This is the first time I have ever written a letter to a thing like this. At first I wasn't going to bother. But I am so angry and annoyed I decided I had to.
Last Sunday after Mass, I was talking to a young lad in my piping class. It is a great privilege for me to be able to pass on the tradition. He asked me if i had ever heard of a tune, which he named. Now, I had never heard of it. As I have been playing this fifty years I was surprised. So I asked him where had he got it. On his computer he said. I was amazed. And is there much Irish music on the computer. And who on earth puts it there, I asked him. He told me there are people all over the world playing Irish music. And there are places where you can get tunes. As well as that there are places where people have discussions about the music.
Now, I am an old man. I have been playing music all that time. I am proud I have been able to do some small part to keep alive our beautiful music. I have seen much sorrow in our native land which we have withstood bravely, But I never thought I would live so long to have this last indignity thrust upon us: That we have people who are not Irish, have never been to Ireland a lot of them, playing our national music.
I tell you honestly. What you are doing is wrong and you must stop.
Now you may think that I am against people who are not Irish. That is not true. I see in Ireland today a thing I thought I would never see. Many people coming from all over the world to live here. I am glad to see them. There were millions of our own people who had to leave. They got rough treatment a lot of them. It is Ireland's turn to be generous and treat all people decently.
No. That is not the reason why you must stop playing our music. The reason is that you can't play it.
It is what it is: Irish music. It is the innermost thoughts of our people handed down through the generations. If you have not withstood the hammer blows of tyranny the music will mean nothing to you.
Not only that. the music is part of the country itself. Its crags and mosses. the barking of Irish dogs and lowing of Irish cattle have shaped and formed it. As I say to my pupils when they cannot get the lilt right of a jig 'Picture in your mind's eye now children, the fog drifting through the gorse and heather of Binn Earagail'. Because they are born with this and walk to school each day through it they grasp the point and play beautifully.
As well as that the music is only one thread in the shawl that is our culture. You cannot play our music unless you have the beautiful Irish language. It is obvious. The fact that I even have to discuss this with you, not in beautiful, rich, subtle gaeilge, but in this sub germanic doggerel of a language, English shows that you have no hope of ever playing Irish music.
I took some time on your 'site' as you call it to see what it is you talk about. Accompaniment? New instruments? Do you not even know that? There are five instruments in Irish music. Fiddle, pipes, flute, whistle and harp (the bodhran to, I suppose, but not too much of that. And I do not include the accordian. I do not care of it traditional or not. It sounds horrible.
The player should know the name of the tune, in Irish, what it is in English is not important. He should have the history of the tune the stories associated with it and its origination. Unless he has them he cannot play the tune. The instruments should be played on thier own, one tune at a time. On a rare occasion is it permissible for instruments to play together.
So there you have it. That is everything you need to know, so there is no more need of discussions. Stop yer nonsense!
Well, will you Irish please stop stealing Scottish, Shetland, Canadian and elsewhere reels, English hornpipes, Polish mazurkas, German germans, central European polkas. You can have the rest.
Just in case there is the remotest possibility of the above post not being a wind up, I'll just say that I intend to continue playing Irish and other tunes from whatever source I can find them on whatever instrument and style I like subject to good taste, of course, and the feelings of those around me at the time. Have a niiiiiice day.
Sorry - had to clear the crumbs off the keyboard first.
Dear Mr Pillock OConcubine
Your downfalls are four:
1 - the name
2 - "Last Sunday after Mass" - now how can we make this sound authentic Irish.
3 - "a lad in my piping class" - no, you spend the whole letter railing against modert things. If you were real, it might be a young lad you were teaching, but not a "piping class"
4 - "Stop YER nonsense" - shame really, after such a nicely written letter to slip into the "lets imitate a hollywood irish accent" mode.
It was nicely done though, must have taken your whole lunchtime at the office.
Well ... OK if you insist and I guess this means I have to give up Tuvan throat music and trash my Koto. I guess I'll go back to endless hours of singing Goober Peas accompanied by shaky egg and sousaphone ... apparently the only true "American" instruments available to us "pretenders"
Go figure. Down here in Australia, the various Irish communities around the place are more than encouraging to people who want to learn to play their style of folk music. Most Irish clubs teach them, pro bono.
As an ethnic group, the Irish in Australia have always have been like that. They seem to really dig it that people, of all ethnicities, want to get into this aspect of their culture.
As for me, sir, I absolutely love it, and can't stop listening to and playing it. At the same time, I am 100% aware that the real Irish folk gets played in Ireland. To me it's a genre of music, to them it's a statement of their culture. I appreciate that.
what a load os codswallop.....................but on the off chance thats its for real let me just say i also am irish and i have absolutely no prob watsoever with any "not irish" people playin the music and posting tunes on the internet.if your interested in playin irish music then ur irish enough for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have to say did they really think it would be believed???im glad that i can say that i know NOBODY would actually have that opinion.what a load of pants.
How likely is it, do you suppose, that someone whose ignorance of the modern world is so vast that he doesn't know a)that people are playing Irish music all over the world or b)that tunes are posted on the internet, but still he could figure out how to log onto a computer, find this site, register and post a message?
And furthermore they play the Music wearing "T shirts" and "jeans", after a meal which has included neither praties nor buttermilk nor boxty nor colcannon, and they do not live in the whitewashed cottage on the left as you go down the glen,nor do they beat their donkeys with blackthorn sticks, and sorra the dhrop passes their lips in the dark nights after Samhain.
What is holy Ireland (either the poor lost Sick Counties, or the Free State of Error) coming to?
Will H beat me to the punch with his comment--when Ireland stops borrowing music from elsewhere, we who live elsewhere can stop borrowing music from them. After all, many in Ireland value country-western music a lot more than I do!
Besides, if you really want to do a good windup, you should establish the screen name a few weeks ahead of time, and develop some sort of a history and favorite tunes library--this one just doesn't ring true.
5 instruments now is it? Packie Byrne's father wouldn't have considered it real music unless it were played on the fiddle.
The Irish have only themselves to blame of course. If Patrick's spiritual descendants hadn't sallied forth across the remains of the Roman Empire teaching people how to sing then they wouldn't be clamouring to play Irish music.
I suppose my ancestors forewent the right to pass their own music down the generations when they went in search of work. Those gallant folk who chose to stay behind living on the remittances of their brothers and sisters are the only rightful inheritors of the music.
I guess this guy means that I should stop playing the music on a wheezy concertina here in America, while standing on my head and reciting backwards the names of famous Irish patriots and musicians?
Geoff no it's not me. Me is too busy studying to have the time to write stuff like this I bet it wouldn't take me long to guess who it is from the writing style tho.
I especially loved this bit:
"...Its crags and mosses. the barking of Irish dogs and lowing of Irish cattle have shaped and formed it. As I say to my pupils when they cannot get the lilt right of a jig 'Picture in your mind's eye now children, the fog drifting through the gorse and heather of Binn Earagail'."
I heard it was the pipes that girl's shouldn't play, on account of the one arm doing all the pumping and the consequent over-development of the 'ahem', chest-muscles on that side, and the consequent lopsidedness leading to 'marital difficulties'.
At least that's what moloney told me on the way back from school.
I'm glad no-one took this seriously at all. We all reckon this is a wind up. And as much as I like having a laugh, one thing slightly worries me. I'm sorry to be an old po-faced politically correct killjoy on this one, but the stereotype adopted here is one of a senior gent in Ireland with rigid fixed views and who knows next to nothing about the outside world or what goes on on the internet. Although there may still be some people like that around (as well as in UK or anywhere), it just seems a bit too much of an ould Paddy stereotype. But if this guy IS real, then I reckon he is in the minority among senior musicians in Ireland, and has never been to a festival or a fleadh. Cos all of the older musicians I've evr met or played with have NEVER voiced any such sentiment. Am I taking it too seriously?
This guy doesn't sound like any real life musician I've ever encountered. Everyone I've met is ridiculously encouraging and excited about people from all over the world getting involved in the music.
Hmmm.... and if the music is to be played by people who "withstood the hammer blows of tyranny," then people of my generation in Ireland better stop playing now as well. Ireland is doing so well these days that they need to stop playing Irish music there, period.
Hrmm, I think I've heard of a piper named Phillip O'Connor/Pilib O'Conchubhair. Maybe he's pictured in the Seamus Ennis tutor? I'll go have a look-see.
He could be borrowing his mate's (is that the term?) computer. Or the computer belonging to the student he mentioned.
What are we speaking in? "sub germanic doggerel of a language." Yah Vol!
Secondly, it may not be a "wind up", I have met quite a few people like that. There are a lot of that kind still in Ireland, mostly in the West and Donegal. Let's face it, didn't these people elect Dana (All Kinds of Everything") to the European parliament. The name means Philip O'Connor, he lives near Errigal mountain, close to Dunlewey, home of the Frankie Kennedy winter school. Maybe all the "foreigners" at that annoy him?
I like it that you all immediately decided it was a wind-up, then the faithless started to waver and become indignant. Be resolute; this is one of the better spoofs around, only marred by one or two inconsistencies already noticed.
---As I walked down a shady lane, wid me shtick in me hand and munchin' a pratie (wid me other hand), who should I spy-----
I'm of Scots and German descent. I think there may be a tiny smidgen of Irish in my descent, but I'm not sure. And I don't really care. The music was written to be enjoyed. Sharing it isn't wrong. Keeping people from playing it because they weren't born and bred in County Sligo? That's wrong.
Oldstrings - I haven't wavered. I still think it's a wind up. I just can't believe people like that actually still, if they ever did, exist. I've never met any musician of that vintage etc, who have ever expressed any antipathy towards me or other non-native-Irish playing the music. As I said, if it is a wind up as I think, it's not done in the best of taste. So where is our Pilib now, why doesn't he reply? If he's real, his views are so ridiculous that everyone thinks he can't be real. What a ridiculous notion, you have to have suffered or whatever to play the music properly.
I dunno, Danny, no doubt it's my lack of suffering that leaves me reaching and coming up empty every time I try to put the proper nyaah, the soul, the draoicht into the Concertina Reel.....
You poor thing Will, you've never suffered. (?)
Ach well, there's no hope for you obviously.
:-}
I know your views on the Concertina Reel. I quite like it actually. Not complex, but what I call a "driver" of a tune.
I think everyone who drives through Donegal suffers nowadays - cause you can't go anywhere without seeing those dreadful 'Spanish Haciendas' they've built absolutely everywhere a nightmare - they look feckin' awful!
I'm all for folks having all the mod cons, but give me a break, there just had to be a better way then that!
There have obviously been a lot of 'brown envelopes' changing hands!
Can't you just picture John Doherty fiddlin' on an old rockin' chair on the front porch of one of those monstrosity!
Yep, Ptarm, with you there, Brown Envelopes and greedy basterts all round. Sad to see Ireland getting destroyed like it is, but no need to take it out on the music (NOT that I believe the wind-up, of course.)
Firstly- fair play to whoever-you-are if this IS a windup. (chuckle)
Secondly- if this is NOT a windup, as has been mentioned above, I'm sure our esteemed friend does not speak for all or even the majority of Irish musicians.
Thirdly- as much as I hate to admit it, this post does carry some real truth. By NO means do I agree with the Right Honorable Gentleman's views; however, we can all call to mind incidents and encounters with what I have come to call the "McTrad" or "RiverTrad" epidemic. By this I am referring to the waterering down, taking-out-of-context, misunderstanding, misrepresentation, commercialization, and in some cases Americanization of the Irish culture and idiom. Two examples, your honors:
Exhibit "A" : American tourist family in Ireland; children growing restless and bored; father, dismayed at not finding green beer on tap, reluctantly sips Iegitimate brews until he spills some on his vibrant cliche t-shirt purchased at the Aer Lingus Duty-Free, emblazoned with the hopeless slogan "Tis Himself". Frantically, in an attempt to restore family order and establish himself as Someone "In-the-Know", he strides boldy and brazenly to the musos and implores them to play ... "The Irish Jig".
Exhibit "B" : "Irish Fest" in Sunbury, Pennsylvania, USA. In the Big Tent: John Doyle, headline act; some thirty people in attendance. Most are elderly women whose only connection to anything Irish are some old Hal Roach and Irish Rovers records. John nears the end of the first hot set of tunes and songs, all traditional, but of course with a bit of Doylian groove thrown in! I kid you not- one such lady, between gulps of her Genuine Irish Potato Pancakes and Guinness Stew, ejaculated the following request: "PLAY US AN IRISH SONG!"
So there. Irish people have some legitimate reasons to be wary of Americans, especially the uninitiated, "stealing" or "perverting" their music. A few bad apples spoil the whole barrel. But to say that the interest in and adoption of Irish music in foreign countries is "wrong" is misguided nativism. Tell Junji Shirota that he should stop playing, forget the tunes? Tell Belgian session-goers they don't belong? Malarkey.
I am 1/32 Irish does that count. I feel, Pilib, That instead of bringing us down, you should rather encourage those who celebrate your culture. Now, I could never say I have suffered the traumas some Irish have, but I read, and try to become as familiar as I can with the true spirit of the music, while incorperating in ME. Is that wrong? That I love your culture? That my sad attempts at Gaelic drive the native speakers nuts? If the language and culture were dying, and Comhaltas did much to bring it back, and let me in too? My life revolves around it
That can't change.
Personally I think much of Irish culture is regretable and I'd probably have to kill myself if forced to adopt it (not that I'm particularly fond of my "native" culture either). With the political tyrany gone it is now dysfunctional. The religious tyrany has become so firmly established that it isn't even recongnzied as tyrany anymore.
I have no desire whatsoever to become psuedo Irish and East Durham rather creeps me out.
The music, however, is grand. So are the chunky jumpers, even though they're modern and commercial trade stuff with a faked up "history."
I'm perfectly happy playing some while wearing one. I like potatoes a whole lot too.
interesting title, seeing that only a small "PIECE" of mind must have actually been used... it's wierd that the county of choice for "yer" man was Donegal.
many of our tunes here are from the likes of john doherty, the deargs etc... and it would be impossible i'm sure for philib to not know that the vast majority of donegal music in fact came from scotland. much of the rest of it would have been composed by local musicians or adapted from other tunes found through out ireland.
if your statement is true, then ourselves in donegal are the worst shower of trad wreakers the nation has ever seen and therefore in no possition to condem other people for their adaption, love, and replication of it.
thing about the music is that it is a tool for expressing the soul, if ALL that comes out is crags and mosses, well then, i'd be asking myself some serious questions....
point of note to rest of world: we're not all like this in donegal.
All the best,
Máirtín ó Touruisce, Martin Tourish, Máirtín Tourish, M.T. whatever you like. the purpose of language is communication. still the same person.
The mind boggles at this guy's logic. Imagine if all cultures stuck to their own indiginous music types, we would never have heard the likes of Rory Gallagher, Eric Clapton etc. playing the Blues, Jules Holland playing Boogie Woogie....would Elvis have become King given his background and association with perceived 'Black' music? The list is endless and the more you add to the list the more you realise how narrow minded and selfish the main contributor appears.
It just sounds crazy that because you haven't suffered as much as us you shouldn't be allowed to play our music.
Everybody, from all walks of life and regardless of their land of birth experiences hardship at one time or another in their life. It is not an exclusive club.
rgds
PeterOC
(no relation....same County, different mountains!)
It is not just Yanks who ask "Play an Irish song?" after a few sets of reels and jigs. It happens quite often in N.Ireland.
When it happens we launch into that well known English song about Salford, "Dirty Old Town". This cheers them up, because they love Irish songs, can sing along, and even argue about whether the song is about Belfast or Dublin.
It is things like that which make me wonder whether the original posting was a wind up or not.
LOL! I'd agree with David, even though I didn't, in fact, do just that. However, he's just saying that about the elderly because he's gettin' on himself.
Brilliant wind up. Except for the logical inconsistency that anyone espousing these views wouldn't bother finding the session and wouldn't know how to log on anyway. Which leads us to the question, who has been breaking the rules and creating a second identity. It isn't Dow, because he would have generated an argument with himself.
"The barking of Irish dogs and lowing of Irish cattle have shaped and formed it".
I've been listening to my Irish Water Spaniel for seven years now, so I think I must be fully qualified.
But isn't this fun? When did you all last feel so provoked?
Well how can he be an Irish Water Spaniel if he's not from Ireland? He wouldn't know the language. Also, I'd say if he's from Alberta, he has not suffered enought to be an IRISH Water Spaniel. Maybe Canadian, though.
This is a stereotype. It is none the worse for that. Stereotyoes can be funny. and, by extending the logic of the argument, it often demonstrates how ludicrous the original premise is.
The argument here is daft. To say that the music a people produce is a product of thier experience is stating the obvious. That is a very different thing from saying that without the experience you cannot play the music. Heinrich Schiff is the greatest current interpreter of Bach. I do not know him. But it appears unlikely he ilved in late medieval Germany.
Ditto for the language. I personally love playing the music and speaking Irish. But it is not essential. And it does not determine the quality of your playing. Do you need to speak
French to play Debussy?
People without the cultural experience or language can play the music in a way that is meaningful, fun, important, brilliant and true.
Fair play. No one should be offended by a bit of craic.
Nice one Pilib, you didn't have me fooled, but there were a couple of waverers. You got a good run for your money on this one. You must've sat back and watch it all unfold, wee-weeing yourself with laffter.
Just to repeat from the other thread, a very good reason occurred to me why Pilib's A Piece of my Mind is a hoax. If this young pupil of his goes on this website, he surely would have rallied to Pilib's defence by now. Otherwise he wouldn't be worth his salt as a student - no loyalty to his master, and that wouldn't seem likely.
So there you have it - hoax.
Would a distinguished older gentleman really spell things in such a way that it exaggerates that Irish Spring Soap commercial phony accent? Please.
Also, since when is the flute exclusively a traditional Irish instrument? It hasn't really even been around for that long in comparison to other Trad. instruments.
Probably the main reason that America, Canada, Australia, etc. have ITM is because the Irish brought it there. A twenty something year old living in present day Ireland has probably suffered no more than a child who grew up in an American ghetto. I would think that, if our Irish-American ancestors could see us today, they'd be mighty proud to see us keeping their traditions alive.... this topic was amusing but full of crap
I personally think these two went pretty well. A well done spoof, nearly had a few of the seasonned hard cases on here going, plenty of laughs as well, and even made us think about our relationship to the music we play. As BB said, there ARE some fossils like Pilib *really* roaming the streets and the sessions and fleadhanna of Ireland. They must hate Bobby Casey and Maitin Byrnes and John King and Paddy Hayes.
A piece of my mind
A piece of my mind
This is the first time I have ever written a letter to a thing like this. At first I wasn't going to bother. But I am so angry and annoyed I decided I had to.
Last Sunday after Mass, I was talking to a young lad in my piping class. It is a great privilege for me to be able to pass on the tradition. He asked me if i had ever heard of a tune, which he named. Now, I had never heard of it. As I have been playing this fifty years I was surprised. So I asked him where had he got it. On his computer he said. I was amazed. And is there much Irish music on the computer. And who on earth puts it there, I asked him. He told me there are people all over the world playing Irish music. And there are places where you can get tunes. As well as that there are places where people have discussions about the music.
Now, I am an old man. I have been playing music all that time. I am proud I have been able to do some small part to keep alive our beautiful music. I have seen much sorrow in our native land which we have withstood bravely, But I never thought I would live so long to have this last indignity thrust upon us: That we have people who are not Irish, have never been to Ireland a lot of them, playing our national music.
I tell you honestly. What you are doing is wrong and you must stop.
Now you may think that I am against people who are not Irish. That is not true. I see in Ireland today a thing I thought I would never see. Many people coming from all over the world to live here. I am glad to see them. There were millions of our own people who had to leave. They got rough treatment a lot of them. It is Ireland's turn to be generous and treat all people decently.
No. That is not the reason why you must stop playing our music. The reason is that you can't play it.
It is what it is: Irish music. It is the innermost thoughts of our people handed down through the generations. If you have not withstood the hammer blows of tyranny the music will mean nothing to you.
Not only that. the music is part of the country itself. Its crags and mosses. the barking of Irish dogs and lowing of Irish cattle have shaped and formed it. As I say to my pupils when they cannot get the lilt right of a jig 'Picture in your mind's eye now children, the fog drifting through the gorse and heather of Binn Earagail'. Because they are born with this and walk to school each day through it they grasp the point and play beautifully.
As well as that the music is only one thread in the shawl that is our culture. You cannot play our music unless you have the beautiful Irish language. It is obvious. The fact that I even have to discuss this with you, not in beautiful, rich, subtle gaeilge, but in this sub germanic doggerel of a language, English shows that you have no hope of ever playing Irish music.
I took some time on your 'site' as you call it to see what it is you talk about. Accompaniment? New instruments? Do you not even know that? There are five instruments in Irish music. Fiddle, pipes, flute, whistle and harp (the bodhran to, I suppose, but not too much of that. And I do not include the accordian. I do not care of it traditional or not. It sounds horrible.
The player should know the name of the tune, in Irish, what it is in English is not important. He should have the history of the tune the stories associated with it and its origination. Unless he has them he cannot play the tune. The instruments should be played on thier own, one tune at a time. On a rare occasion is it permissible for instruments to play together.
So there you have it. That is everything you need to know, so there is no more need of discussions. Stop yer nonsense!
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by Pilib O'Conchubhair
Re: A piece of my mind
Well, will you Irish please stop stealing Scottish, Shetland, Canadian and elsewhere reels, English hornpipes, Polish mazurkas, German germans, central European polkas. You can have the rest.
This has to be a wind up.
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: A piece of my mind
Yet another windup.
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by Pied Piper
Re: A piece of my mind
You almost had me fooled there.
Just in case there is the remotest possibility of the above post not being a wind up, I'll just say that I intend to continue playing Irish and other tunes from whatever source I can find them on whatever instrument and style I like subject to good taste, of course, and the feelings of those around me at the time. Have a niiiiiice day.
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by Johannes J
Re: A piece of my mind
He should have put a half-dozen tunes in his tunebook. That would have been a funny touch.
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by srt19170
Re: A piece of my mind
Just in case there is the remotest possibility of the above post not being a wind up, Feck off
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: A piece of my mind
Sorry - had to clear the crumbs off the keyboard first.
Dear Mr Pillock OConcubine
Your downfalls are four:
1 - the name
2 - "Last Sunday after Mass" - now how can we make this sound authentic Irish.
3 - "a lad in my piping class" - no, you spend the whole letter railing against modert things. If you were real, it might be a young lad you were teaching, but not a "piping class"
4 - "Stop YER nonsense" - shame really, after such a nicely written letter to slip into the "lets imitate a hollywood irish accent" mode.
It was nicely done though, must have taken your whole lunchtime at the office.
Dave
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: A piece of my mind
I did initially think of simply posting "Bollox", but I thought better of it.
PP
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by Pied Piper
Re: A piece of my mind
Well ... OK if you insist and I guess this means I have to give up Tuvan throat music and trash my Koto. I guess I'll go back to endless hours of singing Goober Peas accompanied by shaky egg and sousaphone ... apparently the only true "American" instruments available to us "pretenders"
SteveB
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by stevebenn
Re: A piece of my mind
Verrry interesting ... but stupid!
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by Ottery
Re: A piece of my mind
Go figure. Down here in Australia, the various Irish communities around the place are more than encouraging to people who want to learn to play their style of folk music. Most Irish clubs teach them, pro bono.
As an ethnic group, the Irish in Australia have always have been like that. They seem to really dig it that people, of all ethnicities, want to get into this aspect of their culture.
As for me, sir, I absolutely love it, and can't stop listening to and playing it. At the same time, I am 100% aware that the real Irish folk gets played in Ireland. To me it's a genre of music, to them it's a statement of their culture. I appreciate that.
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by Deaf Frets
Re: A piece of my mind
Dow! Is this you?
Now I've stopped laughing .....get on with your PhD
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: A piece of my mind
give you 5 to 1 odds on this is a wind up.
if not, fair play to the man for spending the time and contributing his views,bt in think il stick with playing the tunes.
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by aaron b
Re: A piece of my mind
I'll stop playing Irish music when the Irish drop their craze for American Country Western.
Come to think of it, that's not such a bad bargain....
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: A piece of my mind
Aren't the Irish forgetting that its not their music - it's the fairies that gave it to them (if they still beleive in that legend/myth).
It could dow - this philib guy talks a lot and so does dow so who knows?
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by flamin fiddler
Re: A piece of my mind
what a load os codswallop.....................but on the off chance thats its for real let me just say i also am irish and i have absolutely no prob watsoever with any "not irish" people playin the music and posting tunes on the internet.if your interested in playin irish music then ur irish enough for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have to say did they really think it would be believed???im glad that i can say that i know NOBODY would actually have that opinion.what a load of pants.
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by person
Re: A piece of my mind
LOL, that's the best windup i've seen on this site so far!
PJA
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by ecidralla
Re: A piece of my mind
How likely is it, do you suppose, that someone whose ignorance of the modern world is so vast that he doesn't know a)that people are playing Irish music all over the world or b)that tunes are posted on the internet, but still he could figure out how to log onto a computer, find this site, register and post a message?
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by cuchulain54
Re: A piece of my mind
And furthermore they play the Music wearing "T shirts" and "jeans", after a meal which has included neither praties nor buttermilk nor boxty nor colcannon, and they do not live in the whitewashed cottage on the left as you go down the glen,nor do they beat their donkeys with blackthorn sticks, and sorra the dhrop passes their lips in the dark nights after Samhain.
What is holy Ireland (either the poor lost Sick Counties, or the Free State of Error) coming to?
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by LastToFinish
Re: A piece of my mind
Will H beat me to the punch with his comment--when Ireland stops borrowing music from elsewhere, we who live elsewhere can stop borrowing music from them. After all, many in Ireland value country-western music a lot more than I do!
Besides, if you really want to do a good windup, you should establish the screen name a few weeks ahead of time, and develop some sort of a history and favorite tunes library--this one just doesn't ring true.
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: A piece of my mind
5 instruments now is it? Packie Byrne's father wouldn't have considered it real music unless it were played on the fiddle.
The Irish have only themselves to blame of course. If Patrick's spiritual descendants hadn't sallied forth across the remains of the Roman Empire teaching people how to sing then they wouldn't be clamouring to play Irish music.
I suppose my ancestors forewent the right to pass their own music down the generations when they went in search of work. Those gallant folk who chose to stay behind living on the remittances of their brothers and sisters are the only rightful inheritors of the music.
Are they crap!
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by Paul_draper
Re: A piece of my mind
I guess this guy means that I should stop playing the music on a wheezy concertina here in America, while standing on my head and reciting backwards the names of famous Irish patriots and musicians?
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by gravelwalks
Re: A piece of my mind
Geoff no it's not me. Me is too busy studying to have the time to write stuff like this
I bet it wouldn't take me long to guess who it is from the writing style tho.
I especially loved this bit:
"...Its crags and mosses. the barking of Irish dogs and lowing of Irish cattle have shaped and formed it. As I say to my pupils when they cannot get the lilt right of a jig 'Picture in your mind's eye now children, the fog drifting through the gorse and heather of Binn Earagail'."
And the "shawl" bit as well. Great stuff
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by Dow
Re: Pog Mo Thoin
...one of my favorite bands. Oh, wrong thread. Apologies.
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by TiiiM
Re: A piece of my mind
dear philib - don't be so bloody selfish!
and, TWBAEM - i play flute, and i just failed my first exam at uni, so maybe it's true!
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by flisstle
Re: A piece of my mind
I heard it was the pipes that girl's shouldn't play, on account of the one arm doing all the pumping and the consequent over-development of the 'ahem', chest-muscles on that side, and the consequent lopsidedness leading to 'marital difficulties'.
At least that's what moloney told me on the way back from school.
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by Ottery
Re: A piece of my mind
So that's my problem. I'd better quit.
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by TheSilverSpear
Re: A piece of my mind
I'm glad no-one took this seriously at all. We all reckon this is a wind up. And as much as I like having a laugh, one thing slightly worries me. I'm sorry to be an old po-faced politically correct killjoy on this one, but the stereotype adopted here is one of a senior gent in Ireland with rigid fixed views and who knows next to nothing about the outside world or what goes on on the internet. Although there may still be some people like that around (as well as in UK or anywhere), it just seems a bit too much of an ould Paddy stereotype. But if this guy IS real, then I reckon he is in the minority among senior musicians in Ireland, and has never been to a festival or a fleadh. Cos all of the older musicians I've evr met or played with have NEVER voiced any such sentiment. Am I taking it too seriously?
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: A piece of my mind
This guy doesn't sound like any real life musician I've ever encountered. Everyone I've met is ridiculously encouraging and excited about people from all over the world getting involved in the music.
Hmmm.... and if the music is to be played by people who "withstood the hammer blows of tyranny," then people of my generation in Ireland better stop playing now as well. Ireland is doing so well these days that they need to stop playing Irish music there, period.
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by TheSilverSpear
Re: A piece of my mind
Hrmm, I think I've heard of a piper named Phillip O'Connor/Pilib O'Conchubhair. Maybe he's pictured in the Seamus Ennis tutor? I'll go have a look-see.
He could be borrowing his mate's (is that the term?) computer. Or the computer belonging to the student he mentioned.
What are we speaking in? "sub germanic doggerel of a language." Yah Vol!
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by Kevin Rietmann
Re: A piece of my mind
Very funny! and surely too silly to be meant as a malicious stereotype.
Can we have some more characters, or is it against the rules.
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by S1obhan
Re: A piece of my mind
'Pilib O'Conchubhair', can I just refer you to this thread:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/8642
Get it?
- GO AWAY!
# Posted on December 13th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: A piece of my mind
Firstly it wasn't me.
Secondly, it may not be a "wind up", I have met quite a few people like that. There are a lot of that kind still in Ireland, mostly in the West and Donegal. Let's face it, didn't these people elect Dana (All Kinds of Everything") to the European parliament. The name means Philip O'Connor, he lives near Errigal mountain, close to Dunlewey, home of the Frankie Kennedy winter school. Maybe all the "foreigners" at that annoy him?
Thirdly, it's crap.
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: A piece of my mind
I like it that you all immediately decided it was a wind-up, then the faithless started to waver and become indignant. Be resolute; this is one of the better spoofs around, only marred by one or two inconsistencies already noticed.
---As I walked down a shady lane, wid me shtick in me hand and munchin' a pratie (wid me other hand), who should I spy-----
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by oldstrings
Re: A piece of my mind
I'm of Scots and German descent. I think there may be a tiny smidgen of Irish in my descent, but I'm not sure. And I don't really care. The music was written to be enjoyed. Sharing it isn't wrong. Keeping people from playing it because they weren't born and bred in County Sligo? That's wrong.
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by Zazzaliss
Re: A piece of my mind
Nicely done, Ptarmigan... by the way, what's a wind up?
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by Zazzaliss
Re: A piece of my mind
Oldstrings - I haven't wavered. I still think it's a wind up. I just can't believe people like that actually still, if they ever did, exist. I've never met any musician of that vintage etc, who have ever expressed any antipathy towards me or other non-native-Irish playing the music. As I said, if it is a wind up as I think, it's not done in the best of taste. So where is our Pilib now, why doesn't he reply? If he's real, his views are so ridiculous that everyone thinks he can't be real. What a ridiculous notion, you have to have suffered or whatever to play the music properly.
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: A piece of my mind
I dunno, Danny, no doubt it's my lack of suffering that leaves me reaching and coming up empty every time I try to put the proper nyaah, the soul, the draoicht into the Concertina Reel.....
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: A piece of my mind
my middle name is "Patrick"...does that count for anything?
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by Sunnybear
Re: A piece of my mind
Not unless you spell it Padráig....
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: A piece of my mind
You poor thing Will, you've never suffered. (?)
Ach well, there's no hope for you obviously.
:-}
I know your views on the Concertina Reel. I quite like it actually. Not complex, but what I call a "driver" of a tune.
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: A piece of flannery o'briennery
'i do not relish
the mad clack of humans
sweeter warble of the bird
in the place where he is.
i like not the trumpeting
heard at morn;
sweeter hearing is the squeal
of badgers in Benna Broc.'
if only Brian Ó Nualláin could be with us now...
maybe he is
i like not the keening
of the reel concertine
sweeter by far
is the happy screech
of nails on blackboard
sorry,Danny,i'm with Will on that one!
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by biggus dave
Re: A piece of my mind
I've never suffered either, but when I play, I make sure others do.
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by cuchulain54
Re: A piece of my mind
must be a fiddle thing, then.
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: A piece of my mind
The only suffering anyone in Donegal under the age of 90 has done, has been inflicted by Dublin governments, speaking English.
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: A piece of my mind
I think everyone who drives through Donegal suffers nowadays - cause you can't go anywhere without seeing those dreadful 'Spanish Haciendas' they've built absolutely everywhere a nightmare - they look feckin' awful!
I'm all for folks having all the mod cons, but give me a break, there just had to be a better way then that!
There have obviously been a lot of 'brown envelopes' changing hands!
Can't you just picture John Doherty fiddlin' on an old rockin' chair on the front porch of one of those monstrosity!
Bleagh.............
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: A piece of my mind
Yep, Ptarm, with you there, Brown Envelopes and greedy basterts all round. Sad to see Ireland getting destroyed like it is, but no need to take it out on the music (NOT that I believe the wind-up, of course.)
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: A piece of my mind
I was picking on the Concertina Reel, ya see, only because it's such a cheerful tune--can't see what suffering would have to do with playing that.
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: A piece of my mind
It's not a wind-up, its the driver of the number six bus from Dublin
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by mcknowall
Re: A piece of my mind
Firstly- fair play to whoever-you-are if this IS a windup. (chuckle)
Secondly- if this is NOT a windup, as has been mentioned above, I'm sure our esteemed friend does not speak for all or even the majority of Irish musicians.
Thirdly- as much as I hate to admit it, this post does carry some real truth. By NO means do I agree with the Right Honorable Gentleman's views; however, we can all call to mind incidents and encounters with what I have come to call the "McTrad" or "RiverTrad" epidemic. By this I am referring to the waterering down, taking-out-of-context, misunderstanding, misrepresentation, commercialization, and in some cases Americanization of the Irish culture and idiom. Two examples, your honors:
Exhibit "A" : American tourist family in Ireland; children growing restless and bored; father, dismayed at not finding green beer on tap, reluctantly sips Iegitimate brews until he spills some on his vibrant cliche t-shirt purchased at the Aer Lingus Duty-Free, emblazoned with the hopeless slogan "Tis Himself". Frantically, in an attempt to restore family order and establish himself as Someone "In-the-Know", he strides boldy and brazenly to the musos and implores them to play ... "The Irish Jig".
Exhibit "B" : "Irish Fest" in Sunbury, Pennsylvania, USA. In the Big Tent: John Doyle, headline act; some thirty people in attendance. Most are elderly women whose only connection to anything Irish are some old Hal Roach and Irish Rovers records. John nears the end of the first hot set of tunes and songs, all traditional, but of course with a bit of Doylian groove thrown in! I kid you not- one such lady, between gulps of her Genuine Irish Potato Pancakes and Guinness Stew, ejaculated the following request: "PLAY US AN IRISH SONG!"
So there. Irish people have some legitimate reasons to be wary of Americans, especially the uninitiated, "stealing" or "perverting" their music. A few bad apples spoil the whole barrel. But to say that the interest in and adoption of Irish music in foreign countries is "wrong" is misguided nativism. Tell Junji Shirota that he should stop playing, forget the tunes? Tell Belgian session-goers they don't belong? Malarkey.
That is all.
Sean Earnest
Camp Hill, Pennsylvania, USA
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by DADGADLad
Re: A piece of my mind
I am 1/32 Irish does that count. I feel, Pilib, That instead of bringing us down, you should rather encourage those who celebrate your culture. Now, I could never say I have suffered the traumas some Irish have, but I read, and try to become as familiar as I can with the true spirit of the music, while incorperating in ME. Is that wrong? That I love your culture? That my sad attempts at Gaelic drive the native speakers nuts? If the language and culture were dying, and Comhaltas did much to bring it back, and let me in too? My life revolves around it
That can't change.
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by Red Crow
Re: A piece of my mind
Personally I think much of Irish culture is regretable and I'd probably have to kill myself if forced to adopt it (not that I'm particularly fond of my "native" culture either). With the political tyrany gone it is now dysfunctional. The religious tyrany has become so firmly established that it isn't even recongnzied as tyrany anymore.
I have no desire whatsoever to become psuedo Irish and East Durham rather creeps me out.
The music, however, is grand. So are the chunky jumpers, even though they're modern and commercial trade stuff with a faked up "history."
I'm perfectly happy playing some while wearing one. I like potatoes a whole lot too.
Potatoes, of course, are American.
KFG
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by KFG
Re: A piece of my mind
Guys! Guys! I know who it is! It HAS to be Seamus O Dubhthaigh, don't you think?!
http://thesession.org/discussions/display.php/3253
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: A piece of my mind
All joking aside....
When I visited Melbourne for the first time this year I met up with a sean nos singer who declared no other native singer was singing in Australia.
When I countered that people did not have to be Irish born to speak or sing as Gaelige...I thought war was going to break out.
And then the regional conflicts came through.... Kerry v. Galway, Kerry v. Derry....and we're not talking GAA Finals here.
In all seriousness it felt like a culture police, almost smacking of neo-nazi tendencies.
Brianx
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by briantheflute
Re: A "piece" of my mind
interesting title, seeing that only a small "PIECE" of mind must have actually been used... it's wierd that the county of choice for "yer" man was Donegal.
many of our tunes here are from the likes of john doherty, the deargs etc... and it would be impossible i'm sure for philib to not know that the vast majority of donegal music in fact came from scotland. much of the rest of it would have been composed by local musicians or adapted from other tunes found through out ireland.
if your statement is true, then ourselves in donegal are the worst shower of trad wreakers the nation has ever seen and therefore in no possition to condem other people for their adaption, love, and replication of it.
thing about the music is that it is a tool for expressing the soul, if ALL that comes out is crags and mosses, well then, i'd be asking myself some serious questions....
point of note to rest of world: we're not all like this in donegal.
All the best,
Máirtín ó Touruisce, Martin Tourish, Máirtín Tourish, M.T. whatever you like. the purpose of language is communication. still the same person.
SLáN
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by martin t
Re: A piece of my mind
The mind boggles at this guy's logic. Imagine if all cultures stuck to their own indiginous music types, we would never have heard the likes of Rory Gallagher, Eric Clapton etc. playing the Blues, Jules Holland playing Boogie Woogie....would Elvis have become King given his background and association with perceived 'Black' music? The list is endless and the more you add to the list the more you realise how narrow minded and selfish the main contributor appears.
It just sounds crazy that because you haven't suffered as much as us you shouldn't be allowed to play our music.
Everybody, from all walks of life and regardless of their land of birth experiences hardship at one time or another in their life. It is not an exclusive club.
rgds
PeterOC
(no relation....same County, different mountains!)
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by PeterOC
Re: A piece of my mind
It is not just Yanks who ask "Play an Irish song?" after a few sets of reels and jigs. It happens quite often in N.Ireland.
When it happens we launch into that well known English song about Salford, "Dirty Old Town". This cheers them up, because they love Irish songs, can sing along, and even argue about whether the song is about Belfast or Dublin.
It is things like that which make me wonder whether the original posting was a wind up or not.
# Posted on December 14th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: A piece of my mind
LOL! I'd agree with David, even though I didn't, in fact, do just that. However, he's just saying that about the elderly because he's gettin' on himself.
# Posted on December 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: A piece of my mind
would that be the one in parts on the kitchen counter?
# Posted on December 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: A piece of my mind
Brilliant wind up. Except for the logical inconsistency that anyone espousing these views wouldn't bother finding the session and wouldn't know how to log on anyway. Which leads us to the question, who has been breaking the rules and creating a second identity. It isn't Dow, because he would have generated an argument with himself.
# Posted on December 15th 2005 by _________
Re: A piece of my mind
"The barking of Irish dogs and lowing of Irish cattle have shaped and formed it".
I've been listening to my Irish Water Spaniel for seven years now, so I think I must be fully qualified.
But isn't this fun? When did you all last feel so provoked?
# Posted on December 15th 2005 by oldstrings
Re: A piece of my mind
Good heavens, you think THIS is provoked?!
# Posted on December 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: A piece of my mind
But wait! My Irish Water Spaniel was born in Alberta, and has never been to Ireland! Should I send him for eloqwoofin lessons?
# Posted on December 15th 2005 by oldstrings
Re: A piece of my mind
Well how can he be an Irish Water Spaniel if he's not from Ireland? He wouldn't know the language. Also, I'd say if he's from Alberta, he has not suffered enought to be an IRISH Water Spaniel. Maybe Canadian, though.
# Posted on December 15th 2005 by John Culhane
Re: A piece of my mind
Of course he's suffered. He's from Alberta. From the cold, if nothing else.
# Posted on December 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: A piece of my mind
But has he known the hammer blows of terrieranny?
# Posted on December 15th 2005 by John Culhane
Re: A piece of my mind
BTW, I believe that potatoes are originally from Peru, along with tomatos, aren't they?
# Posted on December 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: A piece of my mind
OW. John. I'll get your coat. *smirk*
# Posted on December 15th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: A piece of my mind
"I believe that potatoes are originally from Peru"
Not just potatoes, but freeze dried instant potatoes as well.
KFG
# Posted on December 15th 2005 by KFG
Re: A piece of my mind
I cannot believe that anyone fell for this.
This is a stereotype. It is none the worse for that. Stereotyoes can be funny. and, by extending the logic of the argument, it often demonstrates how ludicrous the original premise is.
The argument here is daft. To say that the music a people produce is a product of thier experience is stating the obvious. That is a very different thing from saying that without the experience you cannot play the music. Heinrich Schiff is the greatest current interpreter of Bach. I do not know him. But it appears unlikely he ilved in late medieval Germany.
Ditto for the language. I personally love playing the music and speaking Irish. But it is not essential. And it does not determine the quality of your playing. Do you need to speak
French to play Debussy?
People without the cultural experience or language can play the music in a way that is meaningful, fun, important, brilliant and true.
Fair play. No one should be offended by a bit of craic.
Togaigi go bóg é.
Bainingi sult as an cheol
Take it easy.
Enjoy the music.
# Posted on December 15th 2005 by Pól
Re: A piece of my mind
Line 2, 'stereotypes'. sorry
# Posted on December 15th 2005 by Pól
Re: A piece of my mind
Are yous lot still here!?
I thought I told you to get lost! G'wan! The whole lot o' ye. Scram!
# Posted on December 15th 2005 by Pilib O'Conchubhair
Re: A piece of my mind
Nice one Pilib, you didn't have me fooled, but there were a couple of waverers. You got a good run for your money on this one. You must've sat back and watch it all unfold, wee-weeing yourself with laffter.
Just to repeat from the other thread, a very good reason occurred to me why Pilib's A Piece of my Mind is a hoax. If this young pupil of his goes on this website, he surely would have rallied to Pilib's defence by now. Otherwise he wouldn't be worth his salt as a student - no loyalty to his master, and that wouldn't seem likely.
So there you have it - hoax.
But by whom?
C'mon Pil, reveal yourself!
# Posted on December 15th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: A piece of my mind
Told you it wasn't a wind up. Sure, hasn't he reappeared.
# Posted on December 15th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: A piece of my mind
Maybe it's Jeremy....
# Posted on December 15th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: A piece of my mind
Ah! BB! it's you!
...nah, too subtle for you.
:-]
# Posted on December 16th 2005 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: A piece of my mind
I think it sounds like David Alcock, if you ask me.
I mean, he used to be a novelist, and something about the "scram!" just put me in mind of him...
# Posted on December 16th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: A piece of my mind
Hmmm, in the US, Dole is a fruit company....
Ooops, wrong conspiracy theory, my bad.
;-|
# Posted on December 16th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: A piece of my mind
Has Ptarmigan been uncharacteristically silent through all this? Moulting into winter camouflage? Hmmm.
# Posted on December 16th 2005 by oldstrings
Re: A piece of my mind
I tell you it's true. And Danny, what does subtle mean? You know us stupid Irish.
# Posted on December 16th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: A piece of my mind
I hope O'Conchubhair comes back and collects that piece of his mind soon... it's starting to attract flies. (holding nose emoticon)
# Posted on December 16th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: A piece of my mind
Hey guys, do you think Pilib qualifies for this thread: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/8511
# Posted on December 17th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: A piece of my mind
Would a distinguished older gentleman really spell things in such a way that it exaggerates that Irish Spring Soap commercial phony accent? Please.
Also, since when is the flute exclusively a traditional Irish instrument? It hasn't really even been around for that long in comparison to other Trad. instruments.
Probably the main reason that America, Canada, Australia, etc. have ITM is because the Irish brought it there. A twenty something year old living in present day Ireland has probably suffered no more than a child who grew up in an American ghetto. I would think that, if our Irish-American ancestors could see us today, they'd be mighty proud to see us keeping their traditions alive.... this topic was amusing but full of crap
# Posted on December 30th 2005 by straycat82
Re: A piece of my mind
Straycat - I think "Pilib" near enough admitted to spoofing us on another amusing silly thread based on this one, have a look:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/8661/comments#comment185253
I personally think these two went pretty well. A well done spoof, nearly had a few of the seasonned hard cases on here going, plenty of laughs as well, and even made us think about our relationship to the music we play. As BB said, there ARE some fossils like Pilib *really* roaming the streets and the sessions and fleadhanna of Ireland. They must hate Bobby Casey and Maitin Byrnes and John King and Paddy Hayes.
# Posted on December 31st 2005 by Key Maniac Lad