I am having trouble with fretted triplets(speed and making it sound right).
Should a fretted triplet ,or any triplet for that matter, always be started on the downstroke. Any tips?
If I were you I would practice your triplets in both directions. You never know where you will be coming from, when you need your next triplet, so it's better to be prepared!
I found a good way to improve fretted triplets is by practicing them in hornpipes. The pace of the tune is generally steady and there seems to be plenty of places where you can stick them in without haveing to think too much about it.
I was told that reels & hornpipes are down up down up,down up down up.
And jigs are down up down, down up down if this is not done then you will lose the triplets as all triplets should be started on a downstroke. This was in a lesson, yet when I talk to anyone who is playing I seem to get the same answer of, to hell with it play it how you feel most comfertable. I am a newbie at all this.
Playing triplets, up to speed, on the tenor banjo is one of the hardest techniques to master in this music IMHO. I would have to take issue with Ptarmigan and say that I think you'll gain better control and speed if you start all of your triplets with a down-pick ... at least that's what works for me. You will have to make some adjustments to your pick direction in both reels and jigs, depending on where the triplets fall, but I find it easier to do that than to get triplets up to speed and play them cleanly starting with an up pick. Experiment with your right hand technique, and try different picks. Right now I'm using a .82mm Wedgie pick, the hard plastic ones, not the vinyl. I round the tip off a bit ... I find that pointed picks tend to hang on the string a bit too long, destrying the momentum you need to get a triplet.
Use a metronome, get the triplets clean and crisp at a low speed then steadily ratchet the speed up.
I start all plectrum triplets on the downstroke. I can recall only one or two times I’ve ever wished I could start on the upstroke, and it never seemed worth the trouble of training for it.
If you don't have good right hand technique to begin with, the triplets will not come. The triplet should come from the wrist and not the fingers, but there is a technical exception to that rule that a lot of players use, sometimes without realizing it. Mick Moloney showed me a slight bending of the thumb while making a triplet (you can see it in a video of him at http://www.banjosessions.com/dec05/triplets.html) that sometimes makes the triplet a little more stacatto.
You need to practice the basic stroke using a gentle grip on the pick and not picking with an anchored finger or using fingers only. If you can develop good tone, the rest will come eventually. Triplets (and playing fast) are the one technique that everyone asks about. I think you don't have to use it all that much and when you do, you should vary when you put them in. Listen to Angelina Carberry or Kevin Griffin for tasteful use of the triplet.
As for whether or not to start on a downstroke, most of the time you will start on the downstorke anyway. While possible, starting on an upstroke is harder to get the tone you need out of the banjo. As you progress, you will do whatever it takes to get the sound you hear in your head and the triplets will flow.
Your mileage may vary, but here are some physical/mechanical things that can get in the way of plectrum speed and control for me. All except 5 would affect triplets.
1. String gauge too light. This can waste motion in deflecting the string. Also creates a moving target for the next stroke.
2. Pick too thin. This can waste motion in deflecting the pick.
3. Pick too pointy. Too much resistance to the stroke.
4. Too much pick depth. Again, too much resistance to the stroke.
5. Strings spaced too far apart.
A good way to refine your triplet picking is to play a tremelo and pay attention to what happens when you vary the pick depth, angle of attack, range of movement, speed, etc. Apart from giving you information that you can apply to picking, it also will train the muscles and neurons that you need for the triplets.
"I start all plectrum triplets on the downstroke. I can recall only one or two times I’ve ever wished I could start on the upstroke, and it never seemed worth the trouble of training for it."
Och Bob, it's really no bother if you start off practicing both ways right from the start, it gives you total freedom to throw in Triplets whenever & wherever you need them.
I used to practice scales of triplets alternating ups & downs while watching the TV, when I was starting off, but then I was living on my own at the time & in truth, the only neighbours I had then were 4,000 chicks ..............
Don't get excited, not a convent school ..............Pheasant Chicks!
I always obey the speed limit, unless I don't want to
As I think about actual tunes, I realize that I do sometimes violate my stated pattern. I do whatever it takes to get the tune played, but I get back to my familiar pattern as soon as possible. In jigs, it’s not too hard to start most triplets on a downstroke, just because the tempo is friendly.
In hornpipes and reels (DUDU), a triplet on a single pitch would pretty much always start on the downbeat/downstroke, but sometimes a melodic triplet can start on the upbeat. In that case, I might start with an upstroke because it follows quickly and naturaly from the downbeat/downstroke. It depends on what follows, how fast the tune is, how it affects the flow of the rhythm, etc.
It gets confusing when I try to write about it, but basically I start triplets on a downstroke unless it just doesn’t work out.
Ballymack, for what it's worth I find that beyond the whole practise-till-you're-hallucinating part, you need to get to the point of not treating the triplet as a kind of hurdle in the tune - just play right through it instead of getting worked up when you see it coming down the road, as it were. Or to put it another way, Don't Fear the Triplet, it's probably just as afraid of you...
And all the above advice is important too.
Good luck
Exactly right Bob. Most triplets start on the Down-stroke but every now & then you need, for convenience sake, to start one of the up, so it's best to be very comfortable with both directions of attack in order to keep things flowing sweetly.
Incidentally, as an example Ballymack, I would start the triplets in that cracking namesake tune of yours - 'The Road to Ballymac' - as follows:
starting 1st part on a down stroke:
down
up
down
down
up
down
starting 2nd part on an up stroke:
up
down
up
down
I'd hate to be restricted in my playing to have to strangle every tune to suit just down stoked triplets.
But hey, we all have our own style & it'd be crap if we all played the same way.
All I can really say is that my style works for me.
It'd be very interesting indeed to hear some opinions from some of the great players who have been mentioned on the 'Banjo CDs' thread, wouldn't it.
Thanks a million for posting the Mike Maloney clips site. They're great! I've been struggling to get clean triplets. The Maloney videos have been a tremendous.
Also: bobhimself -
I've been playing mandolin for about a year, now, and have experimented with dozens of pick styles. The nearest thing I'd found that was working for me, most of the time was a small, .41ish Dunlop Delrin pick, but I'd often have them fly out from my rather large fingers.
I took your "Pick too thin; pick too pointy; too much pick depth" advice, and bought some D'Andrea, Delrex, triangular .60 mm picks. The have a rather wide angle to the point, but are still rather pointed, so I slightly rounded the point on soime very fine sandpaper. I've been playing for several hours, and my triplets are smooth and clean, even at speed.
They're rather large and fit my fingers so well that I've been able to relax my grip, and haven't had it go airborne once. The difference is amazing! Thanks.
I agree with hurleystick in that the most important thing in playing a triplet - or any other sort of thing - is to keep relaxed. Sometimes I find myself tensing up to the point where I'm all Quazimmodal but if I become aware of it and consciously loosen myself up the tripplets start fying - or, er gliding, maybe. Once one has enough playing time under the belt I think it's all about posture and muscles and schuff lik at.
Just curious: Fretted, as opposed to open-string or what? I don't find any difference.....
Again, emphasising hurleysick's entry ---- attack a triplet with less emphasis that you would another note. I find that when I THINK of insering a triplet I tend to attack it harder, and that makes it fail. But if I ease up on it and just kindof slip it in (sorry, i dont know how else to phrase that) then it works out fine.
Oh, but back to your initial Q: Down. Yes, always down. Practice playig tunes slowly using ONLY down-strokes for a while (assuming you are already proficient in D U D U etc). No triplets. Its like a baseball player with weights on the bat durring practice... You feel so much lighter when you really get going.
Sorry for posting and re-posting and re-re-posting, but this is something that I have been struging with myself as well, and so I have many thought on the subject.
Aside from the whole relaxation thing (keep your shoulders down):
I have been told over and over again to use a very small part of the pick (plectrum, whatever). I used to play that way, but in my recent expeirience one can play much better leaving a larger part of the pick exposed and simply Learning To Controll it.
Ah, screw it, I'm done. Float your hand. Be Floaty.
Just putting in my two cents--I too agree with what seems to be the consensus here: if you are using the "correct" picking patterns for the tune, i.e. down up down up for reels, etc. and down up down down up down for jigs, you will find that you are doing triplets on a downstroke. This is far and away the best way to start a triplet in my opinion. You have more control this way.
It took me four years of playing before playing triplets up to speed that sounded nice and distinct--it's just "one of those things". Keep working on it and it'll become easier.
Fretted Triplets (Banjo)
Fretted Triplets (Banjo)
I am having trouble with fretted triplets(speed and making it sound right).
Should a fretted triplet ,or any triplet for that matter, always be started on the downstroke. Any tips?
# Posted on February 10th 2006 by ballymack
Re: Fretted Triplets (Banjo)
If I were you I would practice your triplets in both directions. You never know where you will be coming from, when you need your next triplet, so it's better to be prepared!
# Posted on February 10th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Fretted Triplets (Banjo)
I found a good way to improve fretted triplets is by practicing them in hornpipes. The pace of the tune is generally steady and there seems to be plenty of places where you can stick them in without haveing to think too much about it.
# Posted on February 10th 2006 by Newty
Re: Fretted Triplets (Banjo)
I was told that reels & hornpipes are down up down up,down up down up.
And jigs are down up down, down up down if this is not done then you will lose the triplets as all triplets should be started on a downstroke. This was in a lesson, yet when I talk to anyone who is playing I seem to get the same answer of, to hell with it play it how you feel most comfertable. I am a newbie at all this.
# Posted on February 10th 2006 by ballymack
Re: Fretted Triplets (Banjo)
Please don't banish me, but, er, what is a fretted triplet??
# Posted on February 10th 2006 by copo24
Re: Fretted Triplets (Banjo)
Playing triplets, up to speed, on the tenor banjo is one of the hardest techniques to master in this music IMHO. I would have to take issue with Ptarmigan and say that I think you'll gain better control and speed if you start all of your triplets with a down-pick ... at least that's what works for me. You will have to make some adjustments to your pick direction in both reels and jigs, depending on where the triplets fall, but I find it easier to do that than to get triplets up to speed and play them cleanly starting with an up pick. Experiment with your right hand technique, and try different picks. Right now I'm using a .82mm Wedgie pick, the hard plastic ones, not the vinyl. I round the tip off a bit ... I find that pointed picks tend to hang on the string a bit too long, destrying the momentum you need to get a triplet.
Use a metronome, get the triplets clean and crisp at a low speed then steadily ratchet the speed up.
# Posted on February 10th 2006 by stevebenn
Re: Fretted Triplets (Banjo)
I am using a Jim Dunlop .60mm Nylon pick at the moment. I was using a .73mm but found it to hard. But then I may be holding the pick to tight.
# Posted on February 10th 2006 by ballymack
Re: Fretted Triplets (Banjo)
I start all plectrum triplets on the downstroke. I can recall only one or two times I’ve ever wished I could start on the upstroke, and it never seemed worth the trouble of training for it.
# Posted on February 10th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Fretted Triplets (Banjo)
ballymack,
If you don't have good right hand technique to begin with, the triplets will not come. The triplet should come from the wrist and not the fingers, but there is a technical exception to that rule that a lot of players use, sometimes without realizing it. Mick Moloney showed me a slight bending of the thumb while making a triplet (you can see it in a video of him at http://www.banjosessions.com/dec05/triplets.html) that sometimes makes the triplet a little more stacatto.
You need to practice the basic stroke using a gentle grip on the pick and not picking with an anchored finger or using fingers only. If you can develop good tone, the rest will come eventually. Triplets (and playing fast) are the one technique that everyone asks about. I think you don't have to use it all that much and when you do, you should vary when you put them in. Listen to Angelina Carberry or Kevin Griffin for tasteful use of the triplet.
As for whether or not to start on a downstroke, most of the time you will start on the downstorke anyway. While possible, starting on an upstroke is harder to get the tone you need out of the banjo. As you progress, you will do whatever it takes to get the sound you hear in your head and the triplets will flow.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com/feb06/sessions.html
# Posted on February 10th 2006 by mikeyes
Re: Fretted Triplets (Banjo)
Your mileage may vary, but here are some physical/mechanical things that can get in the way of plectrum speed and control for me. All except 5 would affect triplets.
1. String gauge too light. This can waste motion in deflecting the string. Also creates a moving target for the next stroke.
2. Pick too thin. This can waste motion in deflecting the pick.
3. Pick too pointy. Too much resistance to the stroke.
4. Too much pick depth. Again, too much resistance to the stroke.
5. Strings spaced too far apart.
A good way to refine your triplet picking is to play a tremelo and pay attention to what happens when you vary the pick depth, angle of attack, range of movement, speed, etc. Apart from giving you information that you can apply to picking, it also will train the muscles and neurons that you need for the triplets.
# Posted on February 10th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Fretted Triplets (Banjo)
I have trouble with those too. Of course I play Flute more, so I don't really work on them.
# Posted on February 10th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: Fretted Triplets (Banjo)
"I start all plectrum triplets on the downstroke. I can recall only one or two times I’ve ever wished I could start on the upstroke, and it never seemed worth the trouble of training for it."
Och Bob, it's really no bother if you start off practicing both ways right from the start, it gives you total freedom to throw in Triplets whenever & wherever you need them.
I used to practice scales of triplets alternating ups & downs while watching the TV, when I was starting off, but then I was living on my own at the time & in truth, the only neighbours I had then were 4,000 chicks ..............
Don't get excited, not a convent school ..............Pheasant Chicks!
# Posted on February 10th 2006 by Ptarmigan
I always obey the speed limit, unless I don't want to
As I think about actual tunes, I realize that I do sometimes violate my stated pattern. I do whatever it takes to get the tune played, but I get back to my familiar pattern as soon as possible. In jigs, it’s not too hard to start most triplets on a downstroke, just because the tempo is friendly.
In hornpipes and reels (DUDU), a triplet on a single pitch would pretty much always start on the downbeat/downstroke, but sometimes a melodic triplet can start on the upbeat. In that case, I might start with an upstroke because it follows quickly and naturaly from the downbeat/downstroke. It depends on what follows, how fast the tune is, how it affects the flow of the rhythm, etc.
It gets confusing when I try to write about it, but basically I start triplets on a downstroke unless it just doesn’t work out.
# Posted on February 10th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Fretted Triplets (Banjo)
Ballymack, for what it's worth I find that beyond the whole practise-till-you're-hallucinating part, you need to get to the point of not treating the triplet as a kind of hurdle in the tune - just play right through it instead of getting worked up when you see it coming down the road, as it were. Or to put it another way, Don't Fear the Triplet, it's probably just as afraid of you...
And all the above advice is important too.
Good luck
# Posted on February 11th 2006 by hurleystick
Re: Fretted Triplets (Banjo)
Exactly right Bob. Most triplets start on the Down-stroke but every now & then you need, for convenience sake, to start one of the up, so it's best to be very comfortable with both directions of attack in order to keep things flowing sweetly.
Incidentally, as an example Ballymack, I would start the triplets in that cracking namesake tune of yours - 'The Road to Ballymac' - as follows:
starting 1st part on a down stroke:
down
up
down
down
up
down
starting 2nd part on an up stroke:
up
down
up
down
I'd hate to be restricted in my playing to have to strangle every tune to suit just down stoked triplets.
But hey, we all have our own style & it'd be crap if we all played the same way.
All I can really say is that my style works for me.
It'd be very interesting indeed to hear some opinions from some of the great players who have been mentioned on the 'Banjo CDs' thread, wouldn't it.
# Posted on February 11th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Fretted Triplets (Banjo)
Mike -
Thanks a million for posting the Mike Maloney clips site. They're great! I've been struggling to get clean triplets. The Maloney videos have been a tremendous.
Also: bobhimself -
I've been playing mandolin for about a year, now, and have experimented with dozens of pick styles. The nearest thing I'd found that was working for me, most of the time was a small, .41ish Dunlop Delrin pick, but I'd often have them fly out from my rather large fingers.
I took your "Pick too thin; pick too pointy; too much pick depth" advice, and bought some D'Andrea, Delrex, triangular .60 mm picks. The have a rather wide angle to the point, but are still rather pointed, so I slightly rounded the point on soime very fine sandpaper. I've been playing for several hours, and my triplets are smooth and clean, even at speed.
They're rather large and fit my fingers so well that I've been able to relax my grip, and haven't had it go airborne once. The difference is amazing! Thanks.
dew
# Posted on February 11th 2006 by dylandew
Re: Fretted Triplets (Banjo)
That's supposed to be: a tremendous "help"
Dew
# Posted on February 11th 2006 by dylandew
Re: Fretted Triplets (Banjo)
I agree with hurleystick in that the most important thing in playing a triplet - or any other sort of thing - is to keep relaxed. Sometimes I find myself tensing up to the point where I'm all Quazimmodal but if I become aware of it and consciously loosen myself up the tripplets start fying - or, er gliding, maybe. Once one has enough playing time under the belt I think it's all about posture and muscles and schuff lik at.
Just curious: Fretted, as opposed to open-string or what? I don't find any difference.....
# Posted on February 12th 2006 by f
Re: Fretted Triplets (Banjo)
Again, emphasising hurleysick's entry ---- attack a triplet with less emphasis that you would another note. I find that when I THINK of insering a triplet I tend to attack it harder, and that makes it fail. But if I ease up on it and just kindof slip it in (sorry, i dont know how else to phrase that) then it works out fine.
Oh, but back to your initial Q: Down. Yes, always down. Practice playig tunes slowly using ONLY down-strokes for a while (assuming you are already proficient in D U D U etc). No triplets. Its like a baseball player with weights on the bat durring practice... You feel so much lighter when you really get going.
fying fying fying
# Posted on February 12th 2006 by f
Re: Fretted Triplets (Banjo)
Sorry for posting and re-posting and re-re-posting, but this is something that I have been struging with myself as well, and so I have many thought on the subject.
Aside from the whole relaxation thing (keep your shoulders down):
I have been told over and over again to use a very small part of the pick (plectrum, whatever). I used to play that way, but in my recent expeirience one can play much better leaving a larger part of the pick exposed and simply Learning To Controll it.
Ah, screw it, I'm done. Float your hand. Be Floaty.
OK
# Posted on February 12th 2006 by f
Re: Fretted Triplets (Banjo)
Mike - thank you so much for the article and the video clips! Very useful all the way around. You are a great resource to this community
Avi
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by improziv
Re: Fretted Triplets (Banjo)
Just putting in my two cents--I too agree with what seems to be the consensus here: if you are using the "correct" picking patterns for the tune, i.e. down up down up for reels, etc. and down up down down up down for jigs, you will find that you are doing triplets on a downstroke. This is far and away the best way to start a triplet in my opinion. You have more control this way.
It took me four years of playing before playing triplets up to speed that sounded nice and distinct--it's just "one of those things". Keep working on it and it'll become easier.
Crystal
# Posted on February 13th 2006 by crystal_bailey