Of course it is a stupid question, but..I hold the fiddle bow at the end, like most classically taught players. Folk fiddlers all hold it along the bow. What is the advantage of this? I presume it makes something easier or smoother or better. But what? If it has an advantage then I'm keen to give it a go, but I'm not sure what I'm looking for. However I only play folk and so when in Rome...
This is not a stupid question, BUT: there' s plenty of folk fiddlers with a more or less classical bow grip (myself included).
It would be interesting to hear from those that have tried it both ways.
BTW, baroque violinists also hold it along the bow.
Holding the bow up away from the frog is simply easier when you are learning, that's all. It balances easier and it wobbles less. However, once you get past the initial feeling of holding an alien in your hand, it has nothing going for it whatsoever.
I played like this for maybe 10 years and was perfectly happy with the results. But I found myself with a few months to spare and I thought I'd re-train myself out of a lot of "traditional" bad habits; the three main ones being,
holding the palm of my left hand parallel to the neck while gripping the nut tightly in the crook of my thumb and forefinger,
not using a shoulder rest,
and holding the bow away from the frog.
It took the few months to get as good as I was with the bad techniques, but oh boy, once those hurdles were over, what an exponential difference they have made to my playing, in almost every respect.
It's basically down to how much actual technique you actually "need" to play this music. Because the answer is "hardly any really", you come across some absolutely terrific players with dreadful technique. But me? I'm after an easy life, and a bit of technique really does make things a hell of a lot simpler in the long run.
michael,i would n't dismiss playing without a shoulder rest out of hand although if this works for you and others,fair enough.everyone has a different build.
as most jigs/reels etc can be played in first position the shoulder rest becomes redundant for me at least.
but you're dead right when you say that a bit of technique can save trouble and make for an easier life( just on the physical side alone)
That's an interesting story Michael, though I'm not sure that everyone would second you with calling it 'bad habits' (I would, but then, I never played in a different way, so I don't want to condemn a way of playing I never really tried).
Far from all classical players use a shoulder rest! It' s a minority, but it's a growing minority, I think.
Forgot to mention in my earlier post that the baroque bow of course is different from the 'modern' bow. Different balance too, I guess.
I started at the frog then I found that my hand kept creeping up the length of the stick. When I upgraded my bow my hand went back down to the frog.
For me I find that when playing with my hand at the frog, I have a larger range of techniques that I can use. My playing is more powerful and expressive while still being able to manage fast bowings, bowed triplets etc.
my theory is that classical musicians use the entire range of motion down to the frog. Fiddlers rarely, if ever, play down there or need that part of the bow. But I don't think it matters too much.
I've tried holding the bow up the stick a ways, and I always revert back to the frog because I can't say I gain anything up the stick. Playing from the frog gives you more bow to use and it also seems easier to control a wider range of dynamics from the frog.
In short, anything I can do from the frog, I can do from up the stick. But the reverse isn't true.
I rarely see fiddlers holding the bow up the stick these days--I'd say the frog hold is much more common, and the norm among the "big name" players.
Shoulder rest isn't needed for playing out of first position either. Look at any of the baroquers, (as well as a load of fine fiddlers.) I think the crucial "restricting" (aka "bad") habit there is the hand bent back so the heel of the hand touches the end of the fiddle body.
naclachan, welcome to this crazy mustard board. I trust you'll get all your musical problems solved by the resident experts here.
As for me, I do hold the bow very close to the Frog, but not in the classic, 'classical' grip.
It's just that the two Fiddlers who's Bow styles impressed me the most, when I was learning, both held their bow by the frog - lucky me I'd say, cause it is obvious that you have the use of more of the bow if you control it from the end.
We had an Appalachian fiddler join us a few Friday nights ago & he played a couple of his favourite songs/tunes from home.
I call them that deliberately because he sang & played & played & sang his way through each of them using only a few inches at the centre of the bow.
They were great fun to play along with but it was very obvious that he used & needed very little of the bow to do what he was doing so he managed fine with his grip.
Well known Appalachian/Bluegrass fiddler in Belfast actually just uses a 3/4 bow as, I guess, he finds he doesn't need a long bow for that music & his style of playing.
With gripping the bow away from the frog, I'd say the main problem would come when you were looking for really long notes, as on airs & suchlike.
shoulder rests are not critical of course, but typically some sort of way of elevating the instrument to your chin rather thatn dipping your head into the instrument is preferred..whether this is a rest, or a pad under the coat, like the old classical players, Heifitz, Oistrakh, Szeryng did. Menuhin did not use a pad or a rest though...go figure.
People that play up the bow are just bad people. They don't deserve to live. Now that I have your attention, I'm just kidding. I think playing up the bow just plain limits your bowing capabilities. I would suggest everyone learn to play from the frog. I have a friend that is a great fiddle player that moved up the bow after years of playin, just to look more "old style" when performing on stage. I was surprised to hear so many people comment on this. i heard "wow, look how he holds the bow" or "he must be a real old school fiddler" and remarks like that. So I would say if you thikn it's cool, play up the bow. If you want to have the full range of the bow, play at the frog.
Heard somebody ask Jerry Holland about this, as he has an unusual up-the-bow sort of hold; his reply, in dry humor format, was, go ahead and learn the classical way, it won't hold you back any.
A downside of holding a modern bow more then a centimetre or two up from the frog is that doing so will reduce the volume of sound you can get out of the instrument. I'm not going to be any more specific, but I've seen a very "good" and extraordinary example of that effect. The fiddle isn't one of the loudest of instruments, so why make it quieter?
The only good reason I can think of holding a modern bow 1 or 2 centimetres from the frog is to get the correct balance. This may be an issue with carbon fibre bows where the sticks are all identical but the balance of individual bows can differ due to non-identical frogs (which are natural wood); a good player will naturally compensate by moving his hand up the stick a little.
If you want to bow in the baroque way why not get a baroque bow and do the job properly?
I hold my bow in the classical style because that is how I was taught. I have tried playing higher up on the bow just for fun and I do feel that it affects the sound that I get but I haven't experimented enough to decide whether I like the new sound. And when I'm tired I revert to my classical training.
I do not play with a shoulder rest and have never had any problems changing positions on the fiddle. I like to be able to feel the resonance of the sound. And I've never had any problems with the heel of my hand touching the body of the fiddle. I don't play as high up on my shoulder as some classical musicians but I've never had any problems related to the lack of shoulder rest so I'd hesitate to call this a bad habit - traditional or not.
I equally hold my bow in the classical style with some slight variations.
I think some tradtional players hold the bow up the stick because a) they've seen other people do it and b) because it can give you an 'on the string' sound which works well for some music.
However if you want to play a wide range of different styles the classical grip has to be the way to go.
am i right in my gleanings from past posts that the baroque bow is shorter and/or lighter? Does it automaticly sound different, and if so, how? just faster? different tone?
I am kind of struggling with bow grip lately for some reason, my hand keeps ending up a centimeter off the frog toward the tip and my thumb has worn a little nick in the leather binding there.
I often get poor tone, I am not a very skilled player, but I'm trying to learn to listen for differences, so this is an interesting discussion for me.
There's so much to think about all at once when fiddling, I'm afraid my brain and ears are not as nimble as they once were, but derned if I'll give up now!
full measure..typically the fleshy part of your thumb, not the pad, should rest between the end of the frog and the leather...everybody has different structure as to thum size and muscle twitch and the flexibility of thumb (and fingers and everything else) so there is no real one good position...just make sure your hand is nice and relaxed...your bow grip should not be a grip at all..the bow should be held between the thum and middle finger, basically, with the pinky and first finger asting as fulcrum/levers...the 2nd and 3rd finger should be nice and relaxed against the frog...on a downbow your pinky may come off the top of the bow with it regaining position resting nice and curved on top of the bow as the stroke approaches mid bow coming up...the wrist should not come up towards your chin, but sort of remain on an even plane with the thumb...try this..place your hand on a table...nice and relaxed, not flat out with the palm down, but with your fingers curled and resting on the tips..your thumb automatically will rest on the table..now move your wrist back and forth keeping your elbow still..this is the motion to emulate with the bow stroke
Naclachan, and all dear folk here, when considering this question (esp. using shoulder rest or not) shouldn't a person think about his/her own body size? We are (obviously) so differently built -- length of neck, arms and hands surely should be considered when learning/playing; extremes, anyway.
I always tell students to close their eyes and really think about how playing feels and to experiment with different positions. woops this is almost sounding smutty...
The baroque music period extended for about 150 years from the early 1600's to the 1750's. The first baroque bows were about half the size of modern bows but developed over the period, getting longer and heavier, with more hairs. But what all baroque bows had in common was that the middle of the stick was always furthest from the hair (unlike the modern bow where the opposite is the case).
The effect of the shape of the baroque bow is that if you make a long bow-stroke with constant speed and pressure the tone will start relatively softly at the end of the bow, get louder towards the middle and die away towards the other end (a rather vocal style, in fact). The middle of the baroque bow is best for playing fast because the bow feels light there and tends to take care of its own articulation. That is one reason, incidentally, why in baroque times they never bothered to indicate in the music whether to use an up bow or down bow. There was a fairly general rule in dance music of the time that the first beat of the bar, and every other strong beat within the bar, was to be played with a down bow.
It hardly needs to be repeated that Irish traditional dance music has its antecedents in the baroque.
The further up the stick you hold the bow, the less you have available to use... and as Kevin Burke once remarked ... "you paid for it"!!! (Bow GRIP? AAAAAAAAARGH!!!!!)
The idea of putting the thumb on the bow hair to put tension on it is one best forgotten. It arose out of a misunderstanding of the old 17c-early 18c "French grip" where the thumb was under the frog and the 4th finger (pinky) was under the stick. The "French grip" died out out when it became obvious it wasn't all that effective for the more advanced playing. The idea of using the thumb to tension the hair arose again in the first quarter of the 20c in the German invention of the "Bach bow", which has little or no basis in baroque usage.
I disagree with the idea that the fiddle doesn't sound as good when you choke up on the bow I think of Cathal Hayden, who never holds the bow by the frog. I've played mostly Appalachian/old time music and I have tried to break my bad habits by using a shoulder rest, which always seems to fall off while I'm playing. When I try holding the bow by the frog, it doesn't feel right to me... I also have the bad habit of holding the neck of the violin in my palm; that's the most limiting of my bad habits. The best part of choking up on the bow is in a crowded session, when you aren't able to use long bow strokes.
Some digressive thoughts on the subjects of shoulder rests and chinrests.
It's worth noting that neither was around in the baroque era, or the classical for that matter. The shoulder rest is a 20c phenomenon (just after WW2 I believe) - and many of the really great names of the time never used one. The chinrest was invented by the violinist-composer Spohr in the 1820's, right at the end of the classical period.
How did players cope without these modern aids?
As Ecumenical has pointed out, before shoulder rests arrived on the scene the fiddle would have rested lightly on the collar bone, although no doubt some players might have used a cloth pad or the turned-over lapel of their coat. Speaking personally, I used a shoulder rest for the first few months of playing the fiddle and couldn't get on with it at all - it restricted my movement far too much and made my neck ache. So I ditched it and haven't looked back since. Holding the instrument feels much freer and effortless, and the tone seems better. It's worth pointing out that there is now a significant number of players in both classical and folk genres who now play without shoulder rests or even chinrests (the fiddle player in "Red Priest" is a good example of doing without both aids).
Today, playing deliberately without a chinrest is quite an interesting experience! In baroque times there were two styles: the player's chin was generally kept in contact with the belly (or perhaps the tailpiece) of the fiddle, or out of contact.
If you kept your chin on the belly of the instrument it would dampen the resonance of the instrument to a certain extent (try this), and would damage the varnish over time unless you used a protective cloth.
If the player kept his chin out of contact with the instrument he would be much freer to move his head in any direction and look around. This would imply a virtual complete lack of stress in the neck and shoulder muscles, something which plagues many modern players. This is all tied in with the fiddle resting on the collar bone, and the fact that baroque fiddle playing didn't have the large number of left-hand positional changes that are characteristic of the post-baroque eras. In fact, in the early baroque period the highest note would have been the C on the E-string, played with an extended 4th finger (pinky) in the 1st position. This is the situation today with 99.9% of Irish traditional fiddle music. If 1st position is all you're ever going to use then there really is no need for a chinrest.
Without chin contact it gets more interesting when you start playing baroque music that goes up the fingerboard. For most of it, the 4th position is as high as you'll need, although Bach goes up to the 7th once or twice, and there is a handful of virtuoso concertos that go even higher. Going up is easy enough. Coming back down safely is another matter. There are different ways of doing it, all of which work, the choice depending on the player. One way is to briefly touch the chin down on the tailpiece as you come back down. Another is to briefly touch the chin down on the belly on the E-string side of the tailpiece. When touching either the tailpiece or the treble side of the belly with the chin to stabilise the instrument the player may find that he naturally raises his left shoulder briefly under the fiddle to support it.
A third way of moving round the positions was to "walk" the left hand up and down the neck using the thumb and fingers, the essential point being that you never move the thumb and fingers simultaneously. Using this method means that the fiddle is at all times as stable as it is in the 1st position, but it obviously needs more practice than the first two methods.
I feel that most fiddle players would benefit with experimenting for a little while with playing without a shoulder rest, and possibly even without a chinrest, the idea being to keep in touch with the baroque roots of the music we play. Who knows, you may find after a trial that you actually prefer to play without a shoulder rest - or even a chinrest.
If you decide to take off the chinrest as an experiment I suggest that a good way to support the fiddle, as I have found, is to have the instrument resting on the collarbone and to let the tailpiece rest gently against the left side of your chin. That is, your chin will be on the treble side of the tailpiece but not actually touching the belly of the instrument (except when you're into the high-position work I've mentioned above). This is a stable position and prevents any sliding of the instrument downwards towards your right.
Advantages of playing without shoulder rest and/or chinrest? The instrument feels lighter and easier to hold. The tone resonates better, and sounds more immediate to the player, because there is no "scaffolding" to dampen the vibrations or get in the way of the sound. There is no "scaffolding" to fall off, become loose, or rattle or buzz (the bane of many violinists). There is no spending a lot of time - and money - in deciding which is the best shoulder rest/chinrest combination for you, and then wondering afterwards if you really have made the right and final choice. When you get used to a "bare" fiddle you feel muscularly more relaxed, and this is reflected in your playing.
I found out the hard way how to play without a chinrest a couple of years ago at the Scoil Eigse at Clonmel. In the middel of a workshop the thread stripped on one of the tie rods of my chinrest and I had to take it off. I found I could still play without it after a bit of on-the-hoof experimenting (see my advice a couple of paragraphs back), and saw no reason to hunt around for an immediate replacement in Clonmel. Now, I tend to alternate between chinrest and no chinrest, depending how I feel, although I'm using the chinrest less frequently now.
Interesting you should mention no chin rest Trevor cause the old fiddle I have, which my great grandfather played, has had most of the varnish worn away from the corner where his chin sat, obviously directly on the instrument.
Like myself he 'sported' a beard, so I guess the sweat combined with the abrasive nature of his beard rubbing back & forward, was enough to remove it.
I do use a Chin Rest.
I have been playing fiddle for over thirty years & have never used a shoulder rest.
Rightly or wrongly I'm quite happy without one as I have never been tempted to explore that Gobi Desert that exists up past first position.
I do anything for an easy life!
Anytime a tune ventures up there, I just explore the low octave, which is a common practice in Donegal & Derry anyway.
How did long-neck people in the Baroque era cope without shoulder rests? Probably by not playing the fiddle.
I have a combination of somewhat long neck, somewhat small chin and somewhat low shoulders. If I played without a shoulder rest, it would be a chiropractic nightmare.
Possibly the cello? Reminds me of the story of the new intake of boys at a school. They were lined up in order of size and the tallest was told "You're going to learn to play the double bass in the school orchestra". I don't think I've seen any double bass player, male or female, who isn't a bit larger than average.
Anyway, the shoulder rest is a modern invention, probably not more than about 60 years old, and, within my memory, not coming into general use until the late 1950's. So how did violinists cope in the preceding centuries? As I said, the violin rested on the collar bone, possibly with an extra layer of cloth to suit individual requirements. Since the 1820's violinists with unusually long lecks would have been able to use a chinrest made for them, so the individual problem would have been solved. Before the chinrest many violinists played without any contact of the chin with the instrument, so the player's neck length then would have been largely immaterial.
When I was in, oh, maybe third grade (around 1955), the local high school put on a recruitment drive to build a school band (marching band, of course) and the band director visited the elementary school to screen prospective players and start up a junior band. He lined us up and walked down the line examining our lips. I was assigned to trombone. Who knows where my life might have gone if my parents could have afforded the instrument and uniform? I shudder to think.
So, if your chin doesn’t contact the fiddle, do you stabilize it just with the left hand or maybe press it slightly into the neck? I’ll have to experiment with this. I have some friends who can play quite well with the fiddle held low and tucked into the arm, like some of the old Appalachian players. One of them never plays any other way. I can’t stand the way this restricts my hand.
My late teacher who was trained to the nth degree at Julliard insisted I not use a shoulder rest, and I developed nerve damage in the back of my neck and shoulder on the left from tightening muscles and holding it that way for many years. I find the shoulder rest frees the left hand and allows me and my students to scoot around the fingerboard with ease; it keeps the fiddle stable on the shoulder, helps prevent the left hand from cocking up under the neck of the violin in order to support it, and encourages the player not to point the scroll down toward the ground, which makes a good tone tougher to achieve because the bow is more likely to slide forward. There are so many kinds of shoulder rests now that I would think one would be just right for each individual player.
Just tried playing without a shoulder rest at a session tonight and I loved the sound of the fiddle without it. I have a long neck and have always felt that a shoulder rest is the solution. I am entertaining doubts now.
Congrats Jode. Glad to hear you've left the Violin behind & joined the ranks of the 'Fiddlers'! Yeeee Haaaa.............
There's just something about the pose of a player with a shoulder rest that just screams 'exhibitionist' & 'Poser' to me! Just doesn't look right somehow in a trad session!
thier1754's experience illustrates what common sense suggests-we don't all have the same build,something which i hope teachers these days are taking much more into account.
but i would still recommend experimenting without a rest if you can and see how it works out.
re ptarmigan's exhibitionists,i'll just say that there's quite a few posers without shoulder rests out there as well...
Here here, ursus! I'm honest, I'm modest, and I don't pose; I simply like to be pain free and have as much facility in the left hand as possible. So there, Ptarmigan *thier gives Ptarmigan a loud raspberry...* :0D ... JK...
Interesting stuff about the Baroque bow up there but didn't mention the fact that the Baroque bow was haired really slack and the player put his/her thumb UNDER the hair. Doing this with a Baroque bow which is arched opposite to a modern Tourte type bow (like a bow and arrow bow) means the player can vary the tension of the hair by squeezing. Thus the Baroque bow can be made slack enough to easily play double, triple or even quadruple stops (ie four-string chords.) The player could then squeeze and tighten the bow hair to play single-note runs cleanly. With the advent of orchestral music in the 18th C there was less need to play chords (more instruments in the band) and soloists needed to project, which is why modern violins are louder than Baroque and older instruments and we use the Tourte bow, which is excellent for power, but not much cop for chords.
I have a nice Baroque fiddle but finding a decent Baroque bow to go with it without selling my kids is the problem..........
RuairidhMor, could you elaborate a bit on that bow grip and where you got the information?
I'm asking because I know many of the local professional baroque players, basically ran an early music society for about ten years and have Andrew Manze, Rachel Podger, Simon Standage etc in the record collection and I've never seen anyone play with the thumb under the hair, even on very early bows with clip-in frogs. I have a vague memory of seeing one etching of a late Renaissance player with the thumb under the hair with an extremely short bow the likes of which I've not seen anywhere else, so I'm wondering if this is a short-lived or regional thing.
My baroque bow and every other one I've seen has had screw-tensioned hair and though not as taut as a modern bow, it isn't and doesn't need to be tensioned by the players thumb. Bow grip is up on the stick, though generally further towards the pointy end than for the modern bow grip. Even for gamba playing, where the player hooks the ring finger over the hair with the underhand grip, the finger tensioning is more to accentuate attack than to put basic tension on the hair.
I agree with you on the prices ... there are some bee-youtiful bows out there, though.
I use 2 different shoulder rests, I badly damaged my shoulder some years ago to the point were I was threatened with pinning. I now use bare, pad or a menuhin student rest. I even switch between a 4/4 and a 3/4 bow occasionally, I am classically trained, but tend to use the top of the bow. I have a BOSOM and it tends to get in the way sometimes.
Sorry for not responding sooner, I've been away. I thought it was pretty common knowledge that early players used their
thumbs to increase bow tension, but here are a couple of links Check out M. Bach and his modern version, the last link.
New to violin(4 weeks). New to this site. I've been playing guitar for years though so the thing I'm still getting used to is the bow rather than the fingering. I just play all the melodies I know on guitar for now.
I just wanted to mention that my chinrest felt very large to me (I call it the "whale tail") so I took it off two days ago. The violin now feels much more comfortable to me and the tone of my notes instantly warmed. My most critical (although loving) critic - my wife - told me that's the first time she thought my violin playing actually sounded pleasent.
If there's a technical draw back to not having a chinrest please pass on the information. I'll just pick up a smaller one if one is really recommended.
here's my 2 cents:
you can nerd out about this until judgement day, and when it's all said and done, there is no "right" answer.
And I really think everyone has extremely valid points, and these are absolutely all things that people should take into consideration.
The most important end result is that everyone finds out what works best for them.
what feels right? what sounds the best?
we are all built as differently as our instruments.
To expand on the Jerry Holland reference: take a look at the great CB players. Jerry holds his bow way different than say Natalie MacMaster. Buddy Macmaster outright holds his fiddle differently, and slightly wacky.
Ashley MacIsaac uses 10x more bow than Brenda Stubbert. And they all sound amazing.
Yet would any of you have the audacity to tell these players that they are doing something "wrong?"
I hate shoulder rests, but I'm not going to give someone a hard time for using one (except in good humour maybe).
the only time it's wrong is if you're injuring yourself.
Personally, I hold my bow differently on different tunes. Primarily with the CB and Scottish tunes, I am up on the stick a little. Irish Reels I find myself automatically on the frog more. Old Time or Bluegrass is more Frog. I didn't even realize I was doing this at first. it just sort of happened.
We are all as different as our instruments.
Try it all and find out what works for you.
I * barely * use my chinrest. I end up centering over the tailpiece mostly. This is another thing I hadn't noticed before, and one of my bandmates pointed it out to me. I have to wonder if it has something to do with the vibrations, because when in the studio I have to keep the headphones off of one ear or everything goes wonky.
and on a slightly related note as far as general instrument holding techniques - has anyone ever seen the way Kinnon Beaton holds his fiddle??? it's crazy!!! and awesome because I have a special place in my heart for rebels - and the man sounds wicked good ;)
you should use the chinrest because it keeps you from getting a bad neck. the way you hold your bow is totally up to you. the placement of the bow on the string is what really gets the sound out. i've played now for about 7 or 8 years and i found out the hard way of not using a chinrest. don't ever be afriad to try out a new song in front of an audience. remember, '' the greatest risk of all is not taking any risk.''
i simply cant get it right
i was first taught classical violin but have now started folk style fiddle and in classical they teach you to bow with your arm whereas i am now being told by my folk tutor to bow with my wrist
i simply can't get it right has any one got any tips?
samh--"Bow with the arm" versus "bow with the wrist" sounds oversimplified to me. And--strangely--more complicated than it needs to be, too.
My suggestion: use your ears, and do whatever works to get the *sound* you want to hear. Example: I was working on a slow reel, and just could not get the smooth stream of notes that I heard on the recording. Then my teacher told me I should slur when crossing strings, and across the bar lines (I had some classical exposure as a kid, and was playing with too many single bows). It seemed very unnatural to me at first, but I worked on it, and sure enough it worked.
fiddle bow technique
fiddle bow technique
Of course it is a stupid question, but..I hold the fiddle bow at the end, like most classically taught players. Folk fiddlers all hold it along the bow. What is the advantage of this? I presume it makes something easier or smoother or better. But what? If it has an advantage then I'm keen to give it a go, but I'm not sure what I'm looking for. However I only play folk and so when in Rome...
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by naclachan
Re: fiddle bow technique
This is not a stupid question, BUT: there' s plenty of folk fiddlers with a more or less classical bow grip (myself included).
It would be interesting to hear from those that have tried it both ways.
BTW, baroque violinists also hold it along the bow.
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by Henk Bos
Re: fiddle bow technique
Holding the bow up away from the frog is simply easier when you are learning, that's all. It balances easier and it wobbles less. However, once you get past the initial feeling of holding an alien in your hand, it has nothing going for it whatsoever.
I played like this for maybe 10 years and was perfectly happy with the results. But I found myself with a few months to spare and I thought I'd re-train myself out of a lot of "traditional" bad habits; the three main ones being,
holding the palm of my left hand parallel to the neck while gripping the nut tightly in the crook of my thumb and forefinger,
not using a shoulder rest,
and holding the bow away from the frog.
It took the few months to get as good as I was with the bad techniques, but oh boy, once those hurdles were over, what an exponential difference they have made to my playing, in almost every respect.
It's basically down to how much actual technique you actually "need" to play this music. Because the answer is "hardly any really", you come across some absolutely terrific players with dreadful technique. But me? I'm after an easy life, and a bit of technique really does make things a hell of a lot simpler in the long run.
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: fiddle bow technique
michael,i would n't dismiss playing without a shoulder rest out of hand although if this works for you and others,fair enough.everyone has a different build.
as most jigs/reels etc can be played in first position the shoulder rest becomes redundant for me at least.
but you're dead right when you say that a bit of technique can save trouble and make for an easier life( just on the physical side alone)
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by biggus dave
Re: fiddle bow technique
That's an interesting story Michael, though I'm not sure that everyone would second you with calling it 'bad habits' (I would, but then, I never played in a different way, so I don't want to condemn a way of playing I never really tried).
Far from all classical players use a shoulder rest! It' s a minority, but it's a growing minority, I think.
Forgot to mention in my earlier post that the baroque bow of course is different from the 'modern' bow. Different balance too, I guess.
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by Henk Bos
Re: fiddle bow technique
I started at the frog then I found that my hand kept creeping up the length of the stick. When I upgraded my bow my hand went back down to the frog.
For me I find that when playing with my hand at the frog, I have a larger range of techniques that I can use. My playing is more powerful and expressive while still being able to manage fast bowings, bowed triplets etc.
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by iampeterfonda
Re: fiddle bow technique
my theory is that classical musicians use the entire range of motion down to the frog. Fiddlers rarely, if ever, play down there or need that part of the bow. But I don't think it matters too much.
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by elvis2440
Re: fiddle bow technique
I've tried holding the bow up the stick a ways, and I always revert back to the frog because I can't say I gain anything up the stick. Playing from the frog gives you more bow to use and it also seems easier to control a wider range of dynamics from the frog.
In short, anything I can do from the frog, I can do from up the stick. But the reverse isn't true.
I rarely see fiddlers holding the bow up the stick these days--I'd say the frog hold is much more common, and the norm among the "big name" players.
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: fiddle bow technique
Shoulder rest isn't needed for playing out of first position either. Look at any of the baroquers, (as well as a load of fine fiddlers.) I think the crucial "restricting" (aka "bad") habit there is the hand bent back so the heel of the hand touches the end of the fiddle body.
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by TomB-R
Re: fiddle bow technique
naclachan, welcome to this crazy mustard board. I trust you'll get all your musical problems solved by the resident experts here.
As for me, I do hold the bow very close to the Frog, but not in the classic, 'classical' grip.
It's just that the two Fiddlers who's Bow styles impressed me the most, when I was learning, both held their bow by the frog - lucky me I'd say, cause it is obvious that you have the use of more of the bow if you control it from the end.
We had an Appalachian fiddler join us a few Friday nights ago & he played a couple of his favourite songs/tunes from home.
I call them that deliberately because he sang & played & played & sang his way through each of them using only a few inches at the centre of the bow.
They were great fun to play along with but it was very obvious that he used & needed very little of the bow to do what he was doing so he managed fine with his grip.
Well known Appalachian/Bluegrass fiddler in Belfast actually just uses a 3/4 bow as, I guess, he finds he doesn't need a long bow for that music & his style of playing.
With gripping the bow away from the frog, I'd say the main problem would come when you were looking for really long notes, as on airs & suchlike.
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: fiddle bow technique
shoulder rests are not critical of course, but typically some sort of way of elevating the instrument to your chin rather thatn dipping your head into the instrument is preferred..whether this is a rest, or a pad under the coat, like the old classical players, Heifitz, Oistrakh, Szeryng did. Menuhin did not use a pad or a rest though...go figure.
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by Sunnybear
Re: fiddle bow technique
People that play up the bow are just bad people. They don't deserve to live. Now that I have your attention, I'm just kidding. I think playing up the bow just plain limits your bowing capabilities. I would suggest everyone learn to play from the frog. I have a friend that is a great fiddle player that moved up the bow after years of playin, just to look more "old style" when performing on stage. I was surprised to hear so many people comment on this. i heard "wow, look how he holds the bow" or "he must be a real old school fiddler" and remarks like that. So I would say if you thikn it's cool, play up the bow. If you want to have the full range of the bow, play at the frog.
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by t4kne
Re: fiddle bow technique
Heard somebody ask Jerry Holland about this, as he has an unusual up-the-bow sort of hold; his reply, in dry humor format, was, go ahead and learn the classical way, it won't hold you back any.
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by full measure
Re: fiddle bow technique
Jerry's hold is utterly bizarre... it doesn't look like he should be able to get any power, control, speed, or tone... and yet he's brilliant.
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by drone
Re: fiddle bow technique
The downside of doing something that makes you look like "a real old school fiddler" is that it can also look highly pretentious and affected.
# Posted on February 5th 2006 by TomB-R
Re: fiddle bow technique
A downside of holding a modern bow more then a centimetre or two up from the frog is that doing so will reduce the volume of sound you can get out of the instrument. I'm not going to be any more specific, but I've seen a very "good" and extraordinary example of that effect. The fiddle isn't one of the loudest of instruments, so why make it quieter?
The only good reason I can think of holding a modern bow 1 or 2 centimetres from the frog is to get the correct balance. This may be an issue with carbon fibre bows where the sticks are all identical but the balance of individual bows can differ due to non-identical frogs (which are natural wood); a good player will naturally compensate by moving his hand up the stick a little.
If you want to bow in the baroque way why not get a baroque bow and do the job properly?
# Posted on February 5th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: fiddle bow technique
I hold my bow in the classical style because that is how I was taught. I have tried playing higher up on the bow just for fun and I do feel that it affects the sound that I get but I haven't experimented enough to decide whether I like the new sound. And when I'm tired I revert to my classical training.
I do not play with a shoulder rest and have never had any problems changing positions on the fiddle. I like to be able to feel the resonance of the sound. And I've never had any problems with the heel of my hand touching the body of the fiddle. I don't play as high up on my shoulder as some classical musicians but I've never had any problems related to the lack of shoulder rest so I'd hesitate to call this a bad habit - traditional or not.
# Posted on February 5th 2006 by musicfan
Re: fiddle bow technique
I equally hold my bow in the classical style with some slight variations.
I think some tradtional players hold the bow up the stick because a) they've seen other people do it and b) because it can give you an 'on the string' sound which works well for some music.
However if you want to play a wide range of different styles the classical grip has to be the way to go.
# Posted on February 5th 2006 by scotfiddle
Re: fiddle bow technique
am i right in my gleanings from past posts that the baroque bow is shorter and/or lighter? Does it automaticly sound different, and if so, how? just faster? different tone?
I am kind of struggling with bow grip lately for some reason, my hand keeps ending up a centimeter off the frog toward the tip and my thumb has worn a little nick in the leather binding there.
I often get poor tone, I am not a very skilled player, but I'm trying to learn to listen for differences, so this is an interesting discussion for me.
There's so much to think about all at once when fiddling, I'm afraid my brain and ears are not as nimble as they once were, but derned if I'll give up now!
# Posted on February 5th 2006 by full measure
Re: fiddle bow technique
full measure..typically the fleshy part of your thumb, not the pad, should rest between the end of the frog and the leather...everybody has different structure as to thum size and muscle twitch and the flexibility of thumb (and fingers and everything else) so there is no real one good position...just make sure your hand is nice and relaxed...your bow grip should not be a grip at all..the bow should be held between the thum and middle finger, basically, with the pinky and first finger asting as fulcrum/levers...the 2nd and 3rd finger should be nice and relaxed against the frog...on a downbow your pinky may come off the top of the bow with it regaining position resting nice and curved on top of the bow as the stroke approaches mid bow coming up...the wrist should not come up towards your chin, but sort of remain on an even plane with the thumb...try this..place your hand on a table...nice and relaxed, not flat out with the palm down, but with your fingers curled and resting on the tips..your thumb automatically will rest on the table..now move your wrist back and forth keeping your elbow still..this is the motion to emulate with the bow stroke
# Posted on February 5th 2006 by Sunnybear
Re: fiddle bow technique
Naclachan, and all dear folk here, when considering this question (esp. using shoulder rest or not) shouldn't a person think about his/her own body size? We are (obviously) so differently built -- length of neck, arms and hands surely should be considered when learning/playing; extremes, anyway.
I always tell students to close their eyes and really think about how playing feels and to experiment with different positions. woops this is almost sounding smutty...
# Posted on February 5th 2006 by suzique
Re: fiddle bow technique
well that's true, my thumb that holds the bow is very large.
# Posted on February 5th 2006 by full measure
Re: fiddle bow technique
The baroque music period extended for about 150 years from the early 1600's to the 1750's. The first baroque bows were about half the size of modern bows but developed over the period, getting longer and heavier, with more hairs. But what all baroque bows had in common was that the middle of the stick was always furthest from the hair (unlike the modern bow where the opposite is the case).
The effect of the shape of the baroque bow is that if you make a long bow-stroke with constant speed and pressure the tone will start relatively softly at the end of the bow, get louder towards the middle and die away towards the other end (a rather vocal style, in fact). The middle of the baroque bow is best for playing fast because the bow feels light there and tends to take care of its own articulation. That is one reason, incidentally, why in baroque times they never bothered to indicate in the music whether to use an up bow or down bow. There was a fairly general rule in dance music of the time that the first beat of the bar, and every other strong beat within the bar, was to be played with a down bow.
It hardly needs to be repeated that Irish traditional dance music has its antecedents in the baroque.
# Posted on February 5th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: fiddle bow technique
trevor, thanks, that makes sense. Have you seen this grip where the thumb is on the bow hair putting tension directly on it?
# Posted on February 5th 2006 by full measure
Re: fiddle bow technique
The further up the stick you hold the bow, the less you have available to use... and as Kevin Burke once remarked ... "you paid for it"!!! (Bow GRIP? AAAAAAAAARGH!!!!!)
# Posted on February 5th 2006 by five
Re: fiddle bow technique
The idea of putting the thumb on the bow hair to put tension on it is one best forgotten. It arose out of a misunderstanding of the old 17c-early 18c "French grip" where the thumb was under the frog and the 4th finger (pinky) was under the stick. The "French grip" died out out when it became obvious it wasn't all that effective for the more advanced playing. The idea of using the thumb to tension the hair arose again in the first quarter of the 20c in the German invention of the "Bach bow", which has little or no basis in baroque usage.
# Posted on February 5th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: fiddle bow technique
I disagree with the idea that the fiddle doesn't sound as good when you choke up on the bow I think of Cathal Hayden, who never holds the bow by the frog. I've played mostly Appalachian/old time music and I have tried to break my bad habits by using a shoulder rest, which always seems to fall off while I'm playing. When I try holding the bow by the frog, it doesn't feel right to me... I also have the bad habit of holding the neck of the violin in my palm; that's the most limiting of my bad habits. The best part of choking up on the bow is in a crowded session, when you aren't able to use long bow strokes.
# Posted on February 6th 2006 by caer
Re: fiddle bow technique
Cripes... if it makes you feel good. Do it that way.
# Posted on February 6th 2006 by tulloch
Re: fiddle bow technique
I'm mystified at the suggestion that nobody really needs a shoulder rest. Or did I misread something?
# Posted on February 6th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: fiddle bow technique
Some digressive thoughts on the subjects of shoulder rests and chinrests.
It's worth noting that neither was around in the baroque era, or the classical for that matter. The shoulder rest is a 20c phenomenon (just after WW2 I believe) - and many of the really great names of the time never used one. The chinrest was invented by the violinist-composer Spohr in the 1820's, right at the end of the classical period.
How did players cope without these modern aids?
As Ecumenical has pointed out, before shoulder rests arrived on the scene the fiddle would have rested lightly on the collar bone, although no doubt some players might have used a cloth pad or the turned-over lapel of their coat. Speaking personally, I used a shoulder rest for the first few months of playing the fiddle and couldn't get on with it at all - it restricted my movement far too much and made my neck ache. So I ditched it and haven't looked back since. Holding the instrument feels much freer and effortless, and the tone seems better. It's worth pointing out that there is now a significant number of players in both classical and folk genres who now play without shoulder rests or even chinrests (the fiddle player in "Red Priest" is a good example of doing without both aids).
Today, playing deliberately without a chinrest is quite an interesting experience! In baroque times there were two styles: the player's chin was generally kept in contact with the belly (or perhaps the tailpiece) of the fiddle, or out of contact.
If you kept your chin on the belly of the instrument it would dampen the resonance of the instrument to a certain extent (try this), and would damage the varnish over time unless you used a protective cloth.
If the player kept his chin out of contact with the instrument he would be much freer to move his head in any direction and look around. This would imply a virtual complete lack of stress in the neck and shoulder muscles, something which plagues many modern players. This is all tied in with the fiddle resting on the collar bone, and the fact that baroque fiddle playing didn't have the large number of left-hand positional changes that are characteristic of the post-baroque eras. In fact, in the early baroque period the highest note would have been the C on the E-string, played with an extended 4th finger (pinky) in the 1st position. This is the situation today with 99.9% of Irish traditional fiddle music. If 1st position is all you're ever going to use then there really is no need for a chinrest.
Without chin contact it gets more interesting when you start playing baroque music that goes up the fingerboard. For most of it, the 4th position is as high as you'll need, although Bach goes up to the 7th once or twice, and there is a handful of virtuoso concertos that go even higher. Going up is easy enough. Coming back down safely is another matter. There are different ways of doing it, all of which work, the choice depending on the player. One way is to briefly touch the chin down on the tailpiece as you come back down. Another is to briefly touch the chin down on the belly on the E-string side of the tailpiece. When touching either the tailpiece or the treble side of the belly with the chin to stabilise the instrument the player may find that he naturally raises his left shoulder briefly under the fiddle to support it.
A third way of moving round the positions was to "walk" the left hand up and down the neck using the thumb and fingers, the essential point being that you never move the thumb and fingers simultaneously. Using this method means that the fiddle is at all times as stable as it is in the 1st position, but it obviously needs more practice than the first two methods.
I feel that most fiddle players would benefit with experimenting for a little while with playing without a shoulder rest, and possibly even without a chinrest, the idea being to keep in touch with the baroque roots of the music we play. Who knows, you may find after a trial that you actually prefer to play without a shoulder rest - or even a chinrest.
If you decide to take off the chinrest as an experiment I suggest that a good way to support the fiddle, as I have found, is to have the instrument resting on the collarbone and to let the tailpiece rest gently against the left side of your chin. That is, your chin will be on the treble side of the tailpiece but not actually touching the belly of the instrument (except when you're into the high-position work I've mentioned above). This is a stable position and prevents any sliding of the instrument downwards towards your right.
Advantages of playing without shoulder rest and/or chinrest? The instrument feels lighter and easier to hold. The tone resonates better, and sounds more immediate to the player, because there is no "scaffolding" to dampen the vibrations or get in the way of the sound. There is no "scaffolding" to fall off, become loose, or rattle or buzz (the bane of many violinists). There is no spending a lot of time - and money - in deciding which is the best shoulder rest/chinrest combination for you, and then wondering afterwards if you really have made the right and final choice. When you get used to a "bare" fiddle you feel muscularly more relaxed, and this is reflected in your playing.
I found out the hard way how to play without a chinrest a couple of years ago at the Scoil Eigse at Clonmel. In the middel of a workshop the thread stripped on one of the tie rods of my chinrest and I had to take it off. I found I could still play without it after a bit of on-the-hoof experimenting (see my advice a couple of paragraphs back), and saw no reason to hunt around for an immediate replacement in Clonmel. Now, I tend to alternate between chinrest and no chinrest, depending how I feel, although I'm using the chinrest less frequently now.
# Posted on February 6th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: fiddle bow technique
Interesting you should mention no chin rest Trevor cause the old fiddle I have, which my great grandfather played, has had most of the varnish worn away from the corner where his chin sat, obviously directly on the instrument.
Like myself he 'sported' a beard, so I guess the sweat combined with the abrasive nature of his beard rubbing back & forward, was enough to remove it.
I do use a Chin Rest.
I have been playing fiddle for over thirty years & have never used a shoulder rest.
Rightly or wrongly I'm quite happy without one as I have never been tempted to explore that Gobi Desert that exists up past first position.
I do anything for an easy life!
Anytime a tune ventures up there, I just explore the low octave, which is a common practice in Donegal & Derry anyway.
# Posted on February 6th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: fiddle bow technique
How did long-neck people in the Baroque era cope without shoulder rests? Probably by not playing the fiddle.
I have a combination of somewhat long neck, somewhat small chin and somewhat low shoulders. If I played without a shoulder rest, it would be a chiropractic nightmare.
# Posted on February 6th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: fiddle bow technique
Possibly the cello? Reminds me of the story of the new intake of boys at a school. They were lined up in order of size and the tallest was told "You're going to learn to play the double bass in the school orchestra". I don't think I've seen any double bass player, male or female, who isn't a bit larger than average.
Anyway, the shoulder rest is a modern invention, probably not more than about 60 years old, and, within my memory, not coming into general use until the late 1950's. So how did violinists cope in the preceding centuries? As I said, the violin rested on the collar bone, possibly with an extra layer of cloth to suit individual requirements. Since the 1820's violinists with unusually long lecks would have been able to use a chinrest made for them, so the individual problem would have been solved. Before the chinrest many violinists played without any contact of the chin with the instrument, so the player's neck length then would have been largely immaterial.
# Posted on February 6th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: fiddle bow technique
oops, "necks", not "lecks"!
# Posted on February 6th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: fiddle bow technique
When I was in, oh, maybe third grade (around 1955), the local high school put on a recruitment drive to build a school band (marching band, of course) and the band director visited the elementary school to screen prospective players and start up a junior band. He lined us up and walked down the line examining our lips. I was assigned to trombone. Who knows where my life might have gone if my parents could have afforded the instrument and uniform? I shudder to think.
So, if your chin doesn’t contact the fiddle, do you stabilize it just with the left hand or maybe press it slightly into the neck? I’ll have to experiment with this. I have some friends who can play quite well with the fiddle held low and tucked into the arm, like some of the old Appalachian players. One of them never plays any other way. I can’t stand the way this restricts my hand.
# Posted on February 6th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: fiddle bow technique
We can always go one better here!
http://musiced.about.com/od/toppicksandreviews/ss/musicaltoys_8.htm
# Posted on February 6th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: fiddle bow technique
Who was it once said - "Ask, & ye shall receive"?
Who was it once said - "Ask a silly question"?
"join the army and play in the marching band" - Aye, you would need to take a lot of Aspirin-ations if you had to listen to much of that music!
# Posted on February 7th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: fiddle bow technique
Speaking of links 'twbaem' - Can any of you 'rest experts' tell me which size of shoulder rest this lady needs:
http://www.thefunnypage.com/neck/
# Posted on February 7th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: fiddle bow technique
My late teacher who was trained to the nth degree at Julliard insisted I not use a shoulder rest, and I developed nerve damage in the back of my neck and shoulder on the left from tightening muscles and holding it that way for many years. I find the shoulder rest frees the left hand and allows me and my students to scoot around the fingerboard with ease; it keeps the fiddle stable on the shoulder, helps prevent the left hand from cocking up under the neck of the violin in order to support it, and encourages the player not to point the scroll down toward the ground, which makes a good tone tougher to achieve because the bow is more likely to slide forward. There are so many kinds of shoulder rests now that I would think one would be just right for each individual player.
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by thier1754
Re: fiddle bow technique
Just tried playing without a shoulder rest at a session tonight and I loved the sound of the fiddle without it. I have a long neck and have always felt that a shoulder rest is the solution. I am entertaining doubts now.
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by Jode
Re: fiddle bow technique
Congrats Jode. Glad to hear you've left the Violin behind & joined the ranks of the 'Fiddlers'! Yeeee Haaaa.............
There's just something about the pose of a player with a shoulder rest that just screams 'exhibitionist' & 'Poser' to me! Just doesn't look right somehow in a trad session!
Give me a good honest, modest Fiddler every time.
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: fiddle bow technique
thier1754's experience illustrates what common sense suggests-we don't all have the same build,something which i hope teachers these days are taking much more into account.
but i would still recommend experimenting without a rest if you can and see how it works out.
re ptarmigan's exhibitionists,i'll just say that there's quite a few posers without shoulder rests out there as well...
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by biggus dave
Re: fiddle bow technique
ha, one of the reasons I got a shoulder rest was because I was sick of posing all the time
# Posted on February 9th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: fiddle bow technique
Here here, ursus! I'm honest, I'm modest, and I don't pose; I simply like to be pain free and have as much facility in the left hand as possible. So there, Ptarmigan *thier gives Ptarmigan a loud raspberry...* :0D ... JK...
# Posted on February 10th 2006 by thier1754
Re: fiddle bow technique
Hey, ............did you have to spit all over me, in the process! Wrong time of year for Raspberries, over here anyway.
Just for the record thier, here's a photo of a dude who looks like he's totally relaxed & free of pain:
http://www.bubbaguitar.com/articles/orandoshep.html
[ thanks to 'Full Measure' for the link ]
# Posted on February 15th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: fiddle bow technique
P.S. This guy certainly has no need of a Chin or Shoulder rest!
# Posted on February 15th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: fiddle bow technique
Interesting stuff about the Baroque bow up there but didn't mention the fact that the Baroque bow was haired really slack and the player put his/her thumb UNDER the hair. Doing this with a Baroque bow which is arched opposite to a modern Tourte type bow (like a bow and arrow bow) means the player can vary the tension of the hair by squeezing. Thus the Baroque bow can be made slack enough to easily play double, triple or even quadruple stops (ie four-string chords.) The player could then squeeze and tighten the bow hair to play single-note runs cleanly. With the advent of orchestral music in the 18th C there was less need to play chords (more instruments in the band) and soloists needed to project, which is why modern violins are louder than Baroque and older instruments and we use the Tourte bow, which is excellent for power, but not much cop for chords.
I have a nice Baroque fiddle but finding a decent Baroque bow to go with it without selling my kids is the problem..........
# Posted on May 1st 2006 by RuairidhMor
Re: fiddle bow technique
RuairidhMor, could you elaborate a bit on that bow grip and where you got the information?
I'm asking because I know many of the local professional baroque players, basically ran an early music society for about ten years and have Andrew Manze, Rachel Podger, Simon Standage etc in the record collection and I've never seen anyone play with the thumb under the hair, even on very early bows with clip-in frogs. I have a vague memory of seeing one etching of a late Renaissance player with the thumb under the hair with an extremely short bow the likes of which I've not seen anywhere else, so I'm wondering if this is a short-lived or regional thing.
My baroque bow and every other one I've seen has had screw-tensioned hair and though not as taut as a modern bow, it isn't and doesn't need to be tensioned by the players thumb. Bow grip is up on the stick, though generally further towards the pointy end than for the modern bow grip. Even for gamba playing, where the player hooks the ring finger over the hair with the underhand grip, the finger tensioning is more to accentuate attack than to put basic tension on the hair.
I agree with you on the prices ... there are some bee-youtiful bows out there, though.
# Posted on May 1st 2006 by Tish
Re: fiddle bow technique
Ah, just noticed Trevor's post above re misunderstandings and French grip ... that French grip story was ringing bells at the back of my mind.
# Posted on May 1st 2006 by Tish
Re: fiddle bow technique
I use 2 different shoulder rests, I badly damaged my shoulder some years ago to the point were I was threatened with pinning. I now use bare, pad or a menuhin student rest. I even switch between a 4/4 and a 3/4 bow occasionally, I am classically trained, but tend to use the top of the bow. I have a BOSOM and it tends to get in the way sometimes.
# Posted on May 1st 2006 by Joze
Re: fiddle bow technique
To Tish
Sorry for not responding sooner, I've been away. I thought it was pretty common knowledge that early players used their
thumbs to increase bow tension, but here are a couple of links Check out M. Bach and his modern version, the last link.
http://www.madehow.com/Volume-2/Violin-Bow.html
http://www.zvonar.com/PamelaGoldsmith/articles/Transitional_Bowing.html
And if you go here
http://www.musiciansgallery.com/start/makers/bach_bogen.html
You will see a modern take on the system made by a French luthier.
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by RuairidhMor
Re: fiddle bow technique
New to violin(4 weeks). New to this site. I've been playing guitar for years though so the thing I'm still getting used to is the bow rather than the fingering. I just play all the melodies I know on guitar for now.
I just wanted to mention that my chinrest felt very large to me (I call it the "whale tail") so I took it off two days ago. The violin now feels much more comfortable to me and the tone of my notes instantly warmed. My most critical (although loving) critic - my wife - told me that's the first time she thought my violin playing actually sounded pleasent.
If there's a technical draw back to not having a chinrest please pass on the information. I'll just pick up a smaller one if one is really recommended.
Cheers
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by iam0kru
Re: fiddle bow technique
here's my 2 cents:
you can nerd out about this until judgement day, and when it's all said and done, there is no "right" answer.
And I really think everyone has extremely valid points, and these are absolutely all things that people should take into consideration.
The most important end result is that everyone finds out what works best for them.
what feels right? what sounds the best?
we are all built as differently as our instruments.
To expand on the Jerry Holland reference: take a look at the great CB players. Jerry holds his bow way different than say Natalie MacMaster. Buddy Macmaster outright holds his fiddle differently, and slightly wacky.
Ashley MacIsaac uses 10x more bow than Brenda Stubbert. And they all sound amazing.
Yet would any of you have the audacity to tell these players that they are doing something "wrong?"
I hate shoulder rests, but I'm not going to give someone a hard time for using one (except in good humour maybe).
the only time it's wrong is if you're injuring yourself.
Personally, I hold my bow differently on different tunes. Primarily with the CB and Scottish tunes, I am up on the stick a little. Irish Reels I find myself automatically on the frog more. Old Time or Bluegrass is more Frog. I didn't even realize I was doing this at first. it just sort of happened.
We are all as different as our instruments.
Try it all and find out what works for you.
# Posted on February 20th 2007 by ainefidileir
Re: fiddle bow technique
I also just want to add to previous post:
I * barely * use my chinrest. I end up centering over the tailpiece mostly. This is another thing I hadn't noticed before, and one of my bandmates pointed it out to me. I have to wonder if it has something to do with the vibrations, because when in the studio I have to keep the headphones off of one ear or everything goes wonky.
and on a slightly related note as far as general instrument holding techniques - has anyone ever seen the way Kinnon Beaton holds his fiddle??? it's crazy!!! and awesome because I have a special place in my heart for rebels - and the man sounds wicked good ;)
# Posted on March 7th 2007 by ainefidileir
Re: fiddle bow technique
you should use the chinrest because it keeps you from getting a bad neck. the way you hold your bow is totally up to you. the placement of the bow on the string is what really gets the sound out. i've played now for about 7 or 8 years and i found out the hard way of not using a chinrest. don't ever be afriad to try out a new song in front of an audience. remember, '' the greatest risk of all is not taking any risk.''
# Posted on June 25th 2007 by blonde
Re: fiddle bow technique
i simply cant get it right
i was first taught classical violin but have now started folk style fiddle and in classical they teach you to bow with your arm whereas i am now being told by my folk tutor to bow with my wrist
i simply can't get it right has any one got any tips?
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by samh
Re: fiddle bow technique
samh--"Bow with the arm" versus "bow with the wrist" sounds oversimplified to me. And--strangely--more complicated than it needs to be, too.
My suggestion: use your ears, and do whatever works to get the *sound* you want to hear. Example: I was working on a slow reel, and just could not get the smooth stream of notes that I heard on the recording. Then my teacher told me I should slur when crossing strings, and across the bar lines (I had some classical exposure as a kid, and was playing with too many single bows). It seemed very unnatural to me at first, but I worked on it, and sure enough it worked.
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by mickray