I am part of a ceili band that recently learned the jig St. Patick's Day that goes with the set dance of the same name. Now I would like play it for dancing, but I'm having trouble fitting the music to the dance directions that I have. The music has an 8 bar A section repeated, and a 14 bar B section repeated. (The B section consists of a 6 bar phrase and an 8 bar phrase.) According to the description of the St. Patrick's Day set dance I downloaded from the internet, the dance starts with a 16 bar figure, followed by the Body figure consisting of 8, 6, 8, 6, 16, 6 and 14 bars (=64 in total). The sequence of Figure (16 bars) and Body (64 bars) repeats several times.
The tune, as arranged seems to fit the dance sequence until you get to the last 6 and 14 bar sequence of the Body figure. This could be accommodated by playing the B music 1 and 1/2 times through (since the B music includes a 6 bar section and an 8 bar section). But does anyone actually know if this is how it is meant to be played for dancing?
Re: Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
You say "set dance" -- do you mean for the traditional set for a stepdancer, or do you mean for set dancing with a set of eight people? Your description sounds more like a set dance, not the traditional set. The tune I'm assuming you're using is this one: http://thesession.org/tunes/display.php/385
If it's for stepdancers, you play the A three times through (once for an intro, one for the right foot and one for the left) and then it'll depend on who you're playing for -- ask if they want the set (the B part) for both right and left foot or just for the right. If the dancer is young or inexperienced or just clueless, they may not know and you'll have to watch to see if they want the B twice through or only once. For competition, they'll only want the B once through.
But for a ceili/figure dance/set dance, I've no idea.
Just a tidbit that won't make any difference to you -- but thought I'd put it in for general edification.
The A part is for the Step of the set dance -- the part that a dancer would either do extempore or learn an actual step for. This part of their dance can change at will of the dancer, technically, although at competitions there's a certain step that is required.
The B part is for the Set of the dance -- the part that's "set". The dancer would dance the Step of the dance and then do the Set, and then do another Step, and then repeat the Set, do another Step, and then repeat the Set, until the dancer was too out of breath to continue.
For competition these days, the judges and musicians would like to go home at a reasonable time of day, so they only compete with one full Step and the 'right foot' of the Set. Some teachers require that their students learn to be able to dance the left foot of the Set as well, most don't. (You'll sometimes hear dancers refuse to dance by saying, "I've only got the right foot", at which point it's gracious to stop asking them to dance.) So much so that some dancers don't even realize that there IS a left foot to their Set.
I believe that ALL of the traditional set dances in the curriculum of An Coimisiun have a great many steps available, most passed down from dance master to dance teacher, but most modern stepdancers only know one step to their traditional sets, which is rather a shame. For sure, i know that St. Pat's and Blackbird have about a jillion known and historical steps to them. Olive Hurley teaches some of them on her Step by Step videos.
Re: Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
For clarification, I'm referring to the set dance for 4 couples. (I didn't know that step dancing could also be referred to as traditional set dancing - confusing.) The tune I'm using is the one you refer to Zina. So I'm still looking for advice from people who have played for the 4 couple set dance.
As an aside, this business of competitive dancing is foreign to me and it certainly seems strange that dancers would only learn half a dance. I'm more oriented to less demanding but more sociable forms of dancing.
Re: Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
Well, most of us find things strange that which we don't understand -- one has to do what suits.
Yes, it's confusing with the same phrases meaning different things. You get used to it after a while, once you've been around Irish music and dancing long enough.
Stepdancers dance a group of particular dances known as traditional sets, because they are "set" to that particular tune and don't change -- the traditional sets (Blackbird, St. Patrick's Day, The White Blanket, Job of Journeywork, Garden of Daisies, etc.) are danced pretty much the same all the world over, much like we play Irish tunes much the same all the world over.
The stepdancers also dance a group of non-traditional sets, which are danced to a specific group of tunes known as set dances, many of which are crooked, and many of which are considered the province these days of uilleann pipers who appear to like that sort of thing.
As for competitive dance being foreign to you, I assume therefore that you are not Irish, danceall, because they have been holding competitions in both music and dance for longer than many civilizations have had histories.
It doesn't sound to me like a set dance that you're looking for, either, because (in my limited experience, as I'm not a set dancer -- anybody want to correct me there?) set dances don't generally have a body to the set, they have figures all in a row to different kinds of tunes (reel, polka, hornpipe, jig) without repeating back to a figure. On the other hand, set dances are regularly invented by the dancers, although some of course go back a fair piece, at least to the 1800's. Don't know if any survived from before that.
Sounds more like a ceili dance. Figure, body, second figure, body, etc. Anybody?
Re: Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
Aha -- I got curious -- Yes, it's a ceili dance, I believe it must be in the Ar Rinci Foirne, so I went to my cd collection, found the Olive Hurley CD with the tune for the dance on it...and the CD is not in the case. Sorry. Anybody else got the Olive Hurley CD with the music for the ceili dances, NOT the ones for Step By Step?
Re: Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
We worked this dance out for a step dancer once, who had learned a dance that fit this music, but all I have is a general recollection is that it wasn't your traditional one time through the A part as an intro, two As and two Bs, not to mention that there is a part that doesn't fit the standard 8/16 bar structure.
That is the trouble with the aural tradition, it relies on memory, and in my case that memory is feeble.
Re: Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
Yeah, the ironic thing is that I have the Olive Hurley video tape, and if our VHS player hadn't self-destructed over Christmas holidays, I could just slam it in and figure this out in five minutes or less...
Re: Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
Thanks for the insights -- no I'm Canadian and got into Irish dancing via international folk dancing (Bulgarian, Israeli etc.). We've been trying to get Irish set dancing started here in Winnipeg for a couple of years with periodic help from teachers from other places.
Re: Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
This discussion took place two years ago but can somebody help me on the different variations of the 4 couple set dance of St. Patrick's Day? There seem to be at least two versions circulating. Olive Hurley and Tom Quinn use one but that's apparently not the Dublin version accepted by An Coimisiun.
Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
I am part of a ceili band that recently learned the jig St. Patick's Day that goes with the set dance of the same name. Now I would like play it for dancing, but I'm having trouble fitting the music to the dance directions that I have. The music has an 8 bar A section repeated, and a 14 bar B section repeated. (The B section consists of a 6 bar phrase and an 8 bar phrase.) According to the description of the St. Patrick's Day set dance I downloaded from the internet, the dance starts with a 16 bar figure, followed by the Body figure consisting of 8, 6, 8, 6, 16, 6 and 14 bars (=64 in total). The sequence of Figure (16 bars) and Body (64 bars) repeats several times.
The tune, as arranged seems to fit the dance sequence until you get to the last 6 and 14 bar sequence of the Body figure. This could be accommodated by playing the B music 1 and 1/2 times through (since the B music includes a 6 bar section and an 8 bar section). But does anyone actually know if this is how it is meant to be played for dancing?
# Posted on January 8th 2006 by danceall
Re: Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
You say "set dance" -- do you mean for the traditional set for a stepdancer, or do you mean for set dancing with a set of eight people? Your description sounds more like a set dance, not the traditional set. The tune I'm assuming you're using is this one: http://thesession.org/tunes/display.php/385
If it's for stepdancers, you play the A three times through (once for an intro, one for the right foot and one for the left) and then it'll depend on who you're playing for -- ask if they want the set (the B part) for both right and left foot or just for the right. If the dancer is young or inexperienced or just clueless, they may not know and you'll have to watch to see if they want the B twice through or only once. For competition, they'll only want the B once through.
But for a ceili/figure dance/set dance, I've no idea.
HTH!
# Posted on January 8th 2006 by Zina Lee
BTW
Just a tidbit that won't make any difference to you -- but thought I'd put it in for general edification.
The A part is for the Step of the set dance -- the part that a dancer would either do extempore or learn an actual step for. This part of their dance can change at will of the dancer, technically, although at competitions there's a certain step that is required.
The B part is for the Set of the dance -- the part that's "set". The dancer would dance the Step of the dance and then do the Set, and then do another Step, and then repeat the Set, do another Step, and then repeat the Set, until the dancer was too out of breath to continue.
For competition these days, the judges and musicians would like to go home at a reasonable time of day, so they only compete with one full Step and the 'right foot' of the Set. Some teachers require that their students learn to be able to dance the left foot of the Set as well, most don't. (You'll sometimes hear dancers refuse to dance by saying, "I've only got the right foot", at which point it's gracious to stop asking them to dance.) So much so that some dancers don't even realize that there IS a left foot to their Set.
I believe that ALL of the traditional set dances in the curriculum of An Coimisiun have a great many steps available, most passed down from dance master to dance teacher, but most modern stepdancers only know one step to their traditional sets, which is rather a shame. For sure, i know that St. Pat's and Blackbird have about a jillion known and historical steps to them. Olive Hurley teaches some of them on her Step by Step videos.
# Posted on January 9th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
so, the A part is really 3 times through; the B, X times?? So is that why I CAN NEVER GET the B part??
# Posted on January 9th 2006 by I_Fel
Re: Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
Well, I dunno, is that why, Fel? *smirk* yes, 3 X through the A, then either 1X or 2X through the B.
# Posted on January 9th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
For clarification, I'm referring to the set dance for 4 couples. (I didn't know that step dancing could also be referred to as traditional set dancing - confusing.) The tune I'm using is the one you refer to Zina. So I'm still looking for advice from people who have played for the 4 couple set dance.
As an aside, this business of competitive dancing is foreign to me and it certainly seems strange that dancers would only learn half a dance. I'm more oriented to less demanding but more sociable forms of dancing.
# Posted on January 9th 2006 by danceall
Re: Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
Well, most of us find things strange that which we don't understand -- one has to do what suits.
Yes, it's confusing with the same phrases meaning different things. You get used to it after a while, once you've been around Irish music and dancing long enough.
Stepdancers dance a group of particular dances known as traditional sets, because they are "set" to that particular tune and don't change -- the traditional sets (Blackbird, St. Patrick's Day, The White Blanket, Job of Journeywork, Garden of Daisies, etc.) are danced pretty much the same all the world over, much like we play Irish tunes much the same all the world over.
The stepdancers also dance a group of non-traditional sets, which are danced to a specific group of tunes known as set dances, many of which are crooked, and many of which are considered the province these days of uilleann pipers who appear to like that sort of thing.
As for competitive dance being foreign to you, I assume therefore that you are not Irish, danceall, because they have been holding competitions in both music and dance for longer than many civilizations have had histories.
It doesn't sound to me like a set dance that you're looking for, either, because (in my limited experience, as I'm not a set dancer -- anybody want to correct me there?) set dances don't generally have a body to the set, they have figures all in a row to different kinds of tunes (reel, polka, hornpipe, jig) without repeating back to a figure. On the other hand, set dances are regularly invented by the dancers, although some of course go back a fair piece, at least to the 1800's. Don't know if any survived from before that.
Sounds more like a ceili dance. Figure, body, second figure, body, etc. Anybody?
# Posted on January 9th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
Aha -- I got curious -- Yes, it's a ceili dance, I believe it must be in the Ar Rinci Foirne, so I went to my cd collection, found the Olive Hurley CD with the tune for the dance on it...and the CD is not in the case. Sorry. Anybody else got the Olive Hurley CD with the music for the ceili dances, NOT the ones for Step By Step?
# Posted on January 9th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
We worked this dance out for a step dancer once, who had learned a dance that fit this music, but all I have is a general recollection is that it wasn't your traditional one time through the A part as an intro, two As and two Bs, not to mention that there is a part that doesn't fit the standard 8/16 bar structure.
That is the trouble with the aural tradition, it relies on memory, and in my case that memory is feeble.
# Posted on January 9th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
Yeah, the ironic thing is that I have the Olive Hurley video tape, and if our VHS player hadn't self-destructed over Christmas holidays, I could just slam it in and figure this out in five minutes or less...
# Posted on January 9th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
Thanks for the insights -- no I'm Canadian and got into Irish dancing via international folk dancing (Bulgarian, Israeli etc.). We've been trying to get Irish set dancing started here in Winnipeg for a couple of years with periodic help from teachers from other places.
# Posted on January 9th 2006 by danceall
Re: Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
Oooo, bring in Patrick O'Dea. He's a wonderful teacher!
# Posted on January 9th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
Where would we find him?
# Posted on January 9th 2006 by danceall
Re: Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
Try the addresses at http://www.setdancingnews.net/news/ic.lp#O
# Posted on January 9th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
Thanks.
# Posted on January 9th 2006 by danceall
Re: Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
The ceili dance IS in An Rince Foirne....
# Posted on January 29th 2006 by Ceolagusrince
Re: Arrangement of St Patricks Day jig for dancing?
This discussion took place two years ago but can somebody help me on the different variations of the 4 couple set dance of St. Patrick's Day? There seem to be at least two versions circulating. Olive Hurley and Tom Quinn use one but that's apparently not the Dublin version accepted by An Coimisiun.
# Posted on April 24th 2008 by C. Nicolas