First of all, I know there have been discussions about ITM & jazz before, and I've read them, but haven't really found an answer to my questions. The discussions quickly switched to technical babbling about modes and scales, which I know nothing about.
It has appeared to me that a large portion of the ITM musicians likes jazz, or jazzy influences in ITM. Not a day goes by on this discussion forum where there is no mention of 'jazzy influences', where comparisons with jazz are made or where the music is simply mentioned. I can see the similarities between jazz and ITM - at least the way they are played: by the regular people for the regular people, music to both dance and listen to, where everyone is welcome to play along as long as they sticks to certain rules and etiquete; etc.
But so far for the similarities, imho. The music itself seems rather the complete opposite of ITM. Irish Traditional tunes are very simple, have a predetermined structure, with a typical but fairly easily distinguishable rhythm, with repeated parts and played a few times through, so the melodies are easily distinguishable. Everyone plays the same melody line. etc etc.
Whereas in jazz, the melody is very difficult to discern, if it even exists. When I listen to jazz, all I hear are incoherent notes. OK, there is easy, more predictable jazz, but most of the music just doesn't sound like music to me. I mostly just sit and wonder - like Al Brown said in a previous topic - 'where the hell is the melody ?'. On a sidenote; I have the same feeling when listening to complex classical music. Random, incoherent notes which don't trigger any emotion or which don't 'feel' like music at all.
So I wonder, how can people who like ITM - 100% melodic music, also like jazz - where the melody doesn't even always seem to exist ?
Does the music trigger the same emotions ?
Are there any other ITM lovers who can't hear jazz or am I the only one ?
Is it possible that I will come to appreciate jazz in time ?
PS: I hope I didn't step on anyone's toes and won't be flamed for this. I just needed to get this off of my shoulders, I've been wondering this for ages.
I was a jazz pianist before taking up ITM, and the Irish tunes caught my interest for many of the same reasons jazz did. All though jazz is very different, there are a lot of similarities, some of which you have pointed out. I'll speak about instrumental music since that's where I find the similarities.
One of the main things is that both genres feature a common body of material. Each piece is open to interpretation, but there's a lot of emphasis on style. ITM tunes aren't as elaborate as jazz tunes and go by much faster. The musician is never expected to wander very far, and the music is expanded by other tunes in medley. Jazz, on the other hand, is very different in that the musician is expected to reinvent the melody in the development section within the context of solos.
The enjoyment of jazz is all about hearing the melody stated at the beginning, and then following the musician as he guides you through new ways to hear it only to return in the end. The ITM musician tries to state the melody as clearly and with as much style as possible, but they don't reinvent it... well, maybe a little.
Often when I'm in the car on route to a session I listen to the jazz station here in SF and actually find inspiration for the ITM tunes soon to be played. Even though they are so different, I still hear what they have in common. It's instrumental music with a lot of thought behind it, but still comes from the heart and can be played casually anywhere... even in pubs.
Maybe the fact that I played jazz for so many years is the reason I see these similarities and love jazz as well. I do know a lot of ITM musicians who just seem to hear random notes. I think they just haven’t figured out how to follow it is all.
I remember when Indian classical music first showed up in my hippy days and we all would go into a trance or fall asleep listening to it. (great to smoke pot or take acid to) It’s true that we were enjoying it, but we clearly didn’t seem to be following it as Indian people would. I would read about concerts in India that went on for days, and even though I liked it very much, I couldn’t imagine how people could sit through it for that amount of time. I would go to concerts of Indian music here in SF and notice that myself and the other yanks tended to go into a trance, but the Indian people in the audience, (usually in the front) would yell out at times and even jump to their feet… weird.
Then a girlfriend of mine who had gone off to India to study tabla returned and showed me how to count the intricate rhythm with my hands and fingers, and how to follow the music. Suddenly I found it enthralling to listen to the interplay between musicians and how they tease and try to fake each other out -- and the audience. It became a beautiful musical sporting event of sorts that got my heart pumping. Suddenly I was yelling out and even jumping to my feet… weird.
Vince, you may need to listen to trad jazz. It sounds from your comments as though you're listening entirely to modern stuff, which is much more formless than pre-bebop jazz is. I can't stand much of anything post-50s myself, and I don't love a lot of what was done instrumentally during the 50s (vocalists are another matter) but I'm a die-hard fan of trad jazz from before and during the war. (The modern stuff --- and I know I may get my tuchus crisped for saying this --- reminds me irresistably of the old slap about rock guitarists and their endless, er, self-stimulative solos.)
Get your hands on some 1920s and 1930s music --- Louis Armstrong's Hot Fives and Hot Sevens come instantly to mind, but there are lots and lots and LOTS of others --- and you may suddenly realize that there's jazz and then there's *jazz*. Although it is in many ways musically very different from ITM, I think if you listen to some trad jazz you'll see the similarities between it and ITM. Trad jazz usually has a fairly defined melody, there's a definite rhythm (a lot of it was dance music, after all), the tune (to misquote Mark Twain) arrives somewhere and achieves something instead of achieving nothing and arriving in mid-air, and it has noticeable vocabularies of phrases and technical twists that are replicated in different ways from tune to tune.
The only emotion the sort of jazz you describe triggers in me is irritation --- but give me some 30s jazz and I'm as much in heaven as when listening to my favorite ITM or STM musicians. It's another world compared to endless noodling sax solos.
I should clarify the period of jazz I'm referring to. I agree with what Sara says about modern jazz except I would expand what I preferred to include be-bop -- the period of jazz I played.
Firstly, PB (Jack) - I thought your post was interesting. I know next to nothing about music from the Indian subcontinent apart from what I've heard in Indian restaurants and Indian movies. And the fact that they play quarter tones so the melodies all sounds "slidey". I may not understand it but it still beats Britney, Beyonce or Kylie any day. At least it still sounds Indo-European and "folky"!
Vince, ditto, maybe you've looked on threads that refer to contemporary bands and players. D'you mind if we straighten some things out?
Although Irish music is quite rigidly predetermined in that part A follows part B, etc., and a jig is 6/8 a reel 4/4, and the melody requirements can vary from, eg how "Scottish" can you play the "Barmaid" to how "bluegrass"can "The Maid Behind the Bar" be made to sound (same tune of course) etc, all the way to playing Ed Reavey or Charlie Lennon hornpipes almost note for note...but within those "guidelines" the individual accomplished player has enormous scope for personal expression. For example, just listen to a few renditions of the two John McKenna reels, Col. Rogers/The Happy Days of Youth played on the flute by Frankie Gavin, then Seamus Tansey, then Mick Mulvey. Although all three players are great flute players, my vote will always go to Mulvey, as he lifts the tunes, shakes out what every one else did, then starts again with allof his own beautiful little turns. Jazz? If you say so. Genius more like.
Depends on the 'jazz' you're talking about, it's way too broad of a genre to put a generic title over. It goes from Django to Herbie Hancock & everything in between. At any rate, about "Irish melodies being basic" I guess they are often labeled as basic because they are diatonic - but does that make them less complex than a chromatic melody? Maybe if you have a diatonic instrument where accidentals are difficult, but outside of that I don't think so. After playing Irish music for years, I've learned the art of learning somewhat quickly by ear, which is a great tool, too often people who play jazz & classical tend to overthink it & rely on theory & the written note. One time I was at an audition for a jazz band, while they where diddlefarting with fakebooks & throwing all kinds of theory jargon around, they were getting a little perplexed at my asking for them to shut up & just play the melodies, they couldn't believe I could pick up the 8 bar melody by the second time through. Something that I think any half-decent musician of any genre should be able to do. On the other side of the coin sometimes I wish that some Irish musicians would let loose & jam a little bit more, I'm not talking about half hour long, hap-hazard, Grateful Dead style jams, but a few variations other than the ones slavishly taken off of someone elses record would be nice. I love it when I hear a fresh little twist, whether it be just some different lead-in notes or a flatted third/sixth here & there. Things a jazz musician would do & also things that more creative Irish players do & have done - at least as long back as recordings have been around.
On the whole I'll take ITM over jazz, but there's definitely good jazz too
Anyway let me get directly to your questions:
"So I wonder, how can people who like ITM - 100% melodic music, also like jazz - where the melody doesn't even always seem to exist?"
No, because, for me, it's too zen, Akin to the most bonehead of all phrases "Listen to the notes they're not playing"
"Does the music trigger the same emotions?"
It can, depending on the musician, but music makes eveyone react differently at different times.
"Are there any other ITM lovers who can't hear jazz or am I the only one?"
You're probably not alone
"Is it possible that I will come to appreciate jazz in time ?"
Hell yeah, if you dig in & get your hands on some quality stuff.
I agree with everything Mad Baloney and sara g said.
My own experience with jazz is playing tuba in a 20 piece orchestra. The director had somehow come across original printed versions of scores from about 1925 - 1928, the Golden Age of Jazz - the Gershwins, Berlin, Jelly Roll Morton - I can't begin to remember all of it. But I remember the feeling of playing the music and watching people dance to it. What great evenings we had in old Ballrooms with people who knew how to dance to these tunes, all of us dressed in 20's get-up. And not at all unlike great evenings of playing for sets. I guess in that sense, jazz triggers a similar emotion, which is related to people listening and dancing to the music.
Your question made me think about the kind of modern jazz I like. Its mostly saxophone players with one or, at most, two others. Solo piano is good, but I don't go looking for electric guitar, trumpet, or other instruments playing modern jazz. Even fiddle.
"I wish that some Irish musicians would let loose & jam a little bit more [...] Things a jazz musician would do & also things that more creative Irish players do & have done"
In my opinion the ITM musician who does that the best is Cormac Breathnach. He has the ability to reinvent the melody like a jazz musician would but maintain a strong sense of the ITM style. The best example is the recording he made with jazz guitarist, Martin Dunlea, called "Whistle and Guitar." Iv'e heard other recordings by some brilliant players attempt to do the same, but I think Cormac's the only one who really suceeded.
I think it's all about Instrumental liberation! Both (jazz taken in the traditional pre-1960's context) rely on both adherence to form and interrpretation. Jazz tunes state the melody (subject to the interpretation of the player) and then use the form (chord structure) as a clean white canvas upon which to paint new tunes (interpretations based upon zillions of theoretical, intellectual and emotional criteria as experienced in the moment). ITM tunes state the melody (subject to the interpretation of the player) and adhere to the form (in this case the melodic structure) as a clean white canvas upon which to revisit the tune with zillions of emotional and intellectual criteria as experienced in the moment. And you thought you were just playing the tunes! You dig?
All very good stuff, people. But Vince, you should note sara g's advice. 'Jazz' goes in as many directions and means as many things to different people as does'folk'. I happen to like all of it, from start to finish; but you should get some examples from the beginning of the twentieth century. You will probably find something in your local library, including videos. Then follow the branches towards blues, Dixieland, and farther. I would be surprised if you could not identify with some of it.
I;ve been lucky enough to play in a few sessions with a pianist doing distinctly jazz-like vamping. Very, very much fun. One tune that always struck me more as Jazz than a garden variety Irish tune was the Butterfly. It would sound great on a sax. . . (One of the few pieces of music in ANY genre that would.) COme to think of it, minor slip jigs all kinda have that funky feel to them.
The modern player who comes closest to a jazz feel in her compositions and playing, to the extent that I've heard them, is Emer Mayock.
Jazz is like anything else - there's the easily accessible stuff at one end, the complete out-there random noodling of interest only to the performer at the other, and then the interesting stuff somewhere in the middle of that spectrum.
Thanks all for the wonderful posts. All very interesting, I've really learned a lot. You made me discover this 'older' jazz music, and surprisingly I did like it (although in a 'funny' way, I doubt I'll ever really love it). I didn't know jazz could be so melodic and rhytmic. I can now better understand why people who like ITM also like Jazz.
However, I still doubt I'll ever like the jazzy influences in ITM (like that vamping piano accompanyment), but that's another story.
Thanks again for the replies, my questions are answered, but feel free to keep adding interesting content, anecdotes etc for future reference !
Then one could ask how come so many jazz musicians like ITM?
Someone said (and i paraphrase loosely ):
All music is playing the same tune ( and what long tune it is )however the different genres are just at different parts of the melody.
the original quote is much better!
It should be noted that ITM is a music that borrows melodies and turns (from Scottish, Welsh and others and vice versa of course )and has the tendency to expand to the abilities and needs of the performer.
Jazz does these things too. So that would be one of the answers to the question that I phrased to start off with.
Musical genres as categorized by typical music stores, radio stations etc are such vast structures that I can't understand how anyone can give such a sweeping statement as, for example, "I like Jazz". Like filling in a questionnaire and ticking a box?
I like some Hoagy Carmichael, I like some John Coltrane. But I'd never say I like Jazz.
I love most of Mozart (except the opera) but I can only stand a certain way playing it. Would I say I liked classical? No way. Some one would put on some dreary Brahms or something and I'd be tearing my hair out.
Just as I always say I hate folk music. Can't stand it. OK so there is a very small proportion of the sub category diddley that I consider to be some of my favorite music of all time, but say you like folk, and some one would unwittingly torture me with some hideous Eliza Carthy or some such abomination.
What you say is probably true, when you come to think about it. Mostly, I'd say that I like folk music but when I actually consider the various sub genres and performers etc that I actively enjoy listening then this is in the minority too. There's even parts of Irish music(I'm sure you'll agree) which we enjoy better than others.
Dick Gaughan once said that the criteria wasn't even a just a simple case of music being either "good or bad" but simply whether you liked it or not. So, categories, boxes etc aren't really that important.
Actually, I like a lot of Eliza Carthy's stuff but certainly not all of it. At the other extreme, there's even some Bothy Band(not many, I admit) tracks I don't enjoy. I know you feel the same, Micheal. You've even admitted it once or twice before.
I studied jazz at uni but mainly cos there are no trad courses in Melbourne! (Where I'm from) But there's always been a cross over between the two scenes down here. I don't know if that's cos the music scene is pretty tiny generally here or if there is some empathy between the two genres. I have found that the two complement each other well in my own playing and I have used what I learnt from my jazz course in my trad playing.
(G'day sneetch, I'm from Melbourne-abouts too but the only courses I've done there are Flemington & Moonee Valley. There's a a crossover between them and ITM too if you talk to some of the older musicians)
Cool, I did the course at VCA- it was mega jazzy but heaps of my lecturers were really into the fact that I played trad and especially how it showed in my compositions.
Maybe some people, despite their love of traditional music, find its conservatism too stifling, and rather than trying to flout the rules, they turn to other forms of music, e.g jazz, for relief.
I grew up exposed to more Jazz than ITM, but like with ITM, prefer the "roots" stuff to the new stuff. As has been pointed out above, the further back you go, the more you find the common threads to each.
How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
First of all, I know there have been discussions about ITM & jazz before, and I've read them, but haven't really found an answer to my questions. The discussions quickly switched to technical babbling about modes and scales, which I know nothing about.
It has appeared to me that a large portion of the ITM musicians likes jazz, or jazzy influences in ITM. Not a day goes by on this discussion forum where there is no mention of 'jazzy influences', where comparisons with jazz are made or where the music is simply mentioned. I can see the similarities between jazz and ITM - at least the way they are played: by the regular people for the regular people, music to both dance and listen to, where everyone is welcome to play along as long as they sticks to certain rules and etiquete; etc.
But so far for the similarities, imho. The music itself seems rather the complete opposite of ITM. Irish Traditional tunes are very simple, have a predetermined structure, with a typical but fairly easily distinguishable rhythm, with repeated parts and played a few times through, so the melodies are easily distinguishable. Everyone plays the same melody line. etc etc.
Whereas in jazz, the melody is very difficult to discern, if it even exists. When I listen to jazz, all I hear are incoherent notes. OK, there is easy, more predictable jazz, but most of the music just doesn't sound like music to me. I mostly just sit and wonder - like Al Brown said in a previous topic - 'where the hell is the melody ?'. On a sidenote; I have the same feeling when listening to complex classical music. Random, incoherent notes which don't trigger any emotion or which don't 'feel' like music at all.
So I wonder, how can people who like ITM - 100% melodic music, also like jazz - where the melody doesn't even always seem to exist ?
Does the music trigger the same emotions ?
Are there any other ITM lovers who can't hear jazz or am I the only one ?
Is it possible that I will come to appreciate jazz in time ?
PS: I hope I didn't step on anyone's toes and won't be flamed for this. I just needed to get this off of my shoulders, I've been wondering this for ages.
Vince
# Posted on January 7th 2006 by BD-
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
I was a jazz pianist before taking up ITM, and the Irish tunes caught my interest for many of the same reasons jazz did. All though jazz is very different, there are a lot of similarities, some of which you have pointed out. I'll speak about instrumental music since that's where I find the similarities.
One of the main things is that both genres feature a common body of material. Each piece is open to interpretation, but there's a lot of emphasis on style. ITM tunes aren't as elaborate as jazz tunes and go by much faster. The musician is never expected to wander very far, and the music is expanded by other tunes in medley. Jazz, on the other hand, is very different in that the musician is expected to reinvent the melody in the development section within the context of solos.
The enjoyment of jazz is all about hearing the melody stated at the beginning, and then following the musician as he guides you through new ways to hear it only to return in the end. The ITM musician tries to state the melody as clearly and with as much style as possible, but they don't reinvent it... well, maybe a little.
Often when I'm in the car on route to a session I listen to the jazz station here in SF and actually find inspiration for the ITM tunes soon to be played. Even though they are so different, I still hear what they have in common. It's instrumental music with a lot of thought behind it, but still comes from the heart and can be played casually anywhere... even in pubs.
Maybe the fact that I played jazz for so many years is the reason I see these similarities and love jazz as well. I do know a lot of ITM musicians who just seem to hear random notes. I think they just haven’t figured out how to follow it is all.
I remember when Indian classical music first showed up in my hippy days and we all would go into a trance or fall asleep listening to it. (great to smoke pot or take acid to) It’s true that we were enjoying it, but we clearly didn’t seem to be following it as Indian people would. I would read about concerts in India that went on for days, and even though I liked it very much, I couldn’t imagine how people could sit through it for that amount of time. I would go to concerts of Indian music here in SF and notice that myself and the other yanks tended to go into a trance, but the Indian people in the audience, (usually in the front) would yell out at times and even jump to their feet… weird.
Then a girlfriend of mine who had gone off to India to study tabla returned and showed me how to count the intricate rhythm with my hands and fingers, and how to follow the music. Suddenly I found it enthralling to listen to the interplay between musicians and how they tease and try to fake each other out -- and the audience. It became a beautiful musical sporting event of sorts that got my heart pumping. Suddenly I was yelling out and even jumping to my feet… weird.
# Posted on January 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
Vince, you may need to listen to trad jazz. It sounds from your comments as though you're listening entirely to modern stuff, which is much more formless than pre-bebop jazz is. I can't stand much of anything post-50s myself, and I don't love a lot of what was done instrumentally during the 50s (vocalists are another matter) but I'm a die-hard fan of trad jazz from before and during the war. (The modern stuff --- and I know I may get my tuchus crisped for saying this --- reminds me irresistably of the old slap about rock guitarists and their endless, er, self-stimulative solos.)
Get your hands on some 1920s and 1930s music --- Louis Armstrong's Hot Fives and Hot Sevens come instantly to mind, but there are lots and lots and LOTS of others --- and you may suddenly realize that there's jazz and then there's *jazz*. Although it is in many ways musically very different from ITM, I think if you listen to some trad jazz you'll see the similarities between it and ITM. Trad jazz usually has a fairly defined melody, there's a definite rhythm (a lot of it was dance music, after all), the tune (to misquote Mark Twain) arrives somewhere and achieves something instead of achieving nothing and arriving in mid-air, and it has noticeable vocabularies of phrases and technical twists that are replicated in different ways from tune to tune.
The only emotion the sort of jazz you describe triggers in me is irritation --- but give me some 30s jazz and I'm as much in heaven as when listening to my favorite ITM or STM musicians. It's another world compared to endless noodling sax solos.
# Posted on January 7th 2006 by sara g
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
i actualy don't prefer listening to jazz. not my cup of tea...i can listen ti http://www.lieireland.com all day and night though.
ravyn
# Posted on January 7th 2006 by Ravyn
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
I should clarify the period of jazz I'm referring to. I agree with what Sara says about modern jazz except I would expand what I preferred to include be-bop -- the period of jazz I played.
# Posted on January 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
Firstly, PB (Jack) - I thought your post was interesting. I know next to nothing about music from the Indian subcontinent apart from what I've heard in Indian restaurants and Indian movies. And the fact that they play quarter tones so the melodies all sounds "slidey". I may not understand it but it still beats Britney, Beyonce or Kylie any day. At least it still sounds Indo-European and "folky"!
Vince, ditto, maybe you've looked on threads that refer to contemporary bands and players. D'you mind if we straighten some things out?
Although Irish music is quite rigidly predetermined in that part A follows part B, etc., and a jig is 6/8 a reel 4/4, and the melody requirements can vary from, eg how "Scottish" can you play the "Barmaid" to how "bluegrass"can "The Maid Behind the Bar" be made to sound (same tune of course) etc, all the way to playing Ed Reavey or Charlie Lennon hornpipes almost note for note...but within those "guidelines" the individual accomplished player has enormous scope for personal expression. For example, just listen to a few renditions of the two John McKenna reels, Col. Rogers/The Happy Days of Youth played on the flute by Frankie Gavin, then Seamus Tansey, then Mick Mulvey. Although all three players are great flute players, my vote will always go to Mulvey, as he lifts the tunes, shakes out what every one else did, then starts again with allof his own beautiful little turns. Jazz? If you say so. Genius more like.
# Posted on January 7th 2006 by danny flute whistle box
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
Depends on the 'jazz' you're talking about, it's way too broad of a genre to put a generic title over. It goes from Django to Herbie Hancock & everything in between. At any rate, about "Irish melodies being basic" I guess they are often labeled as basic because they are diatonic - but does that make them less complex than a chromatic melody? Maybe if you have a diatonic instrument where accidentals are difficult, but outside of that I don't think so. After playing Irish music for years, I've learned the art of learning somewhat quickly by ear, which is a great tool, too often people who play jazz & classical tend to overthink it & rely on theory & the written note. One time I was at an audition for a jazz band, while they where diddlefarting with fakebooks & throwing all kinds of theory jargon around, they were getting a little perplexed at my asking for them to shut up & just play the melodies, they couldn't believe I could pick up the 8 bar melody by the second time through. Something that I think any half-decent musician of any genre should be able to do. On the other side of the coin sometimes I wish that some Irish musicians would let loose & jam a little bit more, I'm not talking about half hour long, hap-hazard, Grateful Dead style jams, but a few variations other than the ones slavishly taken off of someone elses record would be nice. I love it when I hear a fresh little twist, whether it be just some different lead-in notes or a flatted third/sixth here & there. Things a jazz musician would do & also things that more creative Irish players do & have done - at least as long back as recordings have been around.
On the whole I'll take ITM over jazz, but there's definitely good jazz too
Anyway let me get directly to your questions:
"So I wonder, how can people who like ITM - 100% melodic music, also like jazz - where the melody doesn't even always seem to exist?"
No, because, for me, it's too zen, Akin to the most bonehead of all phrases "Listen to the notes they're not playing"
"Does the music trigger the same emotions?"
It can, depending on the musician, but music makes eveyone react differently at different times.
"Are there any other ITM lovers who can't hear jazz or am I the only one?"
You're probably not alone
"Is it possible that I will come to appreciate jazz in time ?"
Hell yeah, if you dig in & get your hands on some quality stuff.
# Posted on January 7th 2006 by Brad Maloney
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
I agree with everything Mad Baloney and sara g said.
My own experience with jazz is playing tuba in a 20 piece orchestra. The director had somehow come across original printed versions of scores from about 1925 - 1928, the Golden Age of Jazz - the Gershwins, Berlin, Jelly Roll Morton - I can't begin to remember all of it. But I remember the feeling of playing the music and watching people dance to it. What great evenings we had in old Ballrooms with people who knew how to dance to these tunes, all of us dressed in 20's get-up. And not at all unlike great evenings of playing for sets. I guess in that sense, jazz triggers a similar emotion, which is related to people listening and dancing to the music.
Your question made me think about the kind of modern jazz I like. Its mostly saxophone players with one or, at most, two others. Solo piano is good, but I don't go looking for electric guitar, trumpet, or other instruments playing modern jazz. Even fiddle.
# Posted on January 7th 2006 by tacoman
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
"I wish that some Irish musicians would let loose & jam a little bit more [...] Things a jazz musician would do & also things that more creative Irish players do & have done"
In my opinion the ITM musician who does that the best is Cormac Breathnach. He has the ability to reinvent the melody like a jazz musician would but maintain a strong sense of the ITM style. The best example is the recording he made with jazz guitarist, Martin Dunlea, called "Whistle and Guitar." Iv'e heard other recordings by some brilliant players attempt to do the same, but I think Cormac's the only one who really suceeded.
# Posted on January 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
I think it's all about Instrumental liberation! Both (jazz taken in the traditional pre-1960's context) rely on both adherence to form and interrpretation. Jazz tunes state the melody (subject to the interpretation of the player) and then use the form (chord structure) as a clean white canvas upon which to paint new tunes (interpretations based upon zillions of theoretical, intellectual and emotional criteria as experienced in the moment). ITM tunes state the melody (subject to the interpretation of the player) and adhere to the form (in this case the melodic structure) as a clean white canvas upon which to revisit the tune with zillions of emotional and intellectual criteria as experienced in the moment. And you thought you were just playing the tunes! You dig?
# Posted on January 7th 2006 by drone
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
All very good stuff, people. But Vince, you should note sara g's advice. 'Jazz' goes in as many directions and means as many things to different people as does'folk'. I happen to like all of it, from start to finish; but you should get some examples from the beginning of the twentieth century. You will probably find something in your local library, including videos. Then follow the branches towards blues, Dixieland, and farther. I would be surprised if you could not identify with some of it.
# Posted on January 7th 2006 by oldstrings
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
ps don't rush it. Just soak.
# Posted on January 7th 2006 by oldstrings
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
I like the golden age,especially Joe Venuti.
# Posted on January 8th 2006 by dafydd
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
Did anyone else who watched Ken Burn's documentary on jazz notice the dixieland jazz version of the Sally Garden reel?
# Posted on January 8th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
I;ve been lucky enough to play in a few sessions with a pianist doing distinctly jazz-like vamping. Very, very much fun. One tune that always struck me more as Jazz than a garden variety Irish tune was the Butterfly. It would sound great on a sax. . . (One of the few pieces of music in ANY genre that would.) COme to think of it, minor slip jigs all kinda have that funky feel to them.
The modern player who comes closest to a jazz feel in her compositions and playing, to the extent that I've heard them, is Emer Mayock.
Jazz is like anything else - there's the easily accessible stuff at one end, the complete out-there random noodling of interest only to the performer at the other, and then the interesting stuff somewhere in the middle of that spectrum.
# Posted on January 8th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
Thanks all for the wonderful posts. All very interesting, I've really learned a lot. You made me discover this 'older' jazz music, and surprisingly I did like it (although in a 'funny' way, I doubt I'll ever really love it). I didn't know jazz could be so melodic and rhytmic. I can now better understand why people who like ITM also like Jazz.
However, I still doubt I'll ever like the jazzy influences in ITM (like that vamping piano accompanyment), but that's another story.
Thanks again for the replies, my questions are answered, but feel free to keep adding interesting content, anecdotes etc for future reference !
Vince
# Posted on January 8th 2006 by BD-
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
Back in the earlier 20th century there was also a very prominent jazz *harpist*. . . the link goes deeper.
# Posted on January 8th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
Then one could ask how come so many jazz musicians like ITM?
Someone said (and i paraphrase loosely ):
All music is playing the same tune ( and what long tune it is )however the different genres are just at different parts of the melody.
the original quote is much better!
It should be noted that ITM is a music that borrows melodies and turns (from Scottish, Welsh and others and vice versa of course )and has the tendency to expand to the abilities and needs of the performer.
Jazz does these things too. So that would be one of the answers to the question that I phrased to start off with.
# Posted on January 9th 2006 by red_tiger
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
Musical genres as categorized by typical music stores, radio stations etc are such vast structures that I can't understand how anyone can give such a sweeping statement as, for example, "I like Jazz". Like filling in a questionnaire and ticking a box?
I like some Hoagy Carmichael, I like some John Coltrane. But I'd never say I like Jazz.
I love most of Mozart (except the opera) but I can only stand a certain way playing it. Would I say I liked classical? No way. Some one would put on some dreary Brahms or something and I'd be tearing my hair out.
Just as I always say I hate folk music. Can't stand it. OK so there is a very small proportion of the sub category diddley that I consider to be some of my favorite music of all time, but say you like folk, and some one would unwittingly torture me with some hideous Eliza Carthy or some such abomination.
# Posted on January 9th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
What you say is probably true, when you come to think about it. Mostly, I'd say that I like folk music but when I actually consider the various sub genres and performers etc that I actively enjoy listening then this is in the minority too. There's even parts of Irish music(I'm sure you'll agree) which we enjoy better than others.
Dick Gaughan once said that the criteria wasn't even a just a simple case of music being either "good or bad" but simply whether you liked it or not. So, categories, boxes etc aren't really that important.
Actually, I like a lot of Eliza Carthy's stuff but certainly not all of it. At the other extreme, there's even some Bothy Band(not many, I admit) tracks I don't enjoy. I know you feel the same, Micheal. You've even admitted it once or twice before.
# Posted on January 9th 2006 by John J Returns
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
I studied jazz at uni but mainly cos there are no trad courses in Melbourne! (Where I'm from) But there's always been a cross over between the two scenes down here. I don't know if that's cos the music scene is pretty tiny generally here or if there is some empathy between the two genres. I have found that the two complement each other well in my own playing and I have used what I learnt from my jazz course in my trad playing.
# Posted on January 9th 2006 by sneetch
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
See, that's why - they've done a course in it!
(G'day sneetch, I'm from Melbourne-abouts too but the only courses I've done there are Flemington & Moonee Valley. There's a a crossover between them and ITM too if you talk to some of the older musicians)
# Posted on January 9th 2006 by Bren
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
Cool, I did the course at VCA- it was mega jazzy but heaps of my lecturers were really into the fact that I played trad and especially how it showed in my compositions.
# Posted on January 9th 2006 by sneetch
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
Maybe some people, despite their love of traditional music, find its conservatism too stifling, and rather than trying to flout the rules, they turn to other forms of music, e.g jazz, for relief.
# Posted on January 9th 2006 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: How come so many ITM musicians like jazz ?
I grew up exposed to more Jazz than ITM, but like with ITM, prefer the "roots" stuff to the new stuff. As has been pointed out above, the further back you go, the more you find the common threads to each.
# Posted on January 9th 2006 by AlBrown