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Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
Does it damage the fiddle to do this for a prolonged period of time? Do you have to change strings more often? Do you lose your overtones? Dire effects in general?
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
Probably not...but I don't like to crank up any higher than A440. That's the pitch your strings are designed for, and the fiddle will sound best at that pitch.
If you are playing on an old violin, the sudden increase in string tension beyond what it is accustomed to may cause problems, but for a short time, you may be okay. This time of year, with the heat on, the humidity will be way below the 40% recommended for pianos and stringed instruments, and we must be careful not to increase string tension any more than necessary.
To all of us who value our instruments- get a hygrometer and see exactly what the humidity is in your home. Aim for 40% to avoid cracks. But, to quote Ringo, "it don't come easy".
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
Also remember that if you are playing an older instrument then it may have been designed for A equaling 435 or lower and tuning it up to 440 could be harder on the instrument.
Greg - you remind me of the piano tuner that used to drive two and a half hours to tune our piano. He was the one tuning a piano in a penthouse apartment that was kept in a glass room on the roof and the dear guy wouldn't keep the a/c on in the room (and this was in Houston, TX). Our tuner ripped into him and told him if he could afford the place and the piano (a restored Steinway) than he could afford to keep the a/c on and take better care of where the instrument was. Needless to say the guy listened.
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
My fiddle is only about 25 years old, musicfan. I love the tone and the overtones and I don't want to cause damage, but whistle players, for instance, have a hard time bringing their pitch down if the instrument is a bit sharp, and I'm going to be playing with a whistler whose favorite instrument is sharp to A440.
It's winter here and the forced air heating indoors is very drying to the stringed instruments. Think it's time for a hygrometer. Thanks for the info on percentages, Greg.
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
I've heard a coupl'a albums with people tuning thiere fiddles way up. A whole step and a half sometimes. It scares me to try that ( and the fiddle doesn't sound so good ) but I guess they were trying to match the B tuned flutes or Pipes...
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
Farr: To match pipes at C or B or B-flat, one tunes the fiddle down, not up.
There are some recordings, though, where the fiddle is tuned up a half step, to match e-flat instruments, most commonly whistles and flutes. I've never heard of an e-flat pipe, but there may be such a thing. And, of course, sometimes a piper on a D-set might inadvertently be almost that sharp.
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
Musicfan, did you mean A415? A435 is well within the range of pitches from various instruments that I hear in sessions
If you have an old fiddle that was intended to be played at A415 (a baroque pitch about half a tone below A440) and it is still being played regularly then it is more than likely that over the last couple of centuries it would have been modified to cope with modern requirements; things like a re-angled neck, longer fingerboard, higher bridge, modern high-tension strings, and internal modifications involving the bass bar and sound post. These modern modifications alter the tone of the instrument quite markedly from that which you would hear from a real baroque set-up - something you'll only find nowadays in the specialist baroque and early music ensembles.
In my chamber orchestra the leader plays a 1700 Italian fiddle, another player uses a 1685 fiddle, there are 3 cellos predating 1700, and there's quite a clutch of instruments well in the 18th century; (my cello, at 1850, is one of the youngest). So, for everyday purposes you're not likely to have any problems playing at A440, providing the instrument, being old, is regularly maintained by a good luthier.
If you need to uptune an old fiddle for a short period of time (basically a one-off) I'd suggest you use lighter gauge strings to minimise the increase in string tension and consequent loading on the instrument. If you're looking at a long-term conversion then a modern instrument might be more suitable. Anyway, discuss it with a luthier as to choice of strings and general set-up - the height of the bridge may need to lowered to make it easier to play on strings at a higher tension.
The aforesaid leader of my chamber orchestra was leading a symphony orchestra a while ago in one of the Mahler symphonies, where it is required in one of the movements that the leader plays a fiddle tuned a half-tone higher (or perhaps a whole-tone, I can't remember). Bob said there was no way he was going to retune one of his old fiddles for this so he borrowed a school fiddle from a school where his wife teaches and strung it up with steel strings to the required pitch. He had it propped against the music stand during the performance and picked it up when needed.
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
Yeah, I was tired when I was on last night, none of my posts made much sense. And 435 drives me nuts when I'm tuned 440, actually I've been driven nuts by 439 to my 440 cause it just doesn't quite blend.
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
It is possible to crank the strings up to meet a piper, but I wouldn't do this to an old instrument. The A on my GHB pipes is somewhere near 460, and I'd NEVER tune my old fiddle that high; it would be unstable for days.
Trevor Jennings has the idea; if you expect to tune up to a piper, use an old scratcher, not your good fiddle.
By the way, I never thought 435 and 440 were that far apart until I bought a 435 fork for older pianos. It's a fun demo; hit the 440 fork and hold it to one ear; hit the 435 fork and hold it to the other; and feel your teeth rattle!
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
Tirvaluk,
Maybe we're both right. We're thinking of different kinds of pipes. I was talking about flat sets of uilleann pipes. To match them and be playing in the right range for Irish tunes, one tunes the D string down to the bottom note of the chanter (usually C, B, or B-flat), and the other strings in their usual relation to that.
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
My actual question was regarding tuning up a half step or so to a d whistle that plays sharp, not pipes, and what that might do to my fiddle long term. I use dominant strings with a goldbrokat e, by the way, and my fiddle is a modern Italian style with a big sound.
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
I'd still say take it to a luthier and have them advise you on the set up. Are you going to be leaving it tuned up all the time or are you just tuning up for every now and then?
I cross tune every now and then but I've found that the fiddle doesn't like to hold the tuning when I've tuned up. I'm constantly having to adjust the tuning. If you are going to tune up every now and then just be prepared to constant re-tuning while your strings stretch.
If you are going to tune up permanently then I'd definitely advise speaking with a luthier.
Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
Does it damage the fiddle to do this for a prolonged period of time? Do you have to change strings more often? Do you lose your overtones? Dire effects in general?
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by thier1754
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
Probably not...but I don't like to crank up any higher than A440. That's the pitch your strings are designed for, and the fiddle will sound best at that pitch.
If you are playing on an old violin, the sudden increase in string tension beyond what it is accustomed to may cause problems, but for a short time, you may be okay. This time of year, with the heat on, the humidity will be way below the 40% recommended for pianos and stringed instruments, and we must be careful not to increase string tension any more than necessary.
To all of us who value our instruments- get a hygrometer and see exactly what the humidity is in your home. Aim for 40% to avoid cracks. But, to quote Ringo, "it don't come easy".
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
Also remember that if you are playing an older instrument then it may have been designed for A equaling 435 or lower and tuning it up to 440 could be harder on the instrument.
Greg - you remind me of the piano tuner that used to drive two and a half hours to tune our piano. He was the one tuning a piano in a penthouse apartment that was kept in a glass room on the roof and the dear guy wouldn't keep the a/c on in the room (and this was in Houston, TX). Our tuner ripped into him and told him if he could afford the place and the piano (a restored Steinway) than he could afford to keep the a/c on and take better care of where the instrument was. Needless to say the guy listened.
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by musicfan
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
My fiddle is only about 25 years old, musicfan. I love the tone and the overtones and I don't want to cause damage, but whistle players, for instance, have a hard time bringing their pitch down if the instrument is a bit sharp, and I'm going to be playing with a whistler whose favorite instrument is sharp to A440.
It's winter here and the forced air heating indoors is very drying to the stringed instruments. Think it's time for a hygrometer. Thanks for the info on percentages, Greg.
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by thier1754
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
I've heard a coupl'a albums with people tuning thiere fiddles way up. A whole step and a half sometimes. It scares me to try that ( and the fiddle doesn't sound so good ) but I guess they were trying to match the B tuned flutes or Pipes...
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by Farr
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
Tell your piper to tune down to A440. We can do it now with available accessories.
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by gmacg
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
Farr: To match pipes at C or B or B-flat, one tunes the fiddle down, not up.
There are some recordings, though, where the fiddle is tuned up a half step, to match e-flat instruments, most commonly whistles and flutes. I've never heard of an e-flat pipe, but there may be such a thing. And, of course, sometimes a piper on a D-set might inadvertently be almost that sharp.
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by bogeyman
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
Musicfan, did you mean A415? A435 is well within the range of pitches from various instruments that I hear in sessions
If you have an old fiddle that was intended to be played at A415 (a baroque pitch about half a tone below A440) and it is still being played regularly then it is more than likely that over the last couple of centuries it would have been modified to cope with modern requirements; things like a re-angled neck, longer fingerboard, higher bridge, modern high-tension strings, and internal modifications involving the bass bar and sound post. These modern modifications alter the tone of the instrument quite markedly from that which you would hear from a real baroque set-up - something you'll only find nowadays in the specialist baroque and early music ensembles.
In my chamber orchestra the leader plays a 1700 Italian fiddle, another player uses a 1685 fiddle, there are 3 cellos predating 1700, and there's quite a clutch of instruments well in the 18th century; (my cello, at 1850, is one of the youngest). So, for everyday purposes you're not likely to have any problems playing at A440, providing the instrument, being old, is regularly maintained by a good luthier.
If you need to uptune an old fiddle for a short period of time (basically a one-off) I'd suggest you use lighter gauge strings to minimise the increase in string tension and consequent loading on the instrument. If you're looking at a long-term conversion then a modern instrument might be more suitable. Anyway, discuss it with a luthier as to choice of strings and general set-up - the height of the bridge may need to lowered to make it easier to play on strings at a higher tension.
The aforesaid leader of my chamber orchestra was leading a symphony orchestra a while ago in one of the Mahler symphonies, where it is required in one of the movements that the leader plays a fiddle tuned a half-tone higher (or perhaps a whole-tone, I can't remember). Bob said there was no way he was going to retune one of his old fiddles for this so he borrowed a school fiddle from a school where his wife teaches and strung it up with steel strings to the required pitch. He had it propped against the music stand during the performance and picked it up when needed.
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
Yeah, I was tired when I was on last night, none of my posts made much sense. And 435 drives me nuts when I'm tuned 440, actually I've been driven nuts by 439 to my 440 cause it just doesn't quite blend.
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by musicfan
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
I think Bogetman is wrong, you tune the A string up to B flat, to play with pipes.
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by tirvaluk
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
It is possible to crank the strings up to meet a piper, but I wouldn't do this to an old instrument. The A on my GHB pipes is somewhere near 460, and I'd NEVER tune my old fiddle that high; it would be unstable for days.
Trevor Jennings has the idea; if you expect to tune up to a piper, use an old scratcher, not your good fiddle.
By the way, I never thought 435 and 440 were that far apart until I bought a 435 fork for older pianos. It's a fun demo; hit the 440 fork and hold it to one ear; hit the 435 fork and hold it to the other; and feel your teeth rattle!
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
Tirvaluk,
Maybe we're both right. We're thinking of different kinds of pipes. I was talking about flat sets of uilleann pipes. To match them and be playing in the right range for Irish tunes, one tunes the D string down to the bottom note of the chanter (usually C, B, or B-flat), and the other strings in their usual relation to that.
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by bogeyman
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
My actual question was regarding tuning up a half step or so to a d whistle that plays sharp, not pipes, and what that might do to my fiddle long term. I use dominant strings with a goldbrokat e, by the way, and my fiddle is a modern Italian style with a big sound.
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by thier1754
Re: Tuning a fiddle 1/4 - 1/2 above pitch to play with fixed pitch people
I'd still say take it to a luthier and have them advise you on the set up. Are you going to be leaving it tuned up all the time or are you just tuning up for every now and then?
I cross tune every now and then but I've found that the fiddle doesn't like to hold the tuning when I've tuned up. I'm constantly having to adjust the tuning. If you are going to tune up every now and then just be prepared to constant re-tuning while your strings stretch.
If you are going to tune up permanently then I'd definitely advise speaking with a luthier.
# Posted on January 23rd 2006 by musicfan