I'm 27 years old, have been playing folk gutar for 12 of those, and irish trad for 7. I can't speak for others, but i've got sick of sitting in sessions with multiple guitars/bouzoukis etc. all intent on backing tunes ALL AT THE SAME TIME! I eventually came to the conclusion that if any other instrument was backing wihout listening, my only option was to play melody.
Trouble is, regardless of the position/pitch i play the tune in, or the hours i've put in perfecting rolls, cranns etc., most people tend to ignore it, and launch into a different tune over the top. Yeah, ok, its not the ideal melody insrument in terms of volume, but given effort it works. Has anyone else encountered this? Any tips for overcoming this apparent prejudice?
At our session today, there were 6 strummers: 3 banjos, 1 mandolin, and two guitars. When one of the banjo players saw the other two, he switched to mandolin, then later switched to his guitar. Finally, one of the banjo players got up and walked around the store(our sesssion is in a busy bookstore) for the better part of the session, and left the others to fend for themselves. There was a poor guy who walked in thinking he was going to join the music, set his guitar case down and never picked it back up except when he left.
It's obvious that strummers are frustrated. The only time you can hear a banjo is when they start a tune; once the tune heats up, forget it, they are lost in the din. The guitars can be sawed a little heavier and stand out a bit more, but really the same thing happens when the tunes stretch out.
As it happens, I'm just a box player, only too easy to overpower a session. I don't have an answer, but I do sympathize with you. I enjoy hearing strummed instruments, even if some people think they are not real trad.
Maybe the session leader could be approached about allowing selected individuals solos every now and then, to sort of showcase the pickers talents?
ben the problem might not be that people are ignoring you but that they can't make out the tune and take it for noodling. This has happened to me before and I am a Flute player. One option to look at is taking up a differente instrument for playing melody on and since you alreadly play Guitar you should probably consider Tenor Banjo, you will never have a quiet problem ever again and even though tuning is different I think that the technique should be pretty similar as I play a little Banjo and even flatpick some Guitar tunes now and again (but only at home in public I play Flute or Whsitle). If you don't like the idea of Banjo maybe Mandolin or Octave Mandolin would be a good option. Of course if you want to stick to Guitar tuning there are always those instruments tuned the same as a guitar but built to be a Banjo or Mandolin. I would assume that 12 string would have more volume also another thing to consider.
Maybe get a small group together outside the session environment and use an amp to bring you up to volume. I love the mix of a well fingerpicked guitar alternating between melody and harmony - or combining the melody line w/chording. The guitar is much more versatile than the banjo or mando (which I play).
The problem with more than one instument doing accompaniment is that it *really* restricts what the accompaniment can be. All of the guitar (or whatever) have to be playing the same thing. If you've been playing backup for very long you probably realize that there is no one particular way to do that with Celtic music. Rythm and chord changes can vary greatly from player to player for any given tune. I play octave mandolin myself, mostly melody. When I do work out an accompaniment, I pride myself on doing something more creative than simple strums using chords out of a chord book. But it won't work with a second accompanist unless they are both playing either the same thing or complimentary parts.
At our sessions, its just a given that unless the players have previously worked out their parts together, only one backup instrument is used at a time. I will either switch to melody or sit a tune out before I will risk imposing two conflicting accompaniments on a tune. If six strummers showed up, after I finished shuddering I think I'd suggest they start working on melody or go find a bluegrass session somewhere.
I don't like the way the banjo cuts through in a session, it's kinda crude. And kind of unfair for those playing Guitar(as a melody instrument) which usually can't be heard playing the melody.
And same story when a Guitar is booming away in a session without listening to anyone else and i'm trying to play some nice stuff on the zouk, i'm obviously drowned out( I don't want to compete so just don't attempt to ) and like Ben I just stop and switch to melody then the banjo(s) drown me out. I can't imagine what it must be like for mando players unless they've got a loud mando. I think it depends on the playing style also.
I have ocassionaly found a guitarist that was actually listening round and we were working together on the accompainment, I like doing that.
There's me complaining about volume...
I wouldn't say the Guitar isn't suited to a session enviroment playing the melody, i think it's got a much nicer tone than say the banjo. Like Avery said a 12 string guitar would produce more volume. Although I have to admit i've never seen someone flatpicking the guitar in a session. But with a 12 stringer I don't think there would be that much of a prob.
And Michael has a point, like you can't excpect the whole session the back off for you to be heard. Would be nice once in a while though.
i sometime sit in at a sesh on the guitar and my friend plays DADGAD backing so to add clarity instead of 6 string durge I pick out the tune instead for me it keeps the music interesting. I know quite a bulk of tunes I normally play on the banjo, on other occasions I have retuned the guitar and capo'd it to give me GDAE in the middle 4 strings and used a good heavy pick for volume as guitars like mandola's lack this in places
Hard luck.
Guitar can sound lovely when played flat pick style...I love it and feel its a valid instrument in Irish music.
Unfortunately you wont be heard.
If you are interested in the flat picking/ chord playing maybe you should mess with other instruments...or try smaller sessions...
I dunno where you are based, but if you have the option - find a better sessio!
Just what is it with guitars anyway? I'm genuinely trying not to be facetious here, but I just don't get it. It seems to me that something like 80% of all the instruments bought in the western world are guitars of some form or another. And I would say that probably 99.9% of musical gatherings (from bedroom duos through pub sessions, pop band and full scale orchestras include a guitar or ten. OK so it's one one those instruments, like the piano, that you can instantly get a decent sound out of, but surely that's not enough. And is it really that versatile? Guitar players big up the versatility, but then only complain when it's not versatile enough.
Come on all you strummers, flat pickers, finger pickers, bashers and thrashers. WHY the guitar? Especially in Irish diddley session music where it is clearly both not suited and over represented.
3. Yes, it's reasonably easy to get a nice sound straight away.
I played guitar for five years, then switched to mando for three when my interest in ITM was developing (as much for portability as anything), but when I couldn't hear myself in a session, tried whistle, before returning to the hated instrument of my youth, the fiddle, and finding it was fun after all.
Never had any trouble making myself either heard or not heard on the fiddle - a lot easier for "finding" a tune someone else is playing than the whistle was.
Michael, guitar IS a rather versatile instrument. True enough, initial easiness is a factor - fiddle, being equally versatile, is much less popular.
Still, don't you think that if 99..9% of all musical gatherings, including professional ones have a guitar, there must be something behind it? And try telling me that Tony Rice or Tony McManus play this instrument because it's so easy to get a decent sound out of it.
And, true enough, guitar is not the best pick when it comes to European traditional music, excluding the Mediterranean. But is it my fault that I like playing guitar AND I like diddley? To make you feel better, I don't play Polish traditional music on a guitar - it would sound even more preposterous.
Why the guitar? The answer is simple. 'Cos I like to play it.
"don't you think that if 99..9% of all musical gatherings, including professional ones have a guitar, there must be something behind it?"
I suspect the "something behind it" is probably Top of the Pops. Pop music, with its 'in-your-face' exposure in mass media, defines guitar as "the national instrument" in the same way that televised sport has defined football as "the national sport" without consulting the people who like hockey/rugby/curling/elephant-polo etc.
I think the likes of the beatles and Hendrix and co made the guitar popular didnt it?
"Its not suited..." That depends what type of session you play!
Where I play, 90% of the time a backer is required to play by the melody players....
"Over Represented" - I agree.
I like playing the guitar lately - I never did before.
My session usually consists of fiddle flute pipes and me,
so I dont have to bash etc, and if I flat pick and the pipes doesnt play you can hear fine.
Didnt you used be a strummer Michael?
A thrasher you said once.....
Would I be right in suggesting this...
I think you have your elitist and biased opinion, because I bet you look back thinking of how much you would have screwed up most decent sessions without knowing about it thinking you were a great fella strumming along going mad.....so when you knock backers, are you knocking what kind of backer you were yourself?????Are you tarring all of us with the same brush?
Over time im sure you have fallen in love with your fiddle and its role in diddly and when you listen to the music now you listen alot to the sound of the fiddle exclusively and dont consider the strummings....thats fair enough, just dont get on the high horse you dont deserve to be on.
I feel guitar is genuinely important in the scene, and when playing melody, love playing with or without a good backer.
Hey stefan, your dam right I'm looking back to my dreadful thrasher youth. With fond and greatful rememberance of those patient saints who guided me to the true light.
It's maybe because of this that I constantly consider the strumming.
I enjoy listening to a good guitarist at a session. There's a guitarist that shows up once in a while at the sessions I go to who I once had the privilege to sit next to. He would sit there and switch back and forth between strumming/backing and picking the melodies. He was all over up and down the neck with his chords, playing inversions and substitutions, especially when there was another guitarist strumming the root chords at the bottom of the neck. I really enjoy what he brings to a session.
He would switch to mandolin on occassion, which he was also very good at.
I knew that, cause for a long time I was exactly the same...
Now though I really love guitar...I got the Jesse Smith Album on Friday - Its really nice.
He's some fiddler.....with lovely backing.
Id recommend it.
". . .true enough, guitar is not the best pick when it comes to European traditional music. . ."
The guitar was invented for European traditional music.
"I think the likes of the beatles and Hendrix and co made the guitar popular didnt it?
No, the Beatles didn't have anything to do with its popularity. By the time they came along they chose to play guitars because that's what they heard on the radio and saw everyone else playing. In the 50s Elvis had to pretend to play a guitar just to be taken seriously, because it was already expected. Every kid in the 30s who ever watched a Roy Rogers movie wanted to play guitar. In the 20s the guitar family ukulele was all the rage, developed in Hawaii from a European traditional instrument.
Lyons & Healy began making guitars before the turn of the last century. They are the modern folk harp, only far more versatile.
Might just as well go back 500 years and ask all the Irish musicians, "Why harp?"
God save us from mono-instrumentalists pontificating on what they know not.
I play rhythm guitar at sessions and in a large gathering some king of rhythmic glue is very important. I see my job as primarily helping to keep the session together. More than one guitar doing this job causes problems, so when someone comes just with a guitar I let them do the job and I stick to melody on Whistle, Recorder and my E-Pipes.
Why did I learn to play the guitar? James Taylor on the radio when I was a kid. And when I started listening to ITM, and worked up the courage to join in, the guitar came to the session with me. Many people who like music pick up a guitar at some time in their life, and many discover it before they discover ITM, and so it is natural that it shows up so frequently.
Plus, the ability to bash away with at least three chords during a tune is not too difficult to develop, almost as simple as thumping away on a bodhran with a rudimentary beat (sorry drummers). So we are always going to see more guitars than are needed at sessions, and many of them will not play in a way that quite fits in. The challenge is to get these people pointed in the right direction--finding them singing sessions if they are the singing and guitar playing types, encouraging them take up a stringed melody instrument, teaching them to take turns, or helping them develop the abiltity to more than bash away.
Fortunately, at my favorite session, I am almost always the only guitarist, and the bouzouki player who shows up is great at working along with me, and we try to be sensitive to what each other is doing. And I do play melody on other instruments, so people get a break from the guitar once in a while. Another trick is to finger pick once in a while, it won't be heard well, but sometimes it is nice to participate quietly.
One problem with this music is that everyone wants to be heard above the throng--and since the music is about unison, this is hard to do, and so everyone plays lounder, which becomes a problem in itself. There is nothing wrong with being a quiet but vital part of the overall sound of it all.
When I first started going to the local sessions it was me and Jim, both doubling guitar and bodrhan, at the rhythmn end of things. I was also taking along my old Greek 'zouk, which really wasn't cutting the mustard. It was soon obvious that both Jim and me on the same instrument was going to cause confusion, so if he played one I would play the other, without any prior arrangement.
Jim has now moved too far away to participate, and I have switched over to a better 'zouk anyway, so the space is there for a guitar, usually little Neill, who can pick tunes as well as strum, and blows a good whistle too.
There, I suggest, is your answer - be versatile, don't stick to one instrument, use your picking skills on another fretted instrument or diversify. But I hold the opinion one strummed guitar per session is enough, and value those who know when to hold back their contributions. And, no, your picking will not be too audible to you in a large gathering. Strangely enough, it may well come through more clearly at the other end of the bar. Acoustics are funny things.
I think one of the reasons fiddles and flutes work well in pub sessions. (I'm not talking work better in general traditional Irish music, I've already done that one http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/6109/ )
... is that the things are right next to your head. OK so when there's an amount of background noise etc, it's great to have what you are doing right next to your head. It's much harder when you have a thing which is just as loud, but all the sound is projected away from your stomach.
Well I have to say if you want LOUD get a Foley (foleyguitars.com), they are monsters!
Personally I don't use guitar just for backing, but when I back it's a fingerpicked combination of chords and partial melody, meant to compliment the music. Some don't like my style, but mostly people seem to like it, or at least say so. Otherwise, I woulda' taken the hint and disappeared long ago.
Guitars can really conflict though if one is playing regular chords and another hitting those jazzy ones, or if both stress a different beat. I like to play mostly with the music, not on the off beat, I really am not fond of that for this music. Just a matter of taste.
I fingerpick quite a few tunes, but they don't really work at a session so I don't do them unless asked to solo or duet with someone.
Iris said:
" I like to play mostly with the music, not on the off beat, I really am not fond of that for this music. Just a matter of taste."
Iris I tend to agree with your taste.
A question for you though, is what do you do if the melody goes off-beat/syncopated or whatever you want to call it. Do you keep the straight beat against the flow of the melody or do you go offbeat to stay with the melody?
I like the idea of fingerpicked chords/melody accompaniment when it can be heard by you not to mention the others - I think it works very well when accompanying a soloist especially in a concert situation. I suppose at times this allows you to try to emulate a harp accompaniment.
To answer specifically the thread:
Guitars are not just for backing, we can play melody flatpicked tunes or full fingerstyle arrangements as well. It's like having three instruments in one case
Easy answer to your question Donough - if the tune goes all syncopated it means it's one of them crappy modern tunes so you can safely put your guitar down and go to the bar or chat with a friend.
Really Dow, welI didn't ask you as I knew your answer anyways!
Anyway some our sessions get syncopated for a completely different reason and that is, that people are just out of time with each other. That's when I put the guitar down - for fear that I get the blame for the cacophany.
Guitars- just for backing?
Guitars- just for backing?
I'm 27 years old, have been playing folk gutar for 12 of those, and irish trad for 7. I can't speak for others, but i've got sick of sitting in sessions with multiple guitars/bouzoukis etc. all intent on backing tunes ALL AT THE SAME TIME! I eventually came to the conclusion that if any other instrument was backing wihout listening, my only option was to play melody.
Trouble is, regardless of the position/pitch i play the tune in, or the hours i've put in perfecting rolls, cranns etc., most people tend to ignore it, and launch into a different tune over the top. Yeah, ok, its not the ideal melody insrument in terms of volume, but given effort it works. Has anyone else encountered this? Any tips for overcoming this apparent prejudice?
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Ben Williams
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
This is an observation.
At our session today, there were 6 strummers: 3 banjos, 1 mandolin, and two guitars. When one of the banjo players saw the other two, he switched to mandolin, then later switched to his guitar. Finally, one of the banjo players got up and walked around the store(our sesssion is in a busy bookstore) for the better part of the session, and left the others to fend for themselves. There was a poor guy who walked in thinking he was going to join the music, set his guitar case down and never picked it back up except when he left.
It's obvious that strummers are frustrated. The only time you can hear a banjo is when they start a tune; once the tune heats up, forget it, they are lost in the din. The guitars can be sawed a little heavier and stand out a bit more, but really the same thing happens when the tunes stretch out.
As it happens, I'm just a box player, only too easy to overpower a session. I don't have an answer, but I do sympathize with you. I enjoy hearing strummed instruments, even if some people think they are not real trad.
Maybe the session leader could be approached about allowing selected individuals solos every now and then, to sort of showcase the pickers talents?
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by rogfox
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
By the way, we also had 6 fiddles, 2 boxes, 1 bodhran and 1 set of bongos!!!!!!
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by rogfox
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
ben the problem might not be that people are ignoring you but that they can't make out the tune and take it for noodling. This has happened to me before and I am a Flute player. One option to look at is taking up a differente instrument for playing melody on and since you alreadly play Guitar you should probably consider Tenor Banjo, you will never have a quiet problem ever again and even though tuning is different I think that the technique should be pretty similar as I play a little Banjo and even flatpick some Guitar tunes now and again (but only at home in public I play Flute or Whsitle). If you don't like the idea of Banjo maybe Mandolin or Octave Mandolin would be a good option. Of course if you want to stick to Guitar tuning there are always those instruments tuned the same as a guitar but built to be a Banjo or Mandolin. I would assume that 12 string would have more volume also another thing to consider.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Why Bother?
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
Maybe get a small group together outside the session environment and use an amp to bring you up to volume. I love the mix of a well fingerpicked guitar alternating between melody and harmony - or combining the melody line w/chording. The guitar is much more versatile than the banjo or mando (which I play).
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Moylan
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
The problem with more than one instument doing accompaniment is that it *really* restricts what the accompaniment can be. All of the guitar (or whatever) have to be playing the same thing. If you've been playing backup for very long you probably realize that there is no one particular way to do that with Celtic music. Rythm and chord changes can vary greatly from player to player for any given tune. I play octave mandolin myself, mostly melody. When I do work out an accompaniment, I pride myself on doing something more creative than simple strums using chords out of a chord book. But it won't work with a second accompanist unless they are both playing either the same thing or complimentary parts.
At our sessions, its just a given that unless the players have previously worked out their parts together, only one backup instrument is used at a time. I will either switch to melody or sit a tune out before I will risk imposing two conflicting accompaniments on a tune. If six strummers showed up, after I finished shuddering I think I'd suggest they start working on melody or go find a bluegrass session somewhere.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Craymcla
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
"Of course if you want to stick to Guitar tuning there are always those instruments tuned the same as a guitar but built to be a Banjo or Mandolin."
Like a tenor banjo or mandolin in guitar tuning. They're same instruments, just with the little knob thingies twisted differently.
KFG
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by KFG
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
Q: I play the recorder in a 27 piece brass band. You know, trumpets, trombones, cornets, suzaphones etc. And I just can't seem to get myself heard.
A: I'm sorry, but your chosen instrument, wonderful though it may be, is just not suited to that environment. Sorry.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by ...
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
I don't like the way the banjo cuts through in a session, it's kinda crude. And kind of unfair for those playing Guitar(as a melody instrument) which usually can't be heard playing the melody.
And same story when a Guitar is booming away in a session without listening to anyone else and i'm trying to play some nice stuff on the zouk, i'm obviously drowned out( I don't want to compete so just don't attempt to ) and like Ben I just stop and switch to melody then the banjo(s) drown me out. I can't imagine what it must be like for mando players unless they've got a loud mando. I think it depends on the playing style also.
I have ocassionaly found a guitarist that was actually listening round and we were working together on the accompainment, I like doing that.
Phil
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by ecidralla
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
There's me complaining about volume...
I wouldn't say the Guitar isn't suited to a session enviroment playing the melody, i think it's got a much nicer tone than say the banjo. Like Avery said a 12 string guitar would produce more volume. Although I have to admit i've never seen someone flatpicking the guitar in a session. But with a 12 stringer I don't think there would be that much of a prob.
And Michael has a point, like you can't excpect the whole session the back off for you to be heard. Would be nice once in a while though.
Phil
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by ecidralla
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
i sometime sit in at a sesh on the guitar and my friend plays DADGAD backing so to add clarity instead of 6 string durge I pick out the tune instead for me it keeps the music interesting. I know quite a bulk of tunes I normally play on the banjo, on other occasions I have retuned the guitar and capo'd it to give me GDAE in the middle 4 strings and used a good heavy pick for volume as guitars like mandola's lack this in places
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Ripthecalico
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
Hard luck.
Guitar can sound lovely when played flat pick style...I love it and feel its a valid instrument in Irish music.
Unfortunately you wont be heard.
If you are interested in the flat picking/ chord playing maybe you should mess with other instruments...or try smaller sessions...
I dunno where you are based, but if you have the option - find a better sessio!
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
Just what is it with guitars anyway? I'm genuinely trying not to be facetious here, but I just don't get it. It seems to me that something like 80% of all the instruments bought in the western world are guitars of some form or another. And I would say that probably 99.9% of musical gatherings (from bedroom duos through pub sessions, pop band and full scale orchestras include a guitar or ten. OK so it's one one those instruments, like the piano, that you can instantly get a decent sound out of, but surely that's not enough. And is it really that versatile? Guitar players big up the versatility, but then only complain when it's not versatile enough.
Come on all you strummers, flat pickers, finger pickers, bashers and thrashers. WHY the guitar? Especially in Irish diddley session music where it is clearly both not suited and over represented.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by ...
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
Why the guitar?
1. Chicks dig guitarists.
2. You can play and sing at the same time.
3. Yes, it's reasonably easy to get a nice sound straight away.
I played guitar for five years, then switched to mando for three when my interest in ITM was developing (as much for portability as anything), but when I couldn't hear myself in a session, tried whistle, before returning to the hated instrument of my youth, the fiddle, and finding it was fun after all.
Never had any trouble making myself either heard or not heard on the fiddle - a lot easier for "finding" a tune someone else is playing than the whistle was.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Martin Milner
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
Michael, guitar IS a rather versatile instrument. True enough, initial easiness is a factor - fiddle, being equally versatile, is much less popular.
Still, don't you think that if 99..9% of all musical gatherings, including professional ones have a guitar, there must be something behind it? And try telling me that Tony Rice or Tony McManus play this instrument because it's so easy to get a decent sound out of it.
And, true enough, guitar is not the best pick when it comes to European traditional music, excluding the Mediterranean. But is it my fault that I like playing guitar AND I like diddley? To make you feel better, I don't play Polish traditional music on a guitar - it would sound even more preposterous.
Why the guitar? The answer is simple. 'Cos I like to play it.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Janek
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
I do switch to uilleann pipes from time to time, but only for bossa nova.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Janek
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
Just because you CAN play 'Dueling Banjos' on a tuba doesn't mean you should.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Zazzaliss
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
Now that was nasty and elitist.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Janek
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
Or just plain funny - coming from a guitarist
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Just a person
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
There is always exceptional people who do exceptional things with mundane instruments. But when I've had tunes with Tony, he plays the fiddle
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by ...
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
"don't you think that if 99..9% of all musical gatherings, including professional ones have a guitar, there must be something behind it?"
I suspect the "something behind it" is probably Top of the Pops. Pop music, with its 'in-your-face' exposure in mass media, defines guitar as "the national instrument" in the same way that televised sport has defined football as "the national sport" without consulting the people who like hockey/rugby/curling/elephant-polo etc.
I'm not against guitars per se.
Ziggy played guitar.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
I think the likes of the beatles and Hendrix and co made the guitar popular didnt it?
"Its not suited..." That depends what type of session you play!
Where I play, 90% of the time a backer is required to play by the melody players....
"Over Represented" - I agree.
I like playing the guitar lately - I never did before.
My session usually consists of fiddle flute pipes and me,
so I dont have to bash etc, and if I flat pick and the pipes doesnt play you can hear fine.
Didnt you used be a strummer Michael?
A thrasher you said once.....
Would I be right in suggesting this...
I think you have your elitist and biased opinion, because I bet you look back thinking of how much you would have screwed up most decent sessions without knowing about it thinking you were a great fella strumming along going mad.....so when you knock backers, are you knocking what kind of backer you were yourself?????Are you tarring all of us with the same brush?
Over time im sure you have fallen in love with your fiddle and its role in diddly and when you listen to the music now you listen alot to the sound of the fiddle exclusively and dont consider the strummings....thats fair enough, just dont get on the high horse you dont deserve to be on.
I feel guitar is genuinely important in the scene, and when playing melody, love playing with or without a good backer.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
Because pianos and violins are for poof's
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Ripthecalico
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
Hey stefan, your dam right I'm looking back to my dreadful thrasher youth. With fond and greatful rememberance of those patient saints who guided me to the true light.
It's maybe because of this that I constantly consider the strumming.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by ...
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
I know that remark was probably made in jest, Mac. However, with the improper use of the apostrophe, the joke is now on you.
I'm not picking on you, though. It's just a softer target than MG's spelling.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Johnny Jay
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
I enjoy listening to a good guitarist at a session. There's a guitarist that shows up once in a while at the sessions I go to who I once had the privilege to sit next to. He would sit there and switch back and forth between strumming/backing and picking the melodies. He was all over up and down the neck with his chords, playing inversions and substitutions, especially when there was another guitarist strumming the root chords at the bottom of the neck. I really enjoy what he brings to a session.
He would switch to mandolin on occassion, which he was also very good at.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by pbassnote
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
I knew that, cause for a long time I was exactly the same...
Now though I really love guitar...I got the Jesse Smith Album on Friday - Its really nice.
He's some fiddler.....with lovely backing.
Id recommend it.
Jesse Smith & John Blake - "Jigs & Reels"
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
". . .true enough, guitar is not the best pick when it comes to European traditional music. . ."
The guitar was invented for European traditional music.
"I think the likes of the beatles and Hendrix and co made the guitar popular didnt it?
No, the Beatles didn't have anything to do with its popularity. By the time they came along they chose to play guitars because that's what they heard on the radio and saw everyone else playing. In the 50s Elvis had to pretend to play a guitar just to be taken seriously, because it was already expected. Every kid in the 30s who ever watched a Roy Rogers movie wanted to play guitar. In the 20s the guitar family ukulele was all the rage, developed in Hawaii from a European traditional instrument.
Lyons & Healy began making guitars before the turn of the last century. They are the modern folk harp, only far more versatile.
Might just as well go back 500 years and ask all the Irish musicians, "Why harp?"
KFG
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by KFG
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
Ben,
If you want to be heard better in a session, there’s a Lowden for sale just down the hall in another topic.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
A mate of mine plays a Lowden. I sometimes wish he'd play a soft un
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by ...
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
God save us from mono-instrumentalists pontificating on what they know not.
I play rhythm guitar at sessions and in a large gathering some king of rhythmic glue is very important. I see my job as primarily helping to keep the session together. More than one guitar doing this job causes problems, so when someone comes just with a guitar I let them do the job and I stick to melody on Whistle, Recorder and my E-Pipes.
PP
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Pied Piper
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
God save us from pontificators whatsoever. Unless of course it's me. I'm allowed.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
You're a loud what, Z?
: - P
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Q
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
Whatever I like, of course, silly man.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
Why did I learn to play the guitar? James Taylor on the radio when I was a kid. And when I started listening to ITM, and worked up the courage to join in, the guitar came to the session with me. Many people who like music pick up a guitar at some time in their life, and many discover it before they discover ITM, and so it is natural that it shows up so frequently.
Plus, the ability to bash away with at least three chords during a tune is not too difficult to develop, almost as simple as thumping away on a bodhran with a rudimentary beat (sorry drummers). So we are always going to see more guitars than are needed at sessions, and many of them will not play in a way that quite fits in. The challenge is to get these people pointed in the right direction--finding them singing sessions if they are the singing and guitar playing types, encouraging them take up a stringed melody instrument, teaching them to take turns, or helping them develop the abiltity to more than bash away.
Fortunately, at my favorite session, I am almost always the only guitarist, and the bouzouki player who shows up is great at working along with me, and we try to be sensitive to what each other is doing. And I do play melody on other instruments, so people get a break from the guitar once in a while. Another trick is to finger pick once in a while, it won't be heard well, but sometimes it is nice to participate quietly.
One problem with this music is that everyone wants to be heard above the throng--and since the music is about unison, this is hard to do, and so everyone plays lounder, which becomes a problem in itself. There is nothing wrong with being a quiet but vital part of the overall sound of it all.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
Try a stratocaster with a Marshal amp - 8x12's paired with the one of the 100 Watt heads should do it
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by dfost
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
Dude, this is ITM.
Use a Tenorcaster.
KFG
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by KFG
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
When I first started going to the local sessions it was me and Jim, both doubling guitar and bodrhan, at the rhythmn end of things. I was also taking along my old Greek 'zouk, which really wasn't cutting the mustard. It was soon obvious that both Jim and me on the same instrument was going to cause confusion, so if he played one I would play the other, without any prior arrangement.
Jim has now moved too far away to participate, and I have switched over to a better 'zouk anyway, so the space is there for a guitar, usually little Neill, who can pick tunes as well as strum, and blows a good whistle too.
There, I suggest, is your answer - be versatile, don't stick to one instrument, use your picking skills on another fretted instrument or diversify. But I hold the opinion one strummed guitar per session is enough, and value those who know when to hold back their contributions. And, no, your picking will not be too audible to you in a large gathering. Strangely enough, it may well come through more clearly at the other end of the bar. Acoustics are funny things.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
I think one of the reasons fiddles and flutes work well in pub sessions. (I'm not talking work better in general traditional Irish music, I've already done that one http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/6109/ )
... is that the things are right next to your head. OK so when there's an amount of background noise etc, it's great to have what you are doing right next to your head. It's much harder when you have a thing which is just as loud, but all the sound is projected away from your stomach.
# Posted on January 17th 2006 by ...
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
Well I have to say if you want LOUD get a Foley (foleyguitars.com), they are monsters!
Personally I don't use guitar just for backing, but when I back it's a fingerpicked combination of chords and partial melody, meant to compliment the music. Some don't like my style, but mostly people seem to like it, or at least say so. Otherwise, I woulda' taken the hint and disappeared long ago.
Guitars can really conflict though if one is playing regular chords and another hitting those jazzy ones, or if both stress a different beat. I like to play mostly with the music, not on the off beat, I really am not fond of that for this music. Just a matter of taste.
I fingerpick quite a few tunes, but they don't really work at a session so I don't do them unless asked to solo or duet with someone.
iris nevins
# Posted on January 17th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
Iris said:
" I like to play mostly with the music, not on the off beat, I really am not fond of that for this music. Just a matter of taste."
Iris I tend to agree with your taste.
A question for you though, is what do you do if the melody goes off-beat/syncopated or whatever you want to call it. Do you keep the straight beat against the flow of the melody or do you go offbeat to stay with the melody?
I like the idea of fingerpicked chords/melody accompaniment when it can be heard by you not to mention the others - I think it works very well when accompanying a soloist especially in a concert situation. I suppose at times this allows you to try to emulate a harp accompaniment.
To answer specifically the thread:
Guitars are not just for backing, we can play melody flatpicked tunes or full fingerstyle arrangements as well. It's like having three instruments in one case
# Posted on January 17th 2006 by Donough
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
Easy answer to your question Donough - if the tune goes all syncopated it means it's one of them crappy modern tunes so you can safely put your guitar down and go to the bar or chat with a friend.
# Posted on January 17th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Guitars- just for backing?
Really Dow, welI didn't ask you as I knew your answer anyways!
Anyway some our sessions get syncopated for a completely different reason and that is, that people are just out of time with each other. That's when I put the guitar down - for fear that I get the blame for the cacophany.
# Posted on January 17th 2006 by Donough