Hey, kids... we all know you're ITM freaks, but do you play in other musical styles as well? If so, does it bring anything to your ITM game?
I play jazz guitar; and that background allows for creation of interesting (yet largely diatonic) voicings that support melody lines without disrupting them (according to me - a hardly objective source).
I play in a band called Fiddlin' Around (www.fiddlinaround.net) and we merge into 'celtic contra'. We mostly play for contra-dances (as danced in USA and UK) and whatever we play, we try and bring in a good swinging rhythm.
Our line up is two fiddles, guitar and bass - so whilst, generally, I hold down the tune, the other fiddler Brian Stone improvises, adds a second part and often breaks away to add jazz style imrovisations on top of the basic celtic / american tune. This is complemted by a great driving rhythm section.
Well, I'm quite confident in suggesting that most of us here are not all ITM freaks. Besides appreciating other genres of music, many of us will play other forms of traditional music too(though many will claim it to be Irish ). It's not all of us who get the opportunity(and we might not all wish to ) to participate in a "full blown" Irish session. Most of the better players don't really mind where a good tune comes from...... So, I'd say that I was a TM freak rather than an ITM freak.
I'm not sure if this is what you're getting at though, Greg. I think you're talking about whether it's desirable to play Irish music in a different style as opposed to playing other styles of traditional music.
A loaded subject..... I'm Irish but didn't get involved in ITM until my late teens, when I had already learned guitar, playing rock, folk, blues and pop. I like to think that a background in other types of music can help, for example a lot of heavy metal chords are modal and were in fact derived from folk music by the like of Jimmy Page. However it is easy to overstrep the mark when bringing in other influences, and things can then go rapidly downhill.
Because of my self-taught experience on guitar, I don't think I will ever play like a "traditional" guitar player (whatever that is) - as in the DADGAD-loving soul who faithfully reproduces the accompaniment from the latest hot trad CD (no matter what tune is being played!!!...) I try to understand the tune and emphasise nuances of rhythm or melody where I can, while maintaining the basic thread of the tune. I tend to take some risks but am surrounded by musicians who are so used to me that they no longer complain. In fact I think most of them like what I do - there's nothing better than getting the "nod" from an ITMusician that you respect, it still works for me every time.
A word of caution for jazz-lovers - as jazz is heavily based on accidentals, some of the chops don't always translate well to an ITM setting. Bill Whelan was a trailblazer in this area at one stage, and he learned how to keep this area in check to the benefit of all. A Bbdim9 with a flattened fifth may not always be the lost chord for the Mason's Apron.
But the chords that I originally learned as part of "Paranoid" by Black Sabbath are still used on everything from "Dr. Gilberts" to "Ride On" to "The Strayaway Child". Ozzy (or more corrctly Tony Iommi) really has a lot to answer for.
I play all sorts of music with different groups. Everything from Irish, Russian and Ukranian trad to Klezmer and Choro.
That which doesn't kill me makes me a better player.
Yep we're moving definitively to Kendal in Cumbria (North west UK, Lake District National Park) next Wednesday.
10 years in London, just beginning to realise how much I'm going to miss it/everybody but I hope a better all round life beckons, 'specially for the kids.
No, playing other genres is a distraction from my own development as a piper. Which is fine, anyway, the pipes are very suited to ITM but not necessarily to other genres.
I do enjoy listening to non-ITM genres on a regular basis.
Hi Bob Tracey - I bought your cd about 2 or 3 years ago. I love your version of Dinkey's - also love the opening tune King's Jig. I play it on the fiddle with my husband on guitar as he loves the reggae beat that goes with it. (He's Scot of Irish descent but hates ITM with a passion).
Other than ITM I play in a Bluegrass band.
I would love to be able to play some Hungarian stuff however, but that's so hard.
The sessions around my neck of the woods are mostly held in Irish pubs, and we stay mostly true to those who give us libations, but we do slip in an occasional Scot, Canadian, or American song or tune into the mix. Also, like lysaghtm I am a self-taught guitarist who played other stuff before falling into the session thing, so I bring other influences to the table even when I am playing ITM. But I am already condemned by true ITMers because I play guitar, so what the heck.
Does a barn-dance band count as non-ITM? Mine probably does, with all the other musos quite capable of improvising a tune till it no longer resembles the original.
Also jam in acoustic sessions, and play and sing english/scots/american songs in clubs. I always reckon listening to Emmylou Harris, the McGarrigles, Dick Gaughan, and Fairport makes you eclectic Also living on the same road as the actual Fairport, the house where they convened.
I like to use drones and double stops to punctuate a tune,when playing solo, probably a little too much for pure drop, influenced by a bluegrass/old timey background. Played mandolin for years before taking up the fiddle, and often think in terms of mando chord shapes in selecting those harmony notes. I think of “1” (first finger, say the “B” note on the A string), as being on the 2nd “fret”, which requires some mental gymnastics when someone is telling me what notes to play – like if someone says,. “1st string, low 2” to say “g”.
I use vibrato on quarter notes frequently, as well, though that’s not influenced by any classical training – I do it partly to hide any intonation problems but mostly because I think it sounds good, it sweeten a note. And right there, you can tell I didn‘t grow up in a bothy. I grew up as part of a non-trad, modern pop culture, so to a certain degree, I think the tunes I like, or sounds I think are cool are certainly influenced by this. Consciously or not, we’re all affected by our environment.
I’ve dabbled in lots of genres over the eons, but I can’t really say that I bring any of it into ITM. More like the other way around, if anything. Actually, as I think about it, I’d say I have a pretty strong tendency to keep the styles “pure”. Or at least to try. It’s not a philosophical position, just a tendency.
I suppose having played a good bit of classical guitar affects the way I handle an Irish tune on guitar, but that’s more technical than stylistic. Maybe the Martin Carthy influence shows up.
Right now I pretty much only play ITM. But I come from a long classical background (somke 22 years of playing clarinet, and some other instruments, and have degrees in music), so that will always be with me in some way.
Simon, I'm so sad that you're leaving London! Well, I suppose this means that I'll have to get out to the Lake District now to visit with you, next time I'm in England. Hell, I'll bring half of London out with me, or at least the Horsheens if I can manage it. Weekend trip to Simon's place, everybody! I know they're going to miss you something fierce. Good luck with the move!
Why? For many years it was either a different style of music or none at all if I wanted to play with others on a regular basis. Now fortnightly I play in a little orchestra (nine of us plus leader who is a pro). I enjoy the stuff we play and the company. Last not least it makes me work on different aspects of good musicianship - like not only to start a note "on the dot" but to finish very precisely as well. Or to work with dynamics which is not only volume. I'll never be more than a mediocre fiddle player but I hope to improve as an all-rounder.
I've just start singing an informal jazz class. At the moment I'm taking more from the traditional to the jazz than the other way round. I tend to decorate round the tune rather than the way the jaz z improvisation and scatting works. I am largely an unaccompanied singer and it is interesting to contrast my approach to music to those who have been steeped in jazz but got into singing from the karaoke side of things.
I would anticipate what I would take back to the traditional side will be the fact that I have had to listen the musicians more to see where things fit in and I am improving my relationship with the microphone. Then there is the issue of being a performer rather than the singer.
I think you do have to be careful how one genre affects the other and its is possible that you can't do both to the level you might like. I know classically trained singers who have problems sounding as they want to in the tradition and similarly fiddlers who have unlearned a classical training. Shouldn't be to much of a problem for me as the jazz style that I do like. - 20s/30s vocal jazz/blues styles - Gershwin etc are not far removed from the tune.
No. I also play fiddle in an English session once a week or fortnight, and play cello in two orchestras (symphony and chamber), and occasionally for light opera on an ad hoc basis.
Allows you to create your own "radio station" by locating similar music to an artist/song that you type in. Trad database doesn't seem to be too big however lots of folkie stuff and perhaps request for particular artists (e.g. Bothy Band) will prompt some movement. I tried Joni Mitchell and it worked fine.
Conan (excuse the missing fada),
You may have just destroyed 20 years of listening to the king of rock n'roll in one sentence - if I go home tonight and detect the merest hint of 'mild syncopation' on 'Walk On Hot Coals' live, there'll be trouble.....
(It did make me laugh out loud though....)
Incidentally, to answer Greg B, Gallagher was my introduction to DADGAD tuning - so I suppose it's a good thing to mix it up in what you play/listen to then.
(And I love Kristin Hersh too.)
Very rarely - actually I think it was only on "Out on the Western Plain" - if you ever see him doing it on Live at the Cork Opera House, I guarantee you'll be 'mildly' entertained.....
i am slowly getting into playing choro, which is from brazil. i have a friend from brazil who plays percussion, who is teaching me how to play.
if you've never heard it, its got a jazz kind of feel, without the soloes and the jazz music theory. it developed out of african music and european music, like jazz. the scales and chords are more traditional, but the syncopations are all there. main instruments are tambourine (special type, forget what its called. my friend clarice can pull some crazy sounds out of that little drum!), guitar, cavaquinho (small guitar), flute, clarinet and some other bigger guitar with an extra string.
I play American traditional music and Scottish traditional music as well as Irish traditional music. I find that switching around keeps you fresher than playing any one style of music all of the time, even if they are closely related.
All ITM - all the time?
All ITM - all the time?
Hey, kids... we all know you're ITM freaks, but do you play in other musical styles as well? If so, does it bring anything to your ITM game?
I play jazz guitar; and that background allows for creation of interesting (yet largely diatonic) voicings that support melody lines without disrupting them (according to me - a hardly objective source).
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by drone
Re: All ITM - all the time?
Hi Greg.
I play in a band called Fiddlin' Around (www.fiddlinaround.net) and we merge into 'celtic contra'. We mostly play for contra-dances (as danced in USA and UK) and whatever we play, we try and bring in a good swinging rhythm.
Our line up is two fiddles, guitar and bass - so whilst, generally, I hold down the tune, the other fiddler Brian Stone improvises, adds a second part and often breaks away to add jazz style imrovisations on top of the basic celtic / american tune. This is complemted by a great driving rhythm section.
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by Bob Tracey
Re: All ITM - all the time?
Well, I'm quite confident in suggesting that most of us here are not all ITM freaks. Besides appreciating other genres of music, many of us will play other forms of traditional music too(though many will claim it to be Irish
). It's not all of us who get the opportunity(and we might not all wish to ) to participate in a "full blown" Irish session. Most of the better players don't really mind where a good tune comes from...... So, I'd say that I was a TM freak rather than an ITM freak. 
I'm not sure if this is what you're getting at though, Greg. I think you're talking about whether it's desirable to play Irish music in a different style as opposed to playing other styles of traditional music.
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by Johannes J
Re: All ITM - all the time?
I play as much ETM as ITM, if not more, which drives my whistle playing fiance crazy as many ETM tunes sound crap on a tin whistle, apparently.
ETM sounds great on a fiddle though - the tunes are usually much simpler melodies than ITM, which allows for more individual, ahem, interpretation.
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by Martin Milner
Re: All ITM - all the time?
All other forms of music are influenced my the DEVIL.
Join the Cult of ITM, or risk being burned in eternal hell fire!!!
;)
Now, who said we were freaks????
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by Jonathan Roche
Re: All ITM - all the time?
A loaded subject..... I'm Irish but didn't get involved in ITM until my late teens, when I had already learned guitar, playing rock, folk, blues and pop. I like to think that a background in other types of music can help, for example a lot of heavy metal chords are modal and were in fact derived from folk music by the like of Jimmy Page. However it is easy to overstrep the mark when bringing in other influences, and things can then go rapidly downhill.
Because of my self-taught experience on guitar, I don't think I will ever play like a "traditional" guitar player (whatever that is) - as in the DADGAD-loving soul who faithfully reproduces the accompaniment from the latest hot trad CD (no matter what tune is being played!!!...) I try to understand the tune and emphasise nuances of rhythm or melody where I can, while maintaining the basic thread of the tune. I tend to take some risks but am surrounded by musicians who are so used to me that they no longer complain. In fact I think most of them like what I do - there's nothing better than getting the "nod" from an ITMusician that you respect, it still works for me every time.
A word of caution for jazz-lovers - as jazz is heavily based on accidentals, some of the chops don't always translate well to an ITM setting. Bill Whelan was a trailblazer in this area at one stage, and he learned how to keep this area in check to the benefit of all. A Bbdim9 with a flattened fifth may not always be the lost chord for the Mason's Apron.
But the chords that I originally learned as part of "Paranoid" by Black Sabbath are still used on everything from "Dr. Gilberts" to "Ride On" to "The Strayaway Child". Ozzy (or more corrctly Tony Iommi) really has a lot to answer for.
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by lysaghtm
Re: All ITM - all the time?
I listened to Ragga FM tonight on the way home, it was bloomin' marvellous. Just as well I'm leaving London I guess.
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by Leftheris
Re: All ITM - all the time?
I play all sorts of music with different groups. Everything from Irish, Russian and Ukranian trad to Klezmer and Choro.
That which doesn't kill me makes me a better player.
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by McMandolin
Re: All ITM - all the time?
Well, I'm going down the Blyth tonight, so nuhnuhs.
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by maxF
Re: All ITM - all the time?
Lefheris, WHAT? You're leaving London? What, like, for good? Or a day trip? errr.... WHAT?
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: All ITM - all the time?
Hi Zina.
Yep we're moving definitively to Kendal in Cumbria (North west UK, Lake District National Park) next Wednesday.
10 years in London, just beginning to realise how much I'm going to miss it/everybody but I hope a better all round life beckons, 'specially for the kids.
Simon.
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by Leftheris
Re: All ITM - all the time?
No, playing other genres is a distraction from my own development as a piper. Which is fine, anyway, the pipes are very suited to ITM but not necessarily to other genres.
I do enjoy listening to non-ITM genres on a regular basis.
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by Hanley
Re: All ITM - all the time?
Hi Bob Tracey - I bought your cd about 2 or 3 years ago. I love your version of Dinkey's - also love the opening tune King's Jig. I play it on the fiddle with my husband on guitar as he loves the reggae beat that goes with it. (He's Scot of Irish descent but hates ITM with a passion).
Other than ITM I play in a Bluegrass band.
I would love to be able to play some Hungarian stuff however, but that's so hard.
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by Cath
Re: All ITM - all the time?
The sessions around my neck of the woods are mostly held in Irish pubs, and we stay mostly true to those who give us libations, but we do slip in an occasional Scot, Canadian, or American song or tune into the mix. Also, like lysaghtm I am a self-taught guitarist who played other stuff before falling into the session thing, so I bring other influences to the table even when I am playing ITM. But I am already condemned by true ITMers because I play guitar, so what the heck.
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: All ITM - all the time?
Does a barn-dance band count as non-ITM? Mine probably does, with all the other musos quite capable of improvising a tune till it no longer resembles the original.
Also jam in acoustic sessions, and play and sing english/scots/american songs in clubs. I always reckon listening to Emmylou Harris, the McGarrigles, Dick Gaughan, and Fairport makes you eclectic Also living on the same road as the actual Fairport, the house where they convened.
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: All ITM - all the time?
I like to use drones and double stops to punctuate a tune,when playing solo, probably a little too much for pure drop, influenced by a bluegrass/old timey background. Played mandolin for years before taking up the fiddle, and often think in terms of mando chord shapes in selecting those harmony notes. I think of “1” (first finger, say the “B” note on the A string), as being on the 2nd “fret”, which requires some mental gymnastics when someone is telling me what notes to play – like if someone says,. “1st string, low 2” to say “g”.
I use vibrato on quarter notes frequently, as well, though that’s not influenced by any classical training – I do it partly to hide any intonation problems but mostly because I think it sounds good, it sweeten a note. And right there, you can tell I didn‘t grow up in a bothy. I grew up as part of a non-trad, modern pop culture, so to a certain degree, I think the tunes I like, or sounds I think are cool are certainly influenced by this. Consciously or not, we’re all affected by our environment.
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by fidkid
Re: All ITM - all the time?
I’ve dabbled in lots of genres over the eons, but I can’t really say that I bring any of it into ITM. More like the other way around, if anything. Actually, as I think about it, I’d say I have a pretty strong tendency to keep the styles “pure”. Or at least to try. It’s not a philosophical position, just a tendency.
I suppose having played a good bit of classical guitar affects the way I handle an Irish tune on guitar, but that’s more technical than stylistic. Maybe the Martin Carthy influence shows up.
# Posted on January 6th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: All ITM - all the time?
Right now I pretty much only play ITM. But I come from a long classical background (somke 22 years of playing clarinet, and some other instruments, and have degrees in music), so that will always be with me in some way.
# Posted on January 6th 2006 by Crysania
Re: All ITM - all the time?
No. WHY????????
# Posted on January 6th 2006 by cathrynb
Re: All ITM - all the time?
Last night I broke out my electric guitar and played along with some punk records.. . . it was great!
I;ve played renaissance instrumental music before, which is different from ITM in that it emphasizes harmonies, and would love to again.
# Posted on January 6th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: All ITM - all the time?
Simon, I'm so sad that you're leaving London! Well, I suppose this means that I'll have to get out to the Lake District now to visit with you, next time I'm in England. Hell, I'll bring half of London out with me, or at least the Horsheens if I can manage it. Weekend trip to Simon's place, everybody!
I know they're going to miss you something fierce. Good luck with the move!
Zina
# Posted on January 6th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: All ITM - all the time?
The lake district is beautiful, and there's lots of music there, and nice people too.
# Posted on January 6th 2006 by full measure
Re: All ITM - all the time?
Why? For many years it was either a different style of music or none at all if I wanted to play with others on a regular basis. Now fortnightly I play in a little orchestra (nine of us plus leader who is a pro). I enjoy the stuff we play and the company. Last not least it makes me work on different aspects of good musicianship - like not only to start a note "on the dot" but to finish very precisely as well. Or to work with dynamics which is not only volume. I'll never be more than a mediocre fiddle player but I hope to improve as an all-rounder.
# Posted on January 6th 2006 by kuec
Re: All ITM - all the time?
Interesting
I've just start singing an informal jazz class. At the moment I'm taking more from the traditional to the jazz than the other way round. I tend to decorate round the tune rather than the way the jaz z improvisation and scatting works. I am largely an unaccompanied singer and it is interesting to contrast my approach to music to those who have been steeped in jazz but got into singing from the karaoke side of things.
I would anticipate what I would take back to the traditional side will be the fact that I have had to listen the musicians more to see where things fit in and I am improving my relationship with the microphone. Then there is the issue of being a performer rather than the singer.
I think you do have to be careful how one genre affects the other and its is possible that you can't do both to the level you might like. I know classically trained singers who have problems sounding as they want to in the tradition and similarly fiddlers who have unlearned a classical training. Shouldn't be to much of a problem for me as the jazz style that I do like. - 20s/30s vocal jazz/blues styles - Gershwin etc are not far removed from the tune.
J
# Posted on January 6th 2006 by jfother
Re: All ITM - all the time?
No. I also play fiddle in an English session once a week or fortnight, and play cello in two orchestras (symphony and chamber), and occasionally for light opera on an ad hoc basis.
Trevor
# Posted on January 6th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: All ITM - all the time?
I am learning Galician "Muinheiras" (excuse spelling).
They are lovely and don't need to played to fast. I might play it at a session to see people's feedback.
# Posted on January 6th 2006 by flauta dolce
Re: [cliché] Variety is the spice of life
[I meant to say] The "Muinheira" dances are lovely and do not need to be played too fast.
# Posted on January 6th 2006 by flauta dolce
Re: All ITM - all the time?
Zina.
Thanks & of course you're very welcome anytime.
Full measure. Thanks, do you have any tips for music in the Lakes?
# Posted on January 6th 2006 by Leftheris
Check out this website:
http://www.pandora.com/
Allows you to create your own "radio station" by locating similar music to an artist/song that you type in. Trad database doesn't seem to be too big however lots of folkie stuff and perhaps request for particular artists (e.g. Bothy Band) will prompt some movement. I tried Joni Mitchell and it worked fine.
For those who don't listen to ITM all the time!
# Posted on January 6th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: All ITM - all the time?
Hey Conan!
When in Pandora.com, I typed Kristin Hersh.
It correct my spelling of the artist and it played a lovely track and replied the following,
"Based on what you've told us so far, we 're playing this track
because it features acoustic rock instrumentation, folk
influences, mild rythmic syncopation, chromatic harmonic
structure and meandering melodic phrasing".
Hilarious....hadn't thought of Kristin Hersh that way.
[ But got nothing for the Bothy band or Altan...]
# Posted on January 6th 2006 by flauta dolce
Re: All ITM - all the time?
Haha!
It's weird how it breaks down and classifies music.
Rory Gallagher: "features Blues-Rock qualities, mild syncopation, repetitive melodic phrasing, a vocal-centric aesthetic and major key tonality."
Er, yeah just what Rory was aiming for.
# Posted on January 6th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: All ITM - all the time?
BTW just tried Kristin Hersh - lovely voice. Reminiscent of Suzanne Vega/REM... Cheers!!
# Posted on January 6th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: All ITM - all the time?
Conan (excuse the missing fada),
You may have just destroyed 20 years of listening to the king of rock n'roll in one sentence - if I go home tonight and detect the merest hint of 'mild syncopation' on 'Walk On Hot Coals' live, there'll be trouble.....
(It did make me laugh out loud though....)
Incidentally, to answer Greg B, Gallagher was my introduction to DADGAD tuning - so I suppose it's a good thing to mix it up in what you play/listen to then.
(And I love Kristin Hersh too.)
# Posted on January 6th 2006 by hurleystick
Re: All ITM - all the time?
Sorry mate! All I can say is don't shoot the messenger! Mild is not a word I would have used to describe any aspect of Gallagher's music.
# Posted on January 7th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: All ITM - all the time?
Agreed, Conan - Clapton, yes; Gallagher probably never even used the word in his life - except to describe Cork summers, maybe. Good luck.
# Posted on January 7th 2006 by hurleystick
Re: All ITM - all the time?
Didn't know Gallagher played DADGAD by the way!
# Posted on January 7th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: All ITM - all the time?
Very rarely - actually I think it was only on "Out on the Western Plain" - if you ever see him doing it on Live at the Cork Opera House, I guarantee you'll be 'mildly' entertained.....
# Posted on January 7th 2006 by hurleystick
Re: All ITM - all the time?
I thank you mildly!
# Posted on January 7th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: All ITM - all the time?
i am slowly getting into playing choro, which is from brazil. i have a friend from brazil who plays percussion, who is teaching me how to play.
if you've never heard it, its got a jazz kind of feel, without the soloes and the jazz music theory. it developed out of african music and european music, like jazz. the scales and chords are more traditional, but the syncopations are all there. main instruments are tambourine (special type, forget what its called. my friend clarice can pull some crazy sounds out of that little drum!), guitar, cavaquinho (small guitar), flute, clarinet and some other bigger guitar with an extra string.
# Posted on January 7th 2006 by daiv
Re: All ITM - all the time?
I play American traditional music and Scottish traditional music as well as Irish traditional music. I find that switching around keeps you fresher than playing any one style of music all of the time, even if they are closely related.
# Posted on January 7th 2006 by CeolCairdeas