As I listen to various reels, it seems that there is not necessarily a standard way. Alot of scottish/shetland tunes seem to be on 2 & 4, but it seems maybe that Irish is more on 1 & 3?
Nope, there's no standard way, and I play them differently depending on who I'm playing with, what I feel like at the time, how much alcohol has been taken, what that particular tune seems to demand...
I realize that's not much help.
You can do a search using the Discussions/Search tab -- try "accent", certainly, but also "pulse" and/or "emphasis".
If you have to think about it you're in bad shape...
It's better just to listen to lots of recordings and find your own personal rhythm that you like of a tune and follow that. Putting the music into mathmatical formulas doesn't work.
I don't have any idea of your level but I recommend listening to anything you can get your hands on and your internal rhythm and personal approach will develope naturally over time so you won't even have to think about it. And remember to be flexible.
"If you have to think about it you're in bad shape.." -- or perhaps you're a beginner or newcomer to this music, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. But it's good advice to listen to lots of other players -- best is actually live players out at sessions who will let you play with them. You'll find you'll learn far more that way than any other way, although recordings are helpful.
If you're listening to lots of music and playing with experienced players, it'll iron itself out, largely. I shouldn't stress about it.
Having all that's been said... it's handy to understand the difference between backbeats and downbeats. I have alternated between the two as an exercise to get the feel of the differences. When I'm playing a tune the phrases will lend themselves to either a backbeat, downbeat… or maybe neither, and it's easier to accentuate if you understand how it feels.
Most traditional session stuff has its accents on the front of the beat, 1 and 3, but there are no hard and fast rules, and a lot depends on the tune, and how people approach it.
Thanks. I already have about 50 scottish and irish CD's and I play with alot of musicians, so I am not a real beginner. But I do only have about five years under my belt. I was simply trying to get a discussion up of how various people do it. I know several Scottish players who say you always play on 2 & 4, not on 1 & 3. Some Irish CD's I have accent on 1 & 3. Thanks for your help. I guess I'll just play it as I want to!
The phantom button said in a nother thread about swing, which is a similar topic: " The swing nudges your accents to be on the back-beat (which is nice) but the straight playing allows you to place the accents where you want. It's very dynamic to play straight and fire on the accents toggling between off or down beats and syncopations."
I don't know about that Michael, to me accenting notes and having a swing/straight groove are independent of each other. Its more than possible to have accents of syncopation in music that is swinging too. There's stuff like Willie Clancy throwing in a triplet, a cran, or even something as simple as a cut in a phrase creating subtle sycopation changing the rhythm, while keeping a fundamentally swingy groove. Michael Flatley too, is pretty swingy when he plays his jigs but freely utilises breath accents to create syncopation on and off within the swing.
Indeed, if you want to measure them, accenting and swinging are different, attack and length. But the music is more subtle than that. You can accent a note not just by hitting it harder, but also by coming in that little bit sooner. And vice verca of course. So the two are inextricably linked. And what the phantom was quite rightly pointing out was that if you have the bones of the tune straight, you have more freedom to accent where you want and how you want.
When you say that groove and accents are inextricably linked, I can agree in the sense that the music ultimately a whole and cannot be realistically disected apart. However I'm still not very convinced that if you have the bones of the tune straight you have more freedom to accent than if you were swinging. There are still notes that fall on the main beat and notes that don't fall on the main beat, and similar factors still have to be taken into account when accenting, whether your groove is straight or swingy. I mean you aren't actually free to accent any old how even if you play straight, it doesn't quite work like that.
When I was set-dancing, I wanted a steady pulse on the first and third beats. Admittedly the music and dancing have lost their erstwhile umbilical connection, but you can't go far wrong if you have that in the back of your mind. I'm interested in the idea that some players say you should always play on the 2nd and 4th. I can't offhand think of any reels I would expect to hear played like that. Can you give any examples?
Just to complicate things a bit, try looking for 8 "beats" in a four beat measure. Instead of counting "one-two-three-four" try "one-and-two-and-three-and-four-and." You will notice that some accents will follow along the lines of "ONE-and-two-and-THREE-and-four-and." Others you will hear "one-AND-two-and-three-AND-four-and."
Around here (where there is a lot of American old timey and country music influence) polkas and hornpipes are often played to emphasize the "ONE" and the "THREE." Reels seem to migrate toward the "AND" beats. That's not to say you can't end up with an accent on the 2nd or 4th beats. These are only general tendencies, but by changing the accent inside the beat soften make for more interesting music. Just make sure you're in sync with the rest of the musicians!
I'm with Eldarion on this one, and couldn't disagree with Phantom and Michael more (even if I wanted to).
There's nothing more annoying than when you're in a nice groovy session and someone comes in and steamrollers over the top of it with straight-as-a-ruler playing. Fair enough if you're a beginner and you haven't internalised the rhythm. We've all been there. But honestly, some people do this when they've been playing for decades and they should know better.
You shouldn't be thinking in terms of "accenting where you want". If you've got rhythm, the tunes accent themselves, and there's nothing to say that those accents necessarily happen on the backbeat in swingy playing. That's absolute rubbish and I can't believe I'm hearing it. Or seeing it or whatever.
If you're hell-bent on playing straight, please stop and think first. It's dance music. The dancers would want to have the time and space within the tune - at whatever speed! - to do their heel and toe stuff. Even if there aren't any dancers at your session, you should imagine that there are and let your fingers/bow/whatever dance, otherwise you've missed the point of it all. You might as well take up classical music, don a suit and sit and play in an orchestra, where you'll be more worried about where to start your rallentando than the intricacies of your rhythm.
I don't care how many of the celtowaft pros play straight, it just sounds crap, and I wish they'd realise that. I find that straight players tend to emphasize either the 1 & 3 or 2 & 4 depending on the player, incessantly, all the time, annoyingly, for every reel and hornpipe, all night, every session, like techno music or something. It's like, for god's sake, if I want that sort of vibe I'll go to a nightclub yeah? I'm sure they do it because it's the only way they can inject some sort of earthy pulse into their tunes. Or maybe they actually *want* to make the tunes sound horrible just so they can show how fast they can string those notes together. *Shudder*...
All the pros who are any good put swing in their tunes. Even players that sound like they're playing dead straight like some of the Donegal fiddlers *aren't* - they're swinging it beautifully but they're just playing really fast so it sounds as though it's straightened out. If you don't believe me go and listen to your CDs again, and if you still don't believe me try using software to slow it down, and if you *still* don't believe me then, well, I'm busy learning tunes so I haven't got time to make you see the point of the music. I just hope you don't ruin as many sessions without realising as I'm sure I have done myself, woe is me.
Ah Dow, you speak so eloquently that is is easy for me to put my finger on our differences:
Firstly:
I'm afraid Stan (above) is right when he says, "the music and dancing have lost their erstwhile umbilical connection." Bemoan this fact or enjoy its liberation? You bemoan, I enjoy. And I'm sorry that you have to imagine your dancers. For your sake it would be much better if you didn't. It would be much better if the "umbilical" were still intact. However, the child was born and while keeping the greatest respect for its mother, it does its best to grow up.
Secondly:
I agree that "there is nothing more annoying than when you're in a nice groovy session and someone comes in and steamrollers over the top of it with straight-as-a-ruler playing". Except that is, when it's the other way around. Swinging playing is stronger playing that straight playing (one of the reasons dancers prefer it) and so stands up better when one out of five, say, goes against the grain. However, stronger doesn't mean better, and you'll agree here, it's more important to play with people than steamroller in with one's personal view of it. But any decent session I like to play in has an eclectic mix of straight and swing anyway. As you say, incessancy (of any kind) is annoying.
Thirdly:
It's all much more subtle than straight and swing anyway. It's the pushme-pullyou aspect of it where it comes into it's own. It's the subtle emphasizing (accent/anticipation/delay) of beats that lifts the music out of the realms of dance music. But you know this anyway; "the best ones who sound like they're playing straight, aren't."
I dug out a good obvious example, Liz Carrol's Lost in the Loop. The pushme-pullyou in the rhythm is immensely varied and controlled.
But perhaps you are missing some other of the "bests" when referring to them as "celtowafts" (what ever that means). Could you name and shame some of these players?
Honestly, Dow... why must you always turn it into an 'us-vs-them' sort of thing. I've said on this thread and the one about swing that I like it both ways. For you to claim that everyone is playing with a swing -- even when their playing straight -- IS rubbish. For you to clam that no one plays straight is called, denial. What's more, people who play with a swing are just as capable of ruining a session as the other way around. That's why it’s handy to know the difference so one can attempt to blend in with whatever session they’re joining.
"For you to claim that everyone is playing with a swing -- even when their playing straight -- IS rubbish. For you to clam that no one plays straight is called, denial."
Hey blindo read my post again I said "all the pros **who are any good** put swing in their tunes"
...And while I have your attention:
"why must you always turn it into an 'us-vs-them' sort of thing"
I wouldn't be me if I didn't
"What's more, people who play with a swing are just as capable of ruining a session as the other way around"
"Bemoan this fact or enjoy its liberation? You bemoan, I enjoy."
Ok I'll bemoan then. I'm quite happy to bemoan. You go and be all jolly and happy-go-lucky if you like Michael. I can't imagine you moaning anyway.
"But perhaps you are missing some other of the "bests" when referring to them as "celtowafts" (what ever that means). Could you name and shame some of these players?"
No way, not here! Next time I get to Edinburgh we can talk about it over a pint maybe.
No probs Dow. Perhaps I didn't come accross right there. What I meant was, could you give us an example of a "famous" player, one we could all dig out a CD of, who you reckon to be playing "straight"?
I could give you plenty examples Michael, but I've basically said that they'd sound "crap" so I don't want to go on record saying stuff here, I mean god, would you?!
I think with "non famous" people I'd agree that slagging them here is a bit grim. But someone who makes their career from public performance and CD sales is a fair target. Everybody knows I think Martin Hayes plays mince, partly because he can't/won't play straight.
Michael,
Martin Hayes spent many a year in ceilidhe bands, playing it straight, and I have heard him playing straightforward music in sessions. Don't judge the man's playing by that tiny snippet that has been captured on tape, or electrons, or whatever it is that captures recordings these days.
If you don't like the style exhibited on Lonesome Touch or some of his more lyrical albums, I can see your point, but just because it is not your cup of tea, don't condemn some good playing in a setting that pushes the boundaries of the tradition.
I guess I just proved Dow's point, that naming names can cause a backlash. (Although I doubt that you have any fear of backlashes of any sort, judging from your candor in past discussions!)
Point taken. I'll re word it: From what I've heard of him, I think Martin Hayes plays mince, partly because, from what I've heard, he can't/won't play straight.
You and your Martin Hayes intolerance, Michael, it's practically a knee jerk response by now, isn't it? I was listening to Mr. Hayes play at a festival once. As Mr. Hayes and John Doyle ramped into and through his storming variations of Star of Munster, a friend turned to me in amazement, never having heard him play live before, and said, "Why the hell do people think Martin Hayes is boring?" I said, "F*ck all if I know."
So Michael, (or anyone else of course) can you point me towards some of your favorite recordings of straight playing? Trying to make sure I understand exactly what we're talking about and before I get into it any further...
Okay, if you don't mind, I'd like to take this a step further and actually ask Michael and Jack and whoever else likes straight playing:
*Why*?
What is there to like about it?
Please tell me because I'm genuinely interested to know. Does it make you want to dance, or do you get entranced by the swirly, confused string of adjacent notes?
Hmm yeah maybe that's it, because techno music is sort of like trance-inducing in the same way...
Have you any suggestions to help me appreciate the music? I'd like to be able to appreciate it because then I'd have an excuse to buy some more CDs instead of being so damn picky because I hate myself for that. Is there some sort of drug I can take like they do in clubs that heightens your appreciation for certain musical genres? I'm game for anything you know
Dow, Michael already gave you examples on the swing thread. I named Frankie Gavin as someone who plays with a swing. I also mentioned how Frankie had to iron out his swing to play with Paddy Keenan. I've noticed that Kevin Crawford tends to play pretty evenly, and if my memory serves me right, Paddy O'Brien plays fairly straight. I remember Aiden Brennan explaining to me that when he was backing Paddy on guitar that he would think of the music in a checkerboard pattern to get it to sound right. He said that he does that with anyone that plays straight like that. I’ve also noticed that Altan played their stuff straight down the middle for the most part. Now if you want to put their music into some sort of hybrid Amazing Slowdowner and measure nanoseconds you might find the notes aren't perfectly even... go ahead. At least you'd stay out of trouble while you were bothering to do it.
Try the three sets of reels on Planxty's after the break album for terrific straight plaing. Matt Molloy and Liam O'Flynn on cracking form. The last set (can't remember the tune names) is not on the album, but it is on the CD.
I could name dozens, but I thought to point you in the direction of a readily available recording
Oh I'm so sad that you mentioned that set. Yes, Liam O'Flynn starts out that last set on the CD with wonderful swing in his playing (Rolling Down The Hill), only to have it steamrollered right over the top of when they start the next tune (Chattering Magpie). Criminal. I used to love that set but it makes me wince now so I can't listen to it anymore. I wish they'd have just shut up and let L .O'F play the whole set solo and lose the faffy arrangement. As for Kevin Crawford and Altan, you'll find they swing slightly. That's why their rhythm sounds so tight. Not much. Just a bit. And no Phantom, I can hear it perfectly well without software. Altan swing it beautifully, Kevin Crawford: brilliant flashy stuff and amazing tone on flute, but not enough swing for my personal taste. But then I'm just picky.
I suppose the only way we'd get enough of a definitive answer to satisfy Dow would be to have these musicians testify in person. I could just see it now.
Crawford: Well... actually, I don't use swing really.
Dow: Yes you do!
On second thought -- personal testimony might not even be good enough for Dow.
Actually no it's not. Sometimes what you perceive yourself to be playing or what you are *aiming* to play isn't actually what comes out. You must be one of the Kevin Crawford worshippers Jack. Fair play to you, he's technically brilliant and not many others could match his complex ornamentation, steady breath control and robust tone, but it's just not my cup of tea. There are flute players out there who aren't as good in terms of flashy techniques who I'd much rather listen to. It all boils down to personal taste I suppose.
I'm listening to it now and there's no way it's consistently straight di-di-di-di like a machine gun. His rhythm's much more complex and subtle than that. It's the rhythm of the other bits like his rolls and crans where he swings it most, especially the bit in the A-part that goes |~A3B cBcd|ef (3gfe dg (3fgf| where to my ears it comes out almost in 12/8 like this |A2{B}A {G}A2B {d}c2B c2d|e2f gfe d2g fgf|. I think if it *was* consistently straight it wouldn't have been as effective. Unfortunately the backers force him to straighten out and by the end of the set they're all just playing a smooth string of notes. Skip back from that direct to the start of the track and you'll see what I mean.
"other bits", as in, there *are* straight bits, but it's the fact that swingy bits are present that make it good, in my opinion... - was what I was trying to say.
I'm at work. I don't have it right now. I'll give a good listen later.
But in the mean time:
Quote:
"It's all much more subtle than straight and swing anyway. It's the pushme-pullyou aspect of it where it comes into it's own. It's the subtle emphasizing (accent/anticipation/delay) of beats that lifts"
Yes, I'd agree with that quote. There's no doubt listening to it that his rhythm is a really subtle mix of swung and straight and it's that inconsistent push/pull that's so exquisite.
What I've been talking about in this thread isn't really about that anyway, but more about people who play trad like a machine gun. I'm sure you know what I mean
yep. Let's try another track that I have on my Itunes right now. One of my faves, that big Rip the Calico big set on Out of the Wind into the Sun. Some of the tunes swing more than others, but none of them really swing. I'd say they are all played straight.
Pretty straight yeah, but I still detect a tiny hint of swing in there, and that's what keeps them sounding like tunes and not just a string of notes. It's just that it's fast so any rhythmic push-pull is less noticeable. Lunasa have that same almost-straight-but-not-quite rhythm. Not enough swing for my personal taste, but hey, I've already slagged off Planxty and Kevin Crawford on one thread, might as well lay into your beloved Bothies while I'm at it eh
Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
As I listen to various reels, it seems that there is not necessarily a standard way. Alot of scottish/shetland tunes seem to be on 2 & 4, but it seems maybe that Irish is more on 1 & 3?
How do you accent tunes?
# Posted on January 1st 2006 by crystal
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Nope, there's no standard way, and I play them differently depending on who I'm playing with, what I feel like at the time, how much alcohol has been taken, what that particular tune seems to demand...
I realize that's not much help.
You can do a search using the Discussions/Search tab -- try "accent", certainly, but also "pulse" and/or "emphasis".
# Posted on January 1st 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
If you have to think about it you're in bad shape...
It's better just to listen to lots of recordings and find your own personal rhythm that you like of a tune and follow that. Putting the music into mathmatical formulas doesn't work.
I don't have any idea of your level but I recommend listening to anything you can get your hands on and your internal rhythm and personal approach will develope naturally over time so you won't even have to think about it. And remember to be flexible.
# Posted on January 1st 2006 by JackMurphy
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Hi Crystal...also try bowing acoss the beat
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by Sunnybear
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
monkeyos is right in saying that each tune will have its own pulse in that the accents sort of work out themselves
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by Sunnybear
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
"If you have to think about it you're in bad shape.." -- or perhaps you're a beginner or newcomer to this music, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. But it's good advice to listen to lots of other players -- best is actually live players out at sessions who will let you play with them. You'll find you'll learn far more that way than any other way, although recordings are helpful.
If you're listening to lots of music and playing with experienced players, it'll iron itself out, largely. I shouldn't stress about it.
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Having all that's been said... it's handy to understand the difference between backbeats and downbeats. I have alternated between the two as an exercise to get the feel of the differences. When I'm playing a tune the phrases will lend themselves to either a backbeat, downbeat… or maybe neither, and it's easier to accentuate if you understand how it feels.
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Most traditional session stuff has its accents on the front of the beat, 1 and 3, but there are no hard and fast rules, and a lot depends on the tune, and how people approach it.
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Thanks. I already have about 50 scottish and irish CD's and I play with alot of musicians, so I am not a real beginner. But I do only have about five years under my belt. I was simply trying to get a discussion up of how various people do it. I know several Scottish players who say you always play on 2 & 4, not on 1 & 3. Some Irish CD's I have accent on 1 & 3. Thanks for your help. I guess I'll just play it as I want to!
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by crystal
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
The phantom button said in a nother thread about swing, which is a similar topic: " The swing nudges your accents to be on the back-beat (which is nice) but the straight playing allows you to place the accents where you want. It's very dynamic to play straight and fire on the accents toggling between off or down beats and syncopations."
Good stuff that
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
I don't know about that Michael, to me accenting notes and having a swing/straight groove are independent of each other. Its more than possible to have accents of syncopation in music that is swinging too. There's stuff like Willie Clancy throwing in a triplet, a cran, or even something as simple as a cut in a phrase creating subtle sycopation changing the rhythm, while keeping a fundamentally swingy groove. Michael Flatley too, is pretty swingy when he plays his jigs but freely utilises breath accents to create syncopation on and off within the swing.
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by Eldarion
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Indeed, if you want to measure them, accenting and swinging are different, attack and length. But the music is more subtle than that. You can accent a note not just by hitting it harder, but also by coming in that little bit sooner. And vice verca of course. So the two are inextricably linked. And what the phantom was quite rightly pointing out was that if you have the bones of the tune straight, you have more freedom to accent where you want and how you want.
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
When you say that groove and accents are inextricably linked, I can agree in the sense that the music ultimately a whole and cannot be realistically disected apart. However I'm still not very convinced that if you have the bones of the tune straight you have more freedom to accent than if you were swinging. There are still notes that fall on the main beat and notes that don't fall on the main beat, and similar factors still have to be taken into account when accenting, whether your groove is straight or swingy. I mean you aren't actually free to accent any old how even if you play straight, it doesn't quite work like that.
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by Eldarion
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
When I was set-dancing, I wanted a steady pulse on the first and third beats. Admittedly the music and dancing have lost their erstwhile umbilical connection, but you can't go far wrong if you have that in the back of your mind. I'm interested in the idea that some players say you should always play on the 2nd and 4th. I can't offhand think of any reels I would expect to hear played like that. Can you give any examples?
# Posted on January 2nd 2006 by E
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Just to complicate things a bit, try looking for 8 "beats" in a four beat measure. Instead of counting "one-two-three-four" try "one-and-two-and-three-and-four-and." You will notice that some accents will follow along the lines of "ONE-and-two-and-THREE-and-four-and." Others you will hear "one-AND-two-and-three-AND-four-and."
Around here (where there is a lot of American old timey and country music influence) polkas and hornpipes are often played to emphasize the "ONE" and the "THREE." Reels seem to migrate toward the "AND" beats. That's not to say you can't end up with an accent on the 2nd or 4th beats. These are only general tendencies, but by changing the accent inside the beat soften make for more interesting music. Just make sure you're in sync with the rest of the musicians!
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by mandomac2
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
I'm with Eldarion on this one, and couldn't disagree with Phantom and Michael more (even if I wanted to).
There's nothing more annoying than when you're in a nice groovy session and someone comes in and steamrollers over the top of it with straight-as-a-ruler playing. Fair enough if you're a beginner and you haven't internalised the rhythm. We've all been there. But honestly, some people do this when they've been playing for decades and they should know better.
You shouldn't be thinking in terms of "accenting where you want". If you've got rhythm, the tunes accent themselves, and there's nothing to say that those accents necessarily happen on the backbeat in swingy playing. That's absolute rubbish and I can't believe I'm hearing it. Or seeing it or whatever.
If you're hell-bent on playing straight, please stop and think first. It's dance music. The dancers would want to have the time and space within the tune - at whatever speed! - to do their heel and toe stuff. Even if there aren't any dancers at your session, you should imagine that there are and let your fingers/bow/whatever dance, otherwise you've missed the point of it all. You might as well take up classical music, don a suit and sit and play in an orchestra, where you'll be more worried about where to start your rallentando than the intricacies of your rhythm.
I don't care how many of the celtowaft pros play straight, it just sounds crap, and I wish they'd realise that. I find that straight players tend to emphasize either the 1 & 3 or 2 & 4 depending on the player, incessantly, all the time, annoyingly, for every reel and hornpipe, all night, every session, like techno music or something. It's like, for god's sake, if I want that sort of vibe I'll go to a nightclub yeah? I'm sure they do it because it's the only way they can inject some sort of earthy pulse into their tunes. Or maybe they actually *want* to make the tunes sound horrible just so they can show how fast they can string those notes together. *Shudder*...
All the pros who are any good put swing in their tunes. Even players that sound like they're playing dead straight like some of the Donegal fiddlers *aren't* - they're swinging it beautifully but they're just playing really fast so it sounds as though it's straightened out. If you don't believe me go and listen to your CDs again, and if you still don't believe me try using software to slow it down, and if you *still* don't believe me then, well, I'm busy learning tunes so I haven't got time to make you see the point of the music. I just hope you don't ruin as many sessions without realising as I'm sure I have done myself, woe is me.
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by Dow
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Ah Dow, you speak so eloquently that is is easy for me to put my finger on our differences:
Firstly:
I'm afraid Stan (above) is right when he says, "the music and dancing have lost their erstwhile umbilical connection." Bemoan this fact or enjoy its liberation? You bemoan, I enjoy. And I'm sorry that you have to imagine your dancers. For your sake it would be much better if you didn't. It would be much better if the "umbilical" were still intact. However, the child was born and while keeping the greatest respect for its mother, it does its best to grow up.
Secondly:
I agree that "there is nothing more annoying than when you're in a nice groovy session and someone comes in and steamrollers over the top of it with straight-as-a-ruler playing". Except that is, when it's the other way around. Swinging playing is stronger playing that straight playing (one of the reasons dancers prefer it) and so stands up better when one out of five, say, goes against the grain. However, stronger doesn't mean better, and you'll agree here, it's more important to play with people than steamroller in with one's personal view of it. But any decent session I like to play in has an eclectic mix of straight and swing anyway. As you say, incessancy (of any kind) is annoying.
Thirdly:
It's all much more subtle than straight and swing anyway. It's the pushme-pullyou aspect of it where it comes into it's own. It's the subtle emphasizing (accent/anticipation/delay) of beats that lifts the music out of the realms of dance music. But you know this anyway; "the best ones who sound like they're playing straight, aren't."
I dug out a good obvious example, Liz Carrol's Lost in the Loop. The pushme-pullyou in the rhythm is immensely varied and controlled.
But perhaps you are missing some other of the "bests" when referring to them as "celtowafts" (what ever that means). Could you name and shame some of these players?
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Honestly, Dow... why must you always turn it into an 'us-vs-them' sort of thing. I've said on this thread and the one about swing that I like it both ways. For you to claim that everyone is playing with a swing -- even when their playing straight -- IS rubbish. For you to clam that no one plays straight is called, denial. What's more, people who play with a swing are just as capable of ruining a session as the other way around. That's why it’s handy to know the difference so one can attempt to blend in with whatever session they’re joining.
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
good man
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Seconds out...
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
"For you to claim that everyone is playing with a swing -- even when their playing straight -- IS rubbish. For you to clam that no one plays straight is called, denial."
Hey blindo read my post again I said "all the pros **who are any good** put swing in their tunes"
...And while I have your attention:
"why must you always turn it into an 'us-vs-them' sort of thing"
I wouldn't be me if I didn't
"What's more, people who play with a swing are just as capable of ruining a session as the other way around"
How true
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by Dow
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
"Bemoan this fact or enjoy its liberation? You bemoan, I enjoy."
Ok I'll bemoan then. I'm quite happy to bemoan. You go and be all jolly and happy-go-lucky if you like Michael. I can't imagine you moaning anyway.
"But perhaps you are missing some other of the "bests" when referring to them as "celtowafts" (what ever that means). Could you name and shame some of these players?"
No way, not here! Next time I get to Edinburgh we can talk about it over a pint maybe.
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by Dow
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
No probs Dow. Perhaps I didn't come accross right there. What I meant was, could you give us an example of a "famous" player, one we could all dig out a CD of, who you reckon to be playing "straight"?
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
I could give you plenty examples Michael, but I've basically said that they'd sound "crap" so I don't want to go on record saying stuff here, I mean god, would you?!
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by Dow
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
I think with "non famous" people I'd agree that slagging them here is a bit grim. But someone who makes their career from public performance and CD sales is a fair target. Everybody knows I think Martin Hayes plays mince, partly because he can't/won't play straight.
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Michael,
Martin Hayes spent many a year in ceilidhe bands, playing it straight, and I have heard him playing straightforward music in sessions. Don't judge the man's playing by that tiny snippet that has been captured on tape, or electrons, or whatever it is that captures recordings these days.
If you don't like the style exhibited on Lonesome Touch or some of his more lyrical albums, I can see your point, but just because it is not your cup of tea, don't condemn some good playing in a setting that pushes the boundaries of the tradition.
I guess I just proved Dow's point, that naming names can cause a backlash. (Although I doubt that you have any fear of backlashes of any sort, judging from your candor in past discussions!)
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Point taken. I'll re word it: From what I've heard of him, I think Martin Hayes plays mince, partly because, from what I've heard, he can't/won't play straight.
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
You and your Martin Hayes intolerance, Michael, it's practically a knee jerk response by now, isn't it? I was listening to Mr. Hayes play at a festival once. As Mr. Hayes and John Doyle ramped into and through his storming variations of Star of Munster, a friend turned to me in amazement, never having heard him play live before, and said, "Why the hell do people think Martin Hayes is boring?" I said, "F*ck all if I know."
# Posted on January 3rd 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
So Michael, (or anyone else of course) can you point me towards some of your favorite recordings of straight playing? Trying to make sure I understand exactly what we're talking about and before I get into it any further...
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by fiddleplayer
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Okay, if you don't mind, I'd like to take this a step further and actually ask Michael and Jack and whoever else likes straight playing:
*Why*?
What is there to like about it?
Please tell me because I'm genuinely interested to know. Does it make you want to dance, or do you get entranced by the swirly, confused string of adjacent notes?
Hmm yeah maybe that's it, because techno music is sort of like trance-inducing in the same way...
Have you any suggestions to help me appreciate the music? I'd like to be able to appreciate it because then I'd have an excuse to buy some more CDs instead of being so damn picky because I hate myself for that. Is there some sort of drug I can take like they do in clubs that heightens your appreciation for certain musical genres? I'm game for anything you know
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by Dow
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Dow, Michael already gave you examples on the swing thread. I named Frankie Gavin as someone who plays with a swing. I also mentioned how Frankie had to iron out his swing to play with Paddy Keenan. I've noticed that Kevin Crawford tends to play pretty evenly, and if my memory serves me right, Paddy O'Brien plays fairly straight. I remember Aiden Brennan explaining to me that when he was backing Paddy on guitar that he would think of the music in a checkerboard pattern to get it to sound right. He said that he does that with anyone that plays straight like that. I’ve also noticed that Altan played their stuff straight down the middle for the most part. Now if you want to put their music into some sort of hybrid Amazing Slowdowner and measure nanoseconds you might find the notes aren't perfectly even... go ahead. At least you'd stay out of trouble while you were bothering to do it.
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Curare.
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by joesmith
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Put the blow-gun down and step away from the monkey.
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Try the three sets of reels on Planxty's after the break album for terrific straight plaing. Matt Molloy and Liam O'Flynn on cracking form. The last set (can't remember the tune names) is not on the album, but it is on the CD.
I could name dozens, but I thought to point you in the direction of a readily available recording
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Oh I'm so sad that you mentioned that set. Yes, Liam O'Flynn starts out that last set on the CD with wonderful swing in his playing (Rolling Down The Hill), only to have it steamrollered right over the top of when they start the next tune (Chattering Magpie). Criminal. I used to love that set but it makes me wince now so I can't listen to it anymore. I wish they'd have just shut up and let L .O'F play the whole set solo and lose the faffy arrangement. As for Kevin Crawford and Altan, you'll find they swing slightly. That's why their rhythm sounds so tight. Not much. Just a bit. And no Phantom, I can hear it perfectly well without software. Altan swing it beautifully, Kevin Crawford: brilliant flashy stuff and amazing tone on flute, but not enough swing for my personal taste. But then I'm just picky.
# Posted on January 4th 2006 by Dow
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
I suppose the only way we'd get enough of a definitive answer to satisfy Dow would be to have these musicians testify in person. I could just see it now.
Crawford: Well... actually, I don't use swing really.
Dow: Yes you do!
On second thought -- personal testimony might not even be good enough for Dow.
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Actually no it's not. Sometimes what you perceive yourself to be playing or what you are *aiming* to play isn't actually what comes out. You must be one of the Kevin Crawford worshippers Jack. Fair play to you, he's technically brilliant and not many others could match his complex ornamentation, steady breath control and robust tone, but it's just not my cup of tea. There are flute players out there who aren't as good in terms of flashy techniques who I'd much rather listen to. It all boils down to personal taste I suppose.
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by Dow
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Always.
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
All I can say at this point is I'm sure glad I'm not hearing it the way Dow hears it.
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
At least I get to save money on CDs
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by Dow
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Well I'm confused. Liam O'Flynn plays that tune pretty darn straight to my ears
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
I'm listening to it now and there's no way it's consistently straight di-di-di-di like a machine gun. His rhythm's much more complex and subtle than that. It's the rhythm of the other bits like his rolls and crans where he swings it most, especially the bit in the A-part that goes |~A3B cBcd|ef (3gfe dg (3fgf| where to my ears it comes out almost in 12/8 like this |A2{B}A {G}A2B {d}c2B c2d|e2f gfe d2g fgf|. I think if it *was* consistently straight it wouldn't have been as effective. Unfortunately the backers force him to straighten out and by the end of the set they're all just playing a smooth string of notes. Skip back from that direct to the start of the track and you'll see what I mean.
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by Dow
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
"other bits", as in, there *are* straight bits, but it's the fact that swingy bits are present that make it good, in my opinion... - was what I was trying to say.
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by Dow
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
I'm at work. I don't have it right now. I'll give a good listen later.
But in the mean time:
Quote:
"It's all much more subtle than straight and swing anyway. It's the pushme-pullyou aspect of it where it comes into it's own. It's the subtle emphasizing (accent/anticipation/delay) of beats that lifts"
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Yes, I'd agree with that quote. There's no doubt listening to it that his rhythm is a really subtle mix of swung and straight and it's that inconsistent push/pull that's so exquisite.
What I've been talking about in this thread isn't really about that anyway, but more about people who play trad like a machine gun. I'm sure you know what I mean
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by Dow
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
yep. Let's try another track that I have on my Itunes right now. One of my faves, that big Rip the Calico big set on Out of the Wind into the Sun. Some of the tunes swing more than others, but none of them really swing. I'd say they are all played straight.
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Pretty straight yeah, but I still detect a tiny hint of swing in there, and that's what keeps them sounding like tunes and not just a string of notes. It's just that it's fast so any rhythmic push-pull is less noticeable. Lunasa have that same almost-straight-but-not-quite rhythm. Not enough swing for my personal taste, but hey, I've already slagged off Planxty and Kevin Crawford on one thread, might as well lay into your beloved Bothies while I'm at it eh
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by Dow
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
"my personal tatse" ?? Nae taste if you ask me
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing reels - accent on 1 & 3, or 2 & 4???
Hahaha that's your personal point of view though
Check your e-mail
# Posted on January 5th 2006 by Dow