It reminded me of how I never cycled to school. Although I was extremely fit and very fast, and the 7 miles each way on a daily basis would have been ideal in some ways, I never allowed my cycling for pleasure to become mired in either the chore of workaday transportation, nor in the unseemly business of competition. I kept it for pleasure.
I do the same now with music, and this article made me glad to have chosen the path that chosen I have.
I was surprised at how much they claimed orchestra players made in the US, nobody I know is at that pay level. They must be talking big orchestras in big cities, I live in a small town.
Fortunately nobody is trying to corrupt my pleasure with large sums.
Dave's post does make me think of my friend who started playing as a kid and has always been glad his parents didn't jump in with lessons and pressure, or even much praise; it made the music his own, something he could pursue at his own direction. I guess I'm doing the same, I just started at a much later stage in life. I'll stick to my living room and the local coffeehouse/pub place. It gives me great joy, though it doesn't do a lot for my sex life, see previous thread...
Reading the Guardian article reminds me of an interview with Paddy Glackin where he described how despite being in at the start of the Bothy Band he made a conscious decision not to be a full time professional musician, (but work for RTE etc instead.) He said he'd not regretted it, and reckoned his enjoyment of the music was greater for that choice.
Hmm. I like the way I only ever cycle as trasportation, to comute or go out to a session or go shopping or anything so long as it's not just for pleasure. Why cycle for pleasure when there are places to go?
Perhaps you need something to stimulate you.
Imagine me cycling and playing the bodhran!
Or cycling for pleasure after going to buy a custom built bodhran with a picture of a little man all in green on the skin and my name burned in runes round the rim!
I used to really enjoy playing in my classical orchestra until I was introduced to traditional music. When I play Irish stuff, I play because I love it, because it's fun. But now, when I go back to classical, it seems so pointless. This may not be true in all orchestras, but atleast in mine, it seems like the only reason people play at all is to get higher chairs. There is no love in what they play, no emotion. And, like it said in the article, no room for individuality. My orchestra director goes ballistic if I play any ITM in his presence or add any ornamentation at all (I think he's appalled that his assistant concert mistress would dare play anything other than classical), and now he has adopted the slogan of "NO DEVIATION!" and he glares at me every time he says it. Thanks for the link, Dave, I really identify with that article.
Hmm, cycling and playing the bodhran? I certainly would get a great deal of pleasure when, having no hands on the handlebars, you hit a bump, and the front wheel judders out of control, and over the top you career, bodhran and all, straight into a a very prickly blackberry bush.
Those two articles go a long way toward explaining the possible lure of a swap to traditional music by 'some', and I qualify only 'some' classically trained musicians. Its not the tunes or tradition, per se, that lures these poor unfortunates, its just an opportunity to express hard earned talents not available to them in classical music. An ego thingy. The chance to be top dog, rather than well oiled cog. Haven't they been through years of intense and dedicated classical study and are deserving of hitherto unrecognised status for this!! After all, isn't there a classical technique to cover anything that might possibly come up in trad music !?!, and they have a veritable storehouse full of such honed and crafted tricks to draw on!!
But, why not settle with their baggage somewhere else?
I am glad I am driven to play the beautiful tunes because they are there begging to be played, definitely cycling for pleasure, not transportation or for pain. And I freely admit that I'm not even an average, let alone a good cyclist, but that doesn't mean I can't and am not enjoying the ride.
It would be really interesting to find out how many others on this site feel the same.
Thanks to you Dave
Old chestnut - can of worms - fell for it hook, line and sinker!
Cheers
Jan
And I am sure this is not the case, in your case Fiddlekit! The articles were about unfortunate adults, and it is possible to have room for and to love both, especially at your age. We cross posted. Your insight is fresh and terrific.
Fiddlekit, does your orchestra director rotate players in the string sections? It's not a bad idea and gives the first desk a chance to see the problems from the viewpoint of the back of the section, and vice versa. It doesn't matter so much when everyone is of a similar standard (as they are in one of my orchestras) and most players enjoy a stint in the first desk for a few rehearsals, but in other orchestras (with a somewhat broader spectrum of abilities shall we say) I've seen players from the remote fastnesses of the section suddenly elevated to the first desk, and they couldn't wait to get back to the safety and anonimity of the back desks soon enough
Fiddlekit, I'll add that basically, it seems the only way to get personal individuality in classical music nowadays is to quit the orchestra and become a soloist, not necessarily doing the big stuff like concertos, but playing music you really like with an accompanist in small venues or just for friends.
well,in no way rising to yr funny old bait,it was the tunes/company/drink that atrracted me to the world of sessions.plus,you meet a better class of person,usually.
if i had the talent my job of choice would be playing viola in a quartet as that offers ensemble playing with a bit of yr own stamp thrown in,more importantly: no conductors.
that's also a big attraction of sessions-there's hopefully no prat waving his/her arms at you all the while displaying a range of silly expressions.
in any walk of life the grass seems to be greener elsewhere but playing for a living is n't the worst thing you can do.
Trevor-re the pro/cons of back/front desk string playing -all i can say is that it's much easier if you're at the front.the only drawback is that you're that much closer to the conductor.playing at the back is n't easy.
I used to have a house in the country where I had a lush overflowing garden and loads of flowers and trellises covered in ivy and roses etc. My lawn was gorgeous and when I went to the mailbox at the end of the driveway people driving by who lived nearby would stop and chat to me about it. My friends wondered where I was hiding the little old lady that took care of it all. Even the birds would flock around the house livening things up with their singing and chirping. The thing was -- I loved gardening.
My reputation as a gardener reached legendary status among friends and family until word of my skills reached the man who had taken care of my parent’s garden for many years. He had decided to retire and offered me his business. I gladly took him up on it and began life as a professional gardener. The problem was that when I got back home, the last thing I wanted to do was garden. Needless to say, my own garden went south at an alarming rate. No longer was I stopped at the mailbox, no one was even curious about the little old lady, the birds got bored.
Later, I changed careers and became a graphic designer at an ad agency. One day someone who was supposed to produce a radio spot presented his idea – and it was woeful. The agency was in a pinch with no one else to take the guy’s place. I had just finished recording something at a local recording studio and told them I might be able to help. They gave me a budget, I grabbed the girl who worked next to me, (I knew she could sing,) and off we went. The ad we made ended up winning an award at the end of the year and put a big feather in the cap of the ad agency I worked for. (It was interesting for them since they had no capacity for radio ad production.) After the celebration, I was asked into a big meeting with the head honchos. They pitched the idea of creating a new department that I would be in charge of that would include my own state-of-the-art recording equipment. I would also receive a substantial salary increase. I told them I would think it over.
After the excitement of the idea wore off, I remembered my experience with the gardening. Was I willing to risk my love and enjoyment of music for this? I would be producing ads for banks and drinking fountain companies etc. all day and returning home with music being something I need a rest from… just like the gardening.
Well… I decided not to do it. Within a year I had moved to SF anyway so it didn’t matter. I moved there in hopes to be in the proximity of other people that play ITM and where musicians on tour from Ireland would be passing through. This turned out to be a good idea… for my music anyway. Later, I formed a group with some friends and we started doing gigs. The difference with ITM (as something I could do to make money) is that being so obscure in the US – no one could tell me what to play or how to play it. When I was doing a gig I got to just play Irish music the way I wanted to. If I came home tired and wanting to rest -- it was ok because I had spent my time on the very music I love… playing it the way I want. Doing gigs has only added to my enjoyment of the music. No one wants an ad for a bank with reels and jigs – thank God.
That's a good point, Jan. I have seen people like that, it's very sad... But I'm definitely not one of them! Trevor, we have chair tests every week, but my stand partner and I are constantly first desk. It would be kind of interesting to see things switched around, though!
I like to play some ITM in my middle-school orchestra; we did Road To Lisdoonvarna in our December concert and I taught the kids the ornamentations. (RTL lies very well on the cello; not all ITM does.)
We even used an old bodhran I found in the closet. It was paired with some Vivaldi; now, we're working on a klezmer tune.
I had classical training until I was about 15, but I had already harboured an interest in trad music of all sorts (kelzmer, ITM, scottish, cape breton, etc). I went through a phase of dismissing classical music as unfeeling and claimed it didn't give enough freedom to express oneself, but now I realise that I was wrong. Since I realised that I was wrong, I have begun to actually enjoy classical music once again, so I'm glad.
Excuse me, but I must ask again, and again until I get something more than a smart alect answer. But, since when is classical music not traditional. WHAT IS YOUR POINT. I happen to play both. Honestly, I love traditional music more thats granted. But, and this is what is not being addressed. Lets use you mode of transportation as an example. Once you learn how to keep the thing under you, and upright, does it make sense to ride seven miles, pedaling away, fiquring out easier ways to pedal, or coast going down hill, as you route your trip that is actually 3 miles away. Maybe some people like to go around in circles rather that the easiest and fastest way from point A to point B, or they just don't want to follow a well constructed road map and are trying to make excuses for it. Regardless, doggin classical music is a flat cop out, and what does the amount of money an orchestra player makes under certain working conditions have to do with the price of eggs in China. Classical is another form of traditional music that requires discipline, OH maybe thats it, any thing not requiring discipline may be a good excuse, got me there. Classical training should be the focus. Is it approximations, sloppy slides, and awkward string traditions that may entertain but fail to provide the dignity traditional music deserves that you are satisfied with. Classical training requires discipline, ear training, automaticity, O.K. so theres a word for the drunks to make fun of, and it has nothing to do with the song, type of songs, or origen of songs you enjoy playing and hearing. Bottom line is mediocracy is all the tradition means to some, keep bad mouthing classical training. But if you want to give it the dignity it deserves, learn to play it tonic, harmonic and with precision, now theres another one, maybe precision is just too much to ask of some, or is it too big a word, HINT, look in the dictionary. With classical training you can learn more tunes faster with a better trained ear, ornament in the right key and with speed and precision, and you save a lot of time pedaling in circles around a fingerboard, which you obviously advocate and support, regardless of the sound. And, whats up with the article, sure they burnt out, but it said nothing about leaving the classical tradition for a genre, AGAIN if thats too big a word look it up, to play traditional music, or to play with less class. Get it CLASS, CLASSICAL, why not traditional music with CLASS. It only desires the dignity, so again with the article and this either OR thing I ask WHAT IS YOUR POINT.
With all this talk about dictionaries, I have a sudden urge to point out spelling mistakes, but I'm managing to stop myself. See, I'm not even going to point out a single one. Aren't I a good boy today.
I too often wonder at the precise nature of the bad influence that is supposed to be imparted by a classical training? I ask why? I ask why it is that so often (not always) classically trained people make such a hash of diddley music? By rights, they should have the techniques to easilly deal with it, but maybe that's the thing. It's not about technique.
I know a good few people that came from a classical music background, including myself, but the advantages are most notable on the fiddle. People that played classical violin have to learn the style of ITM just as they would any other form or style of music, but they already have control over their instrument and at least rudimentary theoretical knowledge. The fiddlers I know who come from a classically trained background have become excellent fiddlers with the added benefit if very clear tone and intonation.
Case in point; we have a lovely gal who has recently shown up at our sessions who could only play The Kid on the Mountain when she first appeared. She would come in, sit down, take out her fiddle, place it on her lap and record the tunes. At first she would only play when I started that tune, (intentionally to include her,) but for months she would do nothing more. We were very happy to have her there, even though she only played the one tune, because if she weren’t there it would appear that it was a session for ugly guys, but I digress. Anyway, she now knows about 30 tunes but adds more every week, and here's the part I wanted to get to... she plays them all beautifully and up to tempo. She never went to a "slow session" and I have yet to hear a sour note, squeak or scrape out of her. Every week she has a bit more of the style under control, and besides adding a bit of beauty to our session -- she's adding musically as well.
But this is the case with most classically trained violinists I know who crossed over. In my case the classical training on piano didn’t facilitate such instant results on concertina since it's a totally foreign keyboard layout, and the flute was a whole new instrument. But as I said, the advantage is clear with the fiddle. A classically trained flute player might enjoy a similar advantage, but there would still be more adjustment than a violinist would have to deal with.
p.s. I'll sort out your garden, David, but you'll have to provide the drink.
I’ve seen several violinists go from a classical orientation to Irish or Scottish fiddling and, in every case I can think of, they made pretty darn good fiddlers. I can see how classical training might present some minor challenges in making the transition, but if the interest and determination are there, I don’t see why the training shouldn’t be a very positive force in the long run.
The danger, of course, is that a classical player will jump headlong into ITM, not realizing that they need to master the dialect.
Thinking about the original topic reminds me of the sad experience of my son. He showed considerable talent for the piano and was a precocious composer by the age of eleven. The head of the music department at a nearby college took notice and soon he was taking piano lessons at the college. The teacher was very rigorous and ignored my son’s creative and adventurous tendencies. Practice went from delight to drudgery and, after a couple of years, the boy had lost interest in playing and composing, quit the lessons and didn’t touch the piano for four years. I wish we had realized sooner that classical rigor was not his path.
He got over it, eventually. In his twenties, he took up the guitar and the last time I heard him, he was making fingerstyle arrangements of Carolan’s Draught and The Butterfly.
Classical or Traditional? - that old chestnut
Classical or Traditional? - that old chestnut
I thought yous might be interested to read the article from yesterday's Grauniad to compare your own musical experience with that of others:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/features/story/0,,1700213,00.html
It reminded me of how I never cycled to school. Although I was extremely fit and very fast, and the 7 miles each way on a daily basis would have been ideal in some ways, I never allowed my cycling for pleasure to become mired in either the chore of workaday transportation, nor in the unseemly business of competition. I kept it for pleasure.
I do the same now with music, and this article made me glad to have chosen the path that chosen I have.
Dave
# Posted on February 3rd 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: Classical or Traditional? - that old chestnut
I was surprised at how much they claimed orchestra players made in the US, nobody I know is at that pay level. They must be talking big orchestras in big cities, I live in a small town.
Fortunately nobody is trying to corrupt my pleasure with large sums.
Dave's post does make me think of my friend who started playing as a kid and has always been glad his parents didn't jump in with lessons and pressure, or even much praise; it made the music his own, something he could pursue at his own direction. I guess I'm doing the same, I just started at a much later stage in life. I'll stick to my living room and the local coffeehouse/pub place. It gives me great joy, though it doesn't do a lot for my sex life, see previous thread...
# Posted on February 3rd 2006 by full measure
Re: Classical or Traditional? - that old chestnut
Reading the Guardian article reminds me of an interview with Paddy Glackin where he described how despite being in at the start of the Bothy Band he made a conscious decision not to be a full time professional musician, (but work for RTE etc instead.) He said he'd not regretted it, and reckoned his enjoyment of the music was greater for that choice.
# Posted on February 3rd 2006 by TomB-R
Re: Classical or Traditional? - that old chestnut
Hmm. I like the way I only ever cycle as trasportation, to comute or go out to a session or go shopping or anything so long as it's not just for pleasure. Why cycle for pleasure when there are places to go?
# Posted on February 3rd 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Classical or Traditional? - that old chestnut
Question: "Why cycle for pleasure . . . ."
Answer: For pleasure.
Come on Michael, you can do better than that!
Perhaps you need something to stimulate you.
Imagine me cycling and playing the bodhran!
Or cycling for pleasure after going to buy a custom built bodhran with a picture of a little man all in green on the skin and my name burned in runes round the rim!
Come on - work that spleen! Don't let me down!
# Posted on February 3rd 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: Classical or Traditional? - that old chestnut
I used to really enjoy playing in my classical orchestra until I was introduced to traditional music. When I play Irish stuff, I play because I love it, because it's fun. But now, when I go back to classical, it seems so pointless. This may not be true in all orchestras, but atleast in mine, it seems like the only reason people play at all is to get higher chairs. There is no love in what they play, no emotion. And, like it said in the article, no room for individuality. My orchestra director goes ballistic if I play any ITM in his presence or add any ornamentation at all (I think he's appalled that his assistant concert mistress would dare play anything other than classical), and now he has adopted the slogan of "NO DEVIATION!" and he glares at me every time he says it. Thanks for the link, Dave, I really identify with that article.
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by Fiddlekit
Re: Classical or Traditional? - that old chestnut
Hmm, cycling and playing the bodhran? I certainly would get a great deal of pleasure when, having no hands on the handlebars, you hit a bump, and the front wheel judders out of control, and over the top you career, bodhran and all, straight into a a very prickly blackberry bush.
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Classical or Traditional? - that old chestnut
What a bait, showaddydadito!
Those two articles go a long way toward explaining the possible lure of a swap to traditional music by 'some', and I qualify only 'some' classically trained musicians. Its not the tunes or tradition, per se, that lures these poor unfortunates, its just an opportunity to express hard earned talents not available to them in classical music. An ego thingy. The chance to be top dog, rather than well oiled cog. Haven't they been through years of intense and dedicated classical study and are deserving of hitherto unrecognised status for this!! After all, isn't there a classical technique to cover anything that might possibly come up in trad music !?!, and they have a veritable storehouse full of such honed and crafted tricks to draw on!!
But, why not settle with their baggage somewhere else?
I am glad I am driven to play the beautiful tunes because they are there begging to be played, definitely cycling for pleasure, not transportation or for pain. And I freely admit that I'm not even an average, let alone a good cyclist, but that doesn't mean I can't and am not enjoying the ride.
It would be really interesting to find out how many others on this site feel the same.
Thanks to you Dave
Old chestnut - can of worms - fell for it hook, line and sinker!
Cheers
Jan
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Classical or Traditional? - that old chestnut
And I am sure this is not the case, in your case Fiddlekit! The articles were about unfortunate adults, and it is possible to have room for and to love both, especially at your age. We cross posted. Your insight is fresh and terrific.
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Classical or Traditional? - that old chestnut
Fiddlekit, does your orchestra director rotate players in the string sections? It's not a bad idea and gives the first desk a chance to see the problems from the viewpoint of the back of the section, and vice versa. It doesn't matter so much when everyone is of a similar standard (as they are in one of my orchestras) and most players enjoy a stint in the first desk for a few rehearsals, but in other orchestras (with a somewhat broader spectrum of abilities shall we say) I've seen players from the remote fastnesses of the section suddenly elevated to the first desk, and they couldn't wait to get back to the safety and anonimity of the back desks soon enough
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: Classical or Traditional? - that old chestnut
Fiddlekit, I'll add that basically, it seems the only way to get personal individuality in classical music nowadays is to quit the orchestra and become a soloist, not necessarily doing the big stuff like concertos, but playing music you really like with an accompanist in small venues or just for friends.
Or become the conductor of an orchestra
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: chestnuts roasting on spitting conductors
well,in no way rising to yr funny old bait,it was the tunes/company/drink that atrracted me to the world of sessions.plus,you meet a better class of person,usually.
if i had the talent my job of choice would be playing viola in a quartet as that offers ensemble playing with a bit of yr own stamp thrown in,more importantly: no conductors.
that's also a big attraction of sessions-there's hopefully no prat waving his/her arms at you all the while displaying a range of silly expressions.
in any walk of life the grass seems to be greener elsewhere but playing for a living is n't the worst thing you can do.
Trevor-re the pro/cons of back/front desk string playing -all i can say is that it's much easier if you're at the front.the only drawback is that you're that much closer to the conductor.playing at the back is n't easy.
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by biggus dave
Re: Classical or Traditional? - that old chestnut
I used to have a house in the country where I had a lush overflowing garden and loads of flowers and trellises covered in ivy and roses etc. My lawn was gorgeous and when I went to the mailbox at the end of the driveway people driving by who lived nearby would stop and chat to me about it. My friends wondered where I was hiding the little old lady that took care of it all. Even the birds would flock around the house livening things up with their singing and chirping. The thing was -- I loved gardening.
My reputation as a gardener reached legendary status among friends and family until word of my skills reached the man who had taken care of my parent’s garden for many years. He had decided to retire and offered me his business. I gladly took him up on it and began life as a professional gardener. The problem was that when I got back home, the last thing I wanted to do was garden. Needless to say, my own garden went south at an alarming rate. No longer was I stopped at the mailbox, no one was even curious about the little old lady, the birds got bored.
Later, I changed careers and became a graphic designer at an ad agency. One day someone who was supposed to produce a radio spot presented his idea – and it was woeful. The agency was in a pinch with no one else to take the guy’s place. I had just finished recording something at a local recording studio and told them I might be able to help. They gave me a budget, I grabbed the girl who worked next to me, (I knew she could sing,) and off we went. The ad we made ended up winning an award at the end of the year and put a big feather in the cap of the ad agency I worked for. (It was interesting for them since they had no capacity for radio ad production.) After the celebration, I was asked into a big meeting with the head honchos. They pitched the idea of creating a new department that I would be in charge of that would include my own state-of-the-art recording equipment. I would also receive a substantial salary increase. I told them I would think it over.
After the excitement of the idea wore off, I remembered my experience with the gardening. Was I willing to risk my love and enjoyment of music for this? I would be producing ads for banks and drinking fountain companies etc. all day and returning home with music being something I need a rest from… just like the gardening.
Well… I decided not to do it. Within a year I had moved to SF anyway so it didn’t matter. I moved there in hopes to be in the proximity of other people that play ITM and where musicians on tour from Ireland would be passing through. This turned out to be a good idea… for my music anyway. Later, I formed a group with some friends and we started doing gigs. The difference with ITM (as something I could do to make money) is that being so obscure in the US – no one could tell me what to play or how to play it. When I was doing a gig I got to just play Irish music the way I wanted to. If I came home tired and wanting to rest -- it was ok because I had spent my time on the very music I love… playing it the way I want. Doing gigs has only added to my enjoyment of the music. No one wants an ad for a bank with reels and jigs – thank God.
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Classical or Traditional? - that old chestnut
That's a good point, Jan. I have seen people like that, it's very sad... But I'm definitely not one of them!
Trevor, we have chair tests every week, but my stand partner and I are constantly first desk. It would be kind of interesting to see things switched around, though!
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by Fiddlekit
Re: Classical or Traditional? - that old chestnut
I like to play some ITM in my middle-school orchestra; we did Road To Lisdoonvarna in our December concert and I taught the kids the ornamentations. (RTL lies very well on the cello; not all ITM does.)
We even used an old bodhran I found in the closet. It was paired with some Vivaldi; now, we're working on a klezmer tune.
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Classical or Traditional? - that old chestnut
I had classical training until I was about 15, but I had already harboured an interest in trad music of all sorts (kelzmer, ITM, scottish, cape breton, etc). I went through a phase of dismissing classical music as unfeeling and claimed it didn't give enough freedom to express oneself, but now I realise that I was wrong. Since I realised that I was wrong, I have begun to actually enjoy classical music once again, so I'm glad.
# Posted on February 5th 2006 by MaccyD
Re: Classical or Traditional? - that old OR thing
Excuse me, but I must ask again, and again until I get something more than a smart alect answer. But, since when is classical music not traditional. WHAT IS YOUR POINT. I happen to play both. Honestly, I love traditional music more thats granted. But, and this is what is not being addressed. Lets use you mode of transportation as an example. Once you learn how to keep the thing under you, and upright, does it make sense to ride seven miles, pedaling away, fiquring out easier ways to pedal, or coast going down hill, as you route your trip that is actually 3 miles away. Maybe some people like to go around in circles rather that the easiest and fastest way from point A to point B, or they just don't want to follow a well constructed road map and are trying to make excuses for it. Regardless, doggin classical music is a flat cop out, and what does the amount of money an orchestra player makes under certain working conditions have to do with the price of eggs in China. Classical is another form of traditional music that requires discipline, OH maybe thats it, any thing not requiring discipline may be a good excuse, got me there. Classical training should be the focus. Is it approximations, sloppy slides, and awkward string traditions that may entertain but fail to provide the dignity traditional music deserves that you are satisfied with. Classical training requires discipline, ear training, automaticity, O.K. so theres a word for the drunks to make fun of, and it has nothing to do with the song, type of songs, or origen of songs you enjoy playing and hearing. Bottom line is mediocracy is all the tradition means to some, keep bad mouthing classical training. But if you want to give it the dignity it deserves, learn to play it tonic, harmonic and with precision, now theres another one, maybe precision is just too much to ask of some, or is it too big a word, HINT, look in the dictionary. With classical training you can learn more tunes faster with a better trained ear, ornament in the right key and with speed and precision, and you save a lot of time pedaling in circles around a fingerboard, which you obviously advocate and support, regardless of the sound. And, whats up with the article, sure they burnt out, but it said nothing about leaving the classical tradition for a genre, AGAIN if thats too big a word look it up, to play traditional music, or to play with less class. Get it CLASS, CLASSICAL, why not traditional music with CLASS. It only desires the dignity, so again with the article and this either OR thing I ask WHAT IS YOUR POINT.
# Posted on February 7th 2006 by texross
Re: Classical or Traditional? - that old chestnut
Wow, and I thought my contribution to this thread went off on a tangent.
# Posted on February 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Classical or Traditional? - that old chestnut
With all this talk about dictionaries, I have a sudden urge to point out spelling mistakes, but I'm managing to stop myself. See, I'm not even going to point out a single one. Aren't I a good boy today.
# Posted on February 7th 2006 by Dow
Re: Classical or Traditional? - that old chestnut
I too often wonder at the precise nature of the bad influence that is supposed to be imparted by a classical training? I ask why? I ask why it is that so often (not always) classically trained people make such a hash of diddley music? By rights, they should have the techniques to easilly deal with it, but maybe that's the thing. It's not about technique.
# Posted on February 7th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Classical or Traditional? - that old chestnut
I know a good few people that came from a classical music background, including myself, but the advantages are most notable on the fiddle. People that played classical violin have to learn the style of ITM just as they would any other form or style of music, but they already have control over their instrument and at least rudimentary theoretical knowledge. The fiddlers I know who come from a classically trained background have become excellent fiddlers with the added benefit if very clear tone and intonation.
Case in point; we have a lovely gal who has recently shown up at our sessions who could only play The Kid on the Mountain when she first appeared. She would come in, sit down, take out her fiddle, place it on her lap and record the tunes. At first she would only play when I started that tune, (intentionally to include her,) but for months she would do nothing more. We were very happy to have her there, even though she only played the one tune, because if she weren’t there it would appear that it was a session for ugly guys, but I digress. Anyway, she now knows about 30 tunes but adds more every week, and here's the part I wanted to get to... she plays them all beautifully and up to tempo. She never went to a "slow session" and I have yet to hear a sour note, squeak or scrape out of her. Every week she has a bit more of the style under control, and besides adding a bit of beauty to our session -- she's adding musically as well.
But this is the case with most classically trained violinists I know who crossed over. In my case the classical training on piano didn’t facilitate such instant results on concertina since it's a totally foreign keyboard layout, and the flute was a whole new instrument. But as I said, the advantage is clear with the fiddle. A classically trained flute player might enjoy a similar advantage, but there would still be more adjustment than a violinist would have to deal with.
p.s. I'll sort out your garden, David, but you'll have to provide the drink.
# Posted on February 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Classical or Traditional? - that old chestnut
I’ve seen several violinists go from a classical orientation to Irish or Scottish fiddling and, in every case I can think of, they made pretty darn good fiddlers. I can see how classical training might present some minor challenges in making the transition, but if the interest and determination are there, I don’t see why the training shouldn’t be a very positive force in the long run.
The danger, of course, is that a classical player will jump headlong into ITM, not realizing that they need to master the dialect.
Thinking about the original topic reminds me of the sad experience of my son. He showed considerable talent for the piano and was a precocious composer by the age of eleven. The head of the music department at a nearby college took notice and soon he was taking piano lessons at the college. The teacher was very rigorous and ignored my son’s creative and adventurous tendencies. Practice went from delight to drudgery and, after a couple of years, the boy had lost interest in playing and composing, quit the lessons and didn’t touch the piano for four years. I wish we had realized sooner that classical rigor was not his path.
He got over it, eventually. In his twenties, he took up the guitar and the last time I heard him, he was making fingerstyle arrangements of Carolan’s Draught and The Butterfly.
# Posted on February 8th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Classical or Traditional? - that old chestnut
oh yeah don't you just LOVE being railroaded by some violinist site-reading out of a book w/ piano intonation.
Shheeesh.
# Posted on February 12th 2006 by Owell Mabee