So I just got a C#/D weltmeister button accordion and have been picking tunes out and experimenting with fingerings etc..
Its coming pretty easily but I was wondering if anyone can recomend some good books/videos/web pages with information on learning to play the instrument. I dont want to start off with bad habits or anything. The only thing I've found for C#/D tuning so far is the video by Peter Browne.
Thanks,
-Ben
Hi Ben! Welcome in the C#D accordion world!
I have a bad notice: there's not learning material around the C#D accordion, except the Browne video (VHS or DVD).
I know because I learning from 1 year and I have not found nothing! You can try with John Williams tutorial (Homespun records).
Someone he said to me that Peter Browne is for intermediate or advanced level, but I don't know exactly.
You can try to search a teacher in your area (where you can from?).
ah well, thanks anyways.
If anyone can give me some tips on the basics that would be great. I seem to allways fill the bellows with more air than I get rid of and end up qickly letting air out during a a quarter note or something. is this the right way to do it?
cheers,
-Ben
Don't worry about too much air in the bellows or running out of air. Just use the air button whenever necessary. You will more or less automatically become much more efficient with the air after a while. Maybe it also helps if you try to use as little bellows movement as possible and play softly.
And it also depends on the tunes. Some tunes/keys (on the B/C box often tunes in A) tend to use much more pull notes than push notes. The notes doubled in the two rows (i.e. those available on push and pull) come in handy, too, if you need a different bellows direction.
yes. Em for example seems to use a lot more pull notes (E, G and B ..your basic em arpegio) controlling the bellows is already much easyer after another day of messing around ;)
Can anyone help me with moving my hands between different positions? are there any tricks for "walking" your fingers up or down the buttons to get to the next higher or lower possition you'll need? And what fingers would you recomend for playing notes on the outside row. Maybe for example a Am arpegio (A,C,E) and a downward run of D,C,B.
Thanks a lot.
-Ben
There is no standard fingering for a particular note sequence. It all depends where your fingers have been previously and where they have to go afterwards.
You can slide between a key on the inside and a key on the outside easily using the same finger. Another method is exchanging the fingers on the same button while it is being pressed down. Let's say you come from a lower note and play a high note with your ring finger, but you still need to go higher up. So while playing that note with your ring finger, you bring your index finger in position next to it. Pull off the ring finger while the index slides in its place (the button remains pushed). It probably requires some practice to do this smoothly and at faster speeds.
Also, don't avoid using your pinky when you play. As the weakest link it probably needs most work to build up strength and the ability to move it independently. The distance between it and the keys tends to be the shortest and it happens easily that this little sucker comes down too early (result: uneven and accelerated tempo). It must be lifted up extra high and brought down very precisely (the same is true for the ring finger). You can practice this by placing your relaxed hand on a level surface and lifting each finger independly, one after the other, at regular intervals, up and down. First by having just one finger hit the surface, then by only liifting one finger up while the others maintain contact.
Now you're getting to the heart of the matter. I've found fingering patterns to be absolutely crucial in building up speed and fluency on the C#D box (probably for the BC also I imagine). I must say the best single tip I ever got in my early days of playing (from Jacko Kevans, R.I.P.) was to avoid overuse of the little finger.
Even though some of the jumps, especially in the G scale, seem quite daunting at first, the main 3 fingers are stronger and quicker and the little finger often (but not always) lets you down as you pick up the pace on a tune. In fact you could do worse than running up and down a few scales just using 2 fingers or 3 fingers to find out how well they actually perform without the pinky.
Also, have you looked at Hans Speek's excellent website featuring suggested C#D fingering charts for some well known tunes. http://www.xs4all.nl/~hspeek/irishbox/ ?
Oh no! I've cross posted with Heike and as you can clearly see I do have to disagree with her advice not to avoid the pinky.
Of course you will use it, probably somewhere in most tunes and especially for that high b note that the fiddlers use their pinky for as well. But I would most definitely stick with my original suggestion to avoid its overuse. I used it too much for several years and it never built up sufficient strength to play a leading role in faster tunes.
Yep, I found Hans Speek's page. its the only page with usefull information I've found for the box. Unfortunatly I cant read music. I already play some of the tunes on my cittern though so I can follow the fingerings he has for those ones.
I've been using my pinky alot. coming from cittern/mandolin its already trained enough to move around allright. it seems way more limiting to not use it.
Ah, so you decided on the C#/D eh, RumRebellion. Well, consider yourself shunned.
Just kidding.
I can't speak specifically about the C#/D, but I find I use the pinky most on high B's or A's, and often playing high e f# g triangle (which you don't have on C#/D) using my middle for the e, ring for the f# and pinky for the g. Oh, and I can now roll on the ring finger aswell as the middle finger, which uses the pinky of course.
I would definately try looking for a teacher in your area, what with the number of C#/D-er's around there may be one near you. And even a B/C teacher can probably help you out at least a bit.
"Are you all sure that the Peter Browne video is for the C#/D?"
Peter demonstrates everything on a B/C box but since what he is teaching are ornamentation techniques, pretty much everything applies to the C#/D as well.
It is very specifically focused on ornamentation and most of it is not, from my point of view as a farily recent convert to box squeezing, stuff a beginner needs to be worrying about.
About the "pinky" - Greg passed on to me Jacko Kevan's advice about deprecating the little finger. I thought this was daft and ignored it. But when another excellent box player gave exactly me the same advice, I decided to take it seriously and I now have to say, for me also, it has been the most valuable tip ever received.
A top Quebecois one-row player once told me something analagous - to practise playing tunes with only one finger, working on each finger in turn. He then proceeded to demonstrate the technique - on a reel!
I guess I see what you're saying. Being able to easily move anywhere on the fingerboard(?) could be more effient than being able to easily reach one single extra note.
By the way it was santa who decided that I should play C#/D ;) Gotta say he did a good job choosing.
what do you think are the advantages of *not* using the pinky? Because I find that little thing comes in pretty darn handy! I can see that you don't want to overuse it, but to go out of your way in order not to use it (i.e. shift your hand up or down when the pinky is in perfect position)?
You mentioned that your pinky wasn't strong enough for faster tunes, Greg. Is that the main point? Or are there other advantages?
Or does it boil down to (as so often in ITM): whatever works for you?
Heike, Firstly, I've no wish to be too prescriptive about this whole 'Pinky' issue. Sure, whatever works for you. go for it. Especially as you're playing on the BC system and my only experience is with C#D and before that GD. I know KJay has an excellent teacher for his BC, maybe she (his teacher) could enlighten us all on this question.
As to the C#D and the reasons for avoiding overuse of the 'pinky', at first, I really just accepted, on faith, advice from 3 or 4 excellent players I have known directly or indirectly. I have also studied quite closely DVD footage and video clips of top players in action. These include; Mairtin O'Connor, Joe Derraine and Andrew McNamara. Take Andrew McNamara as a typical example. You can download a clip of him playing O'Rourke's reel (AKA 'the wild irishman') from this link.
Looking closely at his fingers I'm fairly sure his pinky is only swung into action in one place during the whole tune. In part B for a high b note at the start of the 2nd last bar. (note: Roughly the same setting of the tune is notated here if it helps http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/90).
As to the rationale behind this seemingly counter-intuitive strategy, I've thought long and hard about it and am starting to conclude that it has everything to do with the aim of holding a good rhythm or pulse (esp. for reels, with emphasis on beats 1 and 3 in the bar) whilst giving clear expression to all your notes and still playing at the required speed. Not an easy job!
I've found using all 4 available fingers in a passage too often flattens out this pulse and often leads you into tight corners (with even more 'pinky' work to do) and/or enforced jumps which can fall in the wrong place rhythmically and make your playing sound jerky. Better, I think, to embrace this inevitable jumping around as an essential part of C#D box playing and put the jumps where you think they can assist your rhythm not hinder it. To me, anyway, this has meant exploring the amazing things you can do with your strongest and fastest 2 fingers and of course with 3rd as well. And, yes, sometimes the 'pinky' is in just the right place at the right time too.
Anyway, I've tried to answer your questions a bit Heike but I'm no expert. Maybe Steve can shed more light? BTW Rum, Santa did get it right. The C#D is the box with the 'bounce' alright, Just make sure you bounce it right I guess
Heike, I don't think I can add anything to Greg's excellent and well-reasoned analysis. If I had to sum up the rationale for “less pinky”, I'd say: mobility and confidence.
Like Greg I found the advice counter-intuitive but decided to give it a try when it was delivered to me in person by a brilliant player. I soon found it just opened up box playing to me - got me moving around the keyboard much more easily and confidently. Tricky passages for which I had used the pinky and which had always been hit-or-miss almost magically became reliable and confident.
I recently saw the John Williams tutorial, and unlike the good C#D players I've watched he does seem to use his little finger quite a bit. This might be a matter of the difference between BC and C#D technique, but perhaps not: the man who told me to stop using the fourth finger played BC for 20 years before switching to C#D about 5 years ago.
C#/D button accordion learning material
C#/D button accordion learning material
So I just got a C#/D weltmeister button accordion and have been picking tunes out and experimenting with fingerings etc..
Its coming pretty easily but I was wondering if anyone can recomend some good books/videos/web pages with information on learning to play the instrument. I dont want to start off with bad habits or anything. The only thing I've found for C#/D tuning so far is the video by Peter Browne.
Thanks,
-Ben
# Posted on December 26th 2005 by RumRebellion
Re: C#/D button accordion learning material
Hi Ben! Welcome in the C#D accordion world!
I have a bad notice: there's not learning material around the C#D accordion, except the Browne video (VHS or DVD).
I know because I learning from 1 year and I have not found nothing! You can try with John Williams tutorial (Homespun records).
Someone he said to me that Peter Browne is for intermediate or advanced level, but I don't know exactly.
You can try to search a teacher in your area (where you can from?).
All the best.
Silvio - Parma - Italy
# Posted on December 26th 2005 by SILVIO 64
Re: C#/D button accordion learning material
ah well, thanks anyways.
If anyone can give me some tips on the basics that would be great. I seem to allways fill the bellows with more air than I get rid of and end up qickly letting air out during a a quarter note or something. is this the right way to do it?
cheers,
-Ben
# Posted on December 27th 2005 by RumRebellion
Re: C#/D button accordion learning material
Don't worry about too much air in the bellows or running out of air. Just use the air button whenever necessary. You will more or less automatically become much more efficient with the air after a while. Maybe it also helps if you try to use as little bellows movement as possible and play softly.
And it also depends on the tunes. Some tunes/keys (on the B/C box often tunes in A) tend to use much more pull notes than push notes. The notes doubled in the two rows (i.e. those available on push and pull) come in handy, too, if you need a different bellows direction.
Have fun!
Heike
# Posted on December 27th 2005 by heike
Re: C#/D button accordion learning material
yes. Em for example seems to use a lot more pull notes (E, G and B ..your basic em arpegio) controlling the bellows is already much easyer after another day of messing around ;)
Can anyone help me with moving my hands between different positions? are there any tricks for "walking" your fingers up or down the buttons to get to the next higher or lower possition you'll need? And what fingers would you recomend for playing notes on the outside row. Maybe for example a Am arpegio (A,C,E) and a downward run of D,C,B.
Thanks a lot.
-Ben
# Posted on December 27th 2005 by RumRebellion
Re: C#/D button accordion learning material
There is no standard fingering for a particular note sequence. It all depends where your fingers have been previously and where they have to go afterwards.
You can slide between a key on the inside and a key on the outside easily using the same finger. Another method is exchanging the fingers on the same button while it is being pressed down. Let's say you come from a lower note and play a high note with your ring finger, but you still need to go higher up. So while playing that note with your ring finger, you bring your index finger in position next to it. Pull off the ring finger while the index slides in its place (the button remains pushed). It probably requires some practice to do this smoothly and at faster speeds.
Also, don't avoid using your pinky when you play. As the weakest link it probably needs most work to build up strength and the ability to move it independently. The distance between it and the keys tends to be the shortest and it happens easily that this little sucker comes down too early (result: uneven and accelerated tempo). It must be lifted up extra high and brought down very precisely (the same is true for the ring finger). You can practice this by placing your relaxed hand on a level surface and lifting each finger independly, one after the other, at regular intervals, up and down. First by having just one finger hit the surface, then by only liifting one finger up while the others maintain contact.
HTH!
Heike
# Posted on December 27th 2005 by heike
Re: C#/D button accordion learning material
Now you're getting to the heart of the matter. I've found fingering patterns to be absolutely crucial in building up speed and fluency on the C#D box (probably for the BC also I imagine). I must say the best single tip I ever got in my early days of playing (from Jacko Kevans, R.I.P.) was to avoid overuse of the little finger.
Even though some of the jumps, especially in the G scale, seem quite daunting at first, the main 3 fingers are stronger and quicker and the little finger often (but not always) lets you down as you pick up the pace on a tune. In fact you could do worse than running up and down a few scales just using 2 fingers or 3 fingers to find out how well they actually perform without the pinky.
Also, have you looked at Hans Speek's excellent website featuring suggested C#D fingering charts for some well known tunes. http://www.xs4all.nl/~hspeek/irishbox/ ?
# Posted on December 27th 2005 by greg.box
Re: C#/D button accordion learning material
Oh no! I've cross posted with Heike and as you can clearly see I do have to disagree with her advice not to avoid the pinky.
Of course you will use it, probably somewhere in most tunes and especially for that high b note that the fiddlers use their pinky for as well. But I would most definitely stick with my original suggestion to avoid its overuse. I used it too much for several years and it never built up sufficient strength to play a leading role in faster tunes.
# Posted on December 27th 2005 by greg.box
Re: C#/D button accordion learning material
Yep, I found Hans Speek's page. its the only page with usefull information I've found for the box. Unfortunatly I cant read music. I already play some of the tunes on my cittern though so I can follow the fingerings he has for those ones.
I've been using my pinky alot. coming from cittern/mandolin its already trained enough to move around allright. it seems way more limiting to not use it.
# Posted on December 27th 2005 by RumRebellion
Re: C#/D button accordion learning material
HI
are you all sure that the Peter Browne video is for the C#/D?
thanks
Paul
# Posted on December 27th 2005 by paul95
Re: C#/D button accordion learning material
Ah, so you decided on the C#/D eh, RumRebellion. Well, consider yourself shunned.
Just kidding.
I can't speak specifically about the C#/D, but I find I use the pinky most on high B's or A's, and often playing high e f# g triangle (which you don't have on C#/D) using my middle for the e, ring for the f# and pinky for the g. Oh, and I can now roll on the ring finger aswell as the middle finger, which uses the pinky of course.
I would definately try looking for a teacher in your area, what with the number of C#/D-er's around there may be one near you. And even a B/C teacher can probably help you out at least a bit.
Kjay
# Posted on December 27th 2005 by kjay_bc_box
Re: C#/D button accordion learning material
"Are you all sure that the Peter Browne video is for the C#/D?"
Peter demonstrates everything on a B/C box but since what he is teaching are ornamentation techniques, pretty much everything applies to the C#/D as well.
It is very specifically focused on ornamentation and most of it is not, from my point of view as a farily recent convert to box squeezing, stuff a beginner needs to be worrying about.
About the "pinky" - Greg passed on to me Jacko Kevan's advice about deprecating the little finger. I thought this was daft and ignored it. But when another excellent box player gave exactly me the same advice, I decided to take it seriously and I now have to say, for me also, it has been the most valuable tip ever received.
A top Quebecois one-row player once told me something analagous - to practise playing tunes with only one finger, working on each finger in turn. He then proceeded to demonstrate the technique - on a reel!
Steve
# Posted on December 27th 2005 by Jeeves Tones
Re: C#/D button accordion learning material
I guess I see what you're saying. Being able to easily move anywhere on the fingerboard(?) could be more effient than being able to easily reach one single extra note.
By the way it was santa who decided that I should play C#/D ;) Gotta say he did a good job choosing.
# Posted on December 28th 2005 by RumRebellion
Re: C#/D button accordion learning material
Steve and Greg,
what do you think are the advantages of *not* using the pinky? Because I find that little thing comes in pretty darn handy! I can see that you don't want to overuse it, but to go out of your way in order not to use it (i.e. shift your hand up or down when the pinky is in perfect position)?
You mentioned that your pinky wasn't strong enough for faster tunes, Greg. Is that the main point? Or are there other advantages?
Or does it boil down to (as so often in ITM): whatever works for you?
# Posted on December 28th 2005 by heike
Re: C#/D button accordion learning material
Heike, Firstly, I've no wish to be too prescriptive about this whole 'Pinky' issue. Sure, whatever works for you. go for it. Especially as you're playing on the BC system and my only experience is with C#D and before that GD. I know KJay has an excellent teacher for his BC, maybe she (his teacher) could enlighten us all on this question.
As to the C#D and the reasons for avoiding overuse of the 'pinky', at first, I really just accepted, on faith, advice from 3 or 4 excellent players I have known directly or indirectly. I have also studied quite closely DVD footage and video clips of top players in action. These include; Mairtin O'Connor, Joe Derraine and Andrew McNamara. Take Andrew McNamara as a typical example. You can download a clip of him playing O'Rourke's reel (AKA 'the wild irishman') from this link.
http://www.custysmusic.com/mall/CustysTraditionalMusicShop/the_lahawns_live_at_lenas.htm
Looking closely at his fingers I'm fairly sure his pinky is only swung into action in one place during the whole tune. In part B for a high b note at the start of the 2nd last bar. (note: Roughly the same setting of the tune is notated here if it helps http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/90).
As to the rationale behind this seemingly counter-intuitive strategy, I've thought long and hard about it and am starting to conclude that it has everything to do with the aim of holding a good rhythm or pulse (esp. for reels, with emphasis on beats 1 and 3 in the bar) whilst giving clear expression to all your notes and still playing at the required speed. Not an easy job!
I've found using all 4 available fingers in a passage too often flattens out this pulse and often leads you into tight corners (with even more 'pinky' work to do) and/or enforced jumps which can fall in the wrong place rhythmically and make your playing sound jerky. Better, I think, to embrace this inevitable jumping around as an essential part of C#D box playing and put the jumps where you think they can assist your rhythm not hinder it. To me, anyway, this has meant exploring the amazing things you can do with your strongest and fastest 2 fingers and of course with 3rd as well. And, yes, sometimes the 'pinky' is in just the right place at the right time too.
Anyway, I've tried to answer your questions a bit Heike but I'm no expert. Maybe Steve can shed more light? BTW Rum, Santa did get it right. The C#D is the box with the 'bounce' alright, Just make sure you bounce it right I guess
# Posted on December 28th 2005 by greg.box
Re: C#/D button accordion learning material
Heike, I don't think I can add anything to Greg's excellent and well-reasoned analysis. If I had to sum up the rationale for “less pinky”, I'd say: mobility and confidence.
Like Greg I found the advice counter-intuitive but decided to give it a try when it was delivered to me in person by a brilliant player. I soon found it just opened up box playing to me - got me moving around the keyboard much more easily and confidently. Tricky passages for which I had used the pinky and which had always been hit-or-miss almost magically became reliable and confident.
I recently saw the John Williams tutorial, and unlike the good C#D players I've watched he does seem to use his little finger quite a bit. This might be a matter of the difference between BC and C#D technique, but perhaps not: the man who told me to stop using the fourth finger played BC for 20 years before switching to C#D about 5 years ago.
Steve
# Posted on December 28th 2005 by Jeeves Tones