD DUD, and DDU DDU (others are *possible* but not practical).
The first pattern is perhaps the most 'economical', since no two succesive strokes are in the same direction. But many players find it easier to give a jig rhythmic drive using the second pattern. The third pattern, whilst more difficult to master (even though it is in fact involves the same movements as the second pattern, but with the stress on a different stroke) is preferred by some mandolin and banjo players, and is much used by backers on guitar and bouzouki. It gives a different sort of rhythmic drive from the second pattern.
There are more detailed discussions on this subject on the message board at www.mandolincafe.com
# Posted on February 12th 2006 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
What I forgot to mention above, is that, whilst it is a good idea to learn to use one of the three patterns consistently, you don't *necessarily* have to adhere rigidly to one pattern througout a tune - certain passages might favour a particular change of pick direction, and your choice and placing of ornaments will have an effect also.
Personally, I used chaotic DUD UDU-based picking for about 10 years, before I decided to analyse what I was doing, with a view to streamlining my method, and couldn't make any sense of it. I ended up converting to DUD DUD and, whilst my playing was in disarray for a month or so, I am now reaping the benefits.
# Posted on February 12th 2006 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
Appreciate your point Ptarmigan, but I can't hack it,and I've not seen too many who have! As to the point on rythmic drive (Quirl) How does a dancer achieve rythmic drive in a jig? Surely not LRL LRL LRL. I'ts allways been my opinion that given the right pick and the correct pick orientation, you can strike the string(s) up or down without a listener being able to discriminate between the two sounds. On a fiddle there is a difference, but on a banjo or Mandolin It's not noticeable, at least not to a casual listener. I have heard this ( the dud dud chestnut) many times, but I've never heard it proven.
I'll get back to my first point again. There really are'nt rules, and I would advise any beginner to relax and play the tune in it's basic unornamented form, the ornamentation will come as you learn to relax. It should be spontaneous, not pre-arranged, and hopefully not too dependant on which direction your pick happens to be going when the "moment" arrives.
# Posted on February 12th 2006 by Backer
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
"Tools, not rules"
# Posted on February 12th 2006 by Innocent Bystander
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
Jigs DUD DUD on a FIDDLE ?
I thought the fingers did all the wqrk until you ornamented ?
Even on a plectrum instrument I wouldn't advise it - you're playing far too much, leave some room for the music to get through, unless you're playing the tune, of course.
Even then, do some back-picking.
# Posted on February 12th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
"Even then, do some back-picking."
Pete's right, you can become too immersed in the music, so why not get yourself a hobby:
http://www.thebackpacker.com/
Also, why in the world would anyone, in their right mind use this DUD DUD method? It makes absolutely no sense to me, to give yourself more work, stress & hassle!
Me, I'm looking for an easy time & DUD UDU is the only way to go - in my book!
# Posted on February 12th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
DUD DUD for me. Have seen people use DDU DDU to good effect. You can hear immediately when people are using DUD UDU because it sounds so weak and rhythmless, altho' I'm prepared to accept that it could be good in the right hands.
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
DDD UUU
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by gian marco
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
DUD UDU sounds like bluegrass to my ears, especially on mandolin.
Think of a jig melody like the B-part of "Morrison's" with a strong DA-da-da DA-da-da stress. You really need to be downpicking at every downbeat during those phrases to have it sound right.
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Laughtonb
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
Don't agree that the up should be any weaker than the down.
If you spend years playing both equally in most tunes your just as strong coming up, when you need to be!
Good training for this could be playing jigs on a Bodhran where you naturally have to strive to be able to hit up, just as hard as down!
So there you have it, my tip for the day - every plectrum player
should learn to play the Bodhran too, to strengthen those 'up muscles'!
Oh Oh.................now what have I done.................
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
You have a point that learning bodhran could be useful for string players too, but with a bodhran you're not concerned with striking bass notes cause you're just going thud thud thud. With a guitar (say), a lot of your bass notes are going to come on the first note of the 2nd group of 3. If they don't, it sounds weak, weak, weak! to my ears.
The other advantage of DUD DUD and DDU DDU is that you have a ready-made fast triplety thing between the adjacent downstrokes, and this can be used to great rhythmic effect, as in DUD/U/ DUD or D/U/DU DDU respectively. Sometimes it happens by accident and it sounds great. No such with DUD UDU unless you make an extra effort, and it sounds like you don't want to have to make that effort Ptarmy
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
Been down this road before but out of interest does anyone really use DDU DDU.
When Donogh Hennessy ex Lunasa was doing a workshop he spoke of DDU DDU but what he actually meant when asked to slow it down was in fact:
D|DUD etc. But he liked to think of it as DDU. When you do it that way you can hear the subtle difference - I think.
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Donough
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
Donough, did you meet Mick the guitarist when you were here? He plays |DDU DDU|. He does this wrist flick thing and I can't work out what he does but it sounds great.
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
Dow, I really tried to play DDU DDU and I can't help making the second beat of each three heavier than the first, and that would sound a little off-putting as an accompaniment. No I didn't meet Mick when i was in Sydney.
Hey what is the story with bb or should that really be "Brides".
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Donough
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
Donough, the way I've seen it work is that the the 2nd downstroke is a very quick and light flick of the thumb joint and the the last upstroke is a proper sweep. It's rhythmically sound the way Mick does it, but I can't replicate it myself. I guess it's just one of those things that takes practice like anything else. What story with bb?
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
Larsheen, read again: "altho' I'm prepared to accept that it could be good in the right hands."
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
Dow I thought Ivan said you would know all about it (bb). Met up with him at the session yesterday.
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Donough
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
All Ivan knows is what I've told him, as far as I know, unless something drastic has happened in the last few days and totally bypassed me for some reason. Whatever it is, I suspect it's not yellaboard material - check yer e-mail...
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
I mostly see DUD DUD, and it is the way I play jigs (unless I am lazy and play a D_U D_U two stroke kind of a single jig pattern). I have seen DUD UDU but since it takes a strong upstroke, I find many people avoid it.
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
I’ve heard my playing described as dud, but that might have been something different.
I used to play with a couple of guys who did DUD UDU and I always thought it took the jig out of a jig. But I realize now that neither of them were really serious about Irish music; it was just a fun diversion from bluegrass and jazz and they hadn’t picked up on the subtleties. If they had gotten immersed, they probably would’ve made DUD UDU work just fine.
I think Al has hit on an important point. The upstroke is naturally weaker then the downstroke for most of us and how we deal with that fact has a lot to do with the patterns we choose to use. It’s hard for me to *not* swing a reel, because my upstroke is never strong enough. When I’ve been away from plectrum playing for a while, I have to do exercises to strengthen the upstroke.
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
Bob,
I tend to swing reels myself, because of my early USA folk musical influences. From what you have said on earlier threads, it is probably your "inner cowboy" yearning to be freed. My guitar teacher focuses on things like 'light' and 'smooth' with me, because I have things like 'percussive' and 'backbeat' down pat.
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
You’re probably right, Al. Western swing was part of the soundtrack of my youth, but I have to restrain my inner cowboy, ‘cause he wants to break out in a yodel. Best confined to the shower or commuting.
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
God, I dont post for ages - come back on for a second and you guys are talking about me!!!
Hi Donough - its all true too
I think....if we are all talking about the same thing
# Posted on February 14th 2006 by bb
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
@Larsheen: An example of this not being true in all cases is Kieran Hanrahan.
Banjo has its own rules - in particular when compared to a double-course instrument like mandolin, etc.
DUD UDU works for me on banjo for jigs. I try NOT to dig in.
Bob (his other self)
# Posted on February 24th 2006 by Laughtonb
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
I learned from the get go as DDU DDU, for no other reason than I heard that it was easy to throw triplets in on the 1st or 2nd note of the pattern. Took a while to get used to. Now I'm trying to learn to do both DUD and DDU such that I can alter them if the string change calls for it.
It also made it easy to learn the lazy D _ U D _ U and using HOs and POs to get the other notes.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by nihilist37