Seamus Connolly said in an online interview (at Breandan Taafe's website) that older fiddlers only kept one finger down at a time. I notice Dale Russ does the same, Kevin Burke doesn't. All I know about fiddle I get from VHS tape...what's the scoop here, is (are?) more fingers down more typical, or one finger at a time?
I still get numb fingers after playing a while, I'm trying to go one-finger-at-a-time. Give those digits a break, you know? Dale certainly is very much in tune so I wouldn't think it's a handicap. You'd think lifting and putting those fingers back down wouldn't be economical of motion or something but Dale isin't a slouch for tempo, either. Seamus said that one-finger is important for getting a more "open" sound in a roll, which these older players had.
Going back to my early days with the guitar and on into the fiddle, I’ve always rejected advice on technique that didn’t feel natural to me and I’ve never been comfortable with the leave-fingers-down approach. Every time I tried it, it seemed to increase the tension and decrease the freedom of movement. I understand that it makes sense from a purely mechanical point of view, but I don’t think it’s optimal for everybody.
For me, picking up a finger with precision is harder than popping it down and then up. I notice this especially when I play the whistle. I try to keep the fingers relaxed and close to the fingerboard and not worry about whether they are actually contacting the string.
My rolls tend toward that open sound, but I think it’s been more of a stylistic choice than a result of technique. But I could be wrong, again.
Kevin Burke's theory is that you leave fingers down if they're "behind" the finger holding the active note, particularly if you're soon going back to those other fingers. It's all about economy of motion--why lift a finger if it's not in the way, and if you're headed back to it in the near future?
But his hand is always incredibly relaxed, so even when a finger is down on the string, there's little or no tension needed to keep it there. Every finger that isn't being used at the moment to hold a note is "taking a break" in Kevin's method of playing.
I haven't seen Dale Russ play, but I have seen musicians who finger one note at a time and always lift off any unused fingers. Seems a waste of motion to me, but if it works for them, so what? And there are times where it makes sense--to prepare for another note, to avoid damping a neighboring string, to free up another finger for greater range of motion (some of us are more tight jointed and "web-fingered" than others).
I tend to do a little of both, depending on the situation, though on average I probably favor keeping "behind" fingers down, and sometimes even putting them down early. In the B part of Little Katie Kearny, for example, the ending phrase goes like this:
e/f/g|afbg afge|dBGB d2 ...|
Let me break this down.
When I do the uphill triplet, I leave my index finger on the "f" so it's still there when I come to the "af" at the start of the next bar. Then I put my pinky and middle fingers down at the same time in anticipation of the "bg" part. Through all of this, my index remains anchored on the "f," coming off only when I go from the "g" to the open "e." And as my hand shifts to the second string for the next phrase, my index lands on the "B" just as my ring hits the "d" and so forms a pivot point for the whole "dBGB d2" piece.
As for Mr. Connolly's comment about open rolls, I'm not sure what he means there. For me, the difference between an open, notey roll and a tighter, more percussive one is all in the timing, and whether or not you actually play the cuts and lift offs as pitched notes. In open, notey rolls I spread the 5 notes out fairly evenly, more like a roll on flute, and I press the string all the way to the fingerboard to actually sound each note's pitch. In tigher, percussive rolls, I hold the first note for nearly half the length of the alloted time, and then thwack through the remaining cuts, etc., touching the string only enough to interrupt its vibrations, not worrying about sounding a clear pitch. For me, it doesn't matter whether I'm planting fingers or letting them lift off one at a time, although leaving the "behind" fingers certainly enhances economy of motion.
All that said, there is a tangible difference in the two approaches to fingering. Leaving "behind" fingers planted can help in giving your playing a smoother, more legato feel. Not everyone likes this, however, and it can be tricky to synchronize you left hand timing with your right hand bowing--a crucial piece of playing this highly rhythmic dance music. Some people get better results emphasizing the timing and rhythm when they finger each note separately.
I suspect that past generations of fiddlers used both approaches, or a mix, depending on what suited them best. In the end, what matters is finding whatever technique works for *you* to give you the sound you're after. It's like tying flies for trout fishing--regardless of how you knot the thread, how much or how little glue you use, how close you crop the fur and feathers, or even what fur and feathers you use, any fly that catches a fish is a good fly.
I also agree with Bob--sometimes keeping fingers planted limits the freedom of other fingers. I notice this in some G major tunes where you get locked into the index never coming off the B (all those |G2 BG dGBG| phrases), and after a few bars of that, my hand is ready for a triple twisting double back layout high above the trampoline just to shake the kinks out.
Letting fingers up is one answer to that, but you can also learn to simply relax the fingers while they're still on the string. I'm better at this than I once was, but am still working on it....
Seems like a simple enough question, but it brings to mind multiple responses. First off, you get better tone using a single finger. It's a purer note with less dampening of the string vibration.
Second, economy of motion has little to do with it, in my mind. Your fingers are plenty capable of the necessary motion. Plus, what is better, lifting three fingers to get an open note, or striking each note individually.
Third, in my mind, there is a stiffness implied in leaving your fingers on the board. I would prefer a flexible notion where you don't need to think about lifting your fingers, rather only thinking about striking the note.
Fourth, there are obvious times where you might leave fingers on the board, like with drones, chords or double stopping (whatever you want to call it). Also, if you are playing the same notes back and forth across strings you might just leave those fingers in place. Like the first bit of Ms. McLeod's... G2 BG AGBG... one could keep the third finger on the D string planted that whole time. This might go against the flexibility advice, but if you have been playing this tune for decades, then you know what is going to happen implicitely.
Fifth, your fingers should not be getting numb. Are your finger tips numb? If so, you are pressing down too hard on the strings. You really only need minimal pressure.
Re: economy of motion. Most experienced fiddlers keep their fingers hovering close over the strings, regardless of whether they lift fingers off or leave them planted. The effect on your hand tension is much the same because so little effort is used either way. So the economy of motion debate may be moot.
In the example above from Little Katie Kearny, I initially tried to get that phrase smooth by placing one finger at a time, but eventually found it easier to coordinate things if I doubled up "behind" fingers with notes above. I want to emphasize that this is what works for me, and may not be the most efficient approach for others. I've played guitar and 5 string banjo for 30 years, and so am used to playing chords where it's quite common to land 2, 3, or 4 fingers simultaneously on the fingerboard. That training may translate for me in this way onto fiddle. I've never really thought about it this way before, because I first learned the "fingers down" approach from Kevin Burke, and just accepted it as fiddle technique. Unfortunately, I don't have Kevin's carefree left hand, so I've had to adapt my technique over the years to include some lifting off in places where he would no doubt stay planted. No biggee.
And now to argue with myself… I do occasionally wonder if I gave up too soon on the fingers-down approach. It would’ve meant a lot of additional frustrating practice, but if you’ve ever had your pocket picked, you know that fingers can be trained to do amazing things. I wonder if I’d have an easier time with those compact, bird-chirpy rolls if I had stuck with it.
When I was teaching guitar, I usually explained the fingers-down idea to students and let them decide if they wanted to pursue it. I didn’t keep statistics, but my vague recollection is that most of them found it easier than I did, consistent with my suspicion that it just wasn’t right for *me.*
My classical guitar tutor advised me to keep as few fingers down as possible, basically only those actually in use or about to be used, the reason being that keeping all the fingers down tends to tense the hand.
However, I have seen a (printed) violin tutor which tells the pupil to keep fingers down on the strings (i.e. if you're using the 4th finger all the other fingers will be holding the string donw behind it). But I think this was a didactic device to build up strength in the pupil's hand and fingers when doing the exercises. Anyway, that tutor dates from the early days of the last century, so thoughts are likely to have changed since then.
The one-finger-at-a-time-on-the-string approach, which I have always used when playing the cello, and more recently when playing the fiddle, gives a more relaxed hand and enables the player to adjust finger position more easily and quickly. Of course, you've got to be reasonable about this: if you're playing a trill or other ornament you'll naturally keep your finger in place on the bottom note.
Trevor, I think the fingers-down camp still dominates the guitar pedagogy, but I’ve seen some notable exceptions. Things have loosened up since the end of the Segovia era.
When I do a roll that pivots on the second finger, I don't put the first finger down until i'm ready to lift the second finger, so the only time I have more than one finger down is while the third finger is down. When I get home, I'm going to try fingers-down. I'll try it sitting down, so I won't fall over.
Trevor, I think either approach can lead to undue tension, and either approach can be tension free.
I've seen proponents of the one-finger-at-a-time method--good fiddlers--whose left hand looks like a cat on a red-hot skillet, fingers shooting skyward, stretching and reaching wildliy in all directions. (Ask Zina about her left index finger...heh.)
And I've seen--close up--how utterly relaxed and limp Kevin Burke's hand is, even with fingers down and driving a fast reel.
I suspect some of us are wired to be more relaxed one way, and some of us are wired to be more relaxed the other. Or we get accustomed to whichever way we learned.
In either case, my guess is that Kevin Rietmann's problem of numb fingers is due to pressing too hard, regardless of which approach he's using.
I rarely think about this much, certainly not when I'm actually playing. When it does crop up, it's because I'm fumbling the fingering of some phrase in a new tune, and I want to sort it out. The phrase in Little Katie Kearny (above) is a case in point. I originally played it one finger at a time, but the results weren't consistent, especially at session speed. So I tried holding the g at the same time I landed on the b, and then it worked effortlessly.
The only other time I'm likely to deconstruct my left hand this way is if I'm inadvertently leaning on an adjacent string. In such cases, I generally just remind myself to rock my hand a bit more to get the offending finger out of the way, rather than lifting it off (assuming I'll soon be going back to that finger to complete the phrase). But in some instances it makes more sense to me to just lift the finger and get it out of the way.
In short, I doubt there's any reason to be a purist about it one way or the other, and the minute you think you have a hard and fast rule, the tunes will likely give you plenty of excuses to do an exception to that rule.
In my experience of teaching fiddle I find that the students with the hardest time getting a good tone and flexibility of fingers are those who have more than one finger down at the same time. I try to get them into the habit of one finger at a time as I feel it improves their overall dexterity and tone.
Of course there will be many an occasion during a tune that you will need to leave a finger down as you're coming right back to it -but that varies from tune to tune. Eventually they learn to do both as the tune suits them~! (hopefully!)
I agree that the flexibility and the absence of tension is more important than where or how one "rests" their fingers. Whatever the approach, nimbleness is desired.
To be clear about this, I don't think anyone is recommending putting fingers down on strings if you're not going to play those notes anytime soon.
Take the start of Sally Gardens.
|G2 DG B2 GB|dBeB dBAB|
On the first note, only the third finger is down, on the G. (At this point, there's no reason to drop any other fingers onto the D string, or any other string, for that matter.)
But once my index is on the B, it stays there (not clamped to the fingerboard, but pulsing whenever the B is played) until it lifts for the open A.
In contrast, I typically lift my third finger off the G as I go to that first B. In part, it helps me avoid damping the A string, and in part it frees me up to use the third finger to cut that B2, or add a chromatic triplet (e.g., B/c/B ).
Point being, the fingers-down approach is not some rigid, fingers-*always*-down system.
Learning vibrato is a good way to lossne up your fingers and keep them relaxed when they're on the string. Even if you don't intend to use vibrato in this music, it's worth learning for this reason alone.
I find it takes more effort to hold 'back' fingers away from the strings than to let them flop where they want to flop ... and as they tend to want to flop pretty close to where I'll want them to go anyway, I'd recommend you let them hang out til you need them.
There are many tunes I'd find difficult, if not impossible, to play at a decent pace if I didn't keep some of my fingers down. Take the opening bar and half of Drowsey Maggie:
E2BE dEBE|E2BE
I hold down E and B with the first finger and use the third finger to play the D - a single finger movement for 1&1/2 bars.
And that EB interval turns up a hell of a lot in Irish music.
I think that I tend to leave my fingers down on faster songs and not so much on slower songs. Of course I don't typically analyze this when I'm playing so I'm not positive.
I know that when I was competing on the Texas Old Time Fiddle Association circuit (hereafter TOTFA, pron. Tofta (it's a Texas thing don't ask)) that I typically kept my fingers on the fingerboard really lightly.
As for didactic purposes I think that once the student is clear on where to place their fingers and they aren't letting certain fingers move others in placement then letting them leave their fingers down is fine. My intonation certainly never suffered in competition or performance when I left my fingers down.
As for the fingers going numb - are you resting your elbow against your body or on a chair arm while you play? Or when you are typing are you possibly propping your arms in such a way that you could be cutting off nerve circuits? Just be careful, because your fingers shouldn't be getting numb when you practice, sore - yes, numb - no.
My elbow does rest in a bit close, yes. I don't have such a problem playing while standing, possibly the lack of "constrictive environs" helps? I've overcome the problem of "death grip" with plenty of other instruments, I don't know what the deal with the fiddle is. I never had any of these problems with the cello - I tried playing the fiddle ala cello too. Typing never gets to my hands either.
I never thought of vibrato as a loosener upper, thanks for all the advice here. I've tried keeping my fingers moving around a bit while I play, too, I keep forgetting to keep up the motion (like keeping the foot tapping). Back at it I suppose.
Seamus Connolly was saying the older players kept only one finger on the string at a time, they'd lift the finger they were using for the note being rolled and grace with the one behind it. So for a high A roll they'd lift the ring finger, smack the string with the middle finger as the ring finger went up, then back down with the ringer. Dale does exactly the same thing, looks like a spider on a hot plate.
I guess I should ask if it's all of your fingers going numb or just some of them? If it is some of them - which ones? If all of them where does the numbness start?
Hmmmm. A typical roll on the 1st string A would go like this:
play the A with the ring finger.
strike the string with the fourth finger (the high B), not lifting the ring.
let the A sound again.
lift the ring finger to sound the G sharp (middle finger).
and hammer the ring finger back down onto the A.
I can't say I've ever seen or heard anyone go all the way to the open string on a ring finger roll, not in Irish music anyway.
I think one reason to keep fingers down within reason (if you have a short fourth finger, you may need to lift the index to arch up and hit a nice focused note with that finger) is that intervals on the violin are very precise, particularly half steps, and that relationship is felt, not seen. You can't gauge a tight half step (semi tone) without feeling it. Also, once you've set your hand's "frame" for the key you're playing, keeping fingers down or close to down maintains that relationship for the tune, especially for less experienced players who have yet to develop a sense as to where the notes are with no frets by which to judge. Just my two bits.
Just back from the session. I definitely do leave some fingers down while playing. It's sparse, but it certainly does happen.
I'll be interested to try a single finger roll, however. It would take some getting used to...striking each note in a roll individually. My immediate reaction is that it would be yet another tool in the arsenal, and not an overall change in my playing. Still, it is intriguing.
It's occurred to me that the main reason why I don't put all the fingers down when I'm playing the fiddle is that if I do then I'll be playing 'orribly out of tune. It's those thick fingers from a lifetime of playing the cello, you see. I can't have the 2nd and 3rd fingers down next to each other and expect a true semitone between them (e.g. C#-D) without shifting one of them out of the way. Anyway, classical violinists have to do this all the time in the higher fingerboard positions, or slide a finger from one note to another.
Fingers down as much as possible (but not always) - better tone, much easier on the fingers, economy of movement, logical once it becomes the natural way to go about learning a tune, smooth, better flow, allows for easier note bends, cuts and doublestopping across strings and an under harmony. Makes bowing easier. Can cover bowing slips. Depends whether you like the resulting sound. I think it enriches a tune (the way I hear it, anyway), but I have heard that some people consider it 'muddying' of clear and precise notes (but who wants to sound like a machine gun anyway). Have played for years both ways, and fingers down gets the thumbs up from me.
What is a gast? And you flabber them? Sounds like Lewis Carroll.
This is what Seamus was talking about:
"Another thing— people want to learn how to do a roll and it’s almost like there’s nothing else in Irish fiddling only the roll. You can play some beautiful music, like what’s played in East Galway, and it may not have a roll in it. And what I’m hearing in the rolls today is different. When people go to do a third finger roll, they’re putting down the finger underneath and leaving it there, and you don’t hear the fourth note at all because they’re not lifting the finger enough. What I do, and what the older people did, is to use ‘independent fingering’ [Seamus demonstrated this technique for me several times. When he rolls on a note, only one finger is on the string at a time; if the roll is on the third finger, he places his third finger, brings down the fourth while lifting the third, back to the third, brings down the second while lifting the third, and then back to the third while lifting the second.] If you leave your fingers down on the string you don’t have the freedom in your hand. What this does is make the roll sound more open, like the playing of Morrison and Killoran."
I get a bit numb in the fingers. I get way into it when I play, I don't like to stop either, probably I just need to chill as the expression goes.
Kevin, sometimes I find myself tapping the strings when I do a roll, especially if I start in sawing and rolling without any warmup. Could that be the source of your numb fingers?
Ahhh...the roll described in that excerpt is the same fingering as I gave above, dropping only down to the middle or "second" finger.
Basically, that's just an open roll, where the pitch of the notes are actually sounded. Brian Conway does them this way most of the time, and Tommy Peoples also plays some rolls this way, although in both their cases, I can't say whether they leave lower fingers down or lift them off.
I'd still argue that what makes the roll sound more open is (1) sounding the actual notes, rather than just interrupting the string's vibration with a thwack, and (2) spreading the roll out over the entire length of the quarter or dotted quarter, creating space between each note.
I use these open rolls in my playing, but tend to favor the more percussive, cranny style (a la Kevin Burke). It's nice to have both at hand, depending on what sound I'm after.
Kevin, the numbness suggests a pinched nerve somewhere, possibly in the hand, but maybe from further up the arm--wrist, elbow, or shoulder/collarbone area. I've had issues with this myself--in my right hand from smashing my elbow on a cinderblock wall, and in my left hand from thoracic outlet compression, a genetic condition. Numbness is not good--you could be doing gradual but permanent nerve damage, and that can lead to muscle damage. Worth getting checked out. You could start by trying different arm positions to see if the numbness goes away with your wrist, elbow, or shoulder in a different posture. If that doesn't help, a visit to the doctor might be in order.
A tangent (NOT a hijack ) There was quite a discussion last month on a classical guitar discussion forum regarding the mirror image of this discussion: right hand finger planting. Not relevant to fiddle, but I am posting the link coz: 1) some guitarists have joined this thread, which is also relevant to guitar, and, 2) interesting.........humorous.........something.........to see the similair concept for the opposite hand discussed.
So, if you haven't had enough, and/or are curious about the other hand for guitar:
A visit to the doctor? Will I get a lollipop?
The ulnar nerve near the elbow can numb the fingers, it says here. Maybe that's the bugaboo. What's a good regimen for the hand? Stretching and hot and cold water alternating, right?
I need to try out more gear - one of those shoulder pads perhaps. I don't much like the shoulder rest I've been using - Viva brand. Not into the extra weight for one thing, I really like playing without a chin rest too.
Kevin, a neurologist can do a nerve conduction test to find out which nerve is affected, where along the nerve the problem is occurring, and to what degree the nerve signal is being affected (they test how fast your nerve conducts a stimulus and compare that to an expected normal range). If you ask nice, they may even give you a lollipop.
The ulnar nerve may be the likely culprit, but there are other possibilities, and most involve problems further up the arm, not in the hand itself.
The numbness could also be caused by lack of blood circulation--some crimp in your circulatory system. My thoracic outlet compression causes this as well.
And if the numbness isn't just happening when you play fiddle, you may have a whole host of other possible causes to suss out.
Interesting link, Tom. Thanks. I was one of Charlie Duncan’s guinea pig students thir-holycow years ago when he was developing his pedagogy and writing the first book. I haven’t read the books. I wonder if there’s any trace of me in them?
I had a nerve conduction test once when my leg went numb and sluggish for a few months. I failed miserably.
Getting better involved lots of massage and sonar bombardment. Fun! Also, the physio was hot. But scary too, in that "I can crush steel girders between my thumb and forefinger" sorta way that physiotherapists have about them.
For good measure get an acupressure treatment too, like acupuncture or shiatsu. It's good for your yang.
I can attest that left-hand numbness can be caused by simple pressure on the left collarbone area. Changing to a different shoulder rest fixed mine.
As for fingering, I guess I was very much in the one-finger-at-a-time school (but keeping them close to the strings), from early exposure to classical technique. But recently a fiddle teacher showed me how some phrases do work better with fingers left down and the bow crossing strings (arpeggio-like).
And the sound can be quite different too, depending on whether you do single-finger or arpeggio-like fingering. Consider "third-and-fourth-finger" versus "third-finger-and-open-string"; the sustain of the open string really changes the sound of the phrase.
Also, do you want to keep the notes flowing continuously (all connected--legato is the classical term, I think), like a piper would? Then you should consider economy of motion. Leaving some fingers down might work better than "pick-em-up-and-put-em-down" for some phrases.
Fingers on the fiddle neck
Fingers on the fiddle neck
Seamus Connolly said in an online interview (at Breandan Taafe's website) that older fiddlers only kept one finger down at a time. I notice Dale Russ does the same, Kevin Burke doesn't. All I know about fiddle I get from VHS tape...what's the scoop here, is (are?) more fingers down more typical, or one finger at a time?
I still get numb fingers after playing a while, I'm trying to go one-finger-at-a-time. Give those digits a break, you know? Dale certainly is very much in tune so I wouldn't think it's a handicap. You'd think lifting and putting those fingers back down wouldn't be economical of motion or something but Dale isin't a slouch for tempo, either. Seamus said that one-finger is important for getting a more "open" sound in a roll, which these older players had.
# Posted on February 8th 2006 by Kevin Rietmann
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
Going back to my early days with the guitar and on into the fiddle, I’ve always rejected advice on technique that didn’t feel natural to me and I’ve never been comfortable with the leave-fingers-down approach. Every time I tried it, it seemed to increase the tension and decrease the freedom of movement. I understand that it makes sense from a purely mechanical point of view, but I don’t think it’s optimal for everybody.
For me, picking up a finger with precision is harder than popping it down and then up. I notice this especially when I play the whistle. I try to keep the fingers relaxed and close to the fingerboard and not worry about whether they are actually contacting the string.
My rolls tend toward that open sound, but I think it’s been more of a stylistic choice than a result of technique. But I could be wrong, again.
# Posted on February 8th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
You have a fingerboard and strings on a whistle?
Sounds like something from oddmusic.com!
# Posted on February 8th 2006 by Kevin Rietmann
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
Kevin Burke's theory is that you leave fingers down if they're "behind" the finger holding the active note, particularly if you're soon going back to those other fingers. It's all about economy of motion--why lift a finger if it's not in the way, and if you're headed back to it in the near future?
But his hand is always incredibly relaxed, so even when a finger is down on the string, there's little or no tension needed to keep it there. Every finger that isn't being used at the moment to hold a note is "taking a break" in Kevin's method of playing.
I haven't seen Dale Russ play, but I have seen musicians who finger one note at a time and always lift off any unused fingers. Seems a waste of motion to me, but if it works for them, so what? And there are times where it makes sense--to prepare for another note, to avoid damping a neighboring string, to free up another finger for greater range of motion (some of us are more tight jointed and "web-fingered" than others).
I tend to do a little of both, depending on the situation, though on average I probably favor keeping "behind" fingers down, and sometimes even putting them down early. In the B part of Little Katie Kearny, for example, the ending phrase goes like this:
e/f/g|afbg afge|dBGB d2 ...|
Let me break this down.
When I do the uphill triplet, I leave my index finger on the "f" so it's still there when I come to the "af" at the start of the next bar. Then I put my pinky and middle fingers down at the same time in anticipation of the "bg" part. Through all of this, my index remains anchored on the "f," coming off only when I go from the "g" to the open "e." And as my hand shifts to the second string for the next phrase, my index lands on the "B" just as my ring hits the "d" and so forms a pivot point for the whole "dBGB d2" piece.
As for Mr. Connolly's comment about open rolls, I'm not sure what he means there. For me, the difference between an open, notey roll and a tighter, more percussive one is all in the timing, and whether or not you actually play the cuts and lift offs as pitched notes. In open, notey rolls I spread the 5 notes out fairly evenly, more like a roll on flute, and I press the string all the way to the fingerboard to actually sound each note's pitch. In tigher, percussive rolls, I hold the first note for nearly half the length of the alloted time, and then thwack through the remaining cuts, etc., touching the string only enough to interrupt its vibrations, not worrying about sounding a clear pitch. For me, it doesn't matter whether I'm planting fingers or letting them lift off one at a time, although leaving the "behind" fingers certainly enhances economy of motion.
All that said, there is a tangible difference in the two approaches to fingering. Leaving "behind" fingers planted can help in giving your playing a smoother, more legato feel. Not everyone likes this, however, and it can be tricky to synchronize you left hand timing with your right hand bowing--a crucial piece of playing this highly rhythmic dance music. Some people get better results emphasizing the timing and rhythm when they finger each note separately.
I suspect that past generations of fiddlers used both approaches, or a mix, depending on what suited them best. In the end, what matters is finding whatever technique works for *you* to give you the sound you're after. It's like tying flies for trout fishing--regardless of how you knot the thread, how much or how little glue you use, how close you crop the fur and feathers, or even what fur and feathers you use, any fly that catches a fish is a good fly.
# Posted on February 8th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
I also agree with Bob--sometimes keeping fingers planted limits the freedom of other fingers. I notice this in some G major tunes where you get locked into the index never coming off the B (all those |G2 BG dGBG| phrases), and after a few bars of that, my hand is ready for a triple twisting double back layout high above the trampoline just to shake the kinks out.
Letting fingers up is one answer to that, but you can also learn to simply relax the fingers while they're still on the string. I'm better at this than I once was, but am still working on it....
# Posted on February 8th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
Seems like a simple enough question, but it brings to mind multiple responses. First off, you get better tone using a single finger. It's a purer note with less dampening of the string vibration.
Second, economy of motion has little to do with it, in my mind. Your fingers are plenty capable of the necessary motion. Plus, what is better, lifting three fingers to get an open note, or striking each note individually.
Third, in my mind, there is a stiffness implied in leaving your fingers on the board. I would prefer a flexible notion where you don't need to think about lifting your fingers, rather only thinking about striking the note.
Fourth, there are obvious times where you might leave fingers on the board, like with drones, chords or double stopping (whatever you want to call it). Also, if you are playing the same notes back and forth across strings you might just leave those fingers in place. Like the first bit of Ms. McLeod's... G2 BG AGBG... one could keep the third finger on the D string planted that whole time. This might go against the flexibility advice, but if you have been playing this tune for decades, then you know what is going to happen implicitely.
Fifth, your fingers should not be getting numb. Are your finger tips numb? If so, you are pressing down too hard on the strings. You really only need minimal pressure.
# Posted on February 8th 2006 by Jode
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
How did I know I was going to cross-post with you Will?
# Posted on February 8th 2006 by Jode
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
Yes, but we gave conflicting and complementary advice, which is a good thing.
# Posted on February 8th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
Re: economy of motion. Most experienced fiddlers keep their fingers hovering close over the strings, regardless of whether they lift fingers off or leave them planted. The effect on your hand tension is much the same because so little effort is used either way. So the economy of motion debate may be moot.
In the example above from Little Katie Kearny, I initially tried to get that phrase smooth by placing one finger at a time, but eventually found it easier to coordinate things if I doubled up "behind" fingers with notes above. I want to emphasize that this is what works for me, and may not be the most efficient approach for others. I've played guitar and 5 string banjo for 30 years, and so am used to playing chords where it's quite common to land 2, 3, or 4 fingers simultaneously on the fingerboard. That training may translate for me in this way onto fiddle. I've never really thought about it this way before, because I first learned the "fingers down" approach from Kevin Burke, and just accepted it as fiddle technique. Unfortunately, I don't have Kevin's carefree left hand, so I've had to adapt my technique over the years to include some lifting off in places where he would no doubt stay planted. No biggee.
# Posted on February 8th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
And now to argue with myself… I do occasionally wonder if I gave up too soon on the fingers-down approach. It would’ve meant a lot of additional frustrating practice, but if you’ve ever had your pocket picked, you know that fingers can be trained to do amazing things. I wonder if I’d have an easier time with those compact, bird-chirpy rolls if I had stuck with it.
When I was teaching guitar, I usually explained the fingers-down idea to students and let them decide if they wanted to pursue it. I didn’t keep statistics, but my vague recollection is that most of them found it easier than I did, consistent with my suspicion that it just wasn’t right for *me.*
# Posted on February 8th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
"You have a fingerboard and strings on a whistle?"
No, silly, but I do use a capo on it. Saves the expense of having a whistle in every key.
# Posted on February 8th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
My classical guitar tutor advised me to keep as few fingers down as possible, basically only those actually in use or about to be used, the reason being that keeping all the fingers down tends to tense the hand.
However, I have seen a (printed) violin tutor which tells the pupil to keep fingers down on the strings (i.e. if you're using the 4th finger all the other fingers will be holding the string donw behind it). But I think this was a didactic device to build up strength in the pupil's hand and fingers when doing the exercises. Anyway, that tutor dates from the early days of the last century, so thoughts are likely to have changed since then.
The one-finger-at-a-time-on-the-string approach, which I have always used when playing the cello, and more recently when playing the fiddle, gives a more relaxed hand and enables the player to adjust finger position more easily and quickly. Of course, you've got to be reasonable about this: if you're playing a trill or other ornament you'll naturally keep your finger in place on the bottom note.
# Posted on February 8th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
Trevor, I think the fingers-down camp still dominates the guitar pedagogy, but I’ve seen some notable exceptions. Things have loosened up since the end of the Segovia era.
When I do a roll that pivots on the second finger, I don't put the first finger down until i'm ready to lift the second finger, so the only time I have more than one finger down is while the third finger is down. When I get home, I'm going to try fingers-down. I'll try it sitting down, so I won't fall over.
# Posted on February 8th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
Trevor, I think either approach can lead to undue tension, and either approach can be tension free.
I've seen proponents of the one-finger-at-a-time method--good fiddlers--whose left hand looks like a cat on a red-hot skillet, fingers shooting skyward, stretching and reaching wildliy in all directions. (Ask Zina about her left index finger...heh.)
And I've seen--close up--how utterly relaxed and limp Kevin Burke's hand is, even with fingers down and driving a fast reel.
I suspect some of us are wired to be more relaxed one way, and some of us are wired to be more relaxed the other. Or we get accustomed to whichever way we learned.
In either case, my guess is that Kevin Rietmann's problem of numb fingers is due to pressing too hard, regardless of which approach he's using.
# Posted on February 8th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
At the risk of seeming obsessive....
I rarely think about this much, certainly not when I'm actually playing. When it does crop up, it's because I'm fumbling the fingering of some phrase in a new tune, and I want to sort it out. The phrase in Little Katie Kearny (above) is a case in point. I originally played it one finger at a time, but the results weren't consistent, especially at session speed. So I tried holding the g at the same time I landed on the b, and then it worked effortlessly.
The only other time I'm likely to deconstruct my left hand this way is if I'm inadvertently leaning on an adjacent string. In such cases, I generally just remind myself to rock my hand a bit more to get the offending finger out of the way, rather than lifting it off (assuming I'll soon be going back to that finger to complete the phrase). But in some instances it makes more sense to me to just lift the finger and get it out of the way.
In short, I doubt there's any reason to be a purist about it one way or the other, and the minute you think you have a hard and fast rule, the tunes will likely give you plenty of excuses to do an exception to that rule.
# Posted on February 8th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
"At the risk of seeming obsessive...."
Ha! Would we be here if we weren't obsessive?
# Posted on February 8th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
Yes, but I'd rather be an obsessive player than an obsessive typist....
# Posted on February 8th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
In my experience of teaching fiddle I find that the students with the hardest time getting a good tone and flexibility of fingers are those who have more than one finger down at the same time. I try to get them into the habit of one finger at a time as I feel it improves their overall dexterity and tone.
Of course there will be many an occasion during a tune that you will need to leave a finger down as you're coming right back to it -but that varies from tune to tune. Eventually they learn to do both as the tune suits them~! (hopefully!)
# Posted on February 8th 2006 by fiddlefamily
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
I agree that the flexibility and the absence of tension is more important than where or how one "rests" their fingers. Whatever the approach, nimbleness is desired.
# Posted on February 8th 2006 by Jode
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
To be clear about this, I don't think anyone is recommending putting fingers down on strings if you're not going to play those notes anytime soon.
Take the start of Sally Gardens.
|G2 DG B2 GB|dBeB dBAB|
On the first note, only the third finger is down, on the G. (At this point, there's no reason to drop any other fingers onto the D string, or any other string, for that matter.)
But once my index is on the B, it stays there (not clamped to the fingerboard, but pulsing whenever the B is played) until it lifts for the open A.
In contrast, I typically lift my third finger off the G as I go to that first B. In part, it helps me avoid damping the A string, and in part it frees me up to use the third finger to cut that B2, or add a chromatic triplet (e.g., B/c/B ).
Point being, the fingers-down approach is not some rigid, fingers-*always*-down system.
Learning vibrato is a good way to lossne up your fingers and keep them relaxed when they're on the string. Even if you don't intend to use vibrato in this music, it's worth learning for this reason alone.
# Posted on February 8th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
I find it takes more effort to hold 'back' fingers away from the strings than to let them flop where they want to flop ... and as they tend to want to flop pretty close to where I'll want them to go anyway, I'd recommend you let them hang out til you need them.
# Posted on February 8th 2006 by five
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
Me too.
# Posted on February 8th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
There are many tunes I'd find difficult, if not impossible, to play at a decent pace if I didn't keep some of my fingers down. Take the opening bar and half of Drowsey Maggie:
E2BE dEBE|E2BE
I hold down E and B with the first finger and use the third finger to play the D - a single finger movement for 1&1/2 bars.
And that EB interval turns up a hell of a lot in Irish music.
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by MPM
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
I think that I tend to leave my fingers down on faster songs and not so much on slower songs. Of course I don't typically analyze this when I'm playing so I'm not positive.
I know that when I was competing on the Texas Old Time Fiddle Association circuit (hereafter TOTFA, pron. Tofta (it's a Texas thing don't ask)) that I typically kept my fingers on the fingerboard really lightly.
As for didactic purposes I think that once the student is clear on where to place their fingers and they aren't letting certain fingers move others in placement then letting them leave their fingers down is fine. My intonation certainly never suffered in competition or performance when I left my fingers down.
As for the fingers going numb - are you resting your elbow against your body or on a chair arm while you play? Or when you are typing are you possibly propping your arms in such a way that you could be cutting off nerve circuits? Just be careful, because your fingers shouldn't be getting numb when you practice, sore - yes, numb - no.
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by musicfan
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
My elbow does rest in a bit close, yes. I don't have such a problem playing while standing, possibly the lack of "constrictive environs" helps? I've overcome the problem of "death grip" with plenty of other instruments, I don't know what the deal with the fiddle is. I never had any of these problems with the cello - I tried playing the fiddle ala cello too. Typing never gets to my hands either.
I never thought of vibrato as a loosener upper, thanks for all the advice here. I've tried keeping my fingers moving around a bit while I play, too, I keep forgetting to keep up the motion (like keeping the foot tapping). Back at it I suppose.
Seamus Connolly was saying the older players kept only one finger on the string at a time, they'd lift the finger they were using for the note being rolled and grace with the one behind it. So for a high A roll they'd lift the ring finger, smack the string with the middle finger as the ring finger went up, then back down with the ringer. Dale does exactly the same thing, looks like a spider on a hot plate.
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by Kevin Rietmann
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
I guess I should ask if it's all of your fingers going numb or just some of them? If it is some of them - which ones? If all of them where does the numbness start?
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by musicfan
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
Hmmmm. A typical roll on the 1st string A would go like this:
play the A with the ring finger.
strike the string with the fourth finger (the high B), not lifting the ring.
let the A sound again.
lift the ring finger to sound the G sharp (middle finger).
and hammer the ring finger back down onto the A.
I can't say I've ever seen or heard anyone go all the way to the open string on a ring finger roll, not in Irish music anyway.
But then I'm no Seamus Connolly either.....
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
I think one reason to keep fingers down within reason (if you have a short fourth finger, you may need to lift the index to arch up and hit a nice focused note with that finger) is that intervals on the violin are very precise, particularly half steps, and that relationship is felt, not seen. You can't gauge a tight half step (semi tone) without feeling it. Also, once you've set your hand's "frame" for the key you're playing, keeping fingers down or close to down maintains that relationship for the tune, especially for less experienced players who have yet to develop a sense as to where the notes are with no frets by which to judge. Just my two bits.
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by thier1754
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
addendum: When vibrating, you lift the other fingers. I don't think many fiddlers keep them truly down to the fingerboard when vibrating...Do they??
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by thier1754
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
Just back from the session. I definitely do leave some fingers down while playing. It's sparse, but it certainly does happen.
I'll be interested to try a single finger roll, however. It would take some getting used to...striking each note in a roll individually. My immediate reaction is that it would be yet another tool in the arsenal, and not an overall change in my playing. Still, it is intriguing.
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by Jode
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
this is one of those technique questions that utterly flabergast me. Like it makes the blind bit of a difference.
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
It's occurred to me that the main reason why I don't put all the fingers down when I'm playing the fiddle is that if I do then I'll be playing 'orribly out of tune. It's those thick fingers from a lifetime of playing the cello, you see. I can't have the 2nd and 3rd fingers down next to each other and expect a true semitone between them (e.g. C#-D) without shifting one of them out of the way. Anyway, classical violinists have to do this all the time in the higher fingerboard positions, or slide a finger from one note to another.
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
BTW, there's a difference between "playing out of tune" and "playing 'orribly out of tune"
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
Oh dear, Michael's had his gast flabbered again.
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
Fingers down as much as possible (but not always) - better tone, much easier on the fingers, economy of movement, logical once it becomes the natural way to go about learning a tune, smooth, better flow, allows for easier note bends, cuts and doublestopping across strings and an under harmony. Makes bowing easier. Can cover bowing slips. Depends whether you like the resulting sound. I think it enriches a tune (the way I hear it, anyway), but I have heard that some people consider it 'muddying' of clear and precise notes (but who wants to sound like a machine gun anyway). Have played for years both ways, and fingers down gets the thumbs up from me.
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
What is a gast? And you flabber them? Sounds like Lewis Carroll.
This is what Seamus was talking about:
"Another thing— people want to learn how to do a roll and it’s almost like there’s nothing else in Irish fiddling only the roll. You can play some beautiful music, like what’s played in East Galway, and it may not have a roll in it. And what I’m hearing in the rolls today is different. When people go to do a third finger roll, they’re putting down the finger underneath and leaving it there, and you don’t hear the fourth note at all because they’re not lifting the finger enough. What I do, and what the older people did, is to use ‘independent fingering’ [Seamus demonstrated this technique for me several times. When he rolls on a note, only one finger is on the string at a time; if the roll is on the third finger, he places his third finger, brings down the fourth while lifting the third, back to the third, brings down the second while lifting the third, and then back to the third while lifting the second.] If you leave your fingers down on the string you don’t have the freedom in your hand. What this does is make the roll sound more open, like the playing of Morrison and Killoran."
I get a bit numb in the fingers. I get way into it when I play, I don't like to stop either, probably I just need to chill as the expression goes.
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by Kevin Rietmann
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
Kevin, sometimes I find myself tapping the strings when I do a roll, especially if I start in sawing and rolling without any warmup. Could that be the source of your numb fingers?
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
Ahhh...the roll described in that excerpt is the same fingering as I gave above, dropping only down to the middle or "second" finger.
Basically, that's just an open roll, where the pitch of the notes are actually sounded. Brian Conway does them this way most of the time, and Tommy Peoples also plays some rolls this way, although in both their cases, I can't say whether they leave lower fingers down or lift them off.
I'd still argue that what makes the roll sound more open is (1) sounding the actual notes, rather than just interrupting the string's vibration with a thwack, and (2) spreading the roll out over the entire length of the quarter or dotted quarter, creating space between each note.
I use these open rolls in my playing, but tend to favor the more percussive, cranny style (a la Kevin Burke). It's nice to have both at hand, depending on what sound I'm after.
Kevin, the numbness suggests a pinched nerve somewhere, possibly in the hand, but maybe from further up the arm--wrist, elbow, or shoulder/collarbone area. I've had issues with this myself--in my right hand from smashing my elbow on a cinderblock wall, and in my left hand from thoracic outlet compression, a genetic condition. Numbness is not good--you could be doing gradual but permanent nerve damage, and that can lead to muscle damage. Worth getting checked out. You could start by trying different arm positions to see if the numbness goes away with your wrist, elbow, or shoulder in a different posture. If that doesn't help, a visit to the doctor might be in order.
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
A tangent (NOT a hijack
) There was quite a discussion last month on a classical guitar discussion forum regarding the mirror image of this discussion: right hand finger planting. Not relevant to fiddle, but I am posting the link coz: 1) some guitarists have joined this thread, which is also relevant to guitar, and, 2) interesting.........humorous.........something.........to see the similair concept for the opposite hand discussed.
So, if you haven't had enough, and/or are curious about the other hand for guitar:
http://www.acousticguitar.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=005812;p=1
Best always,
Tom
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by ceciltguitar
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
A visit to the doctor? Will I get a lollipop?
The ulnar nerve near the elbow can numb the fingers, it says here. Maybe that's the bugaboo. What's a good regimen for the hand? Stretching and hot and cold water alternating, right?
I need to try out more gear - one of those shoulder pads perhaps. I don't much like the shoulder rest I've been using - Viva brand. Not into the extra weight for one thing, I really like playing without a chin rest too.
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by Kevin Rietmann
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
Kevin, a neurologist can do a nerve conduction test to find out which nerve is affected, where along the nerve the problem is occurring, and to what degree the nerve signal is being affected (they test how fast your nerve conducts a stimulus and compare that to an expected normal range). If you ask nice, they may even give you a lollipop.
The ulnar nerve may be the likely culprit, but there are other possibilities, and most involve problems further up the arm, not in the hand itself.
The numbness could also be caused by lack of blood circulation--some crimp in your circulatory system. My thoracic outlet compression causes this as well.
And if the numbness isn't just happening when you play fiddle, you may have a whole host of other possible causes to suss out.
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
Interesting link, Tom. Thanks. I was one of Charlie Duncan’s guinea pig students thir-holycow years ago when he was developing his pedagogy and writing the first book. I haven’t read the books. I wonder if there’s any trace of me in them?
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
I had a nerve conduction test once when my leg went numb and sluggish for a few months. I failed miserably.
Getting better involved lots of massage and sonar bombardment. Fun! Also, the physio was hot. But scary too, in that "I can crush steel girders between my thumb and forefinger" sorta way that physiotherapists have about them.
For good measure get an acupressure treatment too, like acupuncture or shiatsu. It's good for your yang.
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by Q
Re: Fingers on the fiddle neck
I can attest that left-hand numbness can be caused by simple pressure on the left collarbone area. Changing to a different shoulder rest fixed mine.
As for fingering, I guess I was very much in the one-finger-at-a-time school (but keeping them close to the strings), from early exposure to classical technique. But recently a fiddle teacher showed me how some phrases do work better with fingers left down and the bow crossing strings (arpeggio-like).
And the sound can be quite different too, depending on whether you do single-finger or arpeggio-like fingering. Consider "third-and-fourth-finger" versus "third-finger-and-open-string"; the sustain of the open string really changes the sound of the phrase.
Also, do you want to keep the notes flowing continuously (all connected--legato is the classical term, I think), like a piper would? Then you should consider economy of motion. Leaving some fingers down might work better than "pick-em-up-and-put-em-down" for some phrases.
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by mickray