I've been looking for Riverdance shows on the tv many times, and I've been disturbed at each time ! I don't know what to thing about that ! Is this very good for image of ITM and for ITM itself ?
What do you thing ?
I saw it live a couple of weeks ago in Stockholm. The show itself is very well put in the sense that they really worked on it to make it the best commercial show as possible. The band members know their job very well, I guess the dancers know it too (I don't know that much, apart from flamenco and yes, the flamenco dancer was excellent). Everything was perfect, that's the real limit. It's too perfect to be realistic. I have this idea in my mind that this kind of music is made for improvising and not to function as the paper which wraps up the perfect present. But all in all I liked it.
Marina
Riverdance certainly has been a boon for Irish stepdancing! Our school probably wouldn't exist if it hadn't been for it and all the interest it's generated. We were afraid that after the furor died down a bit that the students would go away, but that hasn't happened so far...knock on wood.
Anyway, we tend to look on the dancing in Riverdance in a way that's similar to the way I look at the music in it -- it's excellent dancing, not truly traditional but certainly based on traditional with a lot of other influences on it, and danced by wonderful expert dancers.
The musicians were largely miming and the dance taps are play back from a pre-recorded master tape. There's a hilarious story from the time one of the troupes were on tour in Japan-
Apparently the technicians had got the dry ice mixture wrong and certain chemicals chrystalized on the dance floor making it as slippery as ice just before the show. So, big opening swell of saxes, strings and drums, 40 dancers or what ever dash out onto the stage - and every one of them ends up on their backs with their legs in the air!
The pre-recorded music and taps continued on for a minute while the dancers picked themselves up and the musicians looked on in horror.
We still have never made up our minds -- is it more irritating to see a great dancer dancing and not be able to hear his taps, or listen to taps happening at a different time from the actual dancer's taps? (Every dancer knows how easy it is to deviate from the beat, and it's usually pretty obvious to another dancer when the taps are prerecorded.)
We saw Trinity not too long ago, and they are very frank and upfront that the musicians are playing along with prerecorded music on certain things -- Liz Carroll playing the fiddle and such. It was kind of weird.
What?? I suddenly feel very naive. I had no idea that's how it is done! When I first saw Riverdance I was absolutely spellbound. The sheer number of dancers all at once and of course Flatley and Butler. Even after our Public TV channel showed it about 20 times, parts of it still had me amazed. It sure wasn't very traditional, but what skill!
I think it was also good in that it got people interested in Irish music and culture who otherwise might never have noticed it. Some people were captivated enough to look deeper and learn to dance or play themselves. Steeleye Span was what got me interested back in the mid 70's and Riverdance did it for people in the 90's, I guess.
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain, eh? Another illusion shattered...
Oh, there's SOME good reasons for it -- for instance, part of the reason that the taps are prerecorded was that they just couldn't afford the sheer amount of technology it would have taken to mike the taps across the stage properly, and it would have been bloody hell to tour it, that's for sure. Also, audience have come to expect that the music will sound a certain way -- that's true of even recordings of session music these days, most recordings of sessions don't sound much like sessions actually do.
Sort of lame reasons, in my mind, but hey, I'm not the producers with the money.
Personally, I'd rather hear and see live everything, but I suppose that the average theatre goer on the Great White Way wouldn't necessarily agree with me if they knew what that meant...I guess...
But it's worth noting that somebody had to record the stuff. And all the dancers really are dancing what you're hearing, you just couldn't hear it over the music and such.
I have never seen Riverdance but I have seen Lord of the Dance - another Michael Flatley creation - I enjoy watching it but is it just me or is Michael Flatley so far up his own - he must think he's god - it's almost funny.
That makes perfect sense, Zina. I just never gave any thought to how people in the back of a huge venue would be able to hear the tapping over the music, even if there were 40 or so going at once. You can tell I don't go to live theater shows much, huh?
Great story, Harry. Ouch! The dancing looks to be physically punishing enough without suddenly landing flat on your back. I wonder if some technicians were looking for new jobs the next day
If you have ever been to a stomp show, You would notice the amazing job they did with the mics. I believe they could mic it fairly well. I wonder....
As For Lord Flatly - My wife and I went to see Lord of the Dance. The Videos did not convey exactly how much of the show was truly focused on him. Even during the Instrumental showcase, He joined the musicians with an extremely ornate flute. He played an Easy Reel but the back up made it seem like he was doing something incredible. The Rest of the Musicians left the stage and he stayed to take bows from the audience's thunderous applause. He could use a tad more humility.
Overall - both of them were good shows for me. We can criticize all we want in our own ways but Both Riverdance and Lord of the Dance were overwhelming successes. They sure did something right and I wish I had been one of the musicians in either show.
I am not past the point of prostituting my art for some good money.
The shows were great international successes. Why?
Because they made traditional forms mass palatable by introducing such broadly attractive themes as cleaned up 'ethnicy' music, short skirts, tight pants and grand,circus style,spectacle.
To prostitute your art is one thing, but once we forget that we are doing this (or are not aware that we are doing it) we then run the risk of prostituting a lot more in the worst possible way, through ignorance.
My fear would be that they have started an ugly, pervasive new trend that is seeping back to grass roots Irish traditional culture (post riverdance music is almost a new 'style' or I'T'M genre!)and that people are too caught up in the lustre of their success to recognise their negative effects (as is the case with many issues in Ireland of the 'celtic tiger').
I hope you understand that I travel this island over playing music and meeting many musicians and that I might feel this effect more accutely coming from the perspective of someone who rejoices more in the older styles of playing and who laments their waning.
I remember being really suprised that it was an Irish production. It seemed more like something someone in the USA would have come up with. But I've never been to Ireland and I *know* I have a really outdated idea of what it's like there!
Harry, could you describe in more detail what you hear happening when you meet and play with folks across Ireland? I figured that the music from the show was pretty much relegated to the New Agey/"Celtic" genre by most ITM players, especially in Ireland where people (I think?) know more what constitutes real ITM than many people in other places. Anyway, I'm completely ignorant about all this and would like a clearer idea of how you see Riverdance changing ITM over there. Maybe it's like the Nashville-ization of Country music that's been happening here for years?
Christine et al,
The sort of aggressive market 'remoulding' of traditonal or stylistically distinct minority musics and the misunderstandings and handy, unadressed ignorance sorrounding them is by no means unique to ITM, and we have a generous share of those in Ireland who are happy not to look at our own culture any deeper than the said shows (and who actually might rejoice in it's "coming of age"!) so I would'nt blame it on US ethics. Big business is an island unto itself, and I suppose it'll always be that way.
But the effect on some musicians of my generation (I'm 28yrs) is that in seeing the success of the spectacle of such events , they pander to this new low, common denomonating , mono cultural soundtrack. I feel in adopting this approach, young musicians (and some older ones!) are stepping further away from what might actually make ITM so attractive- it's singularity of tone and integral diversity.
I don't want to paint too bleak a picture, there are some great young players with admirable grounding in regional styles ,but are they being nurtured and pushed to the fore?(There are a few musicians, I admit who are doing innovative things for better reasons).
I suppose it's a question of what's illusive and immesurable in the IT arts not being condusive to the bigger market. But our own government is not treating ITM in ANY form as a sustainable resource. Considering the huge moneys it generates for the tourist industry alone it deserves some recompense, if we have to look at it in monetary terms.
A freind of mine raised an interesting point recently when he suggested a new category for more contempory irish instrumental music to separate it from the enduring styles- he suggested a name to encapsulate the movement away from older styles as is the case with Contemporary Jazz- it would certainly be a start if people not in the know knew what they were listening to. Maybe the dance show stuff deserves another category unto itself.
Actually, no, you can't mike the floor very easily, due to the special dance floor surface they put down (apparently), and that there's about three times the amount of company members in one of the big dance shows than there is in a dance production like Stomp (which was FANTASTIC, I really loved it), or so I've been told, anyway
Hmmm, Harry. So, Contemporary Traditional? It just sort of sounds like "military intelligence" and "jumbo shrimp", you know?
This is an interesting conversation topic for me, as I'm going to shortly be working on a dance show for my dance school. I know they're going to want the whole sort of Riverdancey, bass/keyboards/whatever sound, and it's going to be interesting, because, while I'm not really a purist, I do have to have a certain...traditional overall respectfulness to music I'm willing to play. I've been dreading trying to put together the group of musicians, and then trying to keep them going down mainly the traditional track -- just the fact that I'm thinking about a string bass player sort of makes my scalp crawl a little....
Riverdance is what first sparked my interest in Irish music. I still enjoy watching the show today every now and then (I am madly in love with Jean Butler), but I have since discovered much better Irish music. When I first bought the Riverdance soudtrack, you couldn't pull me away from it, but now you'll find me listening to Sean Keane, Mary Bergin, and Cathal McConnell while my Riverdance CD just gathers dust somewhere in this mess of a bedroom of mine.
Being a fan also of traditional American "country" music, I get pretty bummed out to see pop stars like Shania Twain, Billy Ray Cyrus, and any number of one-hit wonders being labeled "country artists" just because there's a fiddle in the band (sometimes) or because they sing with a slight hint of Southern twang (if you're lucky). The current popularity of traditional American bluegrass may seem heartening to some of the more optimistic aficionados of traditional American music, but I really don't think this fad will last more than another year. Still, maybe ITM could benefit from an Irish version of "O Brother, Where Art Thou" to bring ITM greater exposure to the ignorant masses. Any screenwriters out there?
What? Now Britney too? Nothing is sacred to you guys?
Seriously, Britney Spears *is* a good stand-in for what has become of the muzik biz in the US: figure out what works, stick with it, make money. It's the same smell that i get from Riverdance. So yes, it's very successfull, yes, the girls were lovely and it was fun, but i don't like it much, it doesn't speak to my soul.
Riverdance? Are we back on this old subject again? Good for some friends who got paid to do it - thats all very well, but really nothing like trad as we all know. The boys got to perve on jean butler - and the girls got michael flatley - I know who won on that point and it wasnt the girls)
Riverdance is a spectacle and as such should not be confused with what goes on in the session. In a way it's not that different from what the Chieftains did 40 years ago. If it has brought some people to the music and dance by way of introduction then good for them as far as I'm concerned.
All this guff above about 'traditional dance' misses the point that almost all of the so called traditional dances, especially Ceili dancing, are inventions of this century and many of them during the 50's.
I enjoyed seeing it immensely and would encourage others to have a shufty as well.
While I agree with Harry that many of the 'old styles' are disappearing I believe that's as much to do with the recording industry here over the past thirty years. But many young musicians do still have the hunger for these styles and incorporate them into their way of doing things.
I also think that it has a lot to do with the mobility of musicians. The regional styles grew up from the fact that it was nigh on impossible to travel much outside your own area until the 60's or 70's whereas now many musicians can travel the length of Ireland in a few hours and the boundaries between us get smaller and smaller.
Well, yes of course, Brendan, about the traditional dance, except that the annoying thing is that students show up expecting to be taught to dance just like in Riverdance.... *sigh*
On traditional dance ,Brendan. I recognise that the popular forms you mention are fairly recent (Ceili dancing being a particularly pale form devised in the controlled demise of the country house dances), and that such forms as Set Dancing are borrowings from European dance fads, but I am not questioning change in ITM (it is ,of course nessecary in any healthy tradition)- just if the reasons for such changes are sound or damaging.
I think to suggest that regionality is simply the product of a lack of communication dose'nt go all the way to explaining the threatened demise of many important and unique things in modern playing as displayed in the old styles in these times of mass communication. I hear elements of older playing in most modern music, but little of the older tone, feeling and rhythm. We have the technology to communicate whatever we want ,but are we using it in a responsible way as regards the surviving old styles of Irish music?
It seems people are ever more willing to accept the skeletal ideas of ITM in more marketable and easily palatable forms. It is true that the dance shows have attracted interest back to actual old style music which is positive. It is as true that in more cases to the wider audiance it has done nothing to explain or represent it's roots, the olds boys are still quaint,out of tune old duffers in the corner(possibly condusive to a holiday in Ireland) and the oldest surviving form of step dance (sean nos as It is now called) is a little known but vaugely recognisable thing without the alluring ornament, inane smiles and short skirts.
It may seem like a tired topic, but I still see it as central to examining Irish music's place in the world now ,and If it can be managed or approached better to sustain it in it's older(and to my ear, more interesting) forms.
I wonder what the message boards would have said when polkas were first introduced into the Irish trad musicians' (and dancers') repertoire?
As I understand it, they came to be accepted due to the Jenny Lind phenomenon. Jenny was a bit of a Michael Flatley in her day whose promotion by Phineas T Barnum (of three-ring-circus fame) led to world-wide adulation in the 1840's. Her fame and preference for the polka led many in Europe (and the indisputably traditional Kerry musicians in particular) to adopt the polka as a staple.
For Jenny then, as for Riverdance now: resistance is futile!
If Riverdance comes back to Sacramento I'll try to have a "shufty" ( a look-see, a gander?). I'm sure it's even more impressive live. That's assuming I can afford tix for a seat less than a 1/4 mile away!
Yes, Pop music with a twang is what it is, whistlemanhimself. I've never been a fan of Country music, I was exposed to waaaay too much of it growing up, but I find myself liking the old stuff now as an antidote to all the Shanias. I knew I'd had it with modern Country music when Buck Owens didn't make me want to run out of the house screaming any more
Zina, are the fellas insisting on leather pants and vests yet? Heh. Oh, and headbands? You'll know you're in trouble, then.
Polkas! Aaagh, polkas! Or as Kevin Glackin calls them, "f***in' polkas."
He's famous for hating them. When the Scoiltrad lads came to town, I was talking to Conal at one end of the table and Kevin was down at the other end. Somebody started up a set of polkas, and Conal interrupted himself to start laughing and said, "Look at Kevin Glackin, playing the polka!" During the set I wandered over to the other end of the table and sat down next to Kevin, who winked at me. I said in his ear, "Lovely polka you've got there, Kevin." He started laughing as he played away and replied "I hate f***in' polkas! I hate 'em!"
So, likely, grego, that's what at least some of the players on the message boards might have said. Kerry players aside.
Nice one Grego....)
There's a nice example of dancers setting the bar for the instrumentalists. lf it happened today I would like to think that there would be at least a few musicians who would respond by interpreting new forms with a bit of the musical wit, originality and style displayed by their predecessors , and not going for the flashy or obvious.
Polkas have'nt done any harm as far as I can see, except to certain fiddle players...... I wonder if he's partial to any of the Donegal Polkas?.......
Awwww, I love polkas (except John Ryan's. Curses on the Titanic movie) Especially now that I'm getting that pulse down. But then I tend to like tunes that swing a bit. Ok, a lot. I think it's interesting how the Irish tradition picked up and integrated all these tune types from elsewhere. Mazurkas, anyone?
Supposedly, if we just played music indigenous to Ireland we'd only be playing jigs...
I'm a closet polka lover, at least I love to play them. It seems easier to get the swing going on a polka or slide. But, it is rare to have someone start a polka at any of the (admittedly few) local sessions. And the biggest shame of all is that I know the names of the ones that I play (didn't someone on the list say it was ok to play a polka if you didn't know the name?). CJ, if you tell anyone that I said I loved to play polkas, I will catagorically deny it (and then visit you late at night when you least expect it)!
Harry,
I loved those Donegal polkas (at least that's what I think they were) at Scoil Acla in 2001. I forget the name of the first one but the second was Bonaparte's March Across the Alps, or something like that. Anyways, they're great tunes - they sound more like marches than polkas though.
Best,
Chris
I believe it was Brad who quoted a friend of his who says that people who know the names of all the polkas they play are #@$%! Which still cracks me up.
Dunno, Harry -- I believe Glackin categorically hates all polkas, as a matter of principle, but we didn't discuss it more than that, so perhaps I'm wrong.
Chris, just now saw the post asking after leather pants and headbands. Shhhhh, don't tell anyone, but those of us who are not Flatheads make fun of him, a bit. He was a wonderful, topnotch dancer who did heaps for Irish dancing worldwide, and what stage presence, but yeah -- just a little more humbleness probably would have helped.
The first year our school had a dance drama competition (they called it the I Like Mike event) at our school recital, our senior class did one called The Lord WithOut Pants. It started with a seriously choreographed bit. It went downhill from there. Our TCRG's father good-naturedly donned a headband, kilt, dress jacket and no shirt or shoes, and one of the dancers clacked one of those wooden noisemakers to make the sound of his "taps" as we danced around the stage piling flowers and medals on him and flirting with him. We asked one of our students who dances modern to do our Lady In Red writhing across the floor of the stage. We had placards with funny captions on them, especially the one that said "APPLAUSE" every time our "Lord" moved. One of the parents who was video taping the thing laughed so hard he fell out of his seat and the video camera bounced all over the place.
Poor Jack - He saw me post that & the next week he said to me, "Sheesh, you can't say anything to a friend over a beer" His mantra is now a staple in the pantheon of international lowbrow irish music jokes.
Dang, I'd love to see a video of that. You guys could sell it and it probably would make more than a bake sale!
Whew, I've forgotten the name of the last three polkas I learned. Err, am I still a *censored* if I knew them once? Not that I'd lose any sleep over it I figure if I don't love the tunes I'm playing there's no point in putting in the time and work to learn them. But I am going to start pretending I don't know the name of *any* of the tunes I play. I think it will increase my ITM credibility! Or make people think I'm prematurely senile, one or the other
Actually, the traveling step for Scottish country dancing is just a version of the polka I learned when I was a kid, so maybe you've been playing more polkas than you knew - (tho Miss Milligan probably rolls over in her grave every time I describe the step that way - )
The slow step is for strathspeys - the traveling strathspey step goes forward (or, sometimes, backwards) and is usually defined as step-close-step-hop (a slow schottish with toes pointed/turn out ballet styling - whoops, there goes Miss Milligan again). The sideways step in the same rhythm is the strathspey setting step (once to each side) - equivalent to a balance in contra or English country. The fast time traveling step (the one that is like my old polka) is hop-step-close-step in ballet styling, and the fast time setting step is called a pas-de-bas, and is the step that's (most often) "on the spot" and goes step-step-step/jete. All of them are supposed to be done in what I think is called half-point in ballet - at any rate, on your toes. It's what makes fast Scottish country dance fly, and strathspeys elegant. Or should.
Hmmm.... well Zina, Harry taught me the Donegal polkas, and he taught me the names, which I've now forgotten... since he was the one that had the names and I've forgotten them does that mean he's a (*&#(*&%(# ?
This reminds me, has anyone ever seen Joannie Madden do her Michael Flatley impersonation? During the grand finale of their show ("they" being Cherish the Ladies"), Joannie goes off stage and then reappears with her sleeves rolled up and a headband around her forehead, a la Flatley. She preceeds to leap, skip and bounce around the stage, giving her best impression of the arse himself, usually to uproarous laughter.
Joannie told me a great story about performing in Chicago a number of years back. Who should be sitting front and center but the entire Flatley family, excepting Michael of course. During the intermission Joannie tells the rest of the band that there is no way she is going to do her Flatley impersonation with the family there. They just smile and nod. When it gets to the end of the show sure enough the girls break into the set Joannie usually dances on, and Joannie says to herself "what the heck!" and does her impersonation, making sure never to make eye contact with any of the Flatleys.
It is customary for Joannie to come around to the main entrance and thank the audience members and they file out. Well sure enough, the last people to file out were the Flatleys, and old Mrs. Flatley, Michael's mom is clutching her chest, weezing while being held up by Michael's brother. Joannie is panicking at this point, thinking she must have given poor Mrs. Flatley a heart attack. Anyhow, the Flately entourage finally makes it up to where Joannie is waiting. As they approach Mrs. Flatley bursts out laughing, and says to Joannie... "You know, that was the funniest thing I've ever seen. Someone should have done that to Michael long ago. Next time he is going to have to come along and see it for himself!". Boy oh boy was Joannie relieved, though she's been on the lookout for Michael at their shows ever since!
CJ! You mean, there's such a thing as a fast Scottish country dance!? I never knew! Seriously, I thought they were all slow. The fast traveling step sounds suspiciously like the promenade step (usually called "3s" or "123s). I can't remember what a jeté is, though.
Heeheehee, Chris, that's hysterical! I'm going to have to tell that one around...
let this be a lesson to us all of the power of the word when spoken over beer. For months I have walked in secret shame, feeling as if there was a huge green P plastered on my chest for all to see. :D
Chris, "Bonaparte...." is'nt associated with Donegal as far as I know. There is a small body of polkas from up there, but they are not common Donegal repertoire and are few and fairly obscure.
Zina, I have been known to $*^@&* for a small fee.... but that's a different thing altogether.
The jete is the straight-legged-pointed-toe kick at the end of the step-step-step - the technical description from the Manual of Scottish Country Dancing is - well, you probably don't want to know.
Zina - how did you get the mark over your last e in jete?
"Available immediately is a series of complete note-for-note transcriptions (exact grace notes, poppings, bowings, notes on fingerings) of traditional Irish music played by the best Irish musicians on available recorded media. Precisely transcribed by a composer, in proper musical notation as standardized during the 20th century. No cranning, rolling, or other ambiguous symbols. Actual rhythms (this does not mean complicated) and actual notes and grace notes are written out exactly as they occur. So you can stop guessing and learn how it's done. So-called "triplets" are notated properly, in the rhythm they are actually played. Stop the confusion! (There are very few actual triplets and fewer to none other tuplets in traditional Irish music, although I see them being habitually notated as such.) "
Oh my gosh, Glauber. How...interesting. Of course, I totally find exact transcriptions very interesting to study and to even sometimes learn a setting note for note as a learning exercise, and of course *technically* he's correct, a classical triplet is not the same as an ITM triplet (as ITM doesn't translate very well to classical music notation), but it couldn't really be clearer that this guy doesn't seem to "get" it -- he seems to be advocating that you regularly *play* the notated tunes note for note as someone else did...aaargh.
Hopefully that's not actually the case, but I'm dreadfully afraid it is.
Still, I wouldn't mind seeing a transcription or two -- I'm always very interested in seeing how another (and better) player plays something and study it, break it down and learn from it. I really have liked Manfred's Chiff and Fipple board that does that, for instance.
CJ, yes, actually I *would* like to know, just for general knowledge, but probably no one else would. Anyway, on my character key map, the e with the accent is alt-0233, but check your own character key map on your computer to find where all your special characters are. (In Windows, it's generally your main drive, Windows folder, and the character key map is generally called something like charmap.exe.)
Hi glauber ..... oh my god, I really don´t know what to say about that .....
Heaven or hell knows why I bought (mailordered blind) Martin Hayes´ (no no no, please no comments on that in this thread ...) under the moon collection (transcription of the 13 tracks of the same CD). transcription was made by some american musician (some MacWhoknows - really don´t remember) and he tried to show exactly note by note what Hayes played and when you compare it to the cd you might notice, that he missed it more or less by a width of a hair .... well, that is, what i call stupid work to reach nonsense (exept Mel Bay sells the book to some fools like me and he gets some cheques from time to time) - who wants to reach that dubios goal needs these notes AND CAREFUL LISTENING to the cd to play it exactly like Hayes did after some hard practicing .... a roll symbol here a cran sympol there and a few cuts and other grace notes would have done it as well to this point.
To come back to the subject: On Hannover Fair 2001 one of the big fork-lift truck manufacturers (might have been Clark or Linde - really don´t remember) darkened their booth every two hours. some playback intro sound started while a fluteplayer, a guitar player and a female fiddler came out of the fog machine´s hiss and started playing; some fork lift trucks drove in a bunch of dancers on their fork and then they started dancing parts of riverdance ..... it was a selection of about 30 dancers from the riverdance Ersatz cast - the show was about 30 to 45 minutes and was repeated every two hours for seven days. I went three times there to see it again. The dancers were great (the audience could be very close so one got a feeling for their physical work) - but the sound system was so perfect, that I wasn´t able to find out what was played live and what was play back.... it was nice but I forgot about it very soon.
Zina - couldn't get to your member page, so here's the part from the manual specifically on the jete - if you'd like the 2 pages on the pas de basque (sic) I can .pdf them or .gif or something them to you -
"3. To complete the foot positions of the step, the jete is added. On the third beat, as the weight is transferred to the back foot the front foot is extended diagonally from Third position to Fourth Intermediate position, leg straight, toe pointed down, approximately two inches from the floor."
Grego et al,
Tune no. 94 in Brathnach's Ceol Rince na hE/ireann goes under the alternate titles-' Jenny Lind 'or 'Jenny Lind's favorite'. Interestingly it does sounds similar in tone to European popular pieces of Linds times. It was collected from Thomas McGuire, I would love to hear how he interpreted it- the notation gives little away in that respect.
I might try to look for it in the audio section of the Traditional Music Archive in Dublin.
Picked up the album the other day to see what all the fuss was about, I suppose you had to see the show and dancers to be wowed. Found the music to be agreeable background noise while I was playing on the computer, but I couldn't pick out any detectable, much less memorable tune (the lament, though exquisitely performed and recorded, was a bit like other tunes of its kind that I'd heard, only less so, if that makes any sense). The variations on the rhythms (I don't mean the evidently exotic numbers) were intriguing, but they seemed to remind me of things English concertina player Alistair Anderson was trying out in extended suites he was writing back in the '80's (which did feature strong original tunes, incidentally) - at any rate I felt I'd heard something like it before. Anyway, I was amused by the story in one of the above entries about the dry ice going wrong and turning the stage into an ice rink...
Riverdance ....?
Riverdance ....?
I've been looking for Riverdance shows on the tv many times, and I've been disturbed at each time ! I don't know what to thing about that ! Is this very good for image of ITM and for ITM itself ?
What do you thing ?
# Posted on September 17th 2002 by kolaz333
Re: Riverdance ....?
I think the girls do look pretty!
# Posted on September 17th 2002 by glauber
Re: Riverdance ....?
I saw it live a couple of weeks ago in Stockholm. The show itself is very well put in the sense that they really worked on it to make it the best commercial show as possible. The band members know their job very well, I guess the dancers know it too (I don't know that much, apart from flamenco and yes, the flamenco dancer was excellent). Everything was perfect, that's the real limit. It's too perfect to be realistic. I have this idea in my mind that this kind of music is made for improvising and not to function as the paper which wraps up the perfect present. But all in all I liked it.
Marina
# Posted on September 17th 2002 by marina
Re: Riverdance ....?
Riverdance certainly has been a boon for Irish stepdancing! Our school probably wouldn't exist if it hadn't been for it and all the interest it's generated. We were afraid that after the furor died down a bit that the students would go away, but that hasn't happened so far...knock on wood.
Anyway, we tend to look on the dancing in Riverdance in a way that's similar to the way I look at the music in it -- it's excellent dancing, not truly traditional but certainly based on traditional with a lot of other influences on it, and danced by wonderful expert dancers.
Zina
# Posted on September 17th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Riverdance ....?
The musicians were largely miming and the dance taps are play back from a pre-recorded master tape. There's a hilarious story from the time one of the troupes were on tour in Japan-
Apparently the technicians had got the dry ice mixture wrong and certain chemicals chrystalized on the dance floor making it as slippery as ice just before the show. So, big opening swell of saxes, strings and drums, 40 dancers or what ever dash out onto the stage - and every one of them ends up on their backs with their legs in the air!
The pre-recorded music and taps continued on for a minute while the dancers picked themselves up and the musicians looked on in horror.
Needless to say the audiance were'nt too happy.
Regards, Harry.
http://www.strayceol.com
# Posted on September 17th 2002 by Harry B
Re: Riverdance ....?
We still have never made up our minds -- is it more irritating to see a great dancer dancing and not be able to hear his taps, or listen to taps happening at a different time from the actual dancer's taps? (Every dancer knows how easy it is to deviate from the beat, and it's usually pretty obvious to another dancer when the taps are prerecorded.)
We saw Trinity not too long ago, and they are very frank and upfront that the musicians are playing along with prerecorded music on certain things -- Liz Carroll playing the fiddle and such. It was kind of weird.
Zina
# Posted on September 17th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Riverdance ....?
What?? I suddenly feel very naive. I had no idea that's how it is done! When I first saw Riverdance I was absolutely spellbound. The sheer number of dancers all at once and of course Flatley and Butler. Even after our Public TV channel showed it about 20 times, parts of it still had me amazed. It sure wasn't very traditional, but what skill!
I think it was also good in that it got people interested in Irish music and culture who otherwise might never have noticed it. Some people were captivated enough to look deeper and learn to dance or play themselves. Steeleye Span was what got me interested back in the mid 70's and Riverdance did it for people in the 90's, I guess.
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain, eh? Another illusion shattered...
# Posted on September 17th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: Riverdance ....?
Oh, there's SOME good reasons for it -- for instance, part of the reason that the taps are prerecorded was that they just couldn't afford the sheer amount of technology it would have taken to mike the taps across the stage properly, and it would have been bloody hell to tour it, that's for sure. Also, audience have come to expect that the music will sound a certain way -- that's true of even recordings of session music these days, most recordings of sessions don't sound much like sessions actually do.
Sort of lame reasons, in my mind, but hey, I'm not the producers with the money.
Personally, I'd rather hear and see live everything, but I suppose that the average theatre goer on the Great White Way wouldn't necessarily agree with me if they knew what that meant...I guess...
Zina
# Posted on September 17th 2002 by Zina Lee
P.S. Christine
But it's worth noting that somebody had to record the stuff. And all the dancers really are dancing what you're hearing, you just couldn't hear it over the music and such.
# Posted on September 17th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Riverdance ....?
I have never seen Riverdance but I have seen Lord of the Dance - another Michael Flatley creation - I enjoy watching it but is it just me or is Michael Flatley so far up his own - he must think he's god - it's almost funny.
# Posted on September 17th 2002 by Nutty Nessie
Re: Riverdance ....?
That makes perfect sense, Zina. I just never gave any thought to how people in the back of a huge venue would be able to hear the tapping over the music, even if there were 40 or so going at once. You can tell I don't go to live theater shows much, huh?
Great story, Harry. Ouch! The dancing looks to be physically punishing enough without suddenly landing flat on your back. I wonder if some technicians were looking for new jobs the next day
# Posted on September 17th 2002 by soft black stars
Tapping
They could always mike the floor, no?
# Posted on September 17th 2002 by glauber
Good Point
If you have ever been to a stomp show, You would notice the amazing job they did with the mics. I believe they could mic it fairly well. I wonder....
As For Lord Flatly - My wife and I went to see Lord of the Dance. The Videos did not convey exactly how much of the show was truly focused on him. Even during the Instrumental showcase, He joined the musicians with an extremely ornate flute. He played an Easy Reel but the back up made it seem like he was doing something incredible. The Rest of the Musicians left the stage and he stayed to take bows from the audience's thunderous applause. He could use a tad more humility.
Overall - both of them were good shows for me. We can criticize all we want in our own ways but Both Riverdance and Lord of the Dance were overwhelming successes. They sure did something right and I wish I had been one of the musicians in either show.
I am not past the point of prostituting my art for some good money.
Cheers and I welcome the retorts.
Mark
# Posted on September 17th 2002 by Mark Cordova
Re: Riverdance ....?
Mark,
I applaud your honesty!
The shows were great international successes. Why?
Because they made traditional forms mass palatable by introducing such broadly attractive themes as cleaned up 'ethnicy' music, short skirts, tight pants and grand,circus style,spectacle.
To prostitute your art is one thing, but once we forget that we are doing this (or are not aware that we are doing it) we then run the risk of prostituting a lot more in the worst possible way, through ignorance.
My fear would be that they have started an ugly, pervasive new trend that is seeping back to grass roots Irish traditional culture (post riverdance music is almost a new 'style' or I'T'M genre!)and that people are too caught up in the lustre of their success to recognise their negative effects (as is the case with many issues in Ireland of the 'celtic tiger').
I hope you understand that I travel this island over playing music and meeting many musicians and that I might feel this effect more accutely coming from the perspective of someone who rejoices more in the older styles of playing and who laments their waning.
Regards all, Harry.
http://www.strayceol.com
# Posted on September 17th 2002 by Harry B
Re: Riverdance ....?
I remember being really suprised that it was an Irish production. It seemed more like something someone in the USA would have come up with. But I've never been to Ireland and I *know* I have a really outdated idea of what it's like there!
Harry, could you describe in more detail what you hear happening when you meet and play with folks across Ireland? I figured that the music from the show was pretty much relegated to the New Agey/"Celtic" genre by most ITM players, especially in Ireland where people (I think?) know more what constitutes real ITM than many people in other places. Anyway, I'm completely ignorant about all this and would like a clearer idea of how you see Riverdance changing ITM over there. Maybe it's like the Nashville-ization of Country music that's been happening here for years?
Cluelessly yours
# Posted on September 17th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: Riverdance ....?
Christine et al,
The sort of aggressive market 'remoulding' of traditonal or stylistically distinct minority musics and the misunderstandings and handy, unadressed ignorance sorrounding them is by no means unique to ITM, and we have a generous share of those in Ireland who are happy not to look at our own culture any deeper than the said shows (and who actually might rejoice in it's "coming of age"!) so I would'nt blame it on US ethics. Big business is an island unto itself, and I suppose it'll always be that way.
But the effect on some musicians of my generation (I'm 28yrs) is that in seeing the success of the spectacle of such events , they pander to this new low, common denomonating , mono cultural soundtrack. I feel in adopting this approach, young musicians (and some older ones!) are stepping further away from what might actually make ITM so attractive- it's singularity of tone and integral diversity.
I don't want to paint too bleak a picture, there are some great young players with admirable grounding in regional styles ,but are they being nurtured and pushed to the fore?(There are a few musicians, I admit who are doing innovative things for better reasons).
I suppose it's a question of what's illusive and immesurable in the IT arts not being condusive to the bigger market. But our own government is not treating ITM in ANY form as a sustainable resource. Considering the huge moneys it generates for the tourist industry alone it deserves some recompense, if we have to look at it in monetary terms.
A freind of mine raised an interesting point recently when he suggested a new category for more contempory irish instrumental music to separate it from the enduring styles- he suggested a name to encapsulate the movement away from older styles as is the case with Contemporary Jazz- it would certainly be a start if people not in the know knew what they were listening to. Maybe the dance show stuff deserves another category unto itself.
Regards, Harry.
http://www.strayceol.com
# Posted on September 17th 2002 by Harry B
Re: Riverdance ....?
Actually, no, you can't mike the floor very easily, due to the special dance floor surface they put down (apparently), and that there's about three times the amount of company members in one of the big dance shows than there is in a dance production like Stomp (which was FANTASTIC, I really loved it), or so I've been told, anyway
Hmmm, Harry. So, Contemporary Traditional? It just sort of sounds like "military intelligence" and "jumbo shrimp", you know?
This is an interesting conversation topic for me, as I'm going to shortly be working on a dance show for my dance school. I know they're going to want the whole sort of Riverdancey, bass/keyboards/whatever sound, and it's going to be interesting, because, while I'm not really a purist, I do have to have a certain...traditional overall respectfulness to music I'm willing to play. I've been dreading trying to put together the group of musicians, and then trying to keep them going down mainly the traditional track -- just the fact that I'm thinking about a string bass player sort of makes my scalp crawl a little....
Zina
# Posted on September 17th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Riverdance ....?
Riverdance is what first sparked my interest in Irish music. I still enjoy watching the show today every now and then (I am madly in love with Jean Butler), but I have since discovered much better Irish music. When I first bought the Riverdance soudtrack, you couldn't pull me away from it, but now you'll find me listening to Sean Keane, Mary Bergin, and Cathal McConnell while my Riverdance CD just gathers dust somewhere in this mess of a bedroom of mine.
Being a fan also of traditional American "country" music, I get pretty bummed out to see pop stars like Shania Twain, Billy Ray Cyrus, and any number of one-hit wonders being labeled "country artists" just because there's a fiddle in the band (sometimes) or because they sing with a slight hint of Southern twang (if you're lucky). The current popularity of traditional American bluegrass may seem heartening to some of the more optimistic aficionados of traditional American music, but I really don't think this fad will last more than another year. Still, maybe ITM could benefit from an Irish version of "O Brother, Where Art Thou" to bring ITM greater exposure to the ignorant masses. Any screenwriters out there?
# Posted on September 17th 2002 by whistlemanhimself
Britney Spears
Britney spears :: American popular music
as
Riverdance :: ITM?
Maybe what I had written about Britney on my website also applies to this conversation, sort of:
http://www.geocities.com/grantaire_phx/news/old/020901.html
# Posted on September 17th 2002 by whistlemanhimself
Re: Riverdance ....?
What? Now Britney too? Nothing is sacred to you guys?
Seriously, Britney Spears *is* a good stand-in for what has become of the muzik biz in the US: figure out what works, stick with it, make money. It's the same smell that i get from Riverdance. So yes, it's very successfull, yes, the girls were lovely and it was fun, but i don't like it much, it doesn't speak to my soul.
# Posted on September 17th 2002 by glauber
Re: Riverdance ....?
Riverdance? Are we back on this old subject again? Good for some friends who got paid to do it - thats all very well, but really nothing like trad as we all know. The boys got to perve on jean butler - and the girls got michael flatley - I know who won on that point and it wasnt the girls
)
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by bb
Re: Riverdance ....?
Riverdance is a spectacle and as such should not be confused with what goes on in the session. In a way it's not that different from what the Chieftains did 40 years ago. If it has brought some people to the music and dance by way of introduction then good for them as far as I'm concerned.
All this guff above about 'traditional dance' misses the point that almost all of the so called traditional dances, especially Ceili dancing, are inventions of this century and many of them during the 50's.
I enjoyed seeing it immensely and would encourage others to have a shufty as well.
While I agree with Harry that many of the 'old styles' are disappearing I believe that's as much to do with the recording industry here over the past thirty years. But many young musicians do still have the hunger for these styles and incorporate them into their way of doing things.
I also think that it has a lot to do with the mobility of musicians. The regional styles grew up from the fact that it was nigh on impossible to travel much outside your own area until the 60's or 70's whereas now many musicians can travel the length of Ireland in a few hours and the boundaries between us get smaller and smaller.
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by breandan
Re: Riverdance ....?
Well, yes of course, Brendan, about the traditional dance, except that the annoying thing is that students show up expecting to be taught to dance just like in Riverdance.... *sigh*
Zina
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Riverdance ....?
On traditional dance ,Brendan. I recognise that the popular forms you mention are fairly recent (Ceili dancing being a particularly pale form devised in the controlled demise of the country house dances), and that such forms as Set Dancing are borrowings from European dance fads, but I am not questioning change in ITM (it is ,of course nessecary in any healthy tradition)- just if the reasons for such changes are sound or damaging.
I think to suggest that regionality is simply the product of a lack of communication dose'nt go all the way to explaining the threatened demise of many important and unique things in modern playing as displayed in the old styles in these times of mass communication. I hear elements of older playing in most modern music, but little of the older tone, feeling and rhythm. We have the technology to communicate whatever we want ,but are we using it in a responsible way as regards the surviving old styles of Irish music?
It seems people are ever more willing to accept the skeletal ideas of ITM in more marketable and easily palatable forms. It is true that the dance shows have attracted interest back to actual old style music which is positive. It is as true that in more cases to the wider audiance it has done nothing to explain or represent it's roots, the olds boys are still quaint,out of tune old duffers in the corner(possibly condusive to a holiday in Ireland) and the oldest surviving form of step dance (sean nos as It is now called) is a little known but vaugely recognisable thing without the alluring ornament, inane smiles and short skirts.
It may seem like a tired topic, but I still see it as central to examining Irish music's place in the world now ,and If it can be managed or approached better to sustain it in it's older(and to my ear, more interesting) forms.
Regards, Harry.
http://www.strayceol.com
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by Harry B
Re: Riverdance ....?
I've said it before but... isn't it great to be part of this ancient ITM tradition that's at least 50 years old?
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by glauber
Re: Riverdance ....?
I wonder what the message boards would have said when polkas were first introduced into the Irish trad musicians' (and dancers') repertoire?
As I understand it, they came to be accepted due to the Jenny Lind phenomenon. Jenny was a bit of a Michael Flatley in her day whose promotion by Phineas T Barnum (of three-ring-circus fame) led to world-wide adulation in the 1840's. Her fame and preference for the polka led many in Europe (and the indisputably traditional Kerry musicians in particular) to adopt the polka as a staple.
For Jenny then, as for Riverdance now: resistance is futile!
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by grego
Re: Riverdance ....?
If Riverdance comes back to Sacramento I'll try to have a "shufty" ( a look-see, a gander?). I'm sure it's even more impressive live. That's assuming I can afford tix for a seat less than a 1/4 mile away!
Yes, Pop music with a twang is what it is, whistlemanhimself. I've never been a fan of Country music, I was exposed to waaaay too much of it growing up, but I find myself liking the old stuff now as an antidote to all the Shanias. I knew I'd had it with modern Country music when Buck Owens didn't make me want to run out of the house screaming any more
Zina, are the fellas insisting on leather pants and vests yet? Heh. Oh, and headbands? You'll know you're in trouble, then.
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: Riverdance ....?
Polkas! Aaagh, polkas! Or as Kevin Glackin calls them, "f***in' polkas."
He's famous for hating them. When the Scoiltrad lads came to town, I was talking to Conal at one end of the table and Kevin was down at the other end. Somebody started up a set of polkas, and Conal interrupted himself to start laughing and said, "Look at Kevin Glackin, playing the polka!" During the set I wandered over to the other end of the table and sat down next to Kevin, who winked at me. I said in his ear, "Lovely polka you've got there, Kevin." He started laughing as he played away and replied "I hate f***in' polkas! I hate 'em!"
So, likely, grego, that's what at least some of the players on the message boards might have said. Kerry players aside.
Zina
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Riverdance ....?
Nice one Grego....
)
There's a nice example of dancers setting the bar for the instrumentalists. lf it happened today I would like to think that there would be at least a few musicians who would respond by interpreting new forms with a bit of the musical wit, originality and style displayed by their predecessors , and not going for the flashy or obvious.
Polkas have'nt done any harm as far as I can see, except to certain fiddle players...... I wonder if he's partial to any of the Donegal Polkas?.......
Regards, Harry.
http://www.strayceol.com
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by Harry B
Re: Riverdance ....?
Awwww, I love polkas (except John Ryan's. Curses on the Titanic movie) Especially now that I'm getting that pulse down. But then I tend to like tunes that swing a bit. Ok, a lot. I think it's interesting how the Irish tradition picked up and integrated all these tune types from elsewhere. Mazurkas, anyone?
Supposedly, if we just played music indigenous to Ireland we'd only be playing jigs...
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: Riverdance ....?
I'm a closet polka lover, at least I love to play them. It seems easier to get the swing going on a polka or slide. But, it is rare to have someone start a polka at any of the (admittedly few) local sessions. And the biggest shame of all is that I know the names of the ones that I play (didn't someone on the list say it was ok to play a polka if you didn't know the name?). CJ, if you tell anyone that I said I loved to play polkas, I will catagorically deny it (and then visit you late at night when you least expect it)!
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by chicagofiddler
Re: Riverdance ....?
Harry,
I loved those Donegal polkas (at least that's what I think they were) at Scoil Acla in 2001. I forget the name of the first one but the second was Bonaparte's March Across the Alps, or something like that. Anyways, they're great tunes - they sound more like marches than polkas though.
Best,
Chris
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by ChrisLaughlin
Re: Riverdance ....?
I believe it was Brad who quoted a friend of his who says that people who know the names of all the polkas they play are #@$%! Which still cracks me up.
Dunno, Harry -- I believe Glackin categorically hates all polkas, as a matter of principle, but we didn't discuss it more than that, so perhaps I'm wrong.
Chris, just now saw the post asking after leather pants and headbands. Shhhhh, don't tell anyone, but those of us who are not Flatheads make fun of him, a bit. He was a wonderful, topnotch dancer who did heaps for Irish dancing worldwide, and what stage presence, but yeah -- just a little more humbleness probably would have helped.
The first year our school had a dance drama competition (they called it the I Like Mike event) at our school recital, our senior class did one called The Lord WithOut Pants. It started with a seriously choreographed bit. It went downhill from there. Our TCRG's father good-naturedly donned a headband, kilt, dress jacket and no shirt or shoes, and one of the dancers clacked one of those wooden noisemakers to make the sound of his "taps" as we danced around the stage piling flowers and medals on him and flirting with him. We asked one of our students who dances modern to do our Lady In Red writhing across the floor of the stage. We had placards with funny captions on them, especially the one that said "APPLAUSE" every time our "Lord" moved. One of the parents who was video taping the thing laughed so hard he fell out of his seat and the video camera bounced all over the place.
Zina
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Riverdance ....?
Poor Jack - He saw me post that & the next week he said to me, "Sheesh, you can't say anything to a friend over a beer" His mantra is now a staple in the pantheon of international lowbrow irish music jokes.
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by Mad Baloney
Re: Riverdance ....?
Dang, I'd love to see a video of that. You guys could sell it and it probably would make more than a bake sale!
Whew, I've forgotten the name of the last three polkas I learned. Err, am I still a *censored* if I knew them once? Not that I'd lose any sleep over it
I figure if I don't love the tunes I'm playing there's no point in putting in the time and work to learn them. But I am going to start pretending I don't know the name of *any* of the tunes I play. I think it will increase my ITM credibility! Or make people think I'm prematurely senile, one or the other 
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: Riverdance ....?
lonefiddler -
My lips and my e-mailing fingers are sealed. . .
Actually, the traveling step for Scottish country dancing is just a version of the polka I learned when I was a kid, so maybe you've been playing more polkas than you knew - (tho Miss Milligan probably rolls over in her grave every time I describe the step that way - )
CJ
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by cj
Re: Riverdance ....?
The traveling step -- is that that sort of slow sideways hoppity skippity sort of thing that they do?
Zina
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Riverdance ....?
The slow step is for strathspeys - the traveling strathspey step goes forward (or, sometimes, backwards) and is usually defined as step-close-step-hop (a slow schottish with toes pointed/turn out ballet styling - whoops, there goes Miss Milligan again). The sideways step in the same rhythm is the strathspey setting step (once to each side) - equivalent to a balance in contra or English country. The fast time traveling step (the one that is like my old polka) is hop-step-close-step in ballet styling, and the fast time setting step is called a pas-de-bas, and is the step that's (most often) "on the spot" and goes step-step-step/jete. All of them are supposed to be done in what I think is called half-point in ballet - at any rate, on your toes. It's what makes fast Scottish country dance fly, and strathspeys elegant. Or should.
CJ
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by cj
Re: Riverdance ....?
Hmmm.... well Zina, Harry taught me the Donegal polkas, and he taught me the names, which I've now forgotten... since he was the one that had the names and I've forgotten them does that mean he's a (*&#(*&%(# ?
This reminds me, has anyone ever seen Joannie Madden do her Michael Flatley impersonation? During the grand finale of their show ("they" being Cherish the Ladies"), Joannie goes off stage and then reappears with her sleeves rolled up and a headband around her forehead, a la Flatley. She preceeds to leap, skip and bounce around the stage, giving her best impression of the arse himself, usually to uproarous laughter.
Joannie told me a great story about performing in Chicago a number of years back. Who should be sitting front and center but the entire Flatley family, excepting Michael of course. During the intermission Joannie tells the rest of the band that there is no way she is going to do her Flatley impersonation with the family there. They just smile and nod. When it gets to the end of the show sure enough the girls break into the set Joannie usually dances on, and Joannie says to herself "what the heck!" and does her impersonation, making sure never to make eye contact with any of the Flatleys.
It is customary for Joannie to come around to the main entrance and thank the audience members and they file out. Well sure enough, the last people to file out were the Flatleys, and old Mrs. Flatley, Michael's mom is clutching her chest, weezing while being held up by Michael's brother. Joannie is panicking at this point, thinking she must have given poor Mrs. Flatley a heart attack. Anyhow, the Flately entourage finally makes it up to where Joannie is waiting. As they approach Mrs. Flatley bursts out laughing, and says to Joannie... "You know, that was the funniest thing I've ever seen. Someone should have done that to Michael long ago. Next time he is going to have to come along and see it for himself!". Boy oh boy was Joannie relieved, though she's been on the lookout for Michael at their shows ever since!
Best,
Chris
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by ChrisLaughlin
Re: Riverdance ....?
CJ! You mean, there's such a thing as a fast Scottish country dance!? I never knew! Seriously, I thought they were all slow. The fast traveling step sounds suspiciously like the promenade step (usually called "3s" or "123s). I can't remember what a jeté is, though.
Heeheehee, Chris, that's hysterical! I'm going to have to tell that one around...
So, Harry, *are* you a $#%@&*?
Zina
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by Zina Lee
The power of the word
let this be a lesson to us all of the power of the word when spoken over beer. For months I have walked in secret shame, feeling as if there was a huge green P plastered on my chest for all to see. :D
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by chicagofiddler
Re: Riverdance ....?
Chris, "Bonaparte...." is'nt associated with Donegal as far as I know. There is a small body of polkas from up there, but they are not common Donegal repertoire and are few and fairly obscure.
Zina, I have been known to $*^@&* for a small fee.... but that's a different thing altogether.
Regards, Harry.
http://www.strayceol.com
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by Harry B
Re: Riverdance ....?
Harry, and here's me doing it for free! I can see I've a lot to learn. *grin*
It's better than being a closet tuba player, Sos. Be grateful for small secret shames. Heh.
Zina
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Riverdance ....?
Harry,
Doh! Donegal, Kerry, it's all the same ;)
Best,
Chris
# Posted on September 18th 2002 by ChrisLaughlin
Re: Riverdance ....?
The jete is the straight-legged-pointed-toe kick at the end of the step-step-step - the technical description from the Manual of Scottish Country Dancing is - well, you probably don't want to know.
Zina - how did you get the mark over your last e in jete?
CJ
# Posted on September 19th 2002 by cj
Re: Riverdance ....?
Speaking of things to hate, check out this site:
http://flyingpiper.com/
Quoting the site:
"Available immediately is a series of complete note-for-note transcriptions (exact grace notes, poppings, bowings, notes on fingerings) of traditional Irish music played by the best Irish musicians on available recorded media. Precisely transcribed by a composer, in proper musical notation as standardized during the 20th century. No cranning, rolling, or other ambiguous symbols. Actual rhythms (this does not mean complicated) and actual notes and grace notes are written out exactly as they occur. So you can stop guessing and learn how it's done. So-called "triplets" are notated properly, in the rhythm they are actually played. Stop the confusion! (There are very few actual triplets and fewer to none other tuplets in traditional Irish music, although I see them being habitually notated as such.) "
Need i say any more?
# Posted on September 19th 2002 by glauber
Re: Riverdance ....?
Oh my gosh, Glauber. How...interesting. Of course, I totally find exact transcriptions very interesting to study and to even sometimes learn a setting note for note as a learning exercise, and of course *technically* he's correct, a classical triplet is not the same as an ITM triplet (as ITM doesn't translate very well to classical music notation), but it couldn't really be clearer that this guy doesn't seem to "get" it -- he seems to be advocating that you regularly *play* the notated tunes note for note as someone else did...aaargh.
Hopefully that's not actually the case, but I'm dreadfully afraid it is.
Still, I wouldn't mind seeing a transcription or two -- I'm always very interested in seeing how another (and better) player plays something and study it, break it down and learn from it. I really have liked Manfred's Chiff and Fipple board that does that, for instance.
Zina
# Posted on September 19th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Riverdance ....?
CJ, yes, actually I *would* like to know, just for general knowledge, but probably no one else would.
Anyway, on my character key map, the e with the accent is alt-0233, but check your own character key map on your computer to find where all your special characters are. (In Windows, it's generally your main drive, Windows folder, and the character key map is generally called something like charmap.exe.)
Zina
# Posted on September 19th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Riverdance ....?
Hi glauber ..... oh my god, I really don´t know what to say about that .....
Heaven or hell knows why I bought (mailordered blind) Martin Hayes´ (no no no, please no comments on that in this thread ...) under the moon collection (transcription of the 13 tracks of the same CD). transcription was made by some american musician (some MacWhoknows - really don´t remember) and he tried to show exactly note by note what Hayes played and when you compare it to the cd you might notice, that he missed it more or less by a width of a hair .... well, that is, what i call stupid work to reach nonsense (exept Mel Bay sells the book to some fools like me and he gets some cheques from time to time) - who wants to reach that dubios goal needs these notes AND CAREFUL LISTENING to the cd to play it exactly like Hayes did after some hard practicing .... a roll symbol here a cran sympol there and a few cuts and other grace notes would have done it as well to this point.
To come back to the subject: On Hannover Fair 2001 one of the big fork-lift truck manufacturers (might have been Clark or Linde - really don´t remember) darkened their booth every two hours. some playback intro sound started while a fluteplayer, a guitar player and a female fiddler came out of the fog machine´s hiss and started playing; some fork lift trucks drove in a bunch of dancers on their fork and then they started dancing parts of riverdance ..... it was a selection of about 30 dancers from the riverdance Ersatz cast - the show was about 30 to 45 minutes and was repeated every two hours for seven days. I went three times there to see it again. The dancers were great (the audience could be very close so one got a feeling for their physical work) - but the sound system was so perfect, that I wasn´t able to find out what was played live and what was play back.... it was nice but I forgot about it very soon.
# Posted on September 19th 2002 by crannog
Re: Riverdance ....?
Oh man, wouldn't that have been a great gig? heehee...if only to say you did it once! I don't know why, but that story just gives me the giggles!
# Posted on September 19th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Riverdance ....?
Zina - couldn't get to your member page, so here's the part from the manual specifically on the jete - if you'd like the 2 pages on the pas de basque (sic) I can .pdf them or .gif or something them to you -
"3. To complete the foot positions of the step, the jete is added. On the third beat, as the weight is transferred to the back foot the front foot is extended diagonally from Third position to Fourth Intermediate position, leg straight, toe pointed down, approximately two inches from the floor."
Some day I'll get to the special characters set -
CJ
# Posted on September 19th 2002 by cj
Re: Riverdance ....?
Grego et al,
Tune no. 94 in Brathnach's Ceol Rince na hE/ireann goes under the alternate titles-' Jenny Lind 'or 'Jenny Lind's favorite'. Interestingly it does sounds similar in tone to European popular pieces of Linds times. It was collected from Thomas McGuire, I would love to hear how he interpreted it- the notation gives little away in that respect.
I might try to look for it in the audio section of the Traditional Music Archive in Dublin.
All the best, Harry.
# Posted on September 19th 2002 by Harry B
Re: Riverdance ....?
OOOoooops,
That's volume 5 of 'Ceol Rince'.
Best, Harry.
http://www.strayceol.com
# Posted on September 19th 2002 by Harry B
Re: Riverdance ....?
Thanks, CJ -- 'preciate it!
Zina
# Posted on September 19th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Riverdance ....?
Just had a look at that "flyingpiper" website Glauber quoted way back on 19 September 2002. All it says now is "Go Away! Go Away!"
Trevor
# Posted on April 26th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: Riverdance ....?
Picked up the album the other day to see what all the fuss was about, I suppose you had to see the show and dancers to be wowed. Found the music to be agreeable background noise while I was playing on the computer, but I couldn't pick out any detectable, much less memorable tune (the lament, though exquisitely performed and recorded, was a bit like other tunes of its kind that I'd heard, only less so, if that makes any sense). The variations on the rhythms (I don't mean the evidently exotic numbers) were intriguing, but they seemed to remind me of things English concertina player Alistair Anderson was trying out in extended suites he was writing back in the '80's (which did feature strong original tunes, incidentally) - at any rate I felt I'd heard something like it before. Anyway, I was amused by the story in one of the above entries about the dry ice going wrong and turning the stage into an ice rink...
# Posted on August 5th 2006 by nicholas