Other discussions on this board describe how some of us find the use of the fourth finger difficult. Many from classical backgrounds use it extensively to eliminate the open string sound. However, fiddlers still need it for rolls, to play B on the E string and, at times, to eliminate difficult or awkward bowing on the other strings. Most people I've watched are able to curl their fingers around the fingerboard so that their fingers strike the fingerboard at an almost 90 degree angle from the plane of the fingerboard.
My hand is not working that way. For some reason, I can't curl my fingers as much as others do. My hand does not turn toward the fingerboard as much as others I've watched. Also, my fourth finger extends straighter than most when used. This can result in bad intonation when playing with the fourth finger. It can make fourth finger rolls sound somewhat like slides instead of distinct notes being played in a roll.
Generally, my intonation is good except when employing that daggone fourth finger. My wife, who plays the violin, believes my hand is not as flexible as hers (she is able to curl the fingers like most others I've seen). Am I made differently? Is my hand position incorrect? What can I do to overcome this obstacle?
I've been trying to remember what my teacher taught me years ago when I took classical lessons. I stopped playing for many years when I took up guitar. Now I've returned to the fiddle (but don't play much violin). I don't think I had this problem many years ago. Does anyone else have this problem? Can anyone offer some suggestions to overcome it?
I broke my left little finger several times as a kid, and it's never worked right since, so I have some sympathy for you, FiddleCrazy.
Here's a handful of ideas that might help:
1. Rather than trying to curl your fingers over the fingerboard at a right angle to it, try letting your fingers face down the strings instead. When I play, my fingernails (especially the one on my index finger) are facing me more than they are facing across the strings. Lots of really good fiddlers play this way.
2. Experiment with different angles for holding the fiddle. For this one, you can work in 3-D--it may help to let the peghead end "sag" a bit, so it's lower than the chin rest end. Not too much, or your hand will have to work overtime just to hold everything up. Also try playing with the neck at different angles to your chest--everything from straight out at a right angle(almost like holding a rifle) to 45 degrees left, toward your left shoulder. Everyone's elbows are sewn together differently, and you may find one angle allows your forearm more freedom to twist, and thus turn your hand more toward the strings. Finally, try tilting the whole fiddle so that the e string side is slightly lower than the G string side, in other words, so that the fiddle doesn't face straight up at the ceiling, but more toward the corner where a wall to your right meets the ceiling. (If you use a shoulder rest, you'll want to lower the legs on the treble bout of the fiddle, raise the legs on the bass side, or both.) Some combination of all three angles may give you some relief from feeling like you're "over-reaching."
3. Do some fourth finger workouts--find a phrase or two that really uses the fourth finger (on the e string to start with) and play it over and over to build up strength, agility, and looseness in that finger. Something like the c part of Musical Priest. Don't overdo it, but work in 5 to 10 minutes of this each day and it will add up. When it gets easier, move the exercise over to the A string, then to the D, and finally to the G.
4. Do some warm ups and gentle stretches to help your forearm, wrist, and hand adapt to facing your palm out to the left. I haven't had much luck with this--my elbow tendons are shot from years of abuse (baseball, juggling, mountain biking, etc.), so I'm grateful for what little range of motion I have. Properly warming up the muscles and doing range-of-motion stretches at least helps me maintain, rather than losing ground.
5. Try lots of different fiddles. For years I played a decent fiddle that happened to have a club of a neck. I had no idea how stout this neck was--and why my hand always hurt--until I tried other fiddles and found that most of them had much more slender necks. That alone resolved a lot of the hand problems I was struggling with.
I also need to arch my left wrist, violin-style--I don't know how fiddlers who play with the left hand flat against the neck can reach all the notes (although Martin Hayes seems to manage).
On the other hand, since I got some lessons in Irish fiddling, I find I'm using the open E string a lot more--to do that "slurring across strings" thing--and it seems to be working pretty well. So I'm not using my fourth finger as much as I used to.
Oh, and Will is absolutely right about general stretching. I have had fewer hand (and wrist, and shoulder) troubles since I started swimming a couple times per week.
We're all built differently... maybe your wife (and many others) have a freakish hand. Will' right , though - the stretches will help. After two dislocations of my left littlefinger (90 degrees the wrong way), it locks up at the centre knuckle at the most inconvenient times, so I have the same problems as you... we soldier on as best we may...
Going along with what the other's are saying: Stretching is the way to go. Also the grip trainer is a good idea. Have you gone to a teacher and just asked, "Hey, take a look at this, and tell me what I'm doing wrong?" You could ask your wife, but that question tends to lead to all SORTS of off-the-wall comments. Then again, I'm sure that it'll get those same sort of comments HERE, so...
I've got a similar problem: When I was very young, I got a cut right near the end joint on my left pinky. If I hold up both hand fourth fingers side by side, you can see a DEFINITE inward slant to the left one. Has caused some problems, but stretching and general grip training has helped.
Good luck, and keep with it. If nothing else, you can just smile when folks look at your odd 4th, and shurg saying, "Well, God just put me together this way!"
Sounds like stretching and exercising are the key. I'll give it a try. I also found Will's comment about the shoulder rest interesting. I had not used a shoulder rest up until I took a renewed interest in the fiddle a few years ago. I had always gone without one. My first shoulder rest was a Kun imitation, with adjustable legs. Then I switched to a much more stable Comford rest. I like the Comford because it provides great stability and never slides. But you can't adjust it at all. That may have caused or exaggerated the problem.
I forgot to mention that i DO use the arched hand position Micray mentions. When I arch less, so the hand is closer to the neck, I can curl my fingers more. But, like Micray, I've never understood how you can play well in this position, to get distinct notes when playing a fast roll, for example.
So, I'll have my pinky stretching, doing sit-ups and squeezing tennis balls very soon. I'll also try out the old should rest for awhile and see if it makes a difference.
Just wanted to re-iterate how important the 4th finger excerises are.
Quite a few years ago I had trouble getting the little finger notes in tune, but after Paul O Shaughnessy took my fiddle class at the winter school I realised the possibilities that open up once you have full control of your 4th finger...It should be as strong as all your other fingers, and there's no reason (unless you have a specific medical problem, obviously) that it can't.
I did lots of stretching - try closing all your fingers together tightly and then moving just the 4th finger away from the others as far as it will go. Also try bending each finger in turn so that the fingertip touches as far down the base of your thumb as you can...after a few days it will start to improve your flexibility.
The best way to improve strength, though, is simply to use it more!! For example use it for all your rolls and triplets until it gets stronger.
There must be loads of other ways of doing this but that's just what I found to work...Good luck
I've mucked around for hours with chin and shoulder rests - made my own as well as used store-bought. I never feel comfortable curving my fingers around - maybe they'll bend on their own after a few years? My left middle seemed to bend after years of guitar playing.
I read that Cape Breton fiddlers would boogie around a lot while they were playing - not just getting into the spirit of the thing, they played unampilified 10 minute sets over and over, moving around was a way of keeping from getting stiff.
Try to use the TIPS of ALL fingers, and don't allow the fourth finger to curl up when not in use...or EVER!... Also keep forcing yourself to use the fourth as much as possible. Exercise exercise exercise. Hope this helps.
I was going to suggest light-heartedly that you do what I do every now and then, play viola till you feel sorry for yourself (and my viola would make you cry just looking at it), then, voila! (ho ho), go back to the violin and all your pinky problems have gone away ... but I see MG has beaten me to it.
I, too, had an issue with my 4th finger -- and posted a question on this site some months ago. Today, even with my short fingers, I can finally hit the difficult notes (e.g., F on the A string). For me, it was a matter of practice, practice, practice -- just never giving up. It took months. Something very important, though, was my elbow. For me, in order to get the tough 4th finger stretch notes, my elbow MUST move under to the right (toward me). I had to consciously work at this and move my elbow more when these notes came up. At first, these elbow moves would be jerky and sound very forced (because it was!). I really did think I was going to have to give up the violin because of this 4th finger issue, but my stubborness wouldn't let me. My elbow is now muscle trained to do this -- and sometimes I catch a glimpse of my elbow moving itself for these notes. It's cool how the brain can be trained!! But it takes a lot of time and effort. I sincerely wish you good luck.
Fiddle Fourth Finger Problem
Fiddle Fourth Finger Problem
Other discussions on this board describe how some of us find the use of the fourth finger difficult. Many from classical backgrounds use it extensively to eliminate the open string sound. However, fiddlers still need it for rolls, to play B on the E string and, at times, to eliminate difficult or awkward bowing on the other strings. Most people I've watched are able to curl their fingers around the fingerboard so that their fingers strike the fingerboard at an almost 90 degree angle from the plane of the fingerboard.
My hand is not working that way. For some reason, I can't curl my fingers as much as others do. My hand does not turn toward the fingerboard as much as others I've watched. Also, my fourth finger extends straighter than most when used. This can result in bad intonation when playing with the fourth finger. It can make fourth finger rolls sound somewhat like slides instead of distinct notes being played in a roll.
Generally, my intonation is good except when employing that daggone fourth finger. My wife, who plays the violin, believes my hand is not as flexible as hers (she is able to curl the fingers like most others I've seen). Am I made differently? Is my hand position incorrect? What can I do to overcome this obstacle?
I've been trying to remember what my teacher taught me years ago when I took classical lessons. I stopped playing for many years when I took up guitar. Now I've returned to the fiddle (but don't play much violin). I don't think I had this problem many years ago. Does anyone else have this problem? Can anyone offer some suggestions to overcome it?
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by FiddleCrazy
Re: Fiddle Fourth Finger Problem
I broke my left little finger several times as a kid, and it's never worked right since, so I have some sympathy for you, FiddleCrazy.
Here's a handful of ideas that might help:
1. Rather than trying to curl your fingers over the fingerboard at a right angle to it, try letting your fingers face down the strings instead. When I play, my fingernails (especially the one on my index finger) are facing me more than they are facing across the strings. Lots of really good fiddlers play this way.
2. Experiment with different angles for holding the fiddle. For this one, you can work in 3-D--it may help to let the peghead end "sag" a bit, so it's lower than the chin rest end. Not too much, or your hand will have to work overtime just to hold everything up. Also try playing with the neck at different angles to your chest--everything from straight out at a right angle(almost like holding a rifle) to 45 degrees left, toward your left shoulder. Everyone's elbows are sewn together differently, and you may find one angle allows your forearm more freedom to twist, and thus turn your hand more toward the strings. Finally, try tilting the whole fiddle so that the e string side is slightly lower than the G string side, in other words, so that the fiddle doesn't face straight up at the ceiling, but more toward the corner where a wall to your right meets the ceiling. (If you use a shoulder rest, you'll want to lower the legs on the treble bout of the fiddle, raise the legs on the bass side, or both.) Some combination of all three angles may give you some relief from feeling like you're "over-reaching."
3. Do some fourth finger workouts--find a phrase or two that really uses the fourth finger (on the e string to start with) and play it over and over to build up strength, agility, and looseness in that finger. Something like the c part of Musical Priest. Don't overdo it, but work in 5 to 10 minutes of this each day and it will add up. When it gets easier, move the exercise over to the A string, then to the D, and finally to the G.
4. Do some warm ups and gentle stretches to help your forearm, wrist, and hand adapt to facing your palm out to the left. I haven't had much luck with this--my elbow tendons are shot from years of abuse (baseball, juggling, mountain biking, etc.), so I'm grateful for what little range of motion I have. Properly warming up the muscles and doing range-of-motion stretches at least helps me maintain, rather than losing ground.
5. Try lots of different fiddles. For years I played a decent fiddle that happened to have a club of a neck. I had no idea how stout this neck was--and why my hand always hurt--until I tried other fiddles and found that most of them had much more slender necks. That alone resolved a lot of the hand problems I was struggling with.
Hope something here helps....
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Fiddle Fourth Finger Problem
I'm no expert, goodness knows, but--
Are you tucking your left elbow under far enough?
I also need to arch my left wrist, violin-style--I don't know how fiddlers who play with the left hand flat against the neck can reach all the notes (although Martin Hayes seems to manage).
On the other hand, since I got some lessons in Irish fiddling, I find I'm using the open E string a lot more--to do that "slurring across strings" thing--and it seems to be working pretty well. So I'm not using my fourth finger as much as I used to.
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by mickray
Re: Fiddle Fourth Finger Problem
Oops, not just open E--I mean more open strings, generally.
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by mickray
Re: Fiddle Fourth Finger Problem
Oh, and Will is absolutely right about general stretching. I have had fewer hand (and wrist, and shoulder) troubles since I started swimming a couple times per week.
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by mickray
Re: Fiddle Fourth Finger Problem
"My hand is not working that way. For some reason, I can't curl my fingers as much as others do."
Can you make a fist?
KFG
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by KFG
Re: Fiddle Fourth Finger Problem
You could try one of those grip strengtheners with separate buttons for each finger to strengthen your little finger - or just use a tennis ball.
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by Martin Milner
Re: Fiddle Fourth Finger Problem
We're all built differently... maybe your wife (and many others) have a freakish hand. Will' right , though - the stretches will help. After two dislocations of my left littlefinger (90 degrees the wrong way), it locks up at the centre knuckle at the most inconvenient times, so I have the same problems as you... we soldier on as best we may...
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by drone
Re: Fiddle Fourth Finger Problem
Going along with what the other's are saying: Stretching is the way to go. Also the grip trainer is a good idea. Have you gone to a teacher and just asked, "Hey, take a look at this, and tell me what I'm doing wrong?" You could ask your wife, but that question tends to lead to all SORTS of off-the-wall comments. Then again, I'm sure that it'll get those same sort of comments HERE, so...
I've got a similar problem: When I was very young, I got a cut right near the end joint on my left pinky. If I hold up both hand fourth fingers side by side, you can see a DEFINITE inward slant to the left one. Has caused some problems, but stretching and general grip training has helped.
Good luck, and keep with it. If nothing else, you can just smile when folks look at your odd 4th, and shurg saying, "Well, God just put me together this way!"
-P
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by Philem
Re: Fiddle Fourth Finger Problem
More power to your pinky
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by Ripthecalico
Re: Fiddle Fourth Finger Problem
Sounds like stretching and exercising are the key. I'll give it a try. I also found Will's comment about the shoulder rest interesting. I had not used a shoulder rest up until I took a renewed interest in the fiddle a few years ago. I had always gone without one. My first shoulder rest was a Kun imitation, with adjustable legs. Then I switched to a much more stable Comford rest. I like the Comford because it provides great stability and never slides. But you can't adjust it at all. That may have caused or exaggerated the problem.
I forgot to mention that i DO use the arched hand position Micray mentions. When I arch less, so the hand is closer to the neck, I can curl my fingers more. But, like Micray, I've never understood how you can play well in this position, to get distinct notes when playing a fast roll, for example.
So, I'll have my pinky stretching, doing sit-ups and squeezing tennis balls very soon. I'll also try out the old should rest for awhile and see if it makes a difference.
Thanks for all your helpful comments.
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by FiddleCrazy
Re: Fiddle Fourth Finger Problem
Just wanted to re-iterate how important the 4th finger excerises are.
Quite a few years ago I had trouble getting the little finger notes in tune, but after Paul O Shaughnessy took my fiddle class at the winter school I realised the possibilities that open up once you have full control of your 4th finger...It should be as strong as all your other fingers, and there's no reason (unless you have a specific medical problem, obviously) that it can't.
I did lots of stretching - try closing all your fingers together tightly and then moving just the 4th finger away from the others as far as it will go. Also try bending each finger in turn so that the fingertip touches as far down the base of your thumb as you can...after a few days it will start to improve your flexibility.
The best way to improve strength, though, is simply to use it more!! For example use it for all your rolls and triplets until it gets stronger.
There must be loads of other ways of doing this but that's just what I found to work...Good luck
Lizzy xx
# Posted on January 9th 2006 by Lizzy
Re: Fiddle Fourth Finger Problem
When ever I'm feeling a bit tight and finding the fiddle awkward, I play my viola for a bit. Then when I go back to the fiddle, it fels like a toy.
# Posted on January 10th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle Fourth Finger Problem
feels
# Posted on January 10th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle Fourth Finger Problem
If my fingers ever feel tight I just go run scales and stuff on the piano. Always seems to loosen them up for me.
Also, my fingers point down the fingerboard and not straight across.
# Posted on January 10th 2006 by musicfan
Re: Fiddle Fourth Finger Problem
I've mucked around for hours with chin and shoulder rests - made my own as well as used store-bought. I never feel comfortable curving my fingers around - maybe they'll bend on their own after a few years? My left middle seemed to bend after years of guitar playing.
I read that Cape Breton fiddlers would boogie around a lot while they were playing - not just getting into the spirit of the thing, they played unampilified 10 minute sets over and over, moving around was a way of keeping from getting stiff.
# Posted on January 10th 2006 by Kevin Rietmann
Re: Fiddle Fourth Finger Problem
I don't use a shoulder rest. I do have a chin rest but I never really liked the feel of a shoulder rest.
# Posted on January 10th 2006 by musicfan
Re: Fiddle Fourth Finger Problem
Try to use the TIPS of ALL fingers, and don't allow the fourth finger to curl up when not in use...or EVER!... Also keep forcing yourself to use the fourth as much as possible. Exercise exercise exercise. Hope this helps.
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by ginley
Re: Fiddle Fourth Finger Problem
I was going to suggest light-heartedly that you do what I do every now and then, play viola till you feel sorry for yourself (and my viola would make you cry just looking at it), then, voila! (ho ho), go back to the violin and all your pinky problems have gone away ... but I see MG has beaten me to it.
# Posted on January 12th 2006 by Tish
Re: Fiddle Fourth Finger Problem
Thank you to everyone who put in their two cents on this thread - I have a similar issue with my 4th finger, and this is most helpful!
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by kristenvm
Re: Fiddle Fourth Finger Problem
I, too, had an issue with my 4th finger -- and posted a question on this site some months ago. Today, even with my short fingers, I can finally hit the difficult notes (e.g., F on the A string). For me, it was a matter of practice, practice, practice -- just never giving up. It took months. Something very important, though, was my elbow. For me, in order to get the tough 4th finger stretch notes, my elbow MUST move under to the right (toward me). I had to consciously work at this and move my elbow more when these notes came up. At first, these elbow moves would be jerky and sound very forced (because it was!). I really did think I was going to have to give up the violin because of this 4th finger issue, but my stubborness wouldn't let me. My elbow is now muscle trained to do this -- and sometimes I catch a glimpse of my elbow moving itself for these notes. It's cool how the brain can be trained!! But it takes a lot of time and effort. I sincerely wish you good luck.
# Posted on January 22nd 2006 by debd