I just started the mandolin, but since I play the fiddle, I can play many tunes already on the madolin. But what I would like to be able to do is play chords at sessions during songs I dont know. Is there a specific chord pattern for each tune, or does most of the jigs in d,for ex., have the same chord pattern? If so, what are the patterns?Is the mandolin even a good instrument to play chords on?
Awwww, Michael, I'm so impressed! (I'm not taking the p*ss here, either!) You've probably no idea how self-restrained he just was, Cathryn.
Anyway, he's right -- you have to know the tune to back it well. There are people who can listen to the tune and play a decent backing to it the second time through, and there are some chord "shapes" that can help you get through the surprises a tune might throw your way, but darned if I know what they are being as I'm not a backer.
I'd suggest that you might look through the archives using the search functiion of the website, using, oh, say, "chords" or "backing". Or maybe one of our mando players can help you....?
You can find information of all things mandolinish here, at mandolincafe.com, including chords. But I have to agree with the previous posts; the mandolin is not the greatest choice for back-up of ITM, best to play the tunes. I play only mandolin, and only ITM, and it's great for that; you'll enjoy the change from bowing.
Also, good/correct chordal accompaniment to ITM on stringed things (guitars, bouzoukis, etc.) is harder than playing the melody (well, seems that way to me anyway...you need to know the tune well, and think about a lot more).
If it's singers you want to accompany, and you want to stay in the world of fifths tuning, you might try an octave mandolin. Also, I have a friend, a crack mandolinist, who tunes her guitar in fifths, so she doesn't have to think about it.
Yeah try Octave for chords. Do you have to know the tune well enough to play it? No. Persoanlly I have backed people with my old Mandolin (now I have atenor Banjo) after hearing a tune once or twice. I find that backing comes really naturally to me, I have even done harmonies on the fly on Flute that was in a 25+ person session though and we had 1 guitar and no other chords so I think it was justifiable. As Michael and I usually do I will disagree, some people can pick up a tune after a couple listens and others can play chords after a couple listens. Of course either can be a gained skill after practice if you have one you can devolp the other. You do have to know lots of chords.
You might want to look at Chris Smith's book "Celtic Back-up for all Instrumentalists". It describes a modal approach to backing up Irish traditional music and provides lots of idea and examples. A CD is included.
I've never liked mandolin as a rhythm instrument. *Except* that not long ago, I saw Mike Compton play some really cool accompaniment for old-time fiddle tunes. It was nothing at all like bluegrass chord chopping. The effect was closer to clawhammer banjo, but strummier. I'd like to hear how he'd apply the idea to ITM.
The mandolin is not great for playing chords BUT people do play chords on them. Andy Irvine plays chords and melody on the mandolin. There maybe something of interest to you here on my site http://www.chinatogalway.com/
There is also some video clips too. If you want to play chords on the mandolin you might find the tuning GDAd .
I would say get used to your instrument before going in to a session, as you see above people can be very blunt in their opinions.
Yes, you can play backup with the mandolin, but frankly I think you need to be an expert at the instrument to do it well. Don't take this the wrong way, but I have not seen very many mandolin players who can accompany anything other than bluegrass (which has a stylistic method of chopping chords) and all of those mandolinists fall in the category of Mike Compton or Roland White (in other words, the best.)
As a beginner, you will not have the immedidate ability to listen and respond to a a tune that is needed in both ITM and Old Time if you are accompanying with chords. Each of these styles responds well to subtle chordal changes which influence the color and the mood of the music. You have to be able to listen to what is being played (hence the admonition to know the tunes first) and be able to respond both to the music and the melody player(s) in a way that compliments. This means that you will have to play partial chords, power chords (no thirds), walking countermelody lines with the chords, and strategic silences. All of this implies an expert's knowledge of the instrument and its potential.
A simple "D" chord will not do a lot of the time <G>
Basically you need to learn to play the instrument first and the best way is to play the melody if you are interested in ITM - or any genera for that matter. Roland White told me that he has developed styles of accompaniment that fit the music (BG) better than the "chop" but he also said it took him 20 years or so to develop it. If you listen to Bill Monroe (who popularized the BG Chop) he only uses it sparingly when it fits in.
ITM, on the other hand, is not driven by the backbeat chop style. It requires a more sophisticated ear and a mandolin chop in a session not only muddies the water (already muddied if there are more than one chordal instrument) but is very distracting as mandolinists tend to zone out and find their own groove distinct from that of the rest of the group. Mandolins played this way can be LOUD even if the player doesn't hear it and if it is that loud it means they are not listening to the other instruments.
I play mandolin a lot in sessions and prefer to play the melody most of the time, but if there are no other chord instruments present (I know this is hard to visualize for some readers <G>) then I will try to accompany. But I have to watch the others response to my playing to make sure what I do is helping the cause. I have over 30 years of experience playing mandolin and still think I need to work very hard at this aspect.
So listen to the others, learn the music by playing melody before you attempt the backup role. One of the advantages of a mandolin is that it can be a quiet instrument allowing you to participate earlier in sessions as your mistakes will not disrupt the session the way, say, a banjo might.
I enjoy backing one or two other instruments on mandolin. Not having a lot of volume to compete with allows you to use effectively a combination of countermelody and arpeggiated or lightly strummed chords - like a miniature bouzouki (a bouzucchini?). In a big session, this sort of playing tends to either get lost behind in the fiddle and accordion or, if there are other backers present, just becomes another ingredient in an indistinct chord soup. The only option, then, is to strum the thing hard, which ends up sounding like a tuned washboard.
But don't listen to me, listen to the music and make your own judgments.
I think the mando works best in accompaniment for 'songs' when a bass and/or a guitar are present as they will fill out the chord. Chord roots (except G & D) are often tricky. Listen to Jethro Tull for that sound. With ITM though, it is probably best to stick with the melody - although the ease of the ever popular key of D makes it tempting to strum along.
chords on the mandolin
chords on the mandolin
I just started the mandolin, but since I play the fiddle, I can play many tunes already on the madolin. But what I would like to be able to do is play chords at sessions during songs I dont know. Is there a specific chord pattern for each tune, or does most of the jigs in d,for ex., have the same chord pattern? If so, what are the patterns?Is the mandolin even a good instrument to play chords on?
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by cathrynH
Re: chords on the mandolin
OK. And I'm going to be as polite as I can be:
Fact:
You can't play chords to tunes you don't know.
No:
Ther is no specific chord pattern for each tune.
No:
If you try to think it patterns, you have missed the tune.
However:
The mandolin can be a good instrument to play chords on. But. seeings as yoyu have to knoe the tune first, play the bloody tune
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by ...
Re: chords on the mandolin
Awwww, Michael, I'm so impressed! (I'm not taking the p*ss here, either!) You've probably no idea how self-restrained he just was, Cathryn.
Or maybe one of our mando players can help you....?
Anyway, he's right -- you have to know the tune to back it well. There are people who can listen to the tune and play a decent backing to it the second time through, and there are some chord "shapes" that can help you get through the surprises a tune might throw your way, but darned if I know what they are being as I'm not a backer.
I'd suggest that you might look through the archives using the search functiion of the website, using, oh, say, "chords" or "backing".
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: chords on the mandolin
Hi cathryn,
You can find information of all things mandolinish here, at mandolincafe.com, including chords. But I have to agree with the previous posts; the mandolin is not the greatest choice for back-up of ITM, best to play the tunes. I play only mandolin, and only ITM, and it's great for that; you'll enjoy the change from bowing.
Also, good/correct chordal accompaniment to ITM on stringed things (guitars, bouzoukis, etc.) is harder than playing the melody (well, seems that way to me anyway...you need to know the tune well, and think about a lot more).
If it's singers you want to accompany, and you want to stay in the world of fifths tuning, you might try an octave mandolin. Also, I have a friend, a crack mandolinist, who tunes her guitar in fifths, so she doesn't have to think about it.
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by Keith Dubinsky
Re: chords on the mandolin
Yeah try Octave for chords. Do you have to know the tune well enough to play it? No. Persoanlly I have backed people with my old Mandolin (now I have atenor Banjo) after hearing a tune once or twice. I find that backing comes really naturally to me, I have even done harmonies on the fly on Flute that was in a 25+ person session though and we had 1 guitar and no other chords so I think it was justifiable. As Michael and I usually do I will disagree, some people can pick up a tune after a couple listens and others can play chords after a couple listens. Of course either can be a gained skill after practice if you have one you can devolp the other. You do have to know lots of chords.
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by Why Bother?
Re: chords on the mandolin
Cathryn,
You might want to look at Chris Smith's book "Celtic Back-up for all Instrumentalists". It describes a modal approach to backing up Irish traditional music and provides lots of idea and examples. A CD is included.
Avi
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by improziv
Re: chords on the mandolin
I've never liked mandolin as a rhythm instrument. *Except* that not long ago, I saw Mike Compton play some really cool accompaniment for old-time fiddle tunes. It was nothing at all like bluegrass chord chopping. The effect was closer to clawhammer banjo, but strummier. I'd like to hear how he'd apply the idea to ITM.
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: chords on the mandolin
Cathryn, don't mind grumpy ol' farts.
The mandolin is not great for playing chords BUT people do play chords on them. Andy Irvine plays chords and melody on the mandolin. There maybe something of interest to you here on my site
http://www.chinatogalway.com/
There is also some video clips too. If you want to play chords on the mandolin you might find the tuning GDAd .
I would say get used to your instrument before going in to a session, as you see above people can be very blunt in their opinions.
Hope that helps
KS
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by KS
Re: chords on the mandolin
Yes, you can play backup with the mandolin, but frankly I think you need to be an expert at the instrument to do it well. Don't take this the wrong way, but I have not seen very many mandolin players who can accompany anything other than bluegrass (which has a stylistic method of chopping chords) and all of those mandolinists fall in the category of Mike Compton or Roland White (in other words, the best.)
As a beginner, you will not have the immedidate ability to listen and respond to a a tune that is needed in both ITM and Old Time if you are accompanying with chords. Each of these styles responds well to subtle chordal changes which influence the color and the mood of the music. You have to be able to listen to what is being played (hence the admonition to know the tunes first) and be able to respond both to the music and the melody player(s) in a way that compliments. This means that you will have to play partial chords, power chords (no thirds), walking countermelody lines with the chords, and strategic silences. All of this implies an expert's knowledge of the instrument and its potential.
A simple "D" chord will not do a lot of the time <G>
Basically you need to learn to play the instrument first and the best way is to play the melody if you are interested in ITM - or any genera for that matter. Roland White told me that he has developed styles of accompaniment that fit the music (BG) better than the "chop" but he also said it took him 20 years or so to develop it. If you listen to Bill Monroe (who popularized the BG Chop) he only uses it sparingly when it fits in.
ITM, on the other hand, is not driven by the backbeat chop style. It requires a more sophisticated ear and a mandolin chop in a session not only muddies the water (already muddied if there are more than one chordal instrument) but is very distracting as mandolinists tend to zone out and find their own groove distinct from that of the rest of the group. Mandolins played this way can be LOUD even if the player doesn't hear it and if it is that loud it means they are not listening to the other instruments.
I play mandolin a lot in sessions and prefer to play the melody most of the time, but if there are no other chord instruments present (I know this is hard to visualize for some readers <G>) then I will try to accompany. But I have to watch the others response to my playing to make sure what I do is helping the cause. I have over 30 years of experience playing mandolin and still think I need to work very hard at this aspect.
So listen to the others, learn the music by playing melody before you attempt the backup role. One of the advantages of a mandolin is that it can be a quiet instrument allowing you to participate earlier in sessions as your mistakes will not disrupt the session the way, say, a banjo might.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com/dec05/triplets.html
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by mikeyes
Re: chords on the mandolin
Very good piece of writing, Mike
Thanks!
Avi
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by improziv
Re: chords on the mandolin
I enjoy backing one or two other instruments on mandolin. Not having a lot of volume to compete with allows you to use effectively a combination of countermelody and arpeggiated or lightly strummed chords - like a miniature bouzouki (a bouzucchini?). In a big session, this sort of playing tends to either get lost behind in the fiddle and accordion or, if there are other backers present, just becomes another ingredient in an indistinct chord soup. The only option, then, is to strum the thing hard, which ends up sounding like a tuned washboard.
But don't listen to me, listen to the music and make your own judgments.
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: chords on the mandolin
I think the mando works best in accompaniment for 'songs' when a bass and/or a guitar are present as they will fill out the chord. Chord roots (except G & D) are often tricky. Listen to Jethro Tull for that sound. With ITM though, it is probably best to stick with the melody - although the ease of the ever popular key of D makes it tempting to strum along.
# Posted on January 14th 2006 by Moylan