I'm having trouble playing bowed triplets up to speed. It's getting very frustrating. Could anyone suggest some tips or even tunes to learn that would help in getting better at them?
1) Don't force it, it's the light touch that does it.
2) Decide whether you want to bow down-up-down (the most common) or up-down-up and stick with that pattern for the next few years.
3) Try to slur the last note of the triplet onto the next note.
4) Try both scratchy triplets ('the Tommy Peoples kind' ) and more relaxed ones where you still can hear the separate notes.
5) Be patient, this usually takes time.
Dinkie' s is a good reel to use loads of triplets.
Henk Bos has made some great suggestions. I agree with most. ( My only difference would be that I would slur into the triplet instead of out of it.) I would also say that the most important thing to have to do triplets would be a very flexible wrist as the triplet action is achieved by the flick of your wrist. In my opinion that would be the most important way to get your triplets up to speed. Practice looking at yourself in the mirror and if your shoulder or arm from the shoulder to the elbow is moving that would be what's holding you back. Good Luck and I hope this helps!!
Henk's points are good (particularly 2,4, and 5). I would add:
1) use your wrist, not your arm.
2) hold the bow firmly, but not too tightly.
3) Bite down on the first of the triplets a bit more than the others
but most importantly:
4) Play pairs of a triplet and a long note: DAAH dig-a-ta DAAH dig-a-ta, ( "D2 (3DDD D2 (3DDD" for ABC-saavy folks). Do this over and over again for 10 minutes a day--starting slowly, and when it gets easier, do it faster.
Once you get that exercise down, add another long note to the mix: "DAAH DAAH dig-a-ta DAAH DAAH-dig-a-ta" (or "D2 D2 (3DDD D2 D2 (3DDD" in ABC, again). This is tricky, since you will need to either do the triplets in both directions (which is hard and uncommon) or stop the bow and continue it in the same direction either before or after the triplet (which is much more popular).
Be aware that if your triplets seem to work in some places and not others, it's very likely because you are trying to do the triplet in either an unfamiliar direction, an awkward location (bottom or top of the bow) or both...
We've now had so many discussions on bowed triplets that I cannot (shock, horror) point to any one or two discussions! All of them have brought up different things about them that have been very helpful. I'd suggest doing a search using "bowed triplets" to start with, and don't be afraid to go back in time to the earlier threads, as Will especially has posted some really good stuff back in the mists of time.
But you're not going to go far wrong with what's here already. (Hi George!)
I think of it less as a flick of the wrist than a tiny jiggle of the index finger. As Brian Conway says, keep the motion as close to the stick as possible--in other words, using your whole forearm or wrist to do the triplet will result in a large, hard-to-control motion. For crisp, tight triplets (of either the percussive "cat sneeze" kind or the more open, distinct note kind), the motion really is limited to the index and thumb.
The bow strokes leading into and out of a triplet are also very important, but it's useful to be able to do slurs *or* separate bow strokes in either case.
Best for now to concentrate on the triplet itself. If your melodic triplets in hornpipes are sloppy, work on tightening those up before you spend too much time on more percussive triplets. Learn the Belfast Hornpipe and use separate bow strokes for every triplet in the C part. Focus on using as little arm and wrist as possible, letting the fingers do the up and down motion.
Then begin to work on percussive triplets by drawing a long up bow, then down-up-down. Think "small" rather than "fast." Getting your triplets to sound good isn't about quickness (even though that's what it might sound like when listening to others) so much as it is about making the motion microscopic.
One image that helped me was to feel the index finger "unweighting" off the first down bow, which lets the bow almost bounce into the up bow. Also, many Irish fiddlers release all fingers on the stick except the index and thumb when doing triplets--a sign of how relaxed and light your touch on the bow needs to be. It's also a matter of physics--if you lift your pinky off the stick and let that side of the hand rise a good ways, you're lining the mass of your hand up over the balance point of where the index meets the thumb. So instead of spreading that hand mass out over the usual 3 inches or so of stick, it's now concentrated over a spot less than half an inch long. You've essentially brought the fulcrum of your hand from a wide base to a sharp point, making the lever of the bow less stable. But this frees the bow up to change direction quickly and in tiny increments, letting the triplet motion happen much more easily.
In short, the goal here is triplets that sound (and feel) smooth and effortless. And yes, it takes most people many months to do this, and years more to gain real control and consistency with it. So be patient with yourself and keep playing with it.
I’ve never done a decent bowed triplet and after I learned to do rolls and crannish things, I quit trying. But I think I’ll take inspiration from this discussion and give it another go.
A question, though: I’ve watched Frankie F. Gavin a lot and he definitely uses lots of arm in his triplets. Is he such a brilliant outlier that we should ignore that, or is it a practicable approach for some of us normal humans?
Bob, I've never seen Frankie play close up, so I don't know how he does his triplets. But every other ace fiddler I've seen does bowed triplets with such small movements--almost imperceptible. The clincher was Eileen Ivers--she has it down to a micro-tic of the index finger, invisible even from 5 feet away, and what amazing control of the timing and clarity of each note she has!
I suffered through a prolonged apprenticeship on triplets, for ages thinking of the motion as "stopping the forearm and letting the wrist bounce." You can imagine the results I got with that. For years, I could play only harsh, crunchy triplets, and most of the time the individual notes were mushed together. If these were cat sneeze triplets, it was a mangey old lion with a bad head cold.
Then I went through a phase of relaxing the arm and doing all the work with the wrist. Much better, but still not as crisp as what I was hearing good fiddlers do. It's really only been in the last 6 years that I've lasered in on the index and thumb, and learned to really loosen up. And I'll probably always have to work on being able to consistently do them well, though most days I'm able to do them as well as I hear them in my head. In fact, they're one of the few things I consider a "strength" in my playing (which may say more about the rest of my technique than it does about my triplets, lol).
Two specifc exercises helped me.
First, I learned to let go of the bow by playign while it freely dangled from my index and thumb. Any other finger that touched the stick was totally limp and had no influence on the stick. By exaggerating a relaxed hold this way, I found how little "hold" is really needed to control the bow. Whenever my triplets gunk up, I release my hand toward "the dangle" and the crispness comes right back.
Second, I did up and down bows using only my thumb and index finger to move the stick. Short little bow strokes in the middle of the hair, made with a motion that looks like I'm picking a wooden match stick up off the table without moving my hand. Do that for 2-3 minutes, and do it every day for three weeks, and your bow control will improve immensely.
Then it's just a minor matter of coordinating all of that into your larger bow motions, while playing tunes. Easy peasy. Hah.
I can’t think of anybody else I’ve seen use that much arm movement. Maybe Aly Bain? Not knowing any better, that’s the way I tried to learn it many years ago, before I’d seen a real Irish fiddler. It never sounded better than crap and always tensed up my arm.
The other thing to keep in mind is that some performers do extraneous stuff for visual effect--there was a running joke here for a time about the piper's seductive hair toss.
But now that you mention it, I do recall Aly Bain giving a bit more oomph to his hand for triplets. Some people have total noodle wrists, andevery change in bow direction is like putting the bobble head in motion. But the fiddlers who can really crack nice triplets all seem to whittle the motion down to the smallest and "closest to the stick" possible.
Will's descriptions, as ever, have me going: do I do that? yeah, actually, and I never thought about it. But there's such a variety of bowed triplets available, from smooth back to back multiples in hornpipes that are really just slides/fast jigs, to the percussive "shake" right on the beat in a reel, that there are many ways to do them.
Me? And I'm not saying this necessarily helps. Only that the way I've always approached it is to really hear it first. And then the technique just kind of sorts itself out, without effort. I know this is an anathema to Will's approach and I'm not saying it will work for everyone. It's just that sometimes, when you really really try to nail something that is such a tiny movement/sound/thing, you can just get lost in trying and that maybe not trying will fix it.
Actually, I was going to say something along the same lines. because I'm not convinced that good clean bowed triplets are something you can slow down and pick apart and reassemble into the genuine article again. I can certainly write about them that way, but the actual journey to doing them strikes me as more organic. In my case, they started working when my bowing in general was relaxed and controlled enough that triplets could happen.
As to the variety of triplets, I agree with Michael there too. From three-note jig patterns to the crunchiest scratch triplet, there's a gradation of how much you move different parts of your arm/hand/fingers, and how much bow you might use. And ultimately, the point is to be able to do things with long bows and short bows, up and down or down and up, with a lot of bow speed or almost none at all, and everything in between. This goes for triplets as well as everything else. Then, when you gravitate toward a particular approach to whatever sound you're trying to create, it'll be the approach that works for you, at that moment in time.
I'd definitely recommend listening closely to how good fiddlers do triplets, and listen again. Let that sound guide you. It may even help some people to use the slow speed settings in Windows Media Player or other slow downer software to listen to samples of triplets at half speed, to really hear the separation of notes and their relative timing, and how these things differ from one fiddler to the next.
It's not just the hair, Will. Remember the gratuitous eye flutter as well -- you know, the one where the piper throws back the hair and then sort of flutters their half-closed eyes. I believe that was what was causing the real swooning, wasn't it?
yes ... but ... don't tighten your bow, or load it with rosin just so you can do your triplets. Pay more attention to the broader performance of you bowing. The triplets CAN be done with a loose and un-rosined bow, but a decent tone cannot be got by a too tight, over rosined bow.
No, it's not about the resin or hair tension. Anything within the "normal" (who knows what that means?) range for both will work fine for doing bowed triplets.
In short, there are no equipment or techincal short cuts here. Just a lot of listening, absorbing, relaxing, and playing. Playful perseverance is the way....
LOL, a 60 minute DVD just on bowed triplets. Come to think of it, you could probably fill 3 hours, what with explaining two-pitch (B/B/A) and three-pitch (c/B/A) triplets and string crossing triplets besides all the varieties mentioned above.
Trouble with triplets.
Trouble with triplets.
I'm having trouble playing bowed triplets up to speed. It's getting very frustrating. Could anyone suggest some tips or even tunes to learn that would help in getting better at them?
# Posted on January 11th 2006 by Penfold
Re: Trouble with triplets.
1) Don't force it, it's the light touch that does it.
2) Decide whether you want to bow down-up-down (the most common) or up-down-up and stick with that pattern for the next few years.
3) Try to slur the last note of the triplet onto the next note.
4) Try both scratchy triplets ('the Tommy Peoples kind' ) and more relaxed ones where you still can hear the separate notes.
5) Be patient, this usually takes time.
Dinkie' s is a good reel to use loads of triplets.
good luck, hope this helps.
# Posted on January 11th 2006 by Henk Bos
Re: Trouble with triplets.
Don't use them where they aren't comfortable. You might be able to use a roll or just sustain the note instead.
# Posted on January 11th 2006 by LastToFinish
Re: Trouble with triplets.
Henk Bos has made some great suggestions. I agree with most. ( My only difference would be that I would slur into the triplet instead of out of it.) I would also say that the most important thing to have to do triplets would be a very flexible wrist as the triplet action is achieved by the flick of your wrist. In my opinion that would be the most important way to get your triplets up to speed. Practice looking at yourself in the mirror and if your shoulder or arm from the shoulder to the elbow is moving that would be what's holding you back. Good Luck and I hope this helps!!
# Posted on January 11th 2006 by fiddlefamily
Re: Trouble with triplets.
Henk's points are good (particularly 2,4, and 5). I would add:
1) use your wrist, not your arm.
2) hold the bow firmly, but not too tightly.
3) Bite down on the first of the triplets a bit more than the others
but most importantly:
4) Play pairs of a triplet and a long note: DAAH dig-a-ta DAAH dig-a-ta, ( "D2 (3DDD D2 (3DDD" for ABC-saavy folks). Do this over and over again for 10 minutes a day--starting slowly, and when it gets easier, do it faster.
Once you get that exercise down, add another long note to the mix: "DAAH DAAH dig-a-ta DAAH DAAH-dig-a-ta" (or "D2 D2 (3DDD D2 D2 (3DDD" in ABC, again). This is tricky, since you will need to either do the triplets in both directions (which is hard and uncommon) or stop the bow and continue it in the same direction either before or after the triplet (which is much more popular).
Be aware that if your triplets seem to work in some places and not others, it's very likely because you are trying to do the triplet in either an unfamiliar direction, an awkward location (bottom or top of the bow) or both...
# Posted on January 11th 2006 by Georgi
Re: Trouble with triplets.
We've now had so many discussions on bowed triplets that I cannot (shock, horror) point to any one or two discussions! All of them have brought up different things about them that have been very helpful. I'd suggest doing a search using "bowed triplets" to start with, and don't be afraid to go back in time to the earlier threads, as Will especially has posted some really good stuff back in the mists of time.
But you're not going to go far wrong with what's here already. (Hi George!)
# Posted on January 11th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Trouble with triplets.
I think of it less as a flick of the wrist than a tiny jiggle of the index finger. As Brian Conway says, keep the motion as close to the stick as possible--in other words, using your whole forearm or wrist to do the triplet will result in a large, hard-to-control motion. For crisp, tight triplets (of either the percussive "cat sneeze" kind or the more open, distinct note kind), the motion really is limited to the index and thumb.
The bow strokes leading into and out of a triplet are also very important, but it's useful to be able to do slurs *or* separate bow strokes in either case.
Best for now to concentrate on the triplet itself. If your melodic triplets in hornpipes are sloppy, work on tightening those up before you spend too much time on more percussive triplets. Learn the Belfast Hornpipe and use separate bow strokes for every triplet in the C part. Focus on using as little arm and wrist as possible, letting the fingers do the up and down motion.
Then begin to work on percussive triplets by drawing a long up bow, then down-up-down. Think "small" rather than "fast." Getting your triplets to sound good isn't about quickness (even though that's what it might sound like when listening to others) so much as it is about making the motion microscopic.
One image that helped me was to feel the index finger "unweighting" off the first down bow, which lets the bow almost bounce into the up bow. Also, many Irish fiddlers release all fingers on the stick except the index and thumb when doing triplets--a sign of how relaxed and light your touch on the bow needs to be. It's also a matter of physics--if you lift your pinky off the stick and let that side of the hand rise a good ways, you're lining the mass of your hand up over the balance point of where the index meets the thumb. So instead of spreading that hand mass out over the usual 3 inches or so of stick, it's now concentrated over a spot less than half an inch long. You've essentially brought the fulcrum of your hand from a wide base to a sharp point, making the lever of the bow less stable. But this frees the bow up to change direction quickly and in tiny increments, letting the triplet motion happen much more easily.
In short, the goal here is triplets that sound (and feel) smooth and effortless. And yes, it takes most people many months to do this, and years more to gain real control and consistency with it. So be patient with yourself and keep playing with it.
# Posted on January 11th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Trouble with triplets.
I’ve never done a decent bowed triplet and after I learned to do rolls and crannish things, I quit trying. But I think I’ll take inspiration from this discussion and give it another go.
A question, though: I’ve watched Frankie F. Gavin a lot and he definitely uses lots of arm in his triplets. Is he such a brilliant outlier that we should ignore that, or is it a practicable approach for some of us normal humans?
# Posted on January 11th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Trouble with triplets.
Bob, I've never seen Frankie play close up, so I don't know how he does his triplets. But every other ace fiddler I've seen does bowed triplets with such small movements--almost imperceptible. The clincher was Eileen Ivers--she has it down to a micro-tic of the index finger, invisible even from 5 feet away, and what amazing control of the timing and clarity of each note she has!
I suffered through a prolonged apprenticeship on triplets, for ages thinking of the motion as "stopping the forearm and letting the wrist bounce." You can imagine the results I got with that. For years, I could play only harsh, crunchy triplets, and most of the time the individual notes were mushed together. If these were cat sneeze triplets, it was a mangey old lion with a bad head cold.
Then I went through a phase of relaxing the arm and doing all the work with the wrist. Much better, but still not as crisp as what I was hearing good fiddlers do. It's really only been in the last 6 years that I've lasered in on the index and thumb, and learned to really loosen up. And I'll probably always have to work on being able to consistently do them well, though most days I'm able to do them as well as I hear them in my head. In fact, they're one of the few things I consider a "strength" in my playing (which may say more about the rest of my technique than it does about my triplets, lol).
Two specifc exercises helped me.
First, I learned to let go of the bow by playign while it freely dangled from my index and thumb. Any other finger that touched the stick was totally limp and had no influence on the stick. By exaggerating a relaxed hold this way, I found how little "hold" is really needed to control the bow. Whenever my triplets gunk up, I release my hand toward "the dangle" and the crispness comes right back.
Second, I did up and down bows using only my thumb and index finger to move the stick. Short little bow strokes in the middle of the hair, made with a motion that looks like I'm picking a wooden match stick up off the table without moving my hand. Do that for 2-3 minutes, and do it every day for three weeks, and your bow control will improve immensely.
Then it's just a minor matter of coordinating all of that into your larger bow motions, while playing tunes. Easy peasy. Hah.
# Posted on January 11th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Trouble with triplets.
I can’t think of anybody else I’ve seen use that much arm movement. Maybe Aly Bain? Not knowing any better, that’s the way I tried to learn it many years ago, before I’d seen a real Irish fiddler. It never sounded better than crap and always tensed up my arm.
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Trouble with triplets.
The other thing to keep in mind is that some performers do extraneous stuff for visual effect--there was a running joke here for a time about the piper's seductive hair toss.
But now that you mention it, I do recall Aly Bain giving a bit more oomph to his hand for triplets. Some people have total noodle wrists, andevery change in bow direction is like putting the bobble head in motion. But the fiddlers who can really crack nice triplets all seem to whittle the motion down to the smallest and "closest to the stick" possible.
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Trouble with triplets.
Will's descriptions, as ever, have me going: do I do that? yeah, actually, and I never thought about it. But there's such a variety of bowed triplets available, from smooth back to back multiples in hornpipes that are really just slides/fast jigs, to the percussive "shake" right on the beat in a reel, that there are many ways to do them.
Me? And I'm not saying this necessarily helps. Only that the way I've always approached it is to really hear it first. And then the technique just kind of sorts itself out, without effort. I know this is an anathema to Will's approach and I'm not saying it will work for everyone. It's just that sometimes, when you really really try to nail something that is such a tiny movement/sound/thing, you can just get lost in trying and that maybe not trying will fix it.
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Trouble with triplets.
Actually, I was going to say something along the same lines. because I'm not convinced that good clean bowed triplets are something you can slow down and pick apart and reassemble into the genuine article again. I can certainly write about them that way, but the actual journey to doing them strikes me as more organic. In my case, they started working when my bowing in general was relaxed and controlled enough that triplets could happen.
As to the variety of triplets, I agree with Michael there too. From three-note jig patterns to the crunchiest scratch triplet, there's a gradation of how much you move different parts of your arm/hand/fingers, and how much bow you might use. And ultimately, the point is to be able to do things with long bows and short bows, up and down or down and up, with a lot of bow speed or almost none at all, and everything in between. This goes for triplets as well as everything else. Then, when you gravitate toward a particular approach to whatever sound you're trying to create, it'll be the approach that works for you, at that moment in time.
I'd definitely recommend listening closely to how good fiddlers do triplets, and listen again. Let that sound guide you. It may even help some people to use the slow speed settings in Windows Media Player or other slow downer software to listen to samples of triplets at half speed, to really hear the separation of notes and their relative timing, and how these things differ from one fiddler to the next.
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Trouble with triplets.
It's not just the hair, Will. Remember the gratuitous eye flutter as well -- you know, the one where the piper throws back the hair and then sort of flutters their half-closed eyes. I believe that was what was causing the real swooning, wasn't it?
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Trouble with triplets.
The trouble with triplets is that you can't breast-feed them all at once......
Sorry, wrong discussion.
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Trouble with triplets.
AND it means there's always one that has to wait to be changed, Pete...
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Trouble with triplets.
Thanks everyone! Really appreciate the help. Would the amount of rosin on your bow or the amount the bow is tightened/slackened help in anyway?
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by Penfold
Re: Trouble with triplets.
yes ... but ... don't tighten your bow, or load it with rosin just so you can do your triplets. Pay more attention to the broader performance of you bowing. The triplets CAN be done with a loose and un-rosined bow, but a decent tone cannot be got by a too tight, over rosined bow.
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Trouble with triplets.
No, it's not about the resin or hair tension. Anything within the "normal" (who knows what that means?) range for both will work fine for doing bowed triplets.
In short, there are no equipment or techincal short cuts here. Just a lot of listening, absorbing, relaxing, and playing. Playful perseverance is the way....
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Trouble with triplets.
Lookathat...Michael's got me spelling like 'im now.
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Trouble with triplets.
... but only whan you agree with me eh?
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Trouble with triplets.
Will, if you would make an instructional video on just the bowed triplet, I would buy it.
Seriously.
Carol
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by carolsviolin
Re: Trouble with triplets.
LOL, a 60 minute DVD just on bowed triplets. Come to think of it, you could probably fill 3 hours, what with explaining two-pitch (B/B/A) and three-pitch (c/B/A) triplets and string crossing triplets besides all the varieties mentioned above.
Bit limited audience though, eh?
*Yikes! I really am starting to echo Michael!*
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Trouble with triplets.
Yikes! I knew about three-pitch triplets, but string-crossing triplets? It's worse than I thought.
OK, maybe a lesson or class instead of a DVD.
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by carolsviolin
Re: Trouble with triplets.
Yeah, those 3-string triplets are tricky.
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by John Gillard
Re: Trouble with triplets.
But nothing compared to a triplet on four strings....
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Trouble with triplets.
# Posted on January 13th 2006 by John Gillard
Re: Trouble with triplets.
I'm feeling faint . . . .
# Posted on January 14th 2006 by carolsviolin