Many of you have gone to Irish music workshops - the short kind that are just a few hours start to finish. Someone has just asked my thoughts on these to help plan some future ones locally. So I'm curious what experiences you've all had, and what suggestions you might have to enhance this type of workshop.
I've had both good and bad experiences with these myself. At a recent good one, the teacher talked to each student a bit at the beginning to find out what their playing levels were, and what they were hoping to get from the workshop. The teacher than taught along those lines. After the mid workshop break, the teacher even checked to be sure the workshop was still on track, and was covering what students wanted.
Then there was one fiddle workshop where the instructor didn't even bring a fiddle along, and was generally condescending to and critical of the participants. And got paid for this.
Another variety I've been to is when a well-respected musician is passing through town and is talked into giving a workshop, even though they're not really into teaching. (at least not in group workshop settings.) They're usually incredibly nice people, and it's exciting to meet them, but they're sometimes quite clueless about what or how to teach at the workshop, and sometimes very uncomfortable in a workshop setting. (One even confessed this, but also went on to teach some great tunes.)
So what experiences, good or bad have you had with this type of workshop? And what's on your workshop wish list? (Tunes? Technique? Structured? Free-form? Large group? Small? Etc.)
Zhenya
I've been to a number of workshops and have always found the limited time more usefully used when the sheet music is handed out. I know using sheet music is not the way that tunes are passed on at sessions, but when you only have a couple hours in a workshop, I find learning by ear slow. If I have the sheet music I can then concentrate on the feel and the ornaments etc. rather than finding the notes I also find that I can learn a tune by ear at a workshop but within a couple hours of leaving the workshop i have difficulty remembering the tune, especially if I've played something else.
The very first fiddle workshop I attended was run by Brian McNeal (ex battlefield Band) I really found his teaching style suited me. He gave out the sheet music, then played the tunes himself, then went through certain aspects of the tune, approach etc then let us have a go - all practicing in our own time, with Brian coming round and listening to each of us and making helpful comments, then we all played it together. In this way we could have a go at loads of tunes, the sheet music allowing me to have a go later and remind me of how the tune went. Learning by ear (for me) is ok when you go to a session regularly and hear the tunes therefore regularly, but with limited time I prefer to have the dots. However there do seem to be some people who can pick up tunes very quickly and remember them.
I've been to a couple of those short workshops (one was with Sean Smyth) and they have ranged from totally great to one that was so painful I still get upset thinking about it. For me, what works is when the teacher (using Sean as an example, since that was probably the best short one I've attended):
- doesn't spend too much time on teaching the tune. either because they pass out sheet music (but a lot of the people in the class will not read music, so that doesn't always help - good for later for memory, of course), or because they pick a tune that is really, really simple and can be learned relatively quickly even by beginners (this is what Sean did with us). For a wide range of skill levels, one tune is pretty much the limit for an hour.
- takes the time to work with each person individually. This might be walking around the room, everyone working on a particularly technique at the same time (yes, it sounds awful), and stopping with each person to physically show them. Sean did this well. He was very hands on, showing you up close and then adjusting your position, etc. while you tried it. Much better than just explaining and briefly showing from a distance. Or, it might be having each person play by themselves and correcting them. This one, which was how Paddy Glackin and James Kelly did it, can be too difficult for some people, so I think the other is better myself.
- has something to teach for the different skill levels at each point. Maybe it is explaining a roll in simple terms for the beginner, how to make it sound different by changing something about how it is done for the intermediates, and what kind of feelings the different techniques express for the more advanced. Or, it might be the variations shown for the tune. Sean did both of these. He picked a simple tune and taught it quickly, then once everyone learned it enough to follow, he showed a few simple ornaments and how you could make the tune come a bit alive by adding them in certain places. After telling the beginners to stick with those, he then went on to show how you could add other more difficult ornaments in different places, etc. Then we went over the tune multiple times with each person playing the ornament(s) that they wanted to work on during the tune. Sean walked around and worked with each person, focusing on the where they were struggling.
- they encourage questions, but don't require them to keep the class going. Part of the reason the one awful class was so awful was because the teacher expected all the direction for where the class was to go to come from the students themselves. That particular class was full of beginners who didn't know enough to ask interesting questions and who were shy. The load fell to the one or two people who were more advanced and/or had more balls than the rest, and then myself (I felt so embarassed for the teacher that I asked lots of stupid questions just to fill the silence, and I *hate* asking stupid questions). It ended up being a class where the teacher sat around telling stories about his life. Some interesting stories, but not exactly what we had paid to learn. Hmm, I actually learned a lot at that one, all about how not to teach a workshop.
as far as structured vs free-form, seems to me the perfect workshop is where the teacher has a plan, but is willing to deviate as best fits the class. Although, I have often wished for a workshop on just one technique. Say, a hour or two spent just on rolls, long, short, where to put them in the tune, how to accent at different spots, etc. Pass out the sheet music pre workshop (for those that don't read, provide a tape of the tune played slowly, or put them in touch with one who is willing to teach the bare bones of it). I don't think this is something for the great musician just passing through, but a local thing. Maybe sort of a set of mini-workshops.
Great post, Sos. But I'm not sure that I wouldn't love to have someone like James Kelly or Sean Smyth go on for an hour about their philosophy and ways of dealing with rolls -- you could fill three or four hours that way on the one thing. I'm just not sure you could market such a workshop easily!
Oh, I didn't mean I wouldn't love to have James Kelly or Paddy Glackin or Sean Smyth go on for an hour (or hours) about rolls, or about triplets, or about anything their little 'ol hearts desired - I would, most definitely, oh yeah, just bring 'em on . Just meant that I wouldn't have thought they would be interested in coming through a town for one, short workshop and spending all of it on a single pre-picked thing. I have to say, the few short (*way* too short) classes I've taken with those 3 have been the most useful of all the things I've done. Worth all the time, hassle and money to get to the classes with them.
Sos pretty well covers it, eh? I agree that the teacher needs a plan to avoid relying completely on the students. I went to one workshop that quickly devolved into a horribly scattered Q&A session, with people interrupting the teacher because they weren't interested in the question that he was answering. Too wide a range of abilities among the students, and not enough direction or context from the teach.
I've also been to workshops where the teachers basically just played and we were expected to watch and learn without opportunities to try stuff ourselves. I managed to learn a little at these, but not as much as I could have if given the chance to internalize some of the ideas being presented.
I've also taught workshops and group classes. I always come prepared with 3-4 tunes mapped out (both in my head and in sheet music to hand out) with ideas to explore for all levels of ability and experience. For people who can sight read, the sheet music lets them relax about learning the tune, even though I usually ask them to learn it by ear. At least they know they have the dots to fall back on if need be. I also strongly encourage people to bring recorders and enough tape or mini-discs to record the whole workshop, not just the tunes. One of my favorite ITM tapes is a recording of a private lesson I had with Kevin Burke back in 1984, and all the talking between the tunes is priceless--funny, gracious, interesting, insightful, inspiring, and edifying. Of course the tunes are great too.
Other things I've found that enhance workshops:
- Have everyone, teacher included, sit in a circle, just like at a session. It's good to have plenty of room so the teacher can walk in between every chair to help with form and technique adjustments. But move the cirlce in if needed so when you all play the tunes together, everyone can hear the beat.
- Limit enrollment to no more than 12-15 students at one time. I've been in groups of up to 25 and it just wasn't very effective unless all you're doing is teaching tunes. Six to 10 students has been ideal in my experience.
- Ask people to show up half an hour before the teacher so they can tune up and warm up. Provide a fixed pitch tuning source (electric tuner, piano, squeeze box, etc.) and make sure the room is warm rather than chilly.
- With more experienced players, I like to have everyone warm up together on a tune everyone knows--Drowsy Maggie, Wind that Shakes the Barley, whatever. As a teacher, I usually ask the group to call out tunes until we find one that everyone knows and then we run through it for 4-5 minutes at a slow to moderate tempo. This helps the nervous types get over their jitters and also gives me a quick sense of everyone's basic abilities without putting any one on the spot individually.
- I always start by asking what the students hope to get out of the workshop, and what particular challenges they'd like to focus on. In ITM, ornamentation is usually a popular topic. For that, I like to pick a simple repetitive tune, briefly explain the tune's structure, and then work through all the possible options--where to put cut notes, rolls, triplets, slides, double stops, melodic variations, rhythmic variations, etc, depending on how much the group is ready to tackle. I usually provide sheet music showing all the variations. (I posted a short version of this in abc on a thread here some time ago, ornamentation possibilites in Gallagher's Frolics, if you want to see how it's applied to a particular tune).
- It's nice to have a good block of time at the end for questions and answers. So in my book, a solid one-hour workshop should last at least 2 hours (grin): a half hour without the teacher (unless s/he is willing) for tuning and warming up, and hour for the lesson, and at least a half hour for Q&A followup.
Thanks for all these comments. These are truly helpful. We’ve been brainstorming this question locally, but there are plenty of things mentioned here that we haven’t thought of at all.
I’m now hoping I get to go to a workshop with Sean Smyth, as that sounds like it was really good. Some of the best ones I’ve been to in the last few years were with Oisin Mac Diarmada (the most recent one, and the good one I mentioned above), Brian Conway, Eileen Ivers, and James Kelly. They were all a little different, but all the teachers had good control of the group (without being rigid about it) and all of them seemed to have at least some idea right from the beginning about what to teach. (Some were prepared to teach different tunes/ways depending on what type of student group showed up.) Another teacher I’ve heard good things about, but never studied with is Matt Cranitch.
One interesting workshop I went to was with Kevin Burke, a couple of years ago. It was a three hour workshop, and the students never played a note! But definitely not a waste of time. He spend about an hour talking about his background and experiences over the years, and another hour demonstrating different musical techniques. (While taking related questions from the students.) The last hour, he took requests for tunes from the students, so we could record them for learning purposes. I’m still getting things off of that tape.
I definitely like having the sheet music at some point. For myself, since I’m not a fast reader (at least not on the fiddle, where I still have to concentrate on the many technical aspects and have little attention to spare for reading a page of music), I appreciate if the music is supplied ahead of time. I do try to play by ear at the workshops themselves, (and have the same problem Daver mentions about not remembering the notes. Only for me, this usually happens not after a few hours, but by the B part of the tune!) But many people are good readers and really like having the music. One suggestion a friend had was to make sure and tell people to bring recorders. Seems obvious, but some people just don’t think of it. (or extra batteries!) So sheet music, and a recording to learn by ear, the best of both worlds.
I like the idea of letting everyone try out the tune at the same time, with the teacher coming around to each person in turn. I’ve never had a workshop teacher do that, but it’s a great idea. Maybe a little noisy, but if you’re like me and feel somewhat self-conscious playing solo in front of a whole group at a workshop, this makes it a little easier to get some individual instruction from the teacher. Interestingly, at the workshop I went to with James Kelly, he listened to people individually during the break. This was much more causal than having to play during the actual workshop, since people were wandering around and talking. It worked for me, anyway.
The workshop I went to with Oisin Mac Diarmada included at least one really advanced player, and one almost complete beginner. And I felt he managed to provide something for everyone. He gave advanced technique pointers to the advanced player, and played the tune really slowly along with the new player. It was a fairly small group , and everyone got about equal attention. I think the important thing is not always the level of the students, but as Will has said, the teacher’s ability to direct what’s going on. I was concentrating here on one-shot workshops, but I’ve also gone to the “series” kind locally, with another excellent teacher, fiddler Marie Reilly. Since you have more time at these workshops (over several workshops), you can go more in depth with ornamentation, getting the “lift” in, and such. So those are helpful too, if you can arrange them.
I like the suggestion about having everyone sit in a circle. That’s happened sometimes, but it’s been random. Sometimes we’re all sitting lined up in rows like in a classroom – definitely not as conducive to learning together. Will, thanks for all the input, and your own workshop sounds really good. If you’re ever planning to be in New York, perhaps you could lead one here.
I’m thinking it would be helpful to put all these ideas down as a type of “guidance” for people giving workshops – not mandatory of course, but suggestions. Especially good for those instructors who really aren’t sure where to begin.
Thanks everyone for all your help! ( and any more ideas are of course welcome as well.)
Zhenya
The more lower level students you have, the harder it is to have a mixed group. It's not impossible, but having even one or two true beginners (don't know their way around the instrument) is enough to really raise a teacher's stress level if they want to make sure that everyone leaves feeling like they got a lot out of the workshop. If it's at all possible, try to have people roughly grouped by ability. If it's not, it'll still work, but probably not as smoothly.
Also, the lower level the student, the less they'll get out of a long experience with no breaks. Private lesson-wise, we generally allow an hour for advanced and intermediate, and half an hour to forty five minutes for beginners. (This was feedback from the teachers, as they started having real difficulties with having to give them more to work on for an hour when what was needed was for the student to go away and practise the stuff they'd learned in the first half hour.)
In workshops, if you can break to allow the student some time to practise and then reconvene, longer times work all right.
Thanks for the additional comments Zina. I agree with all that you said here. I hadn't thought about having a "practice break" at a beginners’ workshop, but that sounds like a really good idea.
I think most of the workshops I've been to have been intermediate to advanced players. Sometimes the instructor will offer a separate shorter workshop beforehand for beginners. I did sit in on one workshop with James Kelly when I was only playing a short time (I went to another one with him after I'd been playing a while.) I was hesitating about going for the reasons you mentioned, but my lesson teacher at the time suggested I go, play whatever I could (without distracting the other students) and "soak up the ambiance". There was certainly something to be said for that, at least in the case of a player of that caliber. But for real hands on learning, I wouldn't recommend that situation for a beginner.
By the way, when I started this thread, I was only focusing on the student’s point of view, but these responses are making me realize I need to think about this also from the point of view of the teacher or people presenting the workshop.
I attended a workshop once by the Kilfenora band, and they made each of us play a few bars of whatever tune we wanted. This allowed them to separate the students in 2 groups by ability before they started. They gave anyone the chance to change groups (from beginner to advanced or vice versa), but nobody did.
Fiddler Gerry Connor told me that he often runs two workshops at the same time. One starts later than the other. He runs the first one, and then gives them a break to practise what they've learned. Then he runs the other one while the first group practises. Then the other group reconvenes and he listens and corrects, while the second group practises. Then he switches again to the second group as the first group leaves.
Handy way to deal with two different levels at the same time.
What works at workshops?
What works at workshops?
Many of you have gone to Irish music workshops - the short kind that are just a few hours start to finish. Someone has just asked my thoughts on these to help plan some future ones locally. So I'm curious what experiences you've all had, and what suggestions you might have to enhance this type of workshop.
I've had both good and bad experiences with these myself. At a recent good one, the teacher talked to each student a bit at the beginning to find out what their playing levels were, and what they were hoping to get from the workshop. The teacher than taught along those lines. After the mid workshop break, the teacher even checked to be sure the workshop was still on track, and was covering what students wanted.
Then there was one fiddle workshop where the instructor didn't even bring a fiddle along, and was generally condescending to and critical of the participants. And got paid for this.
Another variety I've been to is when a well-respected musician is passing through town and is talked into giving a workshop, even though they're not really into teaching. (at least not in group workshop settings.) They're usually incredibly nice people, and it's exciting to meet them, but they're sometimes quite clueless about what or how to teach at the workshop, and sometimes very uncomfortable in a workshop setting. (One even confessed this, but also went on to teach some great tunes.)
So what experiences, good or bad have you had with this type of workshop? And what's on your workshop wish list? (Tunes? Technique? Structured? Free-form? Large group? Small? Etc.)
Zhenya
# Posted on September 5th 2002 by Zhenya
Re: What works at workshops?
I've been to a number of workshops and have always found the limited time more usefully used when the sheet music is handed out. I know using sheet music is not the way that tunes are passed on at sessions, but when you only have a couple hours in a workshop, I find learning by ear slow. If I have the sheet music I can then concentrate on the feel and the ornaments etc. rather than finding the notes I also find that I can learn a tune by ear at a workshop but within a couple hours of leaving the workshop i have difficulty remembering the tune, especially if I've played something else.
The very first fiddle workshop I attended was run by Brian McNeal (ex battlefield Band) I really found his teaching style suited me. He gave out the sheet music, then played the tunes himself, then went through certain aspects of the tune, approach etc then let us have a go - all practicing in our own time, with Brian coming round and listening to each of us and making helpful comments, then we all played it together. In this way we could have a go at loads of tunes, the sheet music allowing me to have a go later and remind me of how the tune went. Learning by ear (for me) is ok when you go to a session regularly and hear the tunes therefore regularly, but with limited time I prefer to have the dots. However there do seem to be some people who can pick up tunes very quickly and remember them.
# Posted on September 5th 2002 by Daver
Re: What works at workshops?
I've been to a couple of those short workshops (one was with Sean Smyth) and they have ranged from totally great to one that was so painful I still get upset thinking about it. For me, what works is when the teacher (using Sean as an example, since that was probably the best short one I've attended):
- doesn't spend too much time on teaching the tune. either because they pass out sheet music (but a lot of the people in the class will not read music, so that doesn't always help - good for later for memory, of course), or because they pick a tune that is really, really simple and can be learned relatively quickly even by beginners (this is what Sean did with us). For a wide range of skill levels, one tune is pretty much the limit for an hour.
- takes the time to work with each person individually. This might be walking around the room, everyone working on a particularly technique at the same time (yes, it sounds awful), and stopping with each person to physically show them. Sean did this well. He was very hands on, showing you up close and then adjusting your position, etc. while you tried it. Much better than just explaining and briefly showing from a distance. Or, it might be having each person play by themselves and correcting them. This one, which was how Paddy Glackin and James Kelly did it, can be too difficult for some people, so I think the other is better myself.
- has something to teach for the different skill levels at each point. Maybe it is explaining a roll in simple terms for the beginner, how to make it sound different by changing something about how it is done for the intermediates, and what kind of feelings the different techniques express
for the more advanced. Or, it might be the variations shown for the tune. Sean did both of these. He picked a simple tune and taught it quickly, then once everyone learned it enough to follow, he showed a few simple ornaments and how you could make the tune come a bit alive by adding them in certain places. After telling the beginners to stick with those, he then went on to show how you could add other more difficult ornaments in different places, etc. Then we went over the tune multiple times with each person playing the ornament(s) that they wanted to work on during the tune. Sean walked around and worked with each person, focusing on the where they were struggling.
- they encourage questions, but don't require them to keep the class going. Part of the reason the one awful class was so awful was because the teacher expected all the direction for where the class was to go to come from the students themselves. That particular class was full of beginners who didn't know enough to ask interesting questions and who were shy. The load fell to the one or two people who were more advanced and/or had more balls than the rest, and then myself (I felt so embarassed for the teacher that I asked lots of stupid questions just to fill the silence, and I *hate* asking stupid questions). It ended up being a class where the teacher sat around telling stories about his life. Some interesting stories, but not exactly what we had paid to learn. Hmm, I actually learned a lot at that one, all about how not to teach a workshop.
as far as structured vs free-form, seems to me the perfect workshop is where the teacher has a plan, but is willing to deviate as best fits the class. Although, I have often wished for a workshop on just one technique. Say, a hour or two spent just on rolls, long, short, where to put them in the tune, how to accent at different spots, etc. Pass out the sheet music pre workshop (for those that don't read, provide a tape of the tune played slowly, or put them in touch with one who is willing to teach the bare bones of it). I don't think this is something for the great musician just passing through, but a local thing. Maybe sort of a set of mini-workshops.
# Posted on September 6th 2002 by chicagofiddler
Re: What works at workshops?
Great post, Sos. But I'm not sure that I wouldn't love to have someone like James Kelly or Sean Smyth go on for an hour about their philosophy and ways of dealing with rolls -- you could fill three or four hours that way on the one thing. I'm just not sure you could market such a workshop easily!
Zina
# Posted on September 6th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: What works at workshops?
Oh, I didn't mean I wouldn't love to have James Kelly or Paddy Glackin or Sean Smyth go on for an hour (or hours) about rolls, or about triplets, or about anything their little 'ol hearts desired - I would, most definitely, oh yeah, just bring 'em on
. Just meant that I wouldn't have thought they would be interested in coming through a town for one, short workshop and spending all of it on a single pre-picked thing. I have to say, the few short (*way* too short) classes I've taken with those 3 have been the most useful of all the things I've done. Worth all the time, hassle and money to get to the classes with them.
# Posted on September 6th 2002 by chicagofiddler
Re: What works at workshops?
Sos pretty well covers it, eh? I agree that the teacher needs a plan to avoid relying completely on the students. I went to one workshop that quickly devolved into a horribly scattered Q&A session, with people interrupting the teacher because they weren't interested in the question that he was answering. Too wide a range of abilities among the students, and not enough direction or context from the teach.
I've also been to workshops where the teachers basically just played and we were expected to watch and learn without opportunities to try stuff ourselves. I managed to learn a little at these, but not as much as I could have if given the chance to internalize some of the ideas being presented.
I've also taught workshops and group classes. I always come prepared with 3-4 tunes mapped out (both in my head and in sheet music to hand out) with ideas to explore for all levels of ability and experience. For people who can sight read, the sheet music lets them relax about learning the tune, even though I usually ask them to learn it by ear. At least they know they have the dots to fall back on if need be. I also strongly encourage people to bring recorders and enough tape or mini-discs to record the whole workshop, not just the tunes. One of my favorite ITM tapes is a recording of a private lesson I had with Kevin Burke back in 1984, and all the talking between the tunes is priceless--funny, gracious, interesting, insightful, inspiring, and edifying. Of course the tunes are great too.
Other things I've found that enhance workshops:
- Have everyone, teacher included, sit in a circle, just like at a session. It's good to have plenty of room so the teacher can walk in between every chair to help with form and technique adjustments. But move the cirlce in if needed so when you all play the tunes together, everyone can hear the beat.
- Limit enrollment to no more than 12-15 students at one time. I've been in groups of up to 25 and it just wasn't very effective unless all you're doing is teaching tunes. Six to 10 students has been ideal in my experience.
- Ask people to show up half an hour before the teacher so they can tune up and warm up. Provide a fixed pitch tuning source (electric tuner, piano, squeeze box, etc.) and make sure the room is warm rather than chilly.
- With more experienced players, I like to have everyone warm up together on a tune everyone knows--Drowsy Maggie, Wind that Shakes the Barley, whatever. As a teacher, I usually ask the group to call out tunes until we find one that everyone knows and then we run through it for 4-5 minutes at a slow to moderate tempo. This helps the nervous types get over their jitters and also gives me a quick sense of everyone's basic abilities without putting any one on the spot individually.
- I always start by asking what the students hope to get out of the workshop, and what particular challenges they'd like to focus on. In ITM, ornamentation is usually a popular topic. For that, I like to pick a simple repetitive tune, briefly explain the tune's structure, and then work through all the possible options--where to put cut notes, rolls, triplets, slides, double stops, melodic variations, rhythmic variations, etc, depending on how much the group is ready to tackle. I usually provide sheet music showing all the variations. (I posted a short version of this in abc on a thread here some time ago, ornamentation possibilites in Gallagher's Frolics, if you want to see how it's applied to a particular tune).
- It's nice to have a good block of time at the end for questions and answers. So in my book, a solid one-hour workshop should last at least 2 hours (grin): a half hour without the teacher (unless s/he is willing) for tuning and warming up, and hour for the lesson, and at least a half hour for Q&A followup.
Hope this helps.
# Posted on September 6th 2002 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: What works at workshops?
Thanks for all these comments. These are truly helpful. We’ve been brainstorming this question locally, but there are plenty of things mentioned here that we haven’t thought of at all.
I’m now hoping I get to go to a workshop with Sean Smyth, as that sounds like it was really good. Some of the best ones I’ve been to in the last few years were with Oisin Mac Diarmada (the most recent one, and the good one I mentioned above), Brian Conway, Eileen Ivers, and James Kelly. They were all a little different, but all the teachers had good control of the group (without being rigid about it) and all of them seemed to have at least some idea right from the beginning about what to teach. (Some were prepared to teach different tunes/ways depending on what type of student group showed up.) Another teacher I’ve heard good things about, but never studied with is Matt Cranitch.
One interesting workshop I went to was with Kevin Burke, a couple of years ago. It was a three hour workshop, and the students never played a note! But definitely not a waste of time. He spend about an hour talking about his background and experiences over the years, and another hour demonstrating different musical techniques. (While taking related questions from the students.) The last hour, he took requests for tunes from the students, so we could record them for learning purposes. I’m still getting things off of that tape.
I definitely like having the sheet music at some point. For myself, since I’m not a fast reader (at least not on the fiddle, where I still have to concentrate on the many technical aspects and have little attention to spare for reading a page of music), I appreciate if the music is supplied ahead of time. I do try to play by ear at the workshops themselves, (and have the same problem Daver mentions about not remembering the notes. Only for me, this usually happens not after a few hours, but by the B part of the tune!) But many people are good readers and really like having the music. One suggestion a friend had was to make sure and tell people to bring recorders. Seems obvious, but some people just don’t think of it. (or extra batteries!) So sheet music, and a recording to learn by ear, the best of both worlds.
I like the idea of letting everyone try out the tune at the same time, with the teacher coming around to each person in turn. I’ve never had a workshop teacher do that, but it’s a great idea. Maybe a little noisy, but if you’re like me and feel somewhat self-conscious playing solo in front of a whole group at a workshop, this makes it a little easier to get some individual instruction from the teacher. Interestingly, at the workshop I went to with James Kelly, he listened to people individually during the break. This was much more causal than having to play during the actual workshop, since people were wandering around and talking. It worked for me, anyway.
The workshop I went to with Oisin Mac Diarmada included at least one really advanced player, and one almost complete beginner. And I felt he managed to provide something for everyone. He gave advanced technique pointers to the advanced player, and played the tune really slowly along with the new player. It was a fairly small group , and everyone got about equal attention. I think the important thing is not always the level of the students, but as Will has said, the teacher’s ability to direct what’s going on. I was concentrating here on one-shot workshops, but I’ve also gone to the “series” kind locally, with another excellent teacher, fiddler Marie Reilly. Since you have more time at these workshops (over several workshops), you can go more in depth with ornamentation, getting the “lift” in, and such. So those are helpful too, if you can arrange them.
I like the suggestion about having everyone sit in a circle. That’s happened sometimes, but it’s been random. Sometimes we’re all sitting lined up in rows like in a classroom – definitely not as conducive to learning together. Will, thanks for all the input, and your own workshop sounds really good. If you’re ever planning to be in New York, perhaps you could lead one here.
I’m thinking it would be helpful to put all these ideas down as a type of “guidance” for people giving workshops – not mandatory of course, but suggestions. Especially good for those instructors who really aren’t sure where to begin.
Thanks everyone for all your help! ( and any more ideas are of course welcome as well.)
Zhenya
# Posted on September 6th 2002 by Zhenya
Re: What works at workshops?
The more lower level students you have, the harder it is to have a mixed group. It's not impossible, but having even one or two true beginners (don't know their way around the instrument) is enough to really raise a teacher's stress level if they want to make sure that everyone leaves feeling like they got a lot out of the workshop. If it's at all possible, try to have people roughly grouped by ability. If it's not, it'll still work, but probably not as smoothly.
Also, the lower level the student, the less they'll get out of a long experience with no breaks. Private lesson-wise, we generally allow an hour for advanced and intermediate, and half an hour to forty five minutes for beginners. (This was feedback from the teachers, as they started having real difficulties with having to give them more to work on for an hour when what was needed was for the student to go away and practise the stuff they'd learned in the first half hour.)
In workshops, if you can break to allow the student some time to practise and then reconvene, longer times work all right.
Zina
# Posted on September 6th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: What works at workshops?
Thanks for the additional comments Zina. I agree with all that you said here. I hadn't thought about having a "practice break" at a beginners’ workshop, but that sounds like a really good idea.
I think most of the workshops I've been to have been intermediate to advanced players. Sometimes the instructor will offer a separate shorter workshop beforehand for beginners. I did sit in on one workshop with James Kelly when I was only playing a short time (I went to another one with him after I'd been playing a while.) I was hesitating about going for the reasons you mentioned, but my lesson teacher at the time suggested I go, play whatever I could (without distracting the other students) and "soak up the ambiance". There was certainly something to be said for that, at least in the case of a player of that caliber. But for real hands on learning, I wouldn't recommend that situation for a beginner.
By the way, when I started this thread, I was only focusing on the student’s point of view, but these responses are making me realize I need to think about this also from the point of view of the teacher or people presenting the workshop.
Zhenya
# Posted on September 6th 2002 by Zhenya
Re: What works at workshops?
I attended a workshop once by the Kilfenora band, and they made each of us play a few bars of whatever tune we wanted. This allowed them to separate the students in 2 groups by ability before they started. They gave anyone the chance to change groups (from beginner to advanced or vice versa), but nobody did.
# Posted on September 6th 2002 by glauber
Re: What works at workshops?
Fiddler Gerry Connor told me that he often runs two workshops at the same time. One starts later than the other. He runs the first one, and then gives them a break to practise what they've learned. Then he runs the other one while the first group practises. Then the other group reconvenes and he listens and corrects, while the second group practises. Then he switches again to the second group as the first group leaves.
Handy way to deal with two different levels at the same time.
Zina
# Posted on September 6th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: What works at workshops?
More good ideas! Thanks, everyone. Zhenya
# Posted on September 9th 2002 by Zhenya