Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
I thought the same thing about myself forever. To get a good D cran requires an efficient embouchure first, and then tight fingering. Until you can get a solid and loud D the fingering will be a moot point. Once you do get a solid D your muscle memory has to be very clear. You fingers have to lift and resettle before the next finger lifts. Very small finger movements also are necessary. With all fingers down I start with my ring finger on my left hand and follow through with my index and middle fingers on my right hand. If it’s a long cran I’ll return to my ring finger on my left hand. The New Mown Meadow is a good example of where I would use this.
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
I do mine pretty much the same way Jack does his:
XXXXXX
XXOXXX
XXXXXX
XXXXOX
XXXXXX
XXXOXX
XXXXXX
The finger order isn't identical but the key thing is that you use three different fingers to make the cuts. Many players use only two, but I find that to be more difficult (for a 3-cut crann that is)
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
nope. that makes two of us, gian. frankly, i try to phrase crans right out of tunes for the most part. my low d is still not stable enough or consistent enough to be messing with crans.
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
gian, don't sweat it man you don't need crans to play the flute. I like most people went through my cranning but after listening to the older flute players from the preMatt Molloy era I noticed that the cran is not used by these players and their playing is all the more pleasant because of it. Before Molloy the cran really wasn't used in irish flute playing and many of the other bubbly ornamentations like the BCnatd triplet weren't either. Then players like Seamus Egan and Kevin Crawford came along and really began to feature these ornaments and its getting to the point where almost every note has a snap or a pop in it. After talking with and listening to clips and opinions of the older players I think a less is more approach is better where the tune is the most important thing, not how much you can put into it. But because of the popularity and exposure of these three players and the lack of exposure to the older stuff has resulted in the standardization of crans and other bubbly ornaments when in really they are unnecesary (and grating to my ear).
There's plenty of ways around crans for instance in toss the feathers in D you could play
Cran version: D2DDADDDABCnatAGE~3DDD...
flute version D2F#DADF#DABCnatAGE~3D(fed)......
There's a million ways to get around crans so don't sweat it because they aren't even all that. A friend recently told me what Oscar Wilde, the famous Irish wit and playwright, said when asked to define a gentleman:
"A gentleman is a man who knows how to play the bagpipes, and doesn't."
Perhaps in this case a gentleman is a man who knows how to play crans on the flute and doesn't.
Not playing crans isn't a cop-out and it doesn't make you any less of a flute player. I don't play crans, the BCnatd triplet or other bubbly ornaments even though I can because I prefer the music to be less cluttered and I don't feel the need to fit in every possible ornamentation imaginable when I play the flute.
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Jack, you are right there is not a lot of exposure to the older players, now try going to a CD store and finding a Paddy Carty recording, that is why. I feel also that the tune is more important, but I like the ornaments so I do use them but in context with the tune. Some players will replace entire phrases with a fancy ornament, I hate that. For example, listen to "Gregg's Pipe's" on Lunasa's Redwood and notice that when Kevin gets to the end of the A part he just does some fancy ornament then goes into the B part, then listen to how Sean does it and notice how the Fiddle does not do that. Personally I like the pop, which probably comes from my old Piping days (apparently Wormdiet and I are Gentleman) hence my heavy use of the C# and A grace notes (G and E on Pipes).
Crans are by no means neccassary, and it is up to the player to use them. Gian, if you feel your cran stinks, don't worry about it, but if you want to use them like I said before, keep working on it.
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
K, so I'm no flute player, but tell me, you lot, aren't the crans something that came in when the flute players started emulating pipers? Inquiring minds...
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Once in a while, a musician comes along and takes the music and or their instrument to a different level. As always, there are those who prefer the simpler days of old, and that's fine. But give me Matt Molloy any day.
I was listening to Heathery Breeze today and and one track really stood out to me as terrific old style playing. Three slow jigs on the Bb flute. One of the most important qualities of the very best of the ground breaking musicians is that they not just pick and choose what they take from the past, but they take it all into their new music. Matt is the man. He is that extreemly rare and beautiful thing which is both the consumate traditional musician and the bold inovator.
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Interesting stuff (well, most of it) guys. Paddy Carty of course played a type of Boehm system (like me, but there the similarity ends), so ornamentation would be by definition sparser. Michael, if Matt is the man, McEvoy is the woman. And Tansey and Mulvey are the men also. And so on and on.
My input here? Middle of the road, I'm afraid. I like to hear examples of all of it, except the stripped to the bare bones style of eg Russell and Coen. That, I'm afraid, bores me.
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Zina, yes I was refering to when Molloy began to barrow ornaments on the pipes and put them into flute playing.
Who is Nick? I'm racking my very small brain at the moment trying to think of a Nick that I know.
Phantom, I he may like them or maybe he's just trying to fit in with today's players. I don't know so I offered my opinions.
Michael there are quite a few implied statements in your post that I disagree with. First you imply that the older players were somehow simplier but I stongly disagree. Listen to the playing of Kevin Henry and tell me his playing is simple. Or John Mckenna. Or Peadar O'Loughlin. Or Peter Horan. The playing of all these players are filled with so many naunces that I can't even begin to describe and if anything I find the playing of Matt Molloy to be very simple rhythmically speaking. I really enjoy listening to Molloy and admire his musicianship but I find I enjoy the "simpler" music rather than flute gymnastics. I bet even Matt Molloy would prefer if you listened and learned from the people that inspired him.
2nd you imply as people always do when I open my mouth that I want to bottle the tradition and that I'm an anti-progressionist. Not true... I'm trying to advocate the variations of playing styles (especially the olders ones) while combatting the musical homogenization and hegemony of the current fads, popular recording artists and groups.
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Jack - Woah! Steady on, mate. I suspect Michael was just being positive wrt Molloy... I doubt if he was knocking Molloys predecessors... but I'm sure Michael will enlighten us...?
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
This should be interesting. I know both Jack and Michael have very strong opinions. I wouldn't say that he was the first player to borrow Pipe ornaments but dfinantly did take it to a new level. Danny, when I mentioned Carty that was just the first older player that came to mind, I was not talking about his style just that recordings are hard to find.
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Hehe, don't worry man... not upset. Stupid internet doesn't exactly read as intended... imagine a smirking long haired 22 year old who isn't upset in slightest when reading my post.
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
"you imply as people always do when I open my mouth that I want to bottle the tradition and that I'm an anti-progressionist. Not true"
Murphy, you created that impression yourself when you came onto this discussion board and claimed that the "band generation", (that you further defined as anyone between the ages of 30 and 60,) are "ruining the music." That was the first impression you gave us here at the session.org. What do you expect us to think?
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Unseen, there are only 2 recordings that I'm aware of, of Paddy Carty. The first is the one with a very young Mick O'Connor plinking along on the banjo. Mick told me all he got in payment was a pile of the vinyl albums to sell off...probably worth a mint now! If you have the gear to play 33.3 vinyl, then email Mick to purchase...possibly through Mick Bailey's Raggle Taggle website - it's linked to here.
The other is a very obscure cassette (which *should* 've been released as a CD and if not why not?) and is much more listenable to. It has Connor Tully on fiddle, and some other class guys, on banjo and Bouzouki?? it's called, predictably, "Traditional Music of Ireland"...which I recall is the same name as the one with Mick. If you require further details on the 2nd one let me know.
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
I'm not sure I understand your disagreement, Jack. I think I did more than merely imply that the older music is simpler, and you are welcome to disagree. But then you say "I enjoy the "simpler" music rather than flute gymnastics". And I said that I really enjoy Molloy when he plays simple and slow.
However, we both know that making it more complicated never means better by default. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. But what Molloy did was to increase the armory of variation and decoration and he does play rhythmically (I agree with you here) in an exceedingly steady way. This accentuates the subtle differences between the fast roll, the double fast roll, the cran etc.
Is his music less simple than the older style? Probably, but only marginally so. His real leap however was in the precision of it. And that's what I love about it. Every nuance is done with such deliberacy. And it set the bar for all the modern players. (you're still welcome not to like it though)
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Molloy is king...well one of them.
But I just luuerrrve the "floridness" (is that a word?) of Tansey's playing. So much music squashed into each 2-minute recording of 2-3 reels/jigs. And pure feeling for the music. Ho-hum, here we go again...
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Danny, you prove my point in your post above about Carty's and older recordings. Seems like everything has worked itself out here, for the most part. There are two Jacks and there are also two foolish young individuals on this thread.
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
There exists an inherent problem with the method/fingering wormdiet details…and that is doing two crans in a row at speed. What it implies is a double tap with the left hand ring finger (if you’re a righty). It is a bad habit and should be avoided. At speed, it becomes difficult to accomplish and starts to sound sloppy. This fingering is a bad habit (I’m presently trying to overcome). Rather (although more difficult at first) try:
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
I have to say to Gian Marco though (if he's still here)... You're welcom to take the advice that you can get along fine without crans. But I'd suggest you keep trying. Crans on the flute are great. Once you nail it, you may well over do them for a while, new toys and that. But no one will blame you for it.
Someone mentioned earlier that it's all about the hard D, another of Molloy's inovations. If you play the soft D, any interuptiuon of the column of air by openeing a hole for a fraction of a second tends to let the not die. Nail the hard D first. It's all in the lips.
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
If yer talking two cranns with three cuts apiece then I don;t see the issue. . .I just did about six ina row with no problems fairly quickly.
If yer talking four-cut cranns then umm. . . I;ve never attempted to play one, but I'd be interested in hearing about them. . . in fact an example would be great!
My style is the same as Jack G's but the only difference is the bottom fingers cut in a different order.
If you want to talk "difficult ornaments up to speed" I am gonna break out my Crunluath A Mach variations and boy will you be sorry! ;P (j/k)
I was listening to Paddy Carty yesterday and the man is anything but simple - his playing has plenty of ornaments, but they are fairly subtle. His flute was cylindrical like a Boehm but the fingering is apparently closer to a simple-system. Btw I found that CD (The Banjo one) brand new in a record store in Maine over Christmas. I was completey shocked in a good way.
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
marco? are you still there? i can't cran for sh*te but i keep working on it because i might some day really want to. in the mean time i huff along without and have a great time anyway. you can take that from another geezer. don
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Gian,
don't get too hung up on cranning. I've read/heard SO many different methods of cranning on flute. Some are clear, some are blurry. Some sound like a machine gun, some sound like farting in the bath.
Eamonn Cotter, who is a top flute player, says:
"With ornamentation, practice that on its own. Make sure you have the right fingering and the right technique first, and practice slowly and build your speed up. Put very few rolls in jigs, because when you put a roll in a jig it takes up half a bar -- and you're losing a lot of the basic tune. In a lot of ways it's a question of taste. Cranning, well, it's advisable to stay away from it in a lot of ways: it's very hit and miss, it's a piping ornament really and it's very hard. It can work out fine at the back of the stage, but when you go out to perform it -- you know... And that's a common feature with that ornamentation. I think in recordings... I'm sure there's some editing done to get in the cranning -- it just doesn't work out when you want it to work."
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Oh, OK, so that's the advice now is it ... stay away from it because it's very hard. I'm sure glad Molloy never took that one on board.
"Ooh, I have trouble getting by top B in tune ... moan moan" Well just avoid that note then, it's quite hard.
The whole bloody point of it is to get these things nailed so you don't fluff them. And fluffing them is part of the process. So away and get fluffing.
And yes, a slow roll takes half a bar in a jig. But a snappy fast roll only takes up a third. But the rolls ARE part on the tune, so how are you missing the tune when you play one. duh.
And why not stop breathing while your at it, you loose at least a third of a bar there.
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Keep your hair on, Michael.
It's not a question of staying away from it because it's hard, just not to get hung up on it, because it's a bit of a moveable target, since no two people can agree on what a cran on a flute should sound like, or be played.
Agreed, rolls are part of the tune, Eamonn isn't advocating missing out essential ornaments which are part of the tune, just not cramming a tune with excessive unneccessary ornaments (I'm reminded of the comments in Ciaran Carson's book where he describes some flute players as sort of descendants of the over-zealous illustrators of ancient Celtic manuscripts, forever adding one more scroll or curlicue, until the script is unreadable).
And it's all very well saying " stay away from it because it's very hard. I'm sure glad Molloy never took that one on board.", but possibly more than a few of us will never QUITE reach Matt's level of technical facility, and although we shouldn't stop trying for the best we can do, it is sometimes as well to be realistic....
Mark
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Ok then. Though we actually agree almost completely on what is good music, we have a fundamental disagreement on approach to playing ...
When you say "you shouldn't stop trying for the best you can do", you put a cap on your abilities. You have a mental level in your head that says, "There comes a point where it's the best I can do".
I think this is fundamentally the wrong approach. How do you know if it's the best you can do? How do you know you can't do better if you just raised your bar a little? How do you know you couldn't be great if you had no bar? Your reaction here is that I'm not being realistic, but - coupled with the fact that this is pretty simple music - the point is that you are setting a level of what you think is realistic based on your current inability to do something now. Not, on the possibility that, with practice, you will be able to do it in the future.
Much better just to hear stuff and say, "I could do that".
Unlike Eamonn Cotter (I don't know the man, so I don't know if this is advice to himself or others) who says, "Stay away from it, because it's hit and miss". It's so defeatist
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
I don't think it a matter of artificially capping what you can do, just not letting your own limitations stop you from enjoying playing. I interpreted Gian's initial query as suggesting a certain anxiety about not being able to do something that he thought he should be able to do. I introduced E.C. into the discussion because I thought that his doubts about cranning on the flute, given that he is a well-known flute player, might be reassuring. It's all very well talking about everyone being able to aspire perform a cran on a flute, but the best flute cran is a pale imitation of of a crisp machine-gun-type pipe cran. Even if you have a rock solid hard D, and can maintain it through the ornament, it won't have quite the percussive feel of the pipe ornament.
I'm not suggesting you shouldn't always strive to improve, or that you can't always improve, just that you shouldn't kill yourself over it ......
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Of course anxiety is the wrong feeling to have about anything, But saying, "don't bother, it's hard, plenty of other players get away without it" is defeatist, not reassuring. Much better a touch of anxiety to help spur you on rather than throwing in the towel.
Of course the best way is to be totally calm and collected and just get on with you practice and give yourself the skies limmit. But, and I am being realistic here, a touch of anxiety nothing to be ashamed off.
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Sorry, not a Flute player but I do love Paddy Carty's playing & just felt like chipping in.
I always thought Carty played a Boehm System Flute until Kenny recently put me right
Here's a site of interest to anyone curious about the Radcliffe System Flute that Carty played:
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Some level of ornamentation is essential to the sound of the music, but I would argue that some of the intricate ornaments, such as crans, are on the other side of the line--nice to be able to do, but you can still play quite well, and within the tradition, without them. I myself puttered around with crans, and decided they were nice to hear from other people--but for me, learning them was not worth the significant time investment involved. But then again, for me, the whistle is just a sideline--I might have chosen differently if it was my main instrument (although, with my meager talents, even if I chose to learn to do crans, I might still have yet to achieve that goal).
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
It's rather hilarious to listen to Eamonn Cotter's album after reading the interview referred to earlier on, given that he does quite a bit of cranning. It makes me think if what he said in the interview would have to do with his frustration in getting the crans to sound the way he wanted in the studio.
And here we are, taking those words as either gospel or misleading, dependind on where we stand as regards to cranning.
I find myself trying to cran as little as possible but end up doing it from time to time, mostly on the high (middle) D. I find that when I properly toot away with a hard D on my Hamilton flute, the cuts don't get properly articulated. And it feels more consistent with the rest of my style to use other forms of ornamentation than the cran.
BTW&OT I feel that the necessity of even rolls as we understand them is arguable. It's nice from time to time to try to play tunes without rolls/any other form of ornamentation. Makes you concentrate on rhythm and phrasing even more... ;)
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Michael,
Not afraid to step over the line, just made a decision that it is not worth the investment, on an instrument I do not play often. Would rather invest my practice time on strumming my guitar better, and learning new tunes on the accordion. Even though I love the music in all its aspects, there is only so much of me to go around!
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
That's fair enough Al. I think I'd like to play the flute, but don't because I don't have the time. I play my low whistle (with crans) to get an understanding of the flute and pipes so it helps my fiddle playing.
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
MG - No, ABSOLUTELY not what I meant to say!! I think we are in agreement on this issue.
What I *intended* to convey was this:
It seems that there are a lot of different styles in traditional music - all the way from Coleman to Lunasa. They are all, objectively speaking, equally valid. Some people like to impose their preferences on others by belittling other players and styles - THAT slagging is what I detest.
I don;t think cranns are stylistic arrogance at all. Heck, I play 'em all the time (see my fingering for them above) But nor is the lack of them. What bugs me is when people imply that that cranners are better then the cran-less, or the cranless are somehow "purer" or more legitimate than the cranners. the point is that there is room in this type of music for lots of styles without one group slagging another.
I can totally see why my original comment would be taken in the exact opposite manner it was intended. Apologies for the confusion.
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
You can encounter it on any music-related forum. On Harmony Central (a guitar board) this form of slagging has entered a baroque phase, in fact. There are incredibly long, elaborate, convoluted attacks by metal heads against new-wavers, vice-versa, and so on. Occasionally entertaining, but ultimately a waste of time.
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
twbam: Yes, I agree, - there's plenty of performers and bands that I don't care for particularly. Everybody has them. And if you would care to ask me why, I'd be happy to tell you.
It's that some people seem to go out of their way to knock down others that I find fairly obnoxious. It's one thing to state a preference, it's another to dismiss entire styles as "unworthy."
I try to always phrase my dislikes not in terms of "So and so sucks!" but rather, "so and so's playing doesn't appeal to me that much." See the difference? Objective vs. subjective.
Man, I should have taken my meds before posting the original comment.
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
So it's 5am and I got in from the pub and then had some quite tunes (and a few songs) at the house with a few guests and I sign on to this forum to see new developments and I can't help but notice that I'm now musically arrogant and belittling?
I can't have critical opinions? Must I now only post to blow smoke up someones arse?
Crans traditionally weren't played on the flute and to point this out while stating my own musical preferences is a display of arrogance? I just simply don't understand that. I never once belittled a playing style and if you read that in my words it wasn't my attention and that is a reflection upon you, not me. I never once in this thread said so and so sucks and I never once got personal so I really don't appreciate being called arrogant. Are you saying that I'm not allowed to express my opinions and contribute my thought to this group?
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Jack, give it a rest. If you choose to be offended, even though you weren't even mentioned, I won;t stop you, but there are better things to worry about.
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Actually - I reread the entire thread. . .and I probably come off sounding like a jerk to some here, especially Jack M. REacting to issues elsewhere, or something. PLease accept my apology.
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
No gian, it's a fine thread... or at least it started out fine. The problems commenced when the 'cran or not to cran' debate began. People started posturing and taking positions as if we were debating abortion rights or something. Amazing.
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Hehehe, sorry Wormdiet... I guess I shouldn't be checking thesession at 5am especially when I haven't even gone to bed yet. I just assumed because you were refering to me because you bought this issue up on this thread where as far as I can tell there wasn't much fighting and I was the one being mildy controversial.
Gian don't worry, this is a fine thread and I'm sure more than one or two benefitted.
Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
(sigh!)
# Posted on January 26th 2006 by gian marco
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
I thought the same thing about myself forever. To get a good D cran requires an efficient embouchure first, and then tight fingering. Until you can get a solid and loud D the fingering will be a moot point. Once you do get a solid D your muscle memory has to be very clear. You fingers have to lift and resettle before the next finger lifts. Very small finger movements also are necessary. With all fingers down I start with my ring finger on my left hand and follow through with my index and middle fingers on my right hand. If it’s a long cran I’ll return to my ring finger on my left hand. The New Mown Meadow is a good example of where I would use this.
# Posted on January 26th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
I do mine pretty much the same way Jack does his:
XXXXXX
XXOXXX
XXXXXX
XXXXOX
XXXXXX
XXXOXX
XXXXXX
The finger order isn't identical but the key thing is that you use three different fingers to make the cuts. Many players use only two, but I find that to be more difficult (for a 3-cut crann that is)
My crann workout tune is the Floating Crowbar.
# Posted on January 26th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
I use one similar to Wormdiets. I use the R1 finger before the R2 finger that is the only difference.
Keep working on it Gian,
# Posted on January 26th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
I actually use the same one as Jack. That should be a period up above.
# Posted on January 26th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
nope. that makes two of us, gian. frankly, i try to phrase crans right out of tunes for the most part. my low d is still not stable enough or consistent enough to be messing with crans.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Brendan
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
gian, don't sweat it man you don't need crans to play the flute. I like most people went through my cranning but after listening to the older flute players from the preMatt Molloy era I noticed that the cran is not used by these players and their playing is all the more pleasant because of it. Before Molloy the cran really wasn't used in irish flute playing and many of the other bubbly ornamentations like the BCnatd triplet weren't either. Then players like Seamus Egan and Kevin Crawford came along and really began to feature these ornaments and its getting to the point where almost every note has a snap or a pop in it. After talking with and listening to clips and opinions of the older players I think a less is more approach is better where the tune is the most important thing, not how much you can put into it. But because of the popularity and exposure of these three players and the lack of exposure to the older stuff has resulted in the standardization of crans and other bubbly ornaments when in really they are unnecesary (and grating to my ear).
There's plenty of ways around crans for instance in toss the feathers in D you could play
Cran version: D2DDADDDABCnatAGE~3DDD...
flute version D2F#DADF#DABCnatAGE~3D(fed)......
There's a million ways to get around crans so don't sweat it because they aren't even all that. A friend recently told me what Oscar Wilde, the famous Irish wit and playwright, said when asked to define a gentleman:
"A gentleman is a man who knows how to play the bagpipes, and doesn't."
Perhaps in this case a gentleman is a man who knows how to play crans on the flute and doesn't.
Not playing crans isn't a cop-out and it doesn't make you any less of a flute player. I don't play crans, the BCnatd triplet or other bubbly ornaments even though I can because I prefer the music to be less cluttered and I don't feel the need to fit in every possible ornamentation imaginable when I play the flute.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by JackMurphy
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
last line in the first paragraph should read aren't necesary... sorry
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by JackMurphy
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Jack, you are right there is not a lot of exposure to the older players, now try going to a CD store and finding a Paddy Carty recording, that is why. I feel also that the tune is more important, but I like the ornaments so I do use them but in context with the tune. Some players will replace entire phrases with a fancy ornament, I hate that. For example, listen to "Gregg's Pipe's" on Lunasa's Redwood and notice that when Kevin gets to the end of the A part he just does some fancy ornament then goes into the B part, then listen to how Sean does it and notice how the Fiddle does not do that. Personally I like the pop, which probably comes from my old Piping days (apparently Wormdiet and I are Gentleman) hence my heavy use of the C# and A grace notes (G and E on Pipes).
Crans are by no means neccassary, and it is up to the player to use them. Gian, if you feel your cran stinks, don't worry about it, but if you want to use them like I said before, keep working on it.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
K, so I'm no flute player, but tell me, you lot, aren't the crans something that came in when the flute players started emulating pipers? Inquiring minds...
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Zina Lee
P.S.
Jack Murphy, please say hi to Nick for me.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Of course crans aren't absolutely necessary -- unless you like them. I think Gian must like them or else he wouldn't have started this thread.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Zina, that is what I am told. Of course a lot of ornaments between the tow instruments are shared.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Once in a while, a musician comes along and takes the music and or their instrument to a different level. As always, there are those who prefer the simpler days of old, and that's fine. But give me Matt Molloy any day.
I was listening to Heathery Breeze today and and one track really stood out to me as terrific old style playing. Three slow jigs on the Bb flute. One of the most important qualities of the very best of the ground breaking musicians is that they not just pick and choose what they take from the past, but they take it all into their new music. Matt is the man. He is that extreemly rare and beautiful thing which is both the consumate traditional musician and the bold inovator.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Interesting stuff (well, most of it) guys. Paddy Carty of course played a type of Boehm system (like me, but there the similarity ends), so ornamentation would be by definition sparser. Michael, if Matt is the man, McEvoy is the woman. And Tansey and Mulvey are the men also. And so on and on.
My input here? Middle of the road, I'm afraid. I like to hear examples of all of it, except the stripped to the bare bones style of eg Russell and Coen. That, I'm afraid, bores me.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Zina, yes I was refering to when Molloy began to barrow ornaments on the pipes and put them into flute playing.
Who is Nick? I'm racking my very small brain at the moment trying to think of a Nick that I know.
Phantom, I he may like them or maybe he's just trying to fit in with today's players. I don't know so I offered my opinions.
Michael there are quite a few implied statements in your post that I disagree with. First you imply that the older players were somehow simplier but I stongly disagree. Listen to the playing of Kevin Henry and tell me his playing is simple. Or John Mckenna. Or Peadar O'Loughlin. Or Peter Horan. The playing of all these players are filled with so many naunces that I can't even begin to describe and if anything I find the playing of Matt Molloy to be very simple rhythmically speaking. I really enjoy listening to Molloy and admire his musicianship but I find I enjoy the "simpler" music rather than flute gymnastics. I bet even Matt Molloy would prefer if you listened and learned from the people that inspired him.
2nd you imply as people always do when I open my mouth that I want to bottle the tradition and that I'm an anti-progressionist. Not true... I'm trying to advocate the variations of playing styles (especially the olders ones) while combatting the musical homogenization and hegemony of the current fads, popular recording artists and groups.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by JackMurphy
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Jack - Woah! Steady on, mate. I suspect Michael was just being positive wrt Molloy... I doubt if he was knocking Molloys predecessors... but I'm sure Michael will enlighten us...?
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
This should be interesting. I know both Jack and Michael have very strong opinions. I wouldn't say that he was the first player to borrow Pipe ornaments but dfinantly did take it to a new level. Danny, when I mentioned Carty that was just the first older player that came to mind, I was not talking about his style just that recordings are hard to find.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Hehe, don't worry man... not upset. Stupid internet doesn't exactly read as intended... imagine a smirking long haired 22 year old who isn't upset in slightest when reading my post.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by JackMurphy
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
"you imply as people always do when I open my mouth that I want to bottle the tradition and that I'm an anti-progressionist. Not true"
Murphy, you created that impression yourself when you came onto this discussion board and claimed that the "band generation", (that you further defined as anyone between the ages of 30 and 60,) are "ruining the music." That was the first impression you gave us here at the session.org. What do you expect us to think?
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
You should think that I'm a young foolish individual with a heretic tendancy. What's your excuse? hehe
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by JackMurphy
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Unseen, there are only 2 recordings that I'm aware of, of Paddy Carty. The first is the one with a very young Mick O'Connor plinking along on the banjo. Mick told me all he got in payment was a pile of the vinyl albums to sell off...probably worth a mint now! If you have the gear to play 33.3 vinyl, then email Mick to purchase...possibly through Mick Bailey's Raggle Taggle website - it's linked to here.
The other is a very obscure cassette (which *should* 've been released as a CD and if not why not?) and is much more listenable to. It has Connor Tully on fiddle, and some other class guys, on banjo and Bouzouki?? it's called, predictably, "Traditional Music of Ireland"...which I recall is the same name as the one with Mick. If you require further details on the 2nd one let me know.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
In the blue corner, Jack from San Fran....in the red corner, ermm ...Jack from ermm...San Fran...
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
I'm not sure I understand your disagreement, Jack. I think I did more than merely imply that the older music is simpler, and you are welcome to disagree. But then you say "I enjoy the "simpler" music rather than flute gymnastics". And I said that I really enjoy Molloy when he plays simple and slow.
However, we both know that making it more complicated never means better by default. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. But what Molloy did was to increase the armory of variation and decoration and he does play rhythmically (I agree with you here) in an exceedingly steady way. This accentuates the subtle differences between the fast roll, the double fast roll, the cran etc.
Is his music less simple than the older style? Probably, but only marginally so. His real leap however was in the precision of it. And that's what I love about it. Every nuance is done with such deliberacy. And it set the bar for all the modern players. (you're still welcome not to like it though)
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Molloy is king...well one of them.
But I just luuerrrve the "floridness" (is that a word?) of Tansey's playing. So much music squashed into each 2-minute recording of 2-3 reels/jigs. And pure feeling for the music. Ho-hum, here we go again...
:-]
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Well Michael I agree.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by JackMurphy
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Don't waste you money on any tickets, Danny -- I'm not taking part in any main events.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Aye, but it would be great craic to get you over to SE London, sometime, Jack!
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Danny, you prove my point in your post above about Carty's and older recordings. Seems like everything has worked itself out here, for the most part. There are two Jacks and there are also two foolish young individuals on this thread.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
We can arrange that.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
"There are two Jacks and there are also two foolish young individuals on this thread."
Care to clarify what you mean?
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Two Jacks one being you the other Murphy. The two young fools myself and Murphy.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Ahhh... so an old geezer and two young fools... ok... hahaha
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
There exists an inherent problem with the method/fingering wormdiet details…and that is doing two crans in a row at speed. What it implies is a double tap with the left hand ring finger (if you’re a righty). It is a bad habit and should be avoided. At speed, it becomes difficult to accomplish and starts to sound sloppy. This fingering is a bad habit (I’m presently trying to overcome). Rather (although more difficult at first) try:
xxx xxx
xxx oxx
xxx xxx
xxx xox
xxx xxx
xxo xxx
xxx xxx
It doesn’t matter in what order you open. This method you avoid the double finger tap.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Pete D
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
"Ahhh... so an old geezer and two young fools... ok... hahaha"
Now lets get this right... if anybody is the old geezer it's me.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by JackMurphy
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
I have to say to Gian Marco though (if he's still here)... You're welcom to take the advice that you can get along fine without crans. But I'd suggest you keep trying. Crans on the flute are great. Once you nail it, you may well over do them for a while, new toys and that. But no one will blame you for it.
Someone mentioned earlier that it's all about the hard D, another of Molloy's inovations. If you play the soft D, any interuptiuon of the column of air by openeing a hole for a fraction of a second tends to let the not die. Nail the hard D first. It's all in the lips.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Pete D. The method I suggested has no "double finger tap" if I understand you correctly.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Using that method, try two crans in a row. You will double tap on the left hand ring finger. At speed this will become an issue.
In my experience, two crans in a row does come a fair amount of time in ITM.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Pete D
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
to clarify....I'm talking about 2 long crans in a row
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Pete D
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Can you point to an example?
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
If yer talking two cranns with three cuts apiece then I don;t see the issue. . .I just did about six ina row with no problems fairly quickly.
If yer talking four-cut cranns then umm. . . I;ve never attempted to play one, but I'd be interested in hearing about them. . . in fact an example would be great!
My style is the same as Jack G's but the only difference is the bottom fingers cut in a different order.
If you want to talk "difficult ornaments up to speed" I am gonna break out my Crunluath A Mach variations and boy will you be sorry! ;P (j/k)
I was listening to Paddy Carty yesterday and the man is anything but simple - his playing has plenty of ornaments, but they are fairly subtle. His flute was cylindrical like a Boehm but the fingering is apparently closer to a simple-system. Btw I found that CD (The Banjo one) brand new in a record store in Maine over Christmas. I was completey shocked in a good way.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
marco? are you still there? i can't cran for sh*te but i keep working on it because i might some day really want to. in the mean time i huff along without and have a great time anyway. you can take that from another geezer. don
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Dont
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
yes I'm still here. Thanks to all.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by gian marco
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Gian,
don't get too hung up on cranning. I've read/heard SO many different methods of cranning on flute. Some are clear, some are blurry. Some sound like a machine gun, some sound like farting in the bath.
Eamonn Cotter, who is a top flute player, says:
"With ornamentation, practice that on its own. Make sure you have the right fingering and the right technique first, and practice slowly and build your speed up. Put very few rolls in jigs, because when you put a roll in a jig it takes up half a bar -- and you're losing a lot of the basic tune. In a lot of ways it's a question of taste. Cranning, well, it's advisable to stay away from it in a lot of ways: it's very hit and miss, it's a piping ornament really and it's very hard. It can work out fine at the back of the stage, but when you go out to perform it -- you know... And that's a common feature with that ornamentation. I think in recordings... I'm sure there's some editing done to get in the cranning -- it just doesn't work out when you want it to work."
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Oh, OK, so that's the advice now is it ... stay away from it because it's very hard. I'm sure glad Molloy never took that one on board.
"Ooh, I have trouble getting by top B in tune ... moan moan" Well just avoid that note then, it's quite hard.
The whole bloody point of it is to get these things nailed so you don't fluff them. And fluffing them is part of the process. So away and get fluffing.
And yes, a slow roll takes half a bar in a jig. But a snappy fast roll only takes up a third. But the rolls ARE part on the tune, so how are you missing the tune when you play one. duh.
And why not stop breathing while your at it, you loose at least a third of a bar there.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Keep your hair on, Michael.
will never QUITE reach Matt's level of technical facility, and although we shouldn't stop trying for the best we can do, it is sometimes as well to be realistic....
It's not a question of staying away from it because it's hard, just not to get hung up on it, because it's a bit of a moveable target, since no two people can agree on what a cran on a flute should sound like, or be played.
Agreed, rolls are part of the tune, Eamonn isn't advocating missing out essential ornaments which are part of the tune, just not cramming a tune with excessive unneccessary ornaments (I'm reminded of the comments in Ciaran Carson's book where he describes some flute players as sort of descendants of the over-zealous illustrators of ancient Celtic manuscripts, forever adding one more scroll or curlicue, until the script is unreadable).
And it's all very well saying " stay away from it because it's very hard. I'm sure glad Molloy never took that one on board.", but possibly more than a few of us
Mark
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Ok then. Though we actually agree almost completely on what is good music, we have a fundamental disagreement on approach to playing ...
When you say "you shouldn't stop trying for the best you can do", you put a cap on your abilities. You have a mental level in your head that says, "There comes a point where it's the best I can do".
I think this is fundamentally the wrong approach. How do you know if it's the best you can do? How do you know you can't do better if you just raised your bar a little? How do you know you couldn't be great if you had no bar? Your reaction here is that I'm not being realistic, but - coupled with the fact that this is pretty simple music - the point is that you are setting a level of what you think is realistic based on your current inability to do something now. Not, on the possibility that, with practice, you will be able to do it in the future.
Much better just to hear stuff and say, "I could do that".
Unlike Eamonn Cotter (I don't know the man, so I don't know if this is advice to himself or others) who says, "Stay away from it, because it's hit and miss". It's so defeatist
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
I don't think it a matter of artificially capping what you can do, just not letting your own limitations stop you from enjoying playing. I interpreted Gian's initial query as suggesting a certain anxiety about not being able to do something that he thought he should be able to do. I introduced E.C. into the discussion because I thought that his doubts about cranning on the flute, given that he is a well-known flute player, might be reassuring. It's all very well talking about everyone being able to aspire perform a cran on a flute, but the best flute cran is a pale imitation of of a crisp machine-gun-type pipe cran. Even if you have a rock solid hard D, and can maintain it through the ornament, it won't have quite the percussive feel of the pipe ornament.
I'm not suggesting you shouldn't always strive to improve, or that you can't always improve, just that you shouldn't kill yourself over it ......
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Of course anxiety is the wrong feeling to have about anything, But saying, "don't bother, it's hard, plenty of other players get away without it" is defeatist, not reassuring. Much better a touch of anxiety to help spur you on rather than throwing in the towel.
Of course the best way is to be totally calm and collected and just get on with you practice and give yourself the skies limmit. But, and I am being realistic here, a touch of anxiety nothing to be ashamed off.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Sorry, not a Flute player but I do love Paddy Carty's playing & just felt like chipping in.
I always thought Carty played a Boehm System Flute until Kenny recently put me right
Here's a site of interest to anyone curious about the Radcliffe System Flute that Carty played:
http://www.oldflutes.com/articles/radcliff.htm
& another good one for newcomers to the Flute:
http://www.firescribble.net/flute/players.html
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Some level of ornamentation is essential to the sound of the music, but I would argue that some of the intricate ornaments, such as crans, are on the other side of the line--nice to be able to do, but you can still play quite well, and within the tradition, without them. I myself puttered around with crans, and decided they were nice to hear from other people--but for me, learning them was not worth the significant time investment involved. But then again, for me, the whistle is just a sideline--I might have chosen differently if it was my main instrument (although, with my meager talents, even if I chose to learn to do crans, I might still have yet to achieve that goal).
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
It's rather hilarious to listen to Eamonn Cotter's album after reading the interview referred to earlier on, given that he does quite a bit of cranning. It makes me think if what he said in the interview would have to do with his frustration in getting the crans to sound the way he wanted in the studio.
And here we are, taking those words as either gospel or misleading, dependind on where we stand as regards to cranning.
I find myself trying to cran as little as possible but end up doing it from time to time, mostly on the high (middle) D. I find that when I properly toot away with a hard D on my Hamilton flute, the cuts don't get properly articulated. And it feels more consistent with the rest of my style to use other forms of ornamentation than the cran.
BTW&OT I feel that the necessity of even rolls as we understand them is arguable. It's nice from time to time to try to play tunes without rolls/any other form of ornamentation. Makes you concentrate on rhythm and phrasing even more... ;)
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Markus
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
See that's what I'm getting at, "Other side of the line, but you can still play quite well without it"
Drwaing lines in the sand you are afraid to step over
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
A lot of [well deserved] praise for Molloy but Peter Horan once said of him - "Ach sure poor oul Matty - he could have been a flute player."
Point being that Peter felt that all the ornamentation was contrary to the Sligo/Roscommon tradition.
I would also recommend Cathal McConnell's style. He CAN do all that stuff but chooses not to and I LOVE the result.
And as for the insanity of Tansey's playing mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
nuff said
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by breandan
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Michael,
Not afraid to step over the line, just made a decision that it is not worth the investment, on an instrument I do not play often. Would rather invest my practice time on strumming my guitar better, and learning new tunes on the accordion. Even though I love the music in all its aspects, there is only so much of me to go around!
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
That's fair enough Al. I think I'd like to play the flute, but don't because I don't have the time. I play my low whistle (with crans) to get an understanding of the flute and pipes so it helps my fiddle playing.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
I absolutely detest stylistic arrogance.
There, I said it.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
So crans on a flute are "stylistic arrogance"?
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
worm - whats that about??
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by breandan
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
MG - No, ABSOLUTELY not what I meant to say!! I think we are in agreement on this issue.
What I *intended* to convey was this:
It seems that there are a lot of different styles in traditional music - all the way from Coleman to Lunasa. They are all, objectively speaking, equally valid. Some people like to impose their preferences on others by belittling other players and styles - THAT slagging is what I detest.
I don;t think cranns are stylistic arrogance at all. Heck, I play 'em all the time (see my fingering for them above) But nor is the lack of them. What bugs me is when people imply that that cranners are better then the cran-less, or the cranless are somehow "purer" or more legitimate than the cranners. the point is that there is room in this type of music for lots of styles without one group slagging another.
I can totally see why my original comment would be taken in the exact opposite manner it was intended. Apologies for the confusion.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
"Some people like to impose their preferences on others by belittling other players and styles"
Worm, you said it... this is the aspect of discussions here that bothers me the most.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
You can encounter it on any music-related forum. On Harmony Central (a guitar board) this form of slagging has entered a baroque phase, in fact. There are incredibly long, elaborate, convoluted attacks by metal heads against new-wavers, vice-versa, and so on. Occasionally entertaining, but ultimately a waste of time.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Got to agree with you guys on that.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Yes, but you also like to hang from ropes hundreds of feet up in the air, David. :p
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
twbam: Yes, I agree, - there's plenty of performers and bands that I don't care for particularly. Everybody has them. And if you would care to ask me why, I'd be happy to tell you.
It's that some people seem to go out of their way to knock down others that I find fairly obnoxious. It's one thing to state a preference, it's another to dismiss entire styles as "unworthy."
I try to always phrase my dislikes not in terms of "So and so sucks!" but rather, "so and so's playing doesn't appeal to me that much." See the difference? Objective vs. subjective.
Man, I should have taken my meds before posting the original comment.
# Posted on January 27th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Without all the fighting what would thesession.org be?
# Posted on January 28th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
A better place.
# Posted on January 28th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
This IS mighty dull compared to many forums. I rather like it
# Posted on January 28th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
So it's 5am and I got in from the pub and then had some quite tunes (and a few songs) at the house with a few guests and I sign on to this forum to see new developments and I can't help but notice that I'm now musically arrogant and belittling?
I can't have critical opinions? Must I now only post to blow smoke up someones arse?
Crans traditionally weren't played on the flute and to point this out while stating my own musical preferences is a display of arrogance? I just simply don't understand that. I never once belittled a playing style and if you read that in my words it wasn't my attention and that is a reflection upon you, not me. I never once in this thread said so and so sucks and I never once got personal so I really don't appreciate being called arrogant. Are you saying that I'm not allowed to express my opinions and contribute my thought to this group?
# Posted on January 28th 2006 by JackMurphy
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Jack, give it a rest. If you choose to be offended, even though you weren't even mentioned, I won;t stop you, but there are better things to worry about.
# Posted on January 28th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
ehm... maybe submitting this discussion wasn't a good idea...
# Posted on January 28th 2006 by gian marco
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Actually - I reread the entire thread. . .and I probably come off sounding like a jerk to some here, especially Jack M. REacting to issues elsewhere, or something. PLease accept my apology.
# Posted on January 28th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
No gian, it's a fine thread... or at least it started out fine. The problems commenced when the 'cran or not to cran' debate began. People started posturing and taking positions as if we were debating abortion rights or something. Amazing.
# Posted on January 28th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Am I the only one ( except the beginners ) not able to make a decent D cran on the flute?
Hehehe, sorry Wormdiet... I guess I shouldn't be checking thesession at 5am especially when I haven't even gone to bed yet. I just assumed because you were refering to me because you bought this issue up on this thread where as far as I can tell there wasn't much fighting and I was the one being mildy controversial.
Gian don't worry, this is a fine thread and I'm sure more than one or two benefitted.
# Posted on January 28th 2006 by JackMurphy