OK, I'm sure this is going to offend someone, but so be it.
I play a local session in a newly-built pub that has very reflective walls, celing, and floors, and when the place gets crowded, you can barely hear yourself think, much less play. The first couple of time we played this place, the music just got buried. So, the guitar player decided, at my urging, to bring in a couple of dynamic cardidoid mics and a small powered mixer, and run the signal into the house speakers. Works OK, but it's a small space and there's little room for mic stands, and the mic coverage is spotty.
So, I'm pushing the idea now of using a large-ribbon omnidirectional condensor mic placed in the middle of the central table on a shock mount. The idea is that it would pick everybody's instrument equally, and it would be only one mic to deal with. I'm sure that's heresy in some quarters, but the owner is not particularly interested in modifying his new and bloody expensive place to address the hideous acoustics.
Has anyone ever experimented with this kind of mic setup? It's a variation of the old single mic Bluegrass band setup, which some contemporary bands still use with aplomb. Some of the new Chinese-made ribbon mics are quite nice, and extremely affordable. Yes, it would be lovely to continue to do it acoustically, but that's not really an option in this pub. (BTW, classical recordings are made every day with this kind of setup.) Any engineers out there?
P.S. The mic I'm considering is a copy of a Neumann U87, which is a classic large diaphragm (not "ribbon," sorry) microphone can be set up in at least three patterns. These copies are in no way seriously comparable to a Neumann, but for live sound reinforcement in a noisy bar, they seem quite appropriate. Plop one of these guys down in the middle of a session, and let's see what happens!
Well, that would also bring a certain amount of "who's the best" into the session, giving that the person closest would be much louder in the mix, and the seat closest would to newcomers seems to be for the elite, making a kind of pattern of the seating arrangement.
I've done the one-mike thing on stage, and its' really a big diff if you're two feet or six feet from the mike. Especially as a banjo and box-player, I've noticed this. Try putting a loud Paolo Soprani C#/D closest, and try to hear the flute player two seats away...
Would you shut the mikes off when not playing? The small-talk would also be amplified through the mikes, and I know for one that I'd feel a bit strange having 50 people listening in...
BUT: you could perhaps try a higher mounting, giving a more even mix of the sessioneers. I'm not sure, but arent' that's how they do a theaters? You know, mikes 3 feet above the actors.
NOTE: the large diaphram microphone I've used was a cheap Samson, and should not be compared to good quality mike.
BTW, I've done a lot of mini-disc recordings with one central mike, and though a bit crappy in the quality due to the mike I've used for this, It was okay. But everytime I had a lot of the closest instrument, and loads of the talking in the background in-between tunes.
Well, of course we'd power it down on breaks, and we'd have to watch the snark between tunes, but we're doing that now with a bunch of dynamic mics. It adds clutter to the PA to have extraneous sounds, but that's the price you pay to be heard above the crowd.
Yes, placement would be critical. This is not an open session, although we allow certain players to drop in from time to time. The idea is that you run the mic pretty hot, and place it in the middle of the action on a small table about chest high. If certain players or instruments are particularly loud, they'd probably have to move back a bit. The objective is to give the musicians a boost into the house system.
My band has been experimenting with a single mic, when required. The general opinion is that it is more inclusive to gather around a single mic than have a number of stands, along with someone responsible for the mixer.
We only use this for a paid gig in a noisy bar, but this seems similar to your situation.
We have been renting an Apex 460; not too expensive, and quite versatile. The trick seems to be in finding how close to place the various instruments, and then get the players of same to remember their stations. Perhaps less difficult if everyone is seated.
Also see an article by Bruce Bartlett "The Single-mic Technique" at ProSoundWeb.com.
I heard about someone hanging a mic from the rafters over the musicians once, which worked well in increasing the volume of the music--the problem was, people just talked louder. Sometimes the problem is acoustics, sometimes it is a crowd that isn't there to hear music, and considers it a distraction from their conversations.
It's a nice little new pub in a great location, and the owner loves the music and lets us drink on the house. We've also got two very pretty young women who come out and step-dance to some of the tunes. It's great craic. Sure, we could do this in someone's house, but that's another conversation, right?
Our motive, as clearly explained above, is to boost our sound above the crowd noise so that we can hear ourselves a bit better, as well as the crowd hearing us.
It's in Florida. The women who come (customers) are so friggin' gorgeous that they make my teeth hurt. However, this place is also so damn loud that even the banjo and bodhran has to be mic'ed. Sad, but true.
I’ve run a lot of concerts with a single-mic setup and when the voices and instruments were naturally well-balanced, it worked great. It doesn’t work for everyone, though, and there’s only so much you can accomplish by adjusting the distances. A lot of bluegrass bands have started adding a spot mic (small diaphragm condensor or dynamic) for the lead guitar or mando player.
For a session in a very live room, a big omni mic might feed back before you get adequate volume out of it. If you can run it in cardioid (directional) mode and put everybody on one side of it, you’ll have a better chance of controlling it, but that might not be possible.
I had a similar problem at a pub I played at several times. Plus, the owner wanted to keep the music that was piped in on while we played. I stopped playing there because it was too much of a hassle. And it was in the OC so it had its fair share of "attractiive women".
Part of this has to do with the fact that the session is new and the crowd isn't used to it.
Since the women are attractive, they will draw attention to the music. Since the proprietor loves the music and is committed to having you there, you won't get booted by the punters, at least right away. You might have to make some concessions... like play in a different part of the house or give up your drinks if the competition with the patrons continues.
But all in all, I think that as you persist, the crowd will come to enjoy you. It's been my experience that the bigger deal the house makes of the session (including the mention on their calendars, flyers, -all- of their advertising, offering drink &/or food specials on session nights...), the more you'll draw a crowd that is into sharing the music.
There's a new session much like this here in Indiana (with a gorgeous dancer, too!), and while the house mgmt. is into it, they've made no big deal of the session in their advertising, yet, anyway. It's been real work to play in the place, even though some great players have come to it.
I would save your money and go for a budget P.A. system consisting of a powered biamplified speaker lightweight compact yet powerfull. A 6 channel line/mic mixer to prevent the box and bodhrans from drowning out the mandolins and flutes and 3 SM58 rip off mic's and if anyone has a pickup go direct into the jacks. This lot would only set you back around £240 and you can use it to gig or session anywhere and if you are priveliged enough to be getting paid for the sesh my guess is 2-3 weeks of this session would have paid for it. If you have another £160 spare buy another speaker and put one near and one far away, there is no need to worry about feedback either as each speaker has its own vol. control on the back. Brixton music shop also deals in behringer gear its unbelieveably good V.F.M. My band is due an upgrade in P.A. gear for a long time now and its the very thing I am looking for it's quality is as good as the Mackie equivelant as its designed in a similar way but only a fraction of the cost checkout the pic's & prices below. At least you remain in control of the sound and not the wannabe soundman / landlord
In a loud setting that is packed, and the band has a very tight space, mics suck. Have one for a vocalist. Everyone else should have a pick-up and a good mixer/amp. It's OK if everyone else drowns out the bodhran once in a while.
Mic'ing a Loud Session
Mic'ing a Loud Session
OK, I'm sure this is going to offend someone, but so be it.
I play a local session in a newly-built pub that has very reflective walls, celing, and floors, and when the place gets crowded, you can barely hear yourself think, much less play. The first couple of time we played this place, the music just got buried. So, the guitar player decided, at my urging, to bring in a couple of dynamic cardidoid mics and a small powered mixer, and run the signal into the house speakers. Works OK, but it's a small space and there's little room for mic stands, and the mic coverage is spotty.
So, I'm pushing the idea now of using a large-ribbon omnidirectional condensor mic placed in the middle of the central table on a shock mount. The idea is that it would pick everybody's instrument equally, and it would be only one mic to deal with. I'm sure that's heresy in some quarters, but the owner is not particularly interested in modifying his new and bloody expensive place to address the hideous acoustics.
Has anyone ever experimented with this kind of mic setup? It's a variation of the old single mic Bluegrass band setup, which some contemporary bands still use with aplomb. Some of the new Chinese-made ribbon mics are quite nice, and extremely affordable. Yes, it would be lovely to continue to do it acoustically, but that's not really an option in this pub. (BTW, classical recordings are made every day with this kind of setup.) Any engineers out there?
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by Audeamus
Re: Mic'ing a Loud Session
P.S. The mic I'm considering is a copy of a Neumann U87, which is a classic large diaphragm (not "ribbon," sorry) microphone can be set up in at least three patterns. These copies are in no way seriously comparable to a Neumann, but for live sound reinforcement in a noisy bar, they seem quite appropriate. Plop one of these guys down in the middle of a session, and let's see what happens!
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by Audeamus
Re: Mic'ing a Loud Session
Well, that would also bring a certain amount of "who's the best" into the session, giving that the person closest would be much louder in the mix, and the seat closest would to newcomers seems to be for the elite, making a kind of pattern of the seating arrangement.
I've done the one-mike thing on stage, and its' really a big diff if you're two feet or six feet from the mike. Especially as a banjo and box-player, I've noticed this. Try putting a loud Paolo Soprani C#/D closest, and try to hear the flute player two seats away...
Would you shut the mikes off when not playing? The small-talk would also be amplified through the mikes, and I know for one that I'd feel a bit strange having 50 people listening in...
BUT: you could perhaps try a higher mounting, giving a more even mix of the sessioneers. I'm not sure, but arent' that's how they do a theaters? You know, mikes 3 feet above the actors.
NOTE: the large diaphram microphone I've used was a cheap Samson, and should not be compared to good quality mike.
//Lars
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by Larshansen
Re: Mic'ing a Loud Session
BTW, I've done a lot of mini-disc recordings with one central mike, and though a bit crappy in the quality due to the mike I've used for this, It was okay. But everytime I had a lot of the closest instrument, and loads of the talking in the background in-between tunes.
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by Larshansen
Re: Mic'ing a Loud Session
Well, of course we'd power it down on breaks, and we'd have to watch the snark between tunes, but we're doing that now with a bunch of dynamic mics. It adds clutter to the PA to have extraneous sounds, but that's the price you pay to be heard above the crowd.
Yes, placement would be critical. This is not an open session, although we allow certain players to drop in from time to time. The idea is that you run the mic pretty hot, and place it in the middle of the action on a small table about chest high. If certain players or instruments are particularly loud, they'd probably have to move back a bit. The objective is to give the musicians a boost into the house system.
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by Audeamus
Re: Mic'ing a Loud Session
My band has been experimenting with a single mic, when required. The general opinion is that it is more inclusive to gather around a single mic than have a number of stands, along with someone responsible for the mixer.
We only use this for a paid gig in a noisy bar, but this seems similar to your situation.
We have been renting an Apex 460; not too expensive, and quite versatile. The trick seems to be in finding how close to place the various instruments, and then get the players of same to remember their stations. Perhaps less difficult if everyone is seated.
Also see an article by Bruce Bartlett "The Single-mic Technique" at ProSoundWeb.com.
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by oldstrings
Re: Mic'ing a Loud Session
Sorry, try http://www.prosoundweb.com/lsi/ab/singlemic.php
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by oldstrings
Re: Mic'ing a Loud Session
It makes me wonder why one would have to play in such a venue for a session. Aren't there any more conducive places to have your session in?
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by Eldarion
Re: Mic'ing a Loud Session
What's your motive? To be able to hear each other, or to be heard by the punterts?
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Mic'ing a Loud Session
I heard about someone hanging a mic from the rafters over the musicians once, which worked well in increasing the volume of the music--the problem was, people just talked louder. Sometimes the problem is acoustics, sometimes it is a crowd that isn't there to hear music, and considers it a distraction from their conversations.
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Mic'ing a Loud Session
It's a nice little new pub in a great location, and the owner loves the music and lets us drink on the house. We've also got two very pretty young women who come out and step-dance to some of the tunes. It's great craic. Sure, we could do this in someone's house, but that's another conversation, right?
Our motive, as clearly explained above, is to boost our sound above the crowd noise so that we can hear ourselves a bit better, as well as the crowd hearing us.
Thanks for the link. That's helpful.
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by Audeamus
Re: Mic'ing a Loud Session
Pretty young step-dancers? Drinks on the house??
Tell me where it is- I'll BRING the damn microphone!
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by oldstrings
Re: Mic'ing a Loud Session
The louder you make the music, the louder the punters will have to shout to drown it out.
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Mic'ing a Loud Session
It's in Florida. The women who come (customers) are so friggin' gorgeous that they make my teeth hurt. However, this place is also so damn loud that even the banjo and bodhran has to be mic'ed. Sad, but true.
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by Audeamus
Re: Mic'ing a Loud Session
I’ve run a lot of concerts with a single-mic setup and when the voices and instruments were naturally well-balanced, it worked great. It doesn’t work for everyone, though, and there’s only so much you can accomplish by adjusting the distances. A lot of bluegrass bands have started adding a spot mic (small diaphragm condensor or dynamic) for the lead guitar or mando player.
For a session in a very live room, a big omni mic might feed back before you get adequate volume out of it. If you can run it in cardioid (directional) mode and put everybody on one side of it, you’ll have a better chance of controlling it, but that might not be possible.
Anyway, give it a try. And report back.
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Mic'ing a Loud Session
BTW, what brand is your Neumann clone?
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Mic'ing a Loud Session
Haven't bought one yet. I've been looking at the Nady, but there are a couple of other low cost mics worth checking out. Spend some time at: http://home.earthlink.net/~rongonz/home_rec/microphone.html.
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by Audeamus
Re: Mic'ing a Loud Session
I had a similar problem at a pub I played at several times. Plus, the owner wanted to keep the music that was piped in on while we played. I stopped playing there because it was too much of a hassle. And it was in the OC so it had its fair share of "attractiive women".
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by michael_coleman
Re: Mic'ing a Loud Session
Part of this has to do with the fact that the session is new and the crowd isn't used to it.
Since the women are attractive, they will draw attention to the music. Since the proprietor loves the music and is committed to having you there, you won't get booted by the punters, at least right away. You might have to make some concessions... like play in a different part of the house or give up your drinks if the competition with the patrons continues.
But all in all, I think that as you persist, the crowd will come to enjoy you. It's been my experience that the bigger deal the house makes of the session (including the mention on their calendars, flyers, -all- of their advertising, offering drink &/or food specials on session nights...), the more you'll draw a crowd that is into sharing the music.
There's a new session much like this here in Indiana (with a gorgeous dancer, too!), and while the house mgmt. is into it, they've made no big deal of the session in their advertising, yet, anyway. It's been real work to play in the place, even though some great players have come to it.
Keep at it!
stv
OssianUSA has the Culchies CD
http://www.ossianusa.com
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by stv culchie
Re: Mic'ing a Loud Session
I would save your money and go for a budget P.A. system consisting of a powered biamplified speaker lightweight compact yet powerfull. A 6 channel line/mic mixer to prevent the box and bodhrans from drowning out the mandolins and flutes and 3 SM58 rip off mic's and if anyone has a pickup go direct into the jacks. This lot would only set you back around £240 and you can use it to gig or session anywhere and if you are priveliged enough to be getting paid for the sesh my guess is 2-3 weeks of this session would have paid for it. If you have another £160 spare buy another speaker and put one near and one far away, there is no need to worry about feedback either as each speaker has its own vol. control on the back. Brixton music shop also deals in behringer gear its unbelieveably good V.F.M. My band is due an upgrade in P.A. gear for a long time now and its the very thing I am looking for it's quality is as good as the Mackie equivelant as its designed in a similar way but only a fraction of the cost checkout the pic's & prices below. At least you remain in control of the sound and not the wannabe soundman / landlord
http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop/flypage/product_id/5981
http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop/flypage/product_id/5460
http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop/flypage/product_id/2073
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by Ripthecalico
Re: Mic'ing a Loud Session
“…but it's a small space and there's little room for mic stands, …”
# Posted on January 6th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Mic'ing a Loud Session
In a loud setting that is packed, and the band has a very tight space, mics suck. Have one for a vocalist. Everyone else should have a pick-up and a good mixer/amp. It's OK if everyone else drowns out the bodhran once in a while.
# Posted on January 6th 2006 by Moylan
Re: Mic'ing a Loud Session
if its tight for space use little transducers then detatchable microvox ones are ok
# Posted on January 6th 2006 by Ripthecalico