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How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Dear ITMers,
centuries ago, my country (Italy) was a civilised place where arts and music were encouraged and flourished; but not anymore.
As an ITM enthusiast, passable singer and intermediate whistler, I'd love to play and sing at sessions in osterias, the Italian equivalent of pubs. But if you go to an osteria and start playing, the landlord will ask you to stop. In fact, he risks a heavy fine.
In Italy, all musical events must be approved and/or controlled by SIAE, the Italian Society of Authors and Publishers (http://www.siae.it). Its purpose is, in theory, to protect the authors' intellectual property. In practice, it's a device that sucks money from *any* possible musical or theatrical event.
I knew there were a few problems to sort out. So I went to the local SIAE office and talked to the boss. "Dear sir, a few friends of mine and I would like to play traditional music, just for fun, in bars and osterias. It's public domain music so we don't have to worry about copyright; what else should we do?"
The answer:
0. first of all, the bar owner must get a (cheap) licence from the municipality for playing music in his venue - live music, radio, CDs, whatever.
1. players must certify to SIAE that the music is traditional and public domain, for example producing a public domain tunebook. Apparently, web sites don't count.
2. the landlord must contact the local SIAE office before the session, tell them that on day X a session will be held, and declare that musicians will not be paid.
3. here's the fun part. Each player must pay a fee for the musicians' pension fund called EMPALS, managed by SIAE. The rationale is: You play music in public? Then you're a professional musician and must pay for your pension. And no, you can't give up your pension. This fee (or extortion, as I see it) is 39.16 Euros, each time you play.
4. only religious or no-profit organisations or are exempted from the EMPALS fee, but they must be *registered* organisations - and that's a load of paperwork and other fees and so on and on and on.
5. after the session, a form must be filled containing the exact list of all tunes that were played plus some information about the players/band, and it must be returned to the SIAE office.
6. players may be asked to give SIAE a recording of the session, to prove that they played the tunes they listed in the form. Alternatively, a SIAE officer may attend the session to check it out.
7. after the session, the landlord must contact the SIAE office and tell them how much money he earned thanks to the session, which is supposed to have attracted more customers.
I'm not making anything of this up. Is everything clear?
OK, stop laughing. To sum up:
- spontaneous sessions are ILLEGAL.
- if you want to play at a session, you must fork out money and put up with a lot of hassle and paperwork.
The consequence of this state of affairs is that in Italy you hardly ever hear music played in bars, and bands are rare. But since the SIAE rules don't apply in churches, there are lots of amateur choirs around - and they regularly perform in churches. The problem is, you don't normally go play ITM or other traditional music in a church...
I'll save you what you need to do if you play *and* are going to get some money.
Needless to say, the only session in my city is illegal - and players are prepared to hit the s**t out of the SIAE officer if he turns up.
I'm not going to tell you what all Italian musicians think of SIAE, I might get sued. This SIAE thing is a windmill I'm going to fight against in the next few months.
All I'd like to know from you is:
"What do you need to do to play at sessions in the UK, Ireland, or other countries? Paperwork, rules, regulations?"
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
I smiled at No.5. I can just see it now: "Well, we played that one that goes yadada diddle dee raddle a day, and that one that Bill used to play . . . . . and the musicians, well, there was me and Mick and that guy with the beard, no not him, the one who dropped his plectrum, there was the guy from Buxton with the red shirt, and there was . . . ."
It's going that way here. There used to be a jazz player in the mexican restaurant underneath Mothercare, but he's had to stop because of the new entertainment licence legislation. I'm sorry that I can't help with a properly detailed answer to your question of what's needed in the UK. I'm sure it used to be only "instruments, ability, and the proprietors permission". Someone will be along in a minute to give you a well researched answer.
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
caro goccia - Guido
bei tempi quando la gente poteva andare in osteria e cantare gli stornelli!
non ho letto tutto quello che hai scritto perche' sono pigro a tradurre,
ma la storia la conosco bene...
e di pessime storie sulla siae te ne potrei raccontare diverse...
So che a torino una persona con cui erao in contatto via email aveva provato a ribellarsi e mi sembra avesse trovato anche un modo legale per scavalcare la siae in caso di session, forse ho ancoa le sue spieazioni da qialche parte...ma si trattavai una cosa non semplice e occorreva avere veramente voglia di combattere....
tra l'altro, non c'e' solo il problema della siae, ma anche quello dell'ENPALS, che forse pero' si potrebbe eludere facendo firmare ai musicisti una dichiarazione in cui si afferma di non essere pagati per la serata...
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
I went to an ordination at a local catholic cathedral and was bemused by someone striking up on a penny whistle during the hymns.
That seems to be the answer - ITCM.
If Italian churches ar registered - start a session in the church yard - refuse flatley to play lord of the dance!
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Actually, I'm prepared to face problems with the SIAE officers. The first thing I want to do is find out how to make sure the landlord does not get fined. Then it'll be my business.
If I play and get fined, I will simply refuse to pay and will see what happens. Obviously, I'm going to bring this issue to public attention. I can be a real pain in the a**e when I want to, and I have spare time to invest.
Gian Marco: yes, I know it's not simple and I'm ready to fight. If you find some information, please contact me. Grazie.
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
A year ago a friend an I were 'thrown out' of a pub in the fines state of NSW because we had the timerity to find a quiet corner and play a few quiet tunes together while waiting for our meal to arrive. It was truly quiet because we had a nylon string guitar and a bouzouki. We were disturbing no-one (we were out in the beer garden). The publican was paranoid that he would be reported to the licensing bureacracy for having live music, for which he didn't have alicense. He was p*ssed off that we hadn'r checked with him first. Luckily we were in a border town. We crossed the Murray river into NSW and played in a pub in that state instead.
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Wow Goccia! I guess I should be grateful that I find it hard to believe things can be as bad as you say! (With the greatest respect, there is an pronunciation of your username that could cause people to fear a wind-up.) But anyway. In England there was a big fuss a couple of years ago when the government decided to bring in new licensing laws that would require almost all live music to be licensed. The legislation seemed very restrictive and intrusive, despite government denials. We're still in the implementation phase of that legislation and it remains to be seen what effect it will have. In theory every pub that holds a session is required to be licensed for music. By and large, no big copyright issues for sessions here.
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
I thought there was this Italian tradition that some things were above the law and you didn't need to worry about them, and that for others you just bribed the authorities not to look ( or was that Mexico ? ).
Anyway, it sounds appaling, to think that we were worried about the new Licensing Act.
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
You can't NOT risk the landlord, Goccia. If you want to tilt at this particular windmill, you will have to find a landlord who is prepared to tilt with you. (BTW, the disclaimer is that I'm not a lawyer, but I've been through this already with the American version of this cartel.)
Other than that, perhaps you should do as the Irish did. Take the music back into the homes. Nothing wrong with a kitchen session, if your neighbors don't mind it.
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
I know how this racket works. There's not a thing you can do when a bureaucratic structure hijacks something as free and abstract as the playing of music. And FOLK music, no less.
I went out busking one night in Delray Beach with a friend of mine, him on the banjo and myself on the mandolin. It's a pretty wealthy little strip by the beach, and at first it looked as if we were going to clean up nicely. I guess it seemed to those people that any kind of music you don't hear on the radio is as good as taking a trip to the zoo, because after a few drinks and spilling out on the sidewalk, they were slinging out dollar bills like nobody's business. And to hear it LIVE! Well. They musn't have realized that people still do that kinda thing anymore. You know. PLAY the music as well as listen to it.
But within ten minutes, the local cops weren't too happy about it, so we closed up the case and decided to sit in a little park area and have a few tunes before calling it a night and moving on. After making 10 or 12 dollars inside of 15 minutes, we hadn't even time to get warmed up. But it wasn't five minutes later on this little bench when up comes two of uniforms, seemingly materialized out of thin air, and the first one had the gall to ask if we knew what we were doing. Shocked, but somewhat bemused, I replied that I certainly did hope we knew what we were doing, because I'd been playing the mando for going on nine years, and if I didn't know what I was doing on it, then I certainly had wasted a pretty bit of my time.
He wasn't amused, and after informing us that we were "panhandling people for money," he threatened to write us a court citation for panhandling, obstructing a public right-of-way and (on top of it all) entertaining without a permit.
And this same story (change the names, change the faces), has happened to me in each city where I've played on the street in South Florida. Money or no, the cops move you along. If you don't move, or if you otherwise return, even on a different night, then they threaten you with a citation.
Ah. In its tourist brochure, Florida calls itself the "State of the Arts." Boca Raton lost its orchestra, Palm Beach is having major trouble with its orchestra, and the bottom line is that in a "State of the Arts," if you want to play music outside on a public street for the pure enjoyment therein, and not in a club or venue where it can be accordingly taxed (milked) and taxed (bled) again, then you better be ready to either shell out for a permit or be ready to plead your case to the judge.
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Bloody Hell,
Unfortunately, we're going to see a lot more of this sort of thing going on in many different countries, as the globalist elites line their pockets and remove more and more of our freedoms.
It'll not be long before they figure out a way to tax people for merely appearing in public...
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
I don't know why, but there's a local privately-sponsored session in a place I know well but can't remember where otherwise I would tell you, in council-owned licenced premises, and you have to fill in a form noting down the tunes you have played and their authors or trad status. It must be due to some similar sort of legislation or agreement.
I've been quite amazed after some of these sessions to see the weird and wonderful names the tunes had.
It also occurs to me that regardless of gravelwalk's superb mandolin-playing on Delray Beach, if the local police were not so diligent in chasing away buskers, then supply might tend to exceed demand, and strolling players might not be so likely to be showered with dollar bills (do they still have them?) ...? You have destroyed my image of carefree South Florida
However I have to say it makes me feel very fortunate that in most of the villages, towns and cities of Scotland I've been in, upon meeting another musician by chance, and you're both "packing heat", it is usually no problem at all to find a pub which will tolerate a little sociable tune swapping in a back corner. A few text messages later and there's your session developing. The publican's willingness to tolerate this is aided by the knowledge that the musicians alone will drink enough to increase his takings, never mind the punters. Not always the case elsewhere, I hear.
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Times have sure changed in Italy: when I began playing mandolin tunes on the station platform at Battipaglia years ago the locals threw coins and cheered - or were they jeers that got lost in translation ... anyway the coins were worthless but at least they weren't sharpened
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Goccia (not 'gotcha', mind you...) replying.
My granddad lived under Mussolini's fascist regime, yet he was free to bring his mandolin along and play it anywhere, no fuss, no laws, no fees. I live in a democracy, Berlusconi permitting, and can't do a bloody thing unless I pay taxes, fees, extortion money etc.
The funny thing is, the Italian Constitution explicitely promotes arts and culture. What happens in practice is the deliberate destruction of all forms of culture, research, and education.
Bad times for Italy. I'll try and fight this campaign, and probably will set up a web site about it. Will let you know.
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
As a resident, I'd hardly call the place carefree!
South Florida might have a lot to offer the tourist in the way of warm weather and a change of scenery, but in terms of attitude and culture, I think that the place has very little to justify the astronomical rents, high gas prices, hurricanes, traffic and generally high cost of living. Speaking from the perspective of a 25-year-old native resident, I have to say that as I have watched the average age and average income creep higher each year, and watched the houses get larger and cars get fancier, I have noticed a reluctance to embrace whatever is not considered the status quo, and often a downright hostility on all levels toward anything you might see as remotely out of the ordinary. I guess you might call that typical, but I call it sad.
So yes, Bren is right: it's true that by making ITM the "rare bird," the people tend to appreciate it a great deal more when it does happen to appear (truth be told, I was totally shocked to find myself making that much money so quickly). I have no problem with that. I do, however, have a probem with cities and police that sweep culture (in this case street performers - and not necessarily ones asking for money either.. I've seen it happen on Clematis Street in West Palm Beach, in Young Circle Park in Hollywood too) off the street and cite official policy when doing so.
I guess what I am trying to note is that a lot of places have made policy, with good intentions I'm sure, but maybe not, and that inevitably stifles creativity and the very nature of the music we play. I, for one, feel uncomfortable that my civil liberties have been violated when a policeman hustles me out of a park for playing music with a friend. He and the city council would be happy to see me pour buckets of money into the expensive restaurants and bars there, I'm sure. But they're whipping out their ticket books when I have a diddle on a park bench nearby? and I take serious issue with that because it seems a little heavy handed and completely unfair.
If the music is going to happen here (which it does, on occasion), then it needs to happen in a sanctioned environment, under strict supervision, inside the box, and nowhere where it might get out of control and possibly hurt someone! God forbid you and a friend should stroll into a pub and have a few tunes in a quiet corner while waiting for your pints to settle. THAT could be dangerous. It seems like the only alternative then is to either stay between the lines and jump through all kinds of hoops to get the music played in public, or, jump through all kinds of hoops to organize people to play in private. It would really be nice, though, if I didn't have to do this much thinking just to play music, of all things.
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Oh God! It sounds horrible. I cant imagine this in my land, even here is diffrent problem. There is not live music in pubs, because simply nobody expect it. Owners of pubs or Cafe are usually against live music, you have to have luck to find some nice place to play and mostly only because you know owner. There is few irish pubs here in Prague known for irish music, but in other pubs they dont like to see musicians. I found sometimes helpfull do reservation of separated room in a Pub for private party of musicians which will include live music. Owners of pubs are warned in advanced and have chance to agree. Session has statute of private closed party (but God knows who was invited and who not ... people simply come. I know nothing about law, but may be this "private birthday party style.... (or any other reason to celebrate) " can be helpful. People here in session.org are also right. Do session at home in kitchen or during summer on garden (with grill party etc, if your neighbours will agree. It's best way. It can have nice atmosphere.
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Jode, when did I ever say anything even remotely like that?
I have a question for you Italians though. I heard that the Guinness from Ireland doesn't have to be pasteurized and preserved according to import laws like it does here and that it's the same stout brewed for the Irish markets. Is this true? Does anyone know what restrictions Guinness has for exports, and does it differ according to what country it's headed? Inquiring beer drinkers want to know.
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Years ago, I used to do a little busking with friends in the parks and sidewalks of Atlanta, Georgia. Festivals in Piedmont Park were always a great busking opportunity. Lots of appreciative listeners, lots of fun, enough cash in the hat to pay for gas, strings and lunch. Then attitudes changed and the festivals wanted only union musicians playing anywhere in the park. At about the same time, the city decided that busking had to be limited to a few designated spots and the musicians had to *audition* for the spots.
Where is this headed? Shrink-wrapped manufactured culture kits for every city?
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Dear Goccia, I remember that there was some talk of bringing in some similar kind of law into effect here. We signed a petition against it and sent it to the local MP. When did that law start in Italy? Perhaps its something worth lobbying your member of parliament with. What about cafes just to foster and try and establish the tradition of playing informally in public? Good luck.
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Gawd Jack, all I know is that I had a bottle of Guinness the other day, and the bliddy stuff was made in Canada. What's up with that? And now you can't even get a beer from Japan. Even Sapporo is made in the GWNorth. Argh.
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
That's why I buy those Guinness in the tall can ones. They're brewed in Ireland and actually taste better than what they pour at my local pub. A lot has to do with after taste. The startling thing I noticed about the Guinness at the local pub right after returning from Ireland was the after taste. When I took my first sip I noticed a little bit on the front, but it was the after taste that killed it. The cans don't have nearly as much bad after taste.
<rant>As you know, it’s the pasteurization and preservatives that ruin the beer. Being brewed under license outside of Ireland probably makes things worse. Keep in mind that Hershey’s produces Cadbury’s chocolate under license in the US and it tastes like chocolate flavored wax compared to the product from Coolock Dublin. The same holds through with the Guinness. Bleck!</rant>
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
When they first came out we conducted a blind taste test at the pub that was considered the best in SF for pints of Guinness. 2 out of 5 people prefered the canned Guinness, 2 out of 5 preferred the pints from the pub, and 1 out of 5 couldn't tell any difference.
No one liked the canned Guinness straight from the can, (indicated as a bad idea if you read the instructions.) You have to chill it and pour the whole thing slowly into a pint glass or it will be sh*te.
How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Dear ITMers,
centuries ago, my country (Italy) was a civilised place where arts and music were encouraged and flourished; but not anymore.
As an ITM enthusiast, passable singer and intermediate whistler, I'd love to play and sing at sessions in osterias, the Italian equivalent of pubs. But if you go to an osteria and start playing, the landlord will ask you to stop. In fact, he risks a heavy fine.
In Italy, all musical events must be approved and/or controlled by SIAE, the Italian Society of Authors and Publishers (http://www.siae.it). Its purpose is, in theory, to protect the authors' intellectual property. In practice, it's a device that sucks money from *any* possible musical or theatrical event.
I knew there were a few problems to sort out. So I went to the local SIAE office and talked to the boss. "Dear sir, a few friends of mine and I would like to play traditional music, just for fun, in bars and osterias. It's public domain music so we don't have to worry about copyright; what else should we do?"
The answer:
0. first of all, the bar owner must get a (cheap) licence from the municipality for playing music in his venue - live music, radio, CDs, whatever.
1. players must certify to SIAE that the music is traditional and public domain, for example producing a public domain tunebook. Apparently, web sites don't count.
2. the landlord must contact the local SIAE office before the session, tell them that on day X a session will be held, and declare that musicians will not be paid.
3. here's the fun part. Each player must pay a fee for the musicians' pension fund called EMPALS, managed by SIAE. The rationale is: You play music in public? Then you're a professional musician and must pay for your pension. And no, you can't give up your pension. This fee (or extortion, as I see it) is 39.16 Euros, each time you play.
4. only religious or no-profit organisations or are exempted from the EMPALS fee, but they must be *registered* organisations - and that's a load of paperwork and other fees and so on and on and on.
5. after the session, a form must be filled containing the exact list of all tunes that were played plus some information about the players/band, and it must be returned to the SIAE office.
6. players may be asked to give SIAE a recording of the session, to prove that they played the tunes they listed in the form. Alternatively, a SIAE officer may attend the session to check it out.
7. after the session, the landlord must contact the SIAE office and tell them how much money he earned thanks to the session, which is supposed to have attracted more customers.
I'm not making anything of this up. Is everything clear?
OK, stop laughing. To sum up:
- spontaneous sessions are ILLEGAL.
- if you want to play at a session, you must fork out money and put up with a lot of hassle and paperwork.
The consequence of this state of affairs is that in Italy you hardly ever hear music played in bars, and bands are rare. But since the SIAE rules don't apply in churches, there are lots of amateur choirs around - and they regularly perform in churches. The problem is, you don't normally go play ITM or other traditional music in a church...
I'll save you what you need to do if you play *and* are going to get some money.
Needless to say, the only session in my city is illegal - and players are prepared to hit the s**t out of the SIAE officer if he turns up.
I'm not going to tell you what all Italian musicians think of SIAE, I might get sued. This SIAE thing is a windmill I'm going to fight against in the next few months.
All I'd like to know from you is:
"What do you need to do to play at sessions in the UK, Ireland, or other countries? Paperwork, rules, regulations?"
Thanks a lot.
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by Guidus
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
just play mate, get arrested, don't pay the fine etc etc. Who knows? you might start a movement!
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by mcknowall
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
I smiled at No.5. I can just see it now: "Well, we played that one that goes yadada diddle dee raddle a day, and that one that Bill used to play . . . . . and the musicians, well, there was me and Mick and that guy with the beard, no not him, the one who dropped his plectrum, there was the guy from Buxton with the red shirt, and there was . . . ."
It's going that way here. There used to be a jazz player in the mexican restaurant underneath Mothercare, but he's had to stop because of the new entertainment licence legislation. I'm sorry that I can't help with a properly detailed answer to your question of what's needed in the UK. I'm sure it used to be only "instruments, ability, and the proprietors permission". Someone will be along in a minute to give you a well researched answer.
Good luck with your campaign Goccia.
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
caro goccia - Guido
bei tempi quando la gente poteva andare in osteria e cantare gli stornelli!
non ho letto tutto quello che hai scritto perche' sono pigro a tradurre,
ma la storia la conosco bene...
e di pessime storie sulla siae te ne potrei raccontare diverse...
So che a torino una persona con cui erao in contatto via email aveva provato a ribellarsi e mi sembra avesse trovato anche un modo legale per scavalcare la siae in caso di session, forse ho ancoa le sue spieazioni da qialche parte...ma si trattavai una cosa non semplice e occorreva avere veramente voglia di combattere....
tra l'altro, non c'e' solo il problema della siae, ma anche quello dell'ENPALS, che forse pero' si potrebbe eludere facendo firmare ai musicisti una dichiarazione in cui si afferma di non essere pagati per la serata...
ciao
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by gian marco
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Ah - the Welsh post office trick.
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by showaddydadito
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
I went to an ordination at a local catholic cathedral and was bemused by someone striking up on a penny whistle during the hymns.
That seems to be the answer - ITCM.
If Italian churches ar registered - start a session in the church yard - refuse flatley to play lord of the dance!
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by geoffwright
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Actually, I'm prepared to face problems with the SIAE officers. The first thing I want to do is find out how to make sure the landlord does not get fined. Then it'll be my business.
If I play and get fined, I will simply refuse to pay and will see what happens. Obviously, I'm going to bring this issue to public attention. I can be a real pain in the a**e when I want to, and I have spare time to invest.
Gian Marco: yes, I know it's not simple and I'm ready to fight. If you find some information, please contact me. Grazie.
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by Guidus
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
A year ago a friend an I were 'thrown out' of a pub in the fines state of NSW because we had the timerity to find a quiet corner and play a few quiet tunes together while waiting for our meal to arrive. It was truly quiet because we had a nylon string guitar and a bouzouki. We were disturbing no-one (we were out in the beer garden). The publican was paranoid that he would be reported to the licensing bureacracy for having live music, for which he didn't have alicense. He was p*ssed off that we hadn'r checked with him first. Luckily we were in a border town. We crossed the Murray river into NSW and played in a pub in that state instead.
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by NeilBarr
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
I think I might learn Italian next. It looks cool.
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by Dow
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Wow Goccia! I guess I should be grateful that I find it hard to believe things can be as bad as you say! (With the greatest respect, there is an pronunciation of your username that could cause people to fear a wind-up.) But anyway. In England there was a big fuss a couple of years ago when the government decided to bring in new licensing laws that would require almost all live music to be licensed. The legislation seemed very restrictive and intrusive, despite government denials. We're still in the implementation phase of that legislation and it remains to be seen what effect it will have. In theory every pub that holds a session is required to be licensed for music. By and large, no big copyright issues for sessions here.
There's a flavour of the whole thing at
http://lawzone.thelawyer.com/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=112691&d=205&h=207&f=259
(all one line)
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by TomB-R
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Blimey!
Is this what might happen if we join the euro?
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by maxF
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
I thought there was this Italian tradition that some things were above the law and you didn't need to worry about them, and that for others you just bribed the authorities not to look ( or was that Mexico ? ).
Anyway, it sounds appaling, to think that we were worried about the new Licensing Act.
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
In Ireland they would almost fine you if you didn't play!
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by TyroneMick
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
You can't NOT risk the landlord, Goccia. If you want to tilt at this particular windmill, you will have to find a landlord who is prepared to tilt with you. (BTW, the disclaimer is that I'm not a lawyer, but I've been through this already with the American version of this cartel.)
Other than that, perhaps you should do as the Irish did. Take the music back into the homes. Nothing wrong with a kitchen session, if your neighbors don't mind it.
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Strange. A friend of mine has been to sessions in Italy before and they never seemed to have this problem.
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by Crysania
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
I know how this racket works. There's not a thing you can do when a bureaucratic structure hijacks something as free and abstract as the playing of music. And FOLK music, no less.
I went out busking one night in Delray Beach with a friend of mine, him on the banjo and myself on the mandolin. It's a pretty wealthy little strip by the beach, and at first it looked as if we were going to clean up nicely. I guess it seemed to those people that any kind of music you don't hear on the radio is as good as taking a trip to the zoo, because after a few drinks and spilling out on the sidewalk, they were slinging out dollar bills like nobody's business. And to hear it LIVE! Well. They musn't have realized that people still do that kinda thing anymore. You know. PLAY the music as well as listen to it.
But within ten minutes, the local cops weren't too happy about it, so we closed up the case and decided to sit in a little park area and have a few tunes before calling it a night and moving on. After making 10 or 12 dollars inside of 15 minutes, we hadn't even time to get warmed up. But it wasn't five minutes later on this little bench when up comes two of uniforms, seemingly materialized out of thin air, and the first one had the gall to ask if we knew what we were doing. Shocked, but somewhat bemused, I replied that I certainly did hope we knew what we were doing, because I'd been playing the mando for going on nine years, and if I didn't know what I was doing on it, then I certainly had wasted a pretty bit of my time.
He wasn't amused, and after informing us that we were "panhandling people for money," he threatened to write us a court citation for panhandling, obstructing a public right-of-way and (on top of it all) entertaining without a permit.
And this same story (change the names, change the faces), has happened to me in each city where I've played on the street in South Florida. Money or no, the cops move you along. If you don't move, or if you otherwise return, even on a different night, then they threaten you with a citation.
Ah. In its tourist brochure, Florida calls itself the "State of the Arts." Boca Raton lost its orchestra, Palm Beach is having major trouble with its orchestra, and the bottom line is that in a "State of the Arts," if you want to play music outside on a public street for the pure enjoyment therein, and not in a club or venue where it can be accordingly taxed (milked) and taxed (bled) again, then you better be ready to either shell out for a permit or be ready to plead your case to the judge.
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by gravelwalks
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Bloody Hell,
Unfortunately, we're going to see a lot more of this sort of thing going on in many different countries, as the globalist elites line their pockets and remove more and more of our freedoms.
It'll not be long before they figure out a way to tax people for merely appearing in public...
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by goatwhacker
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
I don't know why, but there's a local privately-sponsored session in a place I know well but can't remember where otherwise I would tell you, in council-owned licenced premises, and you have to fill in a form noting down the tunes you have played and their authors or trad status. It must be due to some similar sort of legislation or agreement.
I've been quite amazed after some of these sessions to see the weird and wonderful names the tunes had.
It also occurs to me that regardless of gravelwalk's superb mandolin-playing on Delray Beach, if the local police were not so diligent in chasing away buskers, then supply might tend to exceed demand, and strolling players might not be so likely to be showered with dollar bills (do they still have them?) ...? You have destroyed my image of carefree South Florida
However I have to say it makes me feel very fortunate that in most of the villages, towns and cities of Scotland I've been in, upon meeting another musician by chance, and you're both "packing heat", it is usually no problem at all to find a pub which will tolerate a little sociable tune swapping in a back corner. A few text messages later and there's your session developing. The publican's willingness to tolerate this is aided by the knowledge that the musicians alone will drink enough to increase his takings, never mind the punters. Not always the case elsewhere, I hear.
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by Bren
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Times have sure changed in Italy: when I began playing mandolin tunes on the station platform at Battipaglia years ago the locals threw coins and cheered - or were they jeers that got lost in translation ... anyway the coins were worthless but at least they weren't sharpened
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by dogbox
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Goccia (not 'gotcha', mind you...) replying.
My granddad lived under Mussolini's fascist regime, yet he was free to bring his mandolin along and play it anywhere, no fuss, no laws, no fees. I live in a democracy, Berlusconi permitting, and can't do a bloody thing unless I pay taxes, fees, extortion money etc.
The funny thing is, the Italian Constitution explicitely promotes arts and culture. What happens in practice is the deliberate destruction of all forms of culture, research, and education.
Bad times for Italy. I'll try and fight this campaign, and probably will set up a web site about it. Will let you know.
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by Guidus
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
As a resident, I'd hardly call the place carefree!
South Florida might have a lot to offer the tourist in the way of warm weather and a change of scenery, but in terms of attitude and culture, I think that the place has very little to justify the astronomical rents, high gas prices, hurricanes, traffic and generally high cost of living. Speaking from the perspective of a 25-year-old native resident, I have to say that as I have watched the average age and average income creep higher each year, and watched the houses get larger and cars get fancier, I have noticed a reluctance to embrace whatever is not considered the status quo, and often a downright hostility on all levels toward anything you might see as remotely out of the ordinary. I guess you might call that typical, but I call it sad.
So yes, Bren is right: it's true that by making ITM the "rare bird," the people tend to appreciate it a great deal more when it does happen to appear (truth be told, I was totally shocked to find myself making that much money so quickly). I have no problem with that. I do, however, have a probem with cities and police that sweep culture (in this case street performers - and not necessarily ones asking for money either.. I've seen it happen on Clematis Street in West Palm Beach, in Young Circle Park in Hollywood too) off the street and cite official policy when doing so.
I guess what I am trying to note is that a lot of places have made policy, with good intentions I'm sure, but maybe not, and that inevitably stifles creativity and the very nature of the music we play. I, for one, feel uncomfortable that my civil liberties have been violated when a policeman hustles me out of a park for playing music with a friend. He and the city council would be happy to see me pour buckets of money into the expensive restaurants and bars there, I'm sure. But they're whipping out their ticket books when I have a diddle on a park bench nearby? and I take serious issue with that because it seems a little heavy handed and completely unfair.
If the music is going to happen here (which it does, on occasion), then it needs to happen in a sanctioned environment, under strict supervision, inside the box, and nowhere where it might get out of control and possibly hurt someone! God forbid you and a friend should stroll into a pub and have a few tunes in a quiet corner while waiting for your pints to settle. THAT could be dangerous. It seems like the only alternative then is to either stay between the lines and jump through all kinds of hoops to get the music played in public, or, jump through all kinds of hoops to organize people to play in private. It would really be nice, though, if I didn't have to do this much thinking just to play music, of all things.
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by gravelwalks
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Oh God! It sounds horrible. I cant imagine this in my land, even here is diffrent problem. There is not live music in pubs, because simply nobody expect it. Owners of pubs or Cafe are usually against live music, you have to have luck to find some nice place to play and mostly only because you know owner. There is few irish pubs here in Prague known for irish music, but in other pubs they dont like to see musicians. I found sometimes helpfull do reservation of separated room in a Pub for private party of musicians which will include live music. Owners of pubs are warned in advanced and have chance to agree. Session has statute of private closed party (but God knows who was invited and who not
... people simply come. I know nothing about law, but may be this "private birthday party style.... (or any other reason to celebrate) " can be helpful. People here in session.org are also right. Do session at home in kitchen or during summer on garden (with grill party 
etc, if your neighbours will agree. It's best way. It can have nice atmosphere.
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by maffet
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Has Jack moved to Italy?
Followers of the ongoing session/performance debate, please note point 3 above. Hmmm, where have we seen this language before?
"You play music in public? Then you are a professional musician."
: ~ )
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by Jode
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
So, I suppose busking in Italy is out, then?
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by ragaman
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Dunno -- why don't you go to Italy, try to make a living busking, and start a blog about it?
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Jode, when did I ever say anything even remotely like that?
I have a question for you Italians though. I heard that the Guinness from Ireland doesn't have to be pasteurized and preserved according to import laws like it does here and that it's the same stout brewed for the Irish markets. Is this true? Does anyone know what restrictions Guinness has for exports, and does it differ according to what country it's headed? Inquiring beer drinkers want to know.
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Years ago, I used to do a little busking with friends in the parks and sidewalks of Atlanta, Georgia. Festivals in Piedmont Park were always a great busking opportunity. Lots of appreciative listeners, lots of fun, enough cash in the hat to pay for gas, strings and lunch. Then attitudes changed and the festivals wanted only union musicians playing anywhere in the park. At about the same time, the city decided that busking had to be limited to a few designated spots and the musicians had to *audition* for the spots.
Where is this headed? Shrink-wrapped manufactured culture kits for every city?
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
It's headed wherever passive citizenry allows it to head.
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by joesmith
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Dear Goccia, I remember that there was some talk of bringing in some similar kind of law into effect here. We signed a petition against it and sent it to the local MP. When did that law start in Italy? Perhaps its something worth lobbying your member of parliament with. What about cafes just to foster and try and establish the tradition of playing informally in public? Good luck.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by wendyann
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Gawd Jack, all I know is that I had a bottle of Guinness the other day, and the bliddy stuff was made in Canada. What's up with that? And now you can't even get a beer from Japan. Even Sapporo is made in the GWNorth. Argh.
# Posted on January 17th 2006 by Jode
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
That's why I buy those Guinness in the tall can ones. They're brewed in Ireland and actually taste better than what they pour at my local pub. A lot has to do with after taste. The startling thing I noticed about the Guinness at the local pub right after returning from Ireland was the after taste. When I took my first sip I noticed a little bit on the front, but it was the after taste that killed it. The cans don't have nearly as much bad after taste.
<rant>As you know, it’s the pasteurization and preservatives that ruin the beer. Being brewed under license outside of Ireland probably makes things worse. Keep in mind that Hershey’s produces Cadbury’s chocolate under license in the US and it tastes like chocolate flavored wax compared to the product from Coolock Dublin. The same holds through with the Guinness. Bleck!</rant>
# Posted on January 17th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
Jack, you're the first person I've ever heard of who actually likes the Guinness in cans.
# Posted on January 17th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
For me, drinking Guinness out of cans would lower my standard of living to an unbearable level.
# Posted on January 17th 2006 by Dow
Re: How (not) to play at sessions in Italy (or: session bureaucracy)
When they first came out we conducted a blind taste test at the pub that was considered the best in SF for pints of Guinness. 2 out of 5 people prefered the canned Guinness, 2 out of 5 preferred the pints from the pub, and 1 out of 5 couldn't tell any difference.
# Posted on January 17th 2006 by Phantom Button
P.S.
No one liked the canned Guinness straight from the can, (indicated as a bad idea if you read the instructions.) You have to chill it and pour the whole thing slowly into a pint glass or it will be sh*te.
# Posted on January 17th 2006 by Phantom Button