Considering that you're in Missouri, the most important question is will you need a teacher or will you teach yourself? If you need a teacher, your choices may be limited by who teaches what in your area. If not, will you need teaching materials? Resources for C#/D are scarce.
If you will teach yourself and figure it out without teaching materials, or if you have access to teachers of both systems, you can go either way. Decide who your favorite players are and ask what system they play.
Warning: some players play in unusual keys, which make comparisons tricky. For example, Josephine Marsh plays B/C but likes to play in keys like F, C, B, and F#, which use fingerings and bellows work that are more commonly used on C#/D. Sharon Shannon plays both. I think she might sometimes use B/C fingering on the C#/D box to make tunes come out in E.
Whatever you choose, you can always try pretending it's the other type and see if you can learn both styles. Tunes will come out transposed a step up or down, and the basses will be wrong, but you'll get some sense for whether you want to trade for the other system, stay put, or get a second box.
I once wanted to play Box, but I have pretty much settled on Flute and Banjo. So what I have come to see is that C#/D takes more bellows work and on B/C it is easier to do more embellishments. As you know most tunes are in D so the first row aka the diatonic row on a C#/D box is D so you will be using the second (chromatic) row less also you will be back and forth with the bellows more because you will not be going to the other row where you can play a B and a C# on the same direction like on a B/C. Personally I would go for the C#/D as it is more Straight foward less messing with the other row for most tunes that is what I think others will disagree.
It depends on whether you want to play on one row or both. I think that C#/D would be easier to play, but the vast majority of Irish players these days use B/C... I play in B/C and it works very well. They both have nice sounds. Mick McAuley plays in B/C, as does John Whelan and John Williams. Benny McCarthy of Danu plays in C#/D. They're both nice tunings, but it's a matter of personal preference.
OK, unseen, I have to disagree.
No, not quite, it probably debends on each person's background. Since I've been playing the piano for many years I find the two rows of the B/C box very straight forward (that's about the only thing that might be called straigt forward on the box) since I don't have to "convert" any scales and whatnot. I just consider the C row the white keys and the B row the black keys. No problems whatsoever getting used playing on the two rows. And since there is a lot of other stuff to get used to when starting out with the box, every little thing helps!
As for style, my theory is that it's probably easier to emulate the push/pull C#/D style on the B/C box than get the smoother style of the B/C box on the C#/D box. In other words, in my opinion, you have more choices of how to use the right hand (more legato or more staccato) on the B/C box. But since I've never tried playing a C#/D box, maybe someone who plays both could comment on that theory and set me right.
I don't think that it is really the staccato-ness that is the appeal of a C#/D, you can play staccato on a B/C by pressing the buttons for less time. It's just that its easier to find that swinging rhythm when your going in-out all the time. But then it gets harder to go faster.
Really for me it came down simply to availabilty, I found a B/C so I'm learning B/C now, if I had have found a C#/D I would have learnt that.
If you have lotsa money, get both. I got started on B/C, liked it a lot, but then discovered the C#/D (D/C# in my case) and found it more challenging and quite frankly, more rewarding. The amount of work needed to achieve the same fluidity is not to be taken lightly. It's an uphill battle if you don't want to settle for the staccato effect on a C#/D instrument. I am a Joe Derrane aficionado (no kidding!) and one of the things I admire the most in his technique is precisely how seamless he makes it all sound.
But I won't deny that I sometimes wish I hadn't sold my B/C when I listen to Joe Burke or John Whelan, or John Williams, and a few others. I used to alternate between the two until I ran out of time and needed the money!
So Harper, try one and maybe a couple of years down the road you can switch or play both. It's all going to be a lot of fun anyway, trust me!
"And of course it doesn't matter what "all those folk" like one bit. What matters is what Harper_Lad likes."
Aye Gary, that is perfectly true, but if he really knew what he liked, would he be so keen to ask for our opinion?
He says a lot of people have swayed him towards B/C, so I take it that he still can't decide & is asking for our opinions, which is what I gave.
Not being a player, I'm afraid I can't help him with the playability etc of either, but I knows what I likes to hear boss & I was just making sure he realised that there are a lot of C#/D players, & fans of that box too!
Just bein' neighbourly you might say.
I trust you 'will' let us know which type of box you eventually decide to wrap up in Christmas paper for yourself Harper_Lad?
Just remember, it doesn't matter a fig to any of us here which you go for, unless of course one of these dudes is an agent for a box maker?
A punchy/smooth style is due to a combination of the way the player plays the tune and the key he/she is playing in. If you take a tune in the key of Dmaj, it will sound smoother on the B/C as there is less bellows action involved. However, if you take a tune in the key of Emaj it will sound smoother on the C#/D.
I play BC, and see the benefits of C#D as well, but am really intrigued at what I read about D#D which I hear is what Mairtin O'Connor plays--having a D available on both push and pull would be nice.
Of course, Jonathan, you can play in any key (some keys are an uphill battle, but it's a matter of practise). Here' s a story about Billy McComiskey (another superb B/C player) http://www.cranfordpub.com/tunes/Irish/Palm_Tree.htm
(initially relayed by LH)
so I taclked the Palm Tree, and I learned a lot from playing it. Better start off with someting in G, though. All the best.
SMOOTHNESS: It may be harder to achieve, but great smoothness is certainly possible on a C#/D - listen to Dermot Byrne.
CHROMATIC:You can get any note on either B/C or C#/D box, but make no mistake, they are each happiest playing in a smallish range of key signatures. Simpifying somewhat. on a B/C, no accidentals through to two sharps is easy. On a C/#D, one sharp through to three sharps is easy. You can extend these ranges in either direction, to be sure, but the farther away you get from them (i.e. the more sharps and flats you add), the more awkward it becomes. (Leaving out of the equation the strange keys you can obtain by playing on the outer row.)
But both systems allow more flexibility than the pipes though, that's certain.
D/D#: Al, Mairitn O Connor does play D/D# but judging from the recent TG4 program he plays it C#/D style, i.e. on the inner row - so everything comes out a semitone up.
In my beginning struggles with the box (C#/D) I decided that having a D on the pull would make things a lot easier for many passages, especially when playing in G.
I even considered retuning my D# key on the outer row to provide one. I dropped this idea when I realized that the D#-Eb comes in useful for many tunes I like to play. And there are drawbacks to playing a nonstandard system. And finally, the absence of a pull D doesn't seem to bother Messrs O Connor, Byrne & co. very much...
All this lleaves the possiblilty of a 2½ row box - one day maybe.
Playing a D/D# on the outer row is an intriguing possiblity. Toying around with this (pretending my box is D/D#) I have discovered that many of the common scales are feasible with as few, or sometimes fewer, bellows changes than on a B/C!
There's something not quite right about your "CHROMATIC" paragraph, Steve.
Everything that's true about B/C is true about C#/D for keys one whole step up, which is to say two additional sharps. And the reverse holds as well, transposing down.
So if one through three sharps is easy on C#/D, then one flat through one sharp would be easy on B/C. And if no sharps through two sharps is easy on B/C, then two sharps through four sharps would be easy on C#/D.
Since we know that G and D are easy on both, it must be that one flat through two sharps is easy on B/C and one sharp through four sharps is easy on C#/D.
Playing in the key of D is quite tricky on a B/C especially ornaments on the F# and C#. Having played both systems, I think it's more logical to play C#/D. The less crossing over the rows you do the easier it is to play. So based on this principle, if you took every tune on this list you would find the majority are in keys which are easier to play on C#/D than B/C. Why do you think we all converted?!
Aye that's interesting - I find it awkward when playing rolls on notes on the outer row - due to the need to adjust your hand position. Surely tunes in say Eb must be a nightmare on the B/C with all the crossing over - similarly F on a C#/D?
You're quite right Gary, thanks for the correction. It seems unfair that F and D minor should be such easy keys on the B/C!
As to whether C#/D is a more "logical" choice - I think it depends where you come from. As a fiddle and whistle player, it did seem more logical to me to have the "foundation stone" be the note of of D (never much cared for C major as a key on the fiddle).
But piano players find B/C much more logical because of the simple correlation between the C row and the white notes on a piano.
To my mind using a B/C for playing the common keys of Irish music represents, in a way, an attempt to get away from the basic push-pull nature of the diatonic box. Seeing the old in-and-out as a defect, rather than a feature...
And once you start thinking like that, you're only one step away from Jimmy Shand and his B/C/C# system, and by the time you get there, hell why not go for a chromatic button box and just make life easy, instead of struggling with the perversity we all know so well ?
Sure, Tom. Rolls on the outer row probably are hard. I'm not far enough along in my playing to feel that I need to include every imaginable ornament.
And Eb is indeed a nightmare. I can play tunes (at least to the point where you might recognize them) in F, C, G, D, A, E, B, and F#, but I have to think REALLY hard even to play a scale slowly in Eb. When a singer/guitarists asks me to accompany and I see the capo on the first fret, I ask if I can borrow the capo.
To follow up on Steve's reply, one of the nice things about B/C is being able to play those rare but nice F Major and G Dorian tunes. (They, and C Major/D Dorian use the "old in-and-out.") The tradeoff is that A is harder - though I don't think it's as hard as some people suggest.
To my way of thinking, whether the old in-and-out is a feature or a defect depends on the tune and how I'm feeling at the moment. It's not some black and white, cut and dried thing. If I had the time and the room in my brain, and if I was a good enough musician, I'd learn both and use the one that suited my mood or the situation. They're really two different instruments, despite being the same.
Button Accordion
Button Accordion
Hey everyone.
I haven't posted or commented here in a while, but I do have a burning question.
WHAT KEY!?
BC? C#D!?
I honestly have no clue.
I wanted to give myself a christmas present and get one, but then this burgeoning question just hit me.
I want the most versitile insturment. A lot of people have swayed me towards BC, but really I don't know.
Any comments would be helpful.
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by Harper_Lad
Re: Button Accordion
Considering that you're in Missouri, the most important question is will you need a teacher or will you teach yourself? If you need a teacher, your choices may be limited by who teaches what in your area. If not, will you need teaching materials? Resources for C#/D are scarce.
If you will teach yourself and figure it out without teaching materials, or if you have access to teachers of both systems, you can go either way. Decide who your favorite players are and ask what system they play.
Warning: some players play in unusual keys, which make comparisons tricky. For example, Josephine Marsh plays B/C but likes to play in keys like F, C, B, and F#, which use fingerings and bellows work that are more commonly used on C#/D. Sharon Shannon plays both. I think she might sometimes use B/C fingering on the C#/D box to make tunes come out in E.
Whatever you choose, you can always try pretending it's the other type and see if you can learn both styles. Tunes will come out transposed a step up or down, and the basses will be wrong, but you'll get some sense for whether you want to trade for the other system, stay put, or get a second box.
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: Button Accordion
I once wanted to play Box, but I have pretty much settled on Flute and Banjo. So what I have come to see is that C#/D takes more bellows work and on B/C it is easier to do more embellishments. As you know most tunes are in D so the first row aka the diatonic row on a C#/D box is D so you will be using the second (chromatic) row less also you will be back and forth with the bellows more because you will not be going to the other row where you can play a B and a C# on the same direction like on a B/C. Personally I would go for the C#/D as it is more Straight foward less messing with the other row for most tunes that is what I think others will disagree.
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by Unseen122
Re: Button Accordion
I don't play either, but I much prefer the sound of the C#/D - so there!
I see you have a few Polkas in your Tunebook! I think Polkas sound just terrific on the C#/D!
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Button Accordion
It depends on whether you want to play on one row or both. I think that C#/D would be easier to play, but the vast majority of Irish players these days use B/C... I play in B/C and it works very well. They both have nice sounds. Mick McAuley plays in B/C, as does John Whelan and John Williams. Benny McCarthy of Danu plays in C#/D. They're both nice tunings, but it's a matter of personal preference.
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by Zazzaliss
Re: Button Accordion
OK, unseen, I have to disagree.
No, not quite, it probably debends on each person's background. Since I've been playing the piano for many years I find the two rows of the B/C box very straight forward (that's about the only thing that might be called straigt forward on the box) since I don't have to "convert" any scales and whatnot. I just consider the C row the white keys and the B row the black keys. No problems whatsoever getting used playing on the two rows. And since there is a lot of other stuff to get used to when starting out with the box, every little thing helps!
As for style, my theory is that it's probably easier to emulate the push/pull C#/D style on the B/C box than get the smoother style of the B/C box on the C#/D box. In other words, in my opinion, you have more choices of how to use the right hand (more legato or more staccato) on the B/C box. But since I've never tried playing a C#/D box, maybe someone who plays both could comment on that theory and set me right.
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by heike
Re: Button Accordion
heike - that's all very well if you like 'the smoother style' - but what about all those folk who like the more staccato style?
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Button Accordion
And of course it doesn't matter what "all those folk" like one bit. What matters is what Harper_Lad likes.
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: Button Accordion
I don't think that it is really the staccato-ness that is the appeal of a C#/D, you can play staccato on a B/C by pressing the buttons for less time. It's just that its easier to find that swinging rhythm when your going in-out all the time. But then it gets harder to go faster.
Really for me it came down simply to availabilty, I found a B/C so I'm learning B/C now, if I had have found a C#/D I would have learnt that.
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by kjay_bc_box
Re: Button Accordion
If you have lotsa money, get both. I got started on B/C, liked it a lot, but then discovered the C#/D (D/C# in my case) and found it more challenging and quite frankly, more rewarding. The amount of work needed to achieve the same fluidity is not to be taken lightly. It's an uphill battle if you don't want to settle for the staccato effect on a C#/D instrument. I am a Joe Derrane aficionado (no kidding!) and one of the things I admire the most in his technique is precisely how seamless he makes it all sound.
But I won't deny that I sometimes wish I hadn't sold my B/C when I listen to Joe Burke or John Whelan, or John Williams, and a few others. I used to alternate between the two until I ran out of time and needed the money!
So Harper, try one and maybe a couple of years down the road you can switch or play both. It's all going to be a lot of fun anyway, trust me!
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by pennhorse
Re: Button Accordion
"And of course it doesn't matter what "all those folk" like one bit. What matters is what Harper_Lad likes."
Aye Gary, that is perfectly true, but if he really knew what he liked, would he be so keen to ask for our opinion?
He says a lot of people have swayed him towards B/C, so I take it that he still can't decide & is asking for our opinions, which is what I gave.
Not being a player, I'm afraid I can't help him with the playability etc of either, but I knows what I likes to hear boss & I was just making sure he realised that there are a lot of C#/D players, & fans of that box too!
Just bein' neighbourly you might say.
I trust you 'will' let us know which type of box you eventually decide to wrap up in Christmas paper for yourself Harper_Lad?
Just remember, it doesn't matter a fig to any of us here which you go for, unless of course one of these dudes is an agent for a box maker?
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: Button Accordion
A punchy/smooth style is due to a combination of the way the player plays the tune and the key he/she is playing in. If you take a tune in the key of Dmaj, it will sound smoother on the B/C as there is less bellows action involved. However, if you take a tune in the key of Emaj it will sound smoother on the C#/D.
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by TomR
Re: Button Accordion
I play BC, and see the benefits of C#D as well, but am really intrigued at what I read about D#D which I hear is what Mairtin O'Connor plays--having a D available on both push and pull would be nice.
# Posted on December 4th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Button Accordion
I think that, I might be going with a BC box.
EEEK DONT HURT ME!!!
But here's something Im still not too sure about.
Are these things chromatic in any key?
I play uilleann pipes and, of course, your restricted to playing in keys of G D and sometimes A.
So if I get a BC box, what keys can I play in, all of them?
Im sorry Im so ignorant about this!
But could anyone answer this question?
Thanks!
-Johnathan
# Posted on December 5th 2005 by Harper_Lad
Re: Button Accordion
Of course, Jonathan, you can play in any key (some keys are an uphill battle, but it's a matter of practise). Here' s a story about Billy McComiskey (another superb B/C player)
http://www.cranfordpub.com/tunes/Irish/Palm_Tree.htm
(initially relayed by LH)
so I taclked the Palm Tree, and I learned a lot from playing it. Better start off with someting in G, though. All the best.
# Posted on December 5th 2005 by pennhorse
Re: Button Accordion
Yes Harper_Lad, any half-stef two row (i.e. B/C, C#/D...) is chromatic.
You should read Han Speeks pages about the box, especially this page
http://home.hccnet.nl/h.speek/irishbox/diffs.html
Kjay
# Posted on December 5th 2005 by kjay_bc_box
Re: Button Accordion
SMOOTHNESS: It may be harder to achieve, but great smoothness is certainly possible on a C#/D - listen to Dermot Byrne.
CHROMATIC:You can get any note on either B/C or C#/D box, but make no mistake, they are each happiest playing in a smallish range of key signatures. Simpifying somewhat. on a B/C, no accidentals through to two sharps is easy. On a C/#D, one sharp through to three sharps is easy. You can extend these ranges in either direction, to be sure, but the farther away you get from them (i.e. the more sharps and flats you add), the more awkward it becomes. (Leaving out of the equation the strange keys you can obtain by playing on the outer row.)
But both systems allow more flexibility than the pipes though, that's certain.
D/D#: Al, Mairitn O Connor does play D/D# but judging from the recent TG4 program he plays it C#/D style, i.e. on the inner row - so everything comes out a semitone up.
In my beginning struggles with the box (C#/D) I decided that having a D on the pull would make things a lot easier for many passages, especially when playing in G.
I even considered retuning my D# key on the outer row to provide one. I dropped this idea when I realized that the D#-Eb comes in useful for many tunes I like to play. And there are drawbacks to playing a nonstandard system. And finally, the absence of a pull D doesn't seem to bother Messrs O Connor, Byrne & co. very much...
All this lleaves the possiblilty of a 2½ row box - one day maybe.
Playing a D/D# on the outer row is an intriguing possiblity. Toying around with this (pretending my box is D/D#) I have discovered that many of the common scales are feasible with as few, or sometimes fewer, bellows changes than on a B/C!
# Posted on December 5th 2005 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Button Accordion
There's something not quite right about your "CHROMATIC" paragraph, Steve.
Everything that's true about B/C is true about C#/D for keys one whole step up, which is to say two additional sharps. And the reverse holds as well, transposing down.
So if one through three sharps is easy on C#/D, then one flat through one sharp would be easy on B/C. And if no sharps through two sharps is easy on B/C, then two sharps through four sharps would be easy on C#/D.
Since we know that G and D are easy on both, it must be that one flat through two sharps is easy on B/C and one sharp through four sharps is easy on C#/D.
# Posted on December 7th 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: Button Accordion
Playing in the key of D is quite tricky on a B/C especially ornaments on the F# and C#. Having played both systems, I think it's more logical to play C#/D. The less crossing over the rows you do the easier it is to play. So based on this principle, if you took every tune on this list you would find the majority are in keys which are easier to play on C#/D than B/C. Why do you think we all converted?!
# Posted on December 7th 2005 by TomR
Re: Button Accordion
Really? I find it easier to cross over. Maybe that's based on playing piano for 40 years.
# Posted on December 7th 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: Button Accordion
Aye that's interesting - I find it awkward when playing rolls on notes on the outer row - due to the need to adjust your hand position. Surely tunes in say Eb must be a nightmare on the B/C with all the crossing over - similarly F on a C#/D?
# Posted on December 7th 2005 by TomR
Re: Button Accordion
You're quite right Gary, thanks for the correction. It seems unfair that F and D minor should be such easy keys on the B/C!
As to whether C#/D is a more "logical" choice - I think it depends where you come from. As a fiddle and whistle player, it did seem more logical to me to have the "foundation stone" be the note of of D (never much cared for C major as a key on the fiddle).
But piano players find B/C much more logical because of the simple correlation between the C row and the white notes on a piano.
To my mind using a B/C for playing the common keys of Irish music represents, in a way, an attempt to get away from the basic push-pull nature of the diatonic box. Seeing the old in-and-out as a defect, rather than a feature...
And once you start thinking like that, you're only one step away from Jimmy Shand and his B/C/C# system, and by the time you get there, hell why not go for a chromatic button box and just make life easy, instead of struggling with the perversity we all know so well ?
# Posted on December 7th 2005 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Button Accordion
Sure, Tom. Rolls on the outer row probably are hard. I'm not far enough along in my playing to feel that I need to include every imaginable ornament.
And Eb is indeed a nightmare. I can play tunes (at least to the point where you might recognize them) in F, C, G, D, A, E, B, and F#, but I have to think REALLY hard even to play a scale slowly in Eb. When a singer/guitarists asks me to accompany and I see the capo on the first fret, I ask if I can borrow the capo.
To follow up on Steve's reply, one of the nice things about B/C is being able to play those rare but nice F Major and G Dorian tunes. (They, and C Major/D Dorian use the "old in-and-out.") The tradeoff is that A is harder - though I don't think it's as hard as some people suggest.
To my way of thinking, whether the old in-and-out is a feature or a defect depends on the tune and how I'm feeling at the moment. It's not some black and white, cut and dried thing. If I had the time and the room in my brain, and if I was a good enough musician, I'd learn both and use the one that suited my mood or the situation. They're really two different instruments, despite being the same.
# Posted on December 7th 2005 by GaryAMartin