hi, i stumbled onto this website while looking for a tab for 'Bi a Losa, I'm Chroise' by John Feeley. I was wondering if anyone knows any good sorrow filled Irish folk songs or classical pieces, the only ones i can find are happy their arent any sad songs. does anyone know any good songs like this? or any good medieval folk songs? thanks for any help.
Well,
maybe 'Sumer Is Icumin In' is medieval. And maybe it's a 'folk song' - but I suspect it's just lost it's composer.
Bloody good stuff, this Glenmorangie!
Here are a couple of poems taken from the book “Irish Bardic Poetry” by Osborn Bergin. They are late bardic works, which means they are eighteenth century. I’ve copied these two because they are short. The tone of nearly every poem is extremely mournful. These may have been declaimed, or they may have been sung. But if they were sung, nobody knows the tune.
If you are looking for “mournful” tunes, you might like to listen to “Taimse Im’ mo Chodladh”. If you translate the words, it is delightfully raunchy. At least, that’s how it seems to me. But if you don’t know the words, it can sound sad, and I know that on occasion it has been used at funerals and wakes. It makes a change from “The flowers of the forest”.
The oldest tune on the session, as far as I can tell, is "The Witches" which dates back to 1521 according to the blurb. But it is not mournful (except when I play it REALLY badly). And there are no words as far as I know.
You could do worse than "The Minstrel Boy to the War has gone" which was my Mother's favourite.
Dubhach sin, a dhúin na ríogh,
Ní hiongnadh dhuit do dhith Néill;
Dob annamh leat orchra ort;
Dubhach sibh anocht dá éis.
Gidh dubhach atáoi-si anocht,
Do dbúdh tusa cnoc na cclíar;
Dob annamh thusa leat féin
A n-aimsir Néill na náoi ngíall.
Gach flaithios acht flaitheas Dé
A chaitheamh uile as é [a] fíor;
An sáoghal ni ha[dh]bhar tnúidh,
Dubhach sin a d[h]úin na ríogh.
Dubhach.
Attributed to Gormlaith.
This is mournful, O Fort of the Kings
- no wonder for thee lacking Niall.
Seldom hast thou felt decay;
Tonight thou art mournful after him.
Though thou art mournful tonight,
Thou wast the hill of the bardic companies;
Seldom wert thou lonely
in the time of Niall of the Nine Hostages.
Every kingdom but the Kingdom of God shall pass away,
That is the truth of it.
The world is no mark for envy.
This is mournful, O Fort of the Kings.
“On the Uncertainty of Life”
From the book of Conor Don.
An Brathair bocht Giolla Brigde Alias
Bonabhentura Ó Heodhasa
A dhiune chuirios an crann
Cía bhus beó ag búain a ubhall?
Ar bhás don chráoibh ghegaigh ghil,
Ré a fhégoin dáoibh an deimhin?
Gan t’fuitreach ré a bhláth do bhoing
San lubhghort úaine áluinn
Smúain, a fhir na ccleath do chor
Mo chreach! Ag sin an sáoghal.
D’éis a aibchighthi as é ad liamh,
An tú chaithfius, a chompáin,
Blath garrdha na ngeg solus?
Tarria ón ég a n-amharus.
Ni crionna dhuit, a dhuine,
Ga mbi an choille chumhraide,
Th’aire ar fhas na n-abhall lag,
‘sgan cás at anam agad.
O man that plantest the tree, who shall live to pluck its apples? When the bright branching shoot is grown, is it sure to be seen by thee?
Think of thy not remaining to pluck its blossom in the lovely green orchard, o thou that are fixing the props – alas! Such is the world.
When it is ripe an in thy hand, is it thou who wilt eat of it, my friend, that flower of the garden of shining sprays? Death has made even this doubtful.
It is not prudent for thee, thou owner of the wood, to watch the growth of the frail appletrees, and not to care for thy soul.
"I Am Stretched On Your Grave" isn't quite medieval, but it's Irish and pretty damn old. It's actually a centuries-old Irish poem that was translated into English in the 20th century by Frank O'Connor and set to music. It's sad and morbid to the point of being almost necrophilic.
I think "Fairytale of New York" is really sad. It has a romantic quality to it, but the relationship described in it is so dysfunctional, it reminds me of an Irish, musical version of "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf."
Another tearjerker is "Anach Cuain", another Irish poem set to music--the lyrics are in Irish. It's about a drowning and is based ona true story.
AlBrown is right--I thought ALL Irish songs were sad. What are all these happy-go-lucky Irish songs you're talking about? I can barely think of one. But as for sad ones, along with the ones I just mentioned, there's also An Buachaill Caol Dubh, Carrickfergus, Mary of Dungloe, Fields of Athenry, Kevin Barry, The Croppy Boy, Nancy Spain, the list goes on and on and on...
I direct the jury to exhibit A, any Christmas carol worth it's salt.
Without having my CD's handy the exact names escape my memory, but there are plenty of medieval "folk songs." The original Carmina Burana leaps to mind.
i was once singing folks songs to a friend's child while i pushed the swing when my friend said, "will you quit freaking the kid out!" i was singing, "my bonnie" "polly von" "sweet betsy from pike" and "barbry ellen." hadn't realized how many folks songs are about death. so i started singing, "what do you do with a drunken sailor."
Sorry to wind you up, Wormdiet ...
Though I think there is a kernel of truth in what I said, in as much as if the medieval period can be said to extend from the twelfth to the fourteenth century - which Xmas Carols did you have in mind? I can only think of a lot of Victorian ones.
hey, thanks everyone for their replys some of the have helped me quite a lot, but isnt gillan welch american? wat i was looking for was old irish tunes maybe even early english and scottish tunes, around the period of the first millenium i.e. 800AD - 1150AD that kind of period. I think the reason for many of the medieval tunes being lost is because when they were composed their structure of musical notation was vastly different to ours today and many of them could not read or write. but i thank you for your help nonetheless.
There are people perfectly capable of translating older forms of notation into newer forms, however, few, if any, folk songs and tunes were ever notated in the first place. In Ireland there was even a social proscription against it. Notation was for church music.
You'll do better with old English songs than Irish/Scot/Welsh because the main reason for the loss of these songs, other than the simple mists of time, can be summed up rather succinctly:
I confess that Gillian welch IS indeed American. That was thrown in as a bit of a googly (in the cricketing, rather than the search engine sense). She does, however, write good sad songs.
Anonymous 4 Christmas albums. I only have one of them (On Yoolis Night) but it's very good. Most of it is chant or similar, but a few folksy things cropped in:
Lullay Lullay (One of the two, anyway)
Gabriel from Heaven Cam
There is no Rose
Two I'm not sure about. Great tunes though:
Alleluia-A Newe Werke
(Methinks this one is a clerical composition)
Nowell - Owt of your slepe arise
I could dig up some other CDs but they are at my folk's place next to the Windham Hill Xmas albums.
One other thought - simply because a tune has a known composer doesn't mean that it's descendents and variants can't become part of a folk tradition! That sounds boorishly obvious to this crowd but maybe somebody will get some use out of it.
Agreed, though the fact that a tune is old or has lost it's composer doesn't surely mean it is therefore a 'folk song' per se. It must be inducted into the popular canon (if that's the right expression.)
There is no Rose is indeed medieval, and is what we think of as sounding 'folky', though it's provenance is more aristocratic than 'folk', being written by John Dunstable, employed by the Duke of Bedford. This is all academic of course....
ca rabhas ar feadh an lae uaim? is as miserable as it gets the story being based on an earl back in the 12 century or so whom went mental and seems to have killed himself dont know where youd get the lyrics but its on a cd of sean nos songs from ballinskelligs on the clo iar chonnachta label how old it is is anyones guess it is a twin of the anglo irish ballad henry my son but sounds nothing like it the lyrics giving the only clue to their likeness.
one of the verses translates roughly as
what will you leave you love young boy
what will you leave your love young fella
a noose to hang her and a fine strong rope
make my bed im as sick as hell
suitably miseralble huh?!
hi, need some help...
hi, need some help...
hi, i stumbled onto this website while looking for a tab for 'Bi a Losa, I'm Chroise' by John Feeley. I was wondering if anyone knows any good sorrow filled Irish folk songs or classical pieces, the only ones i can find are happy their arent any sad songs. does anyone know any good songs like this? or any good medieval folk songs? thanks for any help.
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by For_Paganism
Re: hi, need some help...
there are no 'medieval folk songs'....
sorry
Gillian Welch writes good sad songs though.
http://www.gillianwelch.com
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by Ottery
Re: hi, need some help...
Well,
maybe 'Sumer Is Icumin In' is medieval. And maybe it's a 'folk song' - but I suspect it's just lost it's composer.
Bloody good stuff, this Glenmorangie!
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by Ottery
Re: hi, need some help...
Try http://www.mudcat.org -- I don't think you're going to find anything like what you're looking for (though I'm not quite sure what that is) here.
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: hi, need some help...
I'll have one of whatever Ottery's drinking please.
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: hi, need some help...
If you can't find any sad Irish songs, you haven't found any Irish songs to speak of.
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by AlBrown
Re: hi, need some help...
lol @ AlBrown!
for the sad and heart-stopping stuff i think the 'Erbarme Dich' from Bach's st. matthew passion hard to beat.
and Mark,when you've had enough (is this possible?) you could try the McCallen
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by biggus dave
Re: hi, need some help...
His harp was carved and cunning,
His sword prompt and sharp,
And he was gay when he held the sword,
Sad when he held the harp.
For the Great Gaels of Ireland,
Are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry,
And all their songs are sad."
-G.K. Chesterton
KFG
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by KFG
Re: hi, need some help...
Here are a couple of poems taken from the book “Irish Bardic Poetry” by Osborn Bergin. They are late bardic works, which means they are eighteenth century. I’ve copied these two because they are short. The tone of nearly every poem is extremely mournful. These may have been declaimed, or they may have been sung. But if they were sung, nobody knows the tune.
If you are looking for “mournful” tunes, you might like to listen to “Taimse Im’ mo Chodladh”. If you translate the words, it is delightfully raunchy. At least, that’s how it seems to me. But if you don’t know the words, it can sound sad, and I know that on occasion it has been used at funerals and wakes. It makes a change from “The flowers of the forest”.
The oldest tune on the session, as far as I can tell, is "The Witches" which dates back to 1521 according to the blurb. But it is not mournful (except when I play it REALLY badly). And there are no words as far as I know.
You could do worse than "The Minstrel Boy to the War has gone" which was my Mother's favourite.
Dubhach sin, a dhúin na ríogh,
Ní hiongnadh dhuit do dhith Néill;
Dob annamh leat orchra ort;
Dubhach sibh anocht dá éis.
Gidh dubhach atáoi-si anocht,
Do dbúdh tusa cnoc na cclíar;
Dob annamh thusa leat féin
A n-aimsir Néill na náoi ngíall.
Gach flaithios acht flaitheas Dé
A chaitheamh uile as é [a] fíor;
An sáoghal ni ha[dh]bhar tnúidh,
Dubhach sin a d[h]úin na ríogh.
Dubhach.
Attributed to Gormlaith.
This is mournful, O Fort of the Kings
- no wonder for thee lacking Niall.
Seldom hast thou felt decay;
Tonight thou art mournful after him.
Though thou art mournful tonight,
Thou wast the hill of the bardic companies;
Seldom wert thou lonely
in the time of Niall of the Nine Hostages.
Every kingdom but the Kingdom of God shall pass away,
That is the truth of it.
The world is no mark for envy.
This is mournful, O Fort of the Kings.
“On the Uncertainty of Life”
From the book of Conor Don.
An Brathair bocht Giolla Brigde Alias
Bonabhentura Ó Heodhasa
A dhiune chuirios an crann
Cía bhus beó ag búain a ubhall?
Ar bhás don chráoibh ghegaigh ghil,
Ré a fhégoin dáoibh an deimhin?
Gan t’fuitreach ré a bhláth do bhoing
San lubhghort úaine áluinn
Smúain, a fhir na ccleath do chor
Mo chreach! Ag sin an sáoghal.
D’éis a aibchighthi as é ad liamh,
An tú chaithfius, a chompáin,
Blath garrdha na ngeg solus?
Tarria ón ég a n-amharus.
Ni crionna dhuit, a dhuine,
Ga mbi an choille chumhraide,
Th’aire ar fhas na n-abhall lag,
‘sgan cás at anam agad.
O man that plantest the tree, who shall live to pluck its apples? When the bright branching shoot is grown, is it sure to be seen by thee?
Think of thy not remaining to pluck its blossom in the lovely green orchard, o thou that are fixing the props – alas! Such is the world.
When it is ripe an in thy hand, is it thou who wilt eat of it, my friend, that flower of the garden of shining sprays? Death has made even this doubtful.
It is not prudent for thee, thou owner of the wood, to watch the growth of the frail appletrees, and not to care for thy soul.
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by Innocent Bystander
Re: hi, need some help...
"I Am Stretched On Your Grave" isn't quite medieval, but it's Irish and pretty damn old. It's actually a centuries-old Irish poem that was translated into English in the 20th century by Frank O'Connor and set to music. It's sad and morbid to the point of being almost necrophilic.
I think "Fairytale of New York" is really sad. It has a romantic quality to it, but the relationship described in it is so dysfunctional, it reminds me of an Irish, musical version of "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf."
Another tearjerker is "Anach Cuain", another Irish poem set to music--the lyrics are in Irish. It's about a drowning and is based ona true story.
AlBrown is right--I thought ALL Irish songs were sad. What are all these happy-go-lucky Irish songs you're talking about? I can barely think of one. But as for sad ones, along with the ones I just mentioned, there's also An Buachaill Caol Dubh, Carrickfergus, Mary of Dungloe, Fields of Athenry, Kevin Barry, The Croppy Boy, Nancy Spain, the list goes on and on and on...
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by Roe
Re: hi, need some help...
No medieval folk songs?
?Huh?
I direct the jury to exhibit A, any Christmas carol worth it's salt.
Without having my CD's handy the exact names escape my memory, but there are plenty of medieval "folk songs." The original Carmina Burana leaps to mind.
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by wormdiet
Re: hi, need some help...
"It may be a folk song, but I suspect it's just lost it's composer"
Isn't that pretty much true of any and all folk songs? Or am I mistaken, and they all come from fairyland?
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by wormdiet
Re: hi, need some help...
I've been informed surreptitiously that Mark's post was somehow in jest - forgive my American obtoothness!
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by wormdiet
Re: hi, need some help...
i was once singing folks songs to a friend's child while i pushed the swing when my friend said, "will you quit freaking the kid out!" i was singing, "my bonnie" "polly von" "sweet betsy from pike" and "barbry ellen." hadn't realized how many folks songs are about death. so i started singing, "what do you do with a drunken sailor."
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by mutepointe
Re: hi, need some help...
Sorry to wind you up, Wormdiet ...
Though I think there is a kernel of truth in what I said, in as much as if the medieval period can be said to extend from the twelfth to the fourteenth century - which Xmas Carols did you have in mind? I can only think of a lot of Victorian ones.
I'm sure you will put me straight .....
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by Ottery
Re: hi, need some help...
hey, thanks everyone for their replys some of the have helped me quite a lot, but isnt gillan welch american? wat i was looking for was old irish tunes maybe even early english and scottish tunes, around the period of the first millenium i.e. 800AD - 1150AD that kind of period. I think the reason for many of the medieval tunes being lost is because when they were composed their structure of musical notation was vastly different to ours today and many of them could not read or write. but i thank you for your help nonetheless.
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by For_Paganism
Re: hi, need some help...
There are people perfectly capable of translating older forms of notation into newer forms, however, few, if any, folk songs and tunes were ever notated in the first place. In Ireland there was even a social proscription against it. Notation was for church music.
You'll do better with old English songs than Irish/Scot/Welsh because the main reason for the loss of these songs, other than the simple mists of time, can be summed up rather succinctly:
The English.
They were most definately *not* for paganism.
KFG
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by KFG
Re: hi, need some help...
I confess that Gillian welch IS indeed American. That was thrown in as a bit of a googly (in the cricketing, rather than the search engine sense). She does, however, write good sad songs.
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by Ottery
Re: hi, need some help...
Ottery:
Anonymous 4 Christmas albums. I only have one of them (On Yoolis Night) but it's very good. Most of it is chant or similar, but a few folksy things cropped in:
Lullay Lullay (One of the two, anyway)
Gabriel from Heaven Cam
There is no Rose
Two I'm not sure about. Great tunes though:
Alleluia-A Newe Werke
(Methinks this one is a clerical composition)
Nowell - Owt of your slepe arise
I could dig up some other CDs but they are at my folk's place next to the Windham Hill Xmas albums.
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by wormdiet
Re: hi, need some help...
One other thought - simply because a tune has a known composer doesn't mean that it's descendents and variants can't become part of a folk tradition! That sounds boorishly obvious to this crowd but maybe somebody will get some use out of it.
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by wormdiet
Re: hi, need some help...
Almost all the songs I sing are sad. In fact I have only two songs of requited love and one of them is about hippos.
The absolute pick of the bunch is based on a translation from Manx and kills off and entire flock of sheep - leaving the lambs as orphans
J
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by jfother
Re: hi, need some help...
Agreed, though the fact that a tune is old or has lost it's composer doesn't surely mean it is therefore a 'folk song' per se. It must be inducted into the popular canon (if that's the right expression.)
There is no Rose is indeed medieval, and is what we think of as sounding 'folky', though it's provenance is more aristocratic than 'folk', being written by John Dunstable, employed by the Duke of Bedford. This is all academic of course....
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by Ottery
Re: hi, need some help...
The Voice Squad [http://www.taramusic.com/biogs/vsquad.htm] has some great stuff, Padraigin Ni Uallachain for songs in Gaelic
http://celticgrooves.homestead.com/CG_Ni_Uallachain_Stor.html
Phil Callery http://www.taramusic.com/biogs/pcallery.htm
Len Graham http://www.tradmusic.com/groupinfoa.asp?groupID=1492
To name but a very few
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by breandan
Re: hi, need some help...
ca rabhas ar feadh an lae uaim? is as miserable as it gets the story being based on an earl back in the 12 century or so whom went mental and seems to have killed himself dont know where youd get the lyrics but its on a cd of sean nos songs from ballinskelligs on the clo iar chonnachta label how old it is is anyones guess it is a twin of the anglo irish ballad henry my son but sounds nothing like it the lyrics giving the only clue to their likeness.
one of the verses translates roughly as
what will you leave you love young boy
what will you leave your love young fella
a noose to hang her and a fine strong rope
make my bed im as sick as hell
suitably miseralble huh?!
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by cha