All,
I was in DisneyWorld in Florida recently, and on two evenings, I had occasion to visit their new Irish Pub ("Raglan Road") at their Downtown Disney area, where they have some night life for the grownups. I entered with some trepedation, as sometimes Disney tends to homogenize cultural things when they present them. The pub is very nice inside, has a very "pub" feel, without being as blatantly "charming" as some of the other American chain pubs I have been in (like Fados and Ri Ra). It was BIG however, with a large central atrium, with cozier wings off of that for the bars. The man running things was definitely Irish, as was the band, although much of the staff was not.
The music was pretty good (the group's name was Tusker Rock, named after an offshore outcropping near Ireland, I believe). And despite the Disney punctuality, like good Irish musicians do, they even started later than advertised! Four pieces, guitarist, accordion, a really hot fiddler, and a singer who played guitar when he sang and percussion on tunes (yes the dreaded shakey eggs came out in addition to bodhran and spoons, but at least he played them well). They started with a set that I think is old Bothy, with Kesh followed by Give us a Drink of Water, etc. The sets were a good mix of familiar and unfamiliar tunes, with a nice session feel to them. The place also has a stage in the middle where an Irish dancer performs, and the one the first night was great--I ran into her as I left and found that she headed a major Irish dance studio in the area, and she was indeed first rate. The songs were nice, a Luka Bloom song, Black is the Color, the Crack was Ninety. They handled the expected requests (like Whiskey in the Jar and Fields of Athenry) graciously, and did nice jobs with them. On the second night, the dancer spent a good amount of time with some little irish dancers in the corner of the room, and they let someone from the audience sing.
All in all, while it was a big commercial operation, it had a nice homey feel to it, and I had a fun time--kudos to Disney for creating a nice place to visit.
Now for the question and a call for your opinions. Are commercial endeavors like this spreading the tradition or watering it down? Can a pub be done right on a large-scale basis, or is it something that must grow locally and organically? I am interested to hear your thoughts!
I’m glad you had a fine time at the pub. As for your questions;
“Are commercial endeavors like this spreading the tradition or watering it down?”
I suppose they may actually expose someone to the music and dance itself but is that all there is to the tradition?
“Can a pub be done right on a large-scale basis, or is it something that must grow locally and organically?”
As a commercial venture it will only be around for as long as the owners feel they are getting an adequate return for their investment. The minute that stops I am sure another venture will rise in its place.
We have a plethora of “theme” pubs around here and even though some may indeed host a session they will only do so if it is economically feasible. I’ve only been to one of the dozens in the area that has actually developed a community/neighborhood feel to it and even that one has curtailed the session schedule for the want of attempting to draw more patrons. The performance schedules of these theme pubs are more filled with rock or show band acts.
I truly believe that the interests of capitalism are the antithesis of the interests of community and it is community that to me defines the tradition. So I would say that if the establishment has grown “organically” it will indeed contribute to keeping the tradition alive in all its glory and may even meet with a modest amount of financial success. If it is a commercial venture first and foremost then it will either survive or not based on the talents of those responsible for its management irrespective of the entertainment it offers or whether or not it even offers entertainment.
eimhin,
I hadn't realized that we had already discussed the band on this site, nor that some members of the band were members of this site (although I should have expected it). Thanks for providing the link. Had I known that was Pete Browne, I would have gone up and introduced myself, as I believe he is not only a member of this site, he is also the same guy on the video tape I used to watch that presented advice on playing ornaments on the box. In fact, one of my few complaints was that while the band was a bit too loud overall, the accordion was not, and you could not hear it as well as I would have liked.
Ed,
I share your trepedations about commercialism--but am also hopeful that, at least sometimes, when the endeavors are approached correctly, capitalism and the tradition can be mutually beneficial.
Boy, this thread sure didn't get the response I expected--even Ptarmagin did not weigh in, and he can usually be counted on to express an opinion on just about everything. Maybe I should pose the question BEFORE rambling on and on about this and that.
Aye Al, I think where you went wrong was in not calling lots of folks names in BOLD LETTERS. You need to be more abusive & offensive - that usually does the trick!
Another sure fired way is to miss-spell lots of words & make a backside of your grammer & punctuation, those usually reap rich dividends, on the replies front.
But seriously, I played in 'The Harp Bar' in West Berlin for over a year & that was a theme pub, & it was OK, nothing special you understand, just OK.
But that had to be manufactured in West Berlin cause there were very few Irish folk about there then, so if you were to try & wait for it to grow organically, you would have been waiting forever.
I think they do the same kind of job as groups like The Dubliners, The Pogues, JSD Band etc do. They introduce folks, who would never in a million years walk into an old dusty bar in a backwater village in Clare, to a hint & flavour of the real thing & if they like that, then they'll explore, & if really taken with it, follow through.
Over the past 15 years SF has been inundated with Irish pubs. Many of them are just places to drink that are no different than any other bar except that you'll find Irish people there who seem to have chosen the pub more because of it's proximity with their neighborhood and Irish barstaff. But there are a good few who have gone out of their way to be "authentic Irish pubs." (We call them "post card pubs”) The problem is that they never really meet my own expectations of being like the pubs I've visited in Ireland. There I usually feel like I've walked into a place that hasn't changed since the 40s and there are cozy nooks, low tables and padded stools in abundance -- perfect for sessions. The doorways are narrow and the ceilings are low. They're quite cavernous and will often seem like they're made up of several different rooms and even buildings all strung together with doorways. There's usually a coal or turf fire going, and of course -- there's the Guinness -- something they'll never get right over here.
I've heard horror stories of some of these lovely old pubs in Ireland being refitted with decor to match the "postcard pubs" here in America in order to attract Yanks, Japanese and Europeans on holiday... is this true? If so it would definitely be watering down the tradition in a tragic and unexpected way.
DISNEY'S IRISH PUB
DISNEY'S IRISH PUB
All,
I was in DisneyWorld in Florida recently, and on two evenings, I had occasion to visit their new Irish Pub ("Raglan Road") at their Downtown Disney area, where they have some night life for the grownups. I entered with some trepedation, as sometimes Disney tends to homogenize cultural things when they present them. The pub is very nice inside, has a very "pub" feel, without being as blatantly "charming" as some of the other American chain pubs I have been in (like Fados and Ri Ra). It was BIG however, with a large central atrium, with cozier wings off of that for the bars. The man running things was definitely Irish, as was the band, although much of the staff was not.
The music was pretty good (the group's name was Tusker Rock, named after an offshore outcropping near Ireland, I believe). And despite the Disney punctuality, like good Irish musicians do, they even started later than advertised! Four pieces, guitarist, accordion, a really hot fiddler, and a singer who played guitar when he sang and percussion on tunes (yes the dreaded shakey eggs came out in addition to bodhran and spoons, but at least he played them well). They started with a set that I think is old Bothy, with Kesh followed by Give us a Drink of Water, etc. The sets were a good mix of familiar and unfamiliar tunes, with a nice session feel to them. The place also has a stage in the middle where an Irish dancer performs, and the one the first night was great--I ran into her as I left and found that she headed a major Irish dance studio in the area, and she was indeed first rate. The songs were nice, a Luka Bloom song, Black is the Color, the Crack was Ninety. They handled the expected requests (like Whiskey in the Jar and Fields of Athenry) graciously, and did nice jobs with them. On the second night, the dancer spent a good amount of time with some little irish dancers in the corner of the room, and they let someone from the audience sing.
All in all, while it was a big commercial operation, it had a nice homey feel to it, and I had a fun time--kudos to Disney for creating a nice place to visit.
Now for the question and a call for your opinions. Are commercial endeavors like this spreading the tradition or watering it down? Can a pub be done right on a large-scale basis, or is it something that must grow locally and organically? I am interested to hear your thoughts!
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by AlBrown
Re: DISNEY'S IRISH PUB
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/8223/
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by eimhin
Re: DISNEY'S IRISH PUB
Thanks Al,
I’m glad you had a fine time at the pub. As for your questions;
“Are commercial endeavors like this spreading the tradition or watering it down?”
I suppose they may actually expose someone to the music and dance itself but is that all there is to the tradition?
“Can a pub be done right on a large-scale basis, or is it something that must grow locally and organically?”
As a commercial venture it will only be around for as long as the owners feel they are getting an adequate return for their investment. The minute that stops I am sure another venture will rise in its place.
We have a plethora of “theme” pubs around here and even though some may indeed host a session they will only do so if it is economically feasible. I’ve only been to one of the dozens in the area that has actually developed a community/neighborhood feel to it and even that one has curtailed the session schedule for the want of attempting to draw more patrons. The performance schedules of these theme pubs are more filled with rock or show band acts.
I truly believe that the interests of capitalism are the antithesis of the interests of community and it is community that to me defines the tradition. So I would say that if the establishment has grown “organically” it will indeed contribute to keeping the tradition alive in all its glory and may even meet with a modest amount of financial success. If it is a commercial venture first and foremost then it will either survive or not based on the talents of those responsible for its management irrespective of the entertainment it offers or whether or not it even offers entertainment.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by ejsant
Re: DISNEY'S IRISH PUB
eimhin,
I hadn't realized that we had already discussed the band on this site, nor that some members of the band were members of this site (although I should have expected it). Thanks for providing the link. Had I known that was Pete Browne, I would have gone up and introduced myself, as I believe he is not only a member of this site, he is also the same guy on the video tape I used to watch that presented advice on playing ornaments on the box. In fact, one of my few complaints was that while the band was a bit too loud overall, the accordion was not, and you could not hear it as well as I would have liked.
Ed,
I share your trepedations about commercialism--but am also hopeful that, at least sometimes, when the endeavors are approached correctly, capitalism and the tradition can be mutually beneficial.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by AlBrown
Re: DISNEY'S IRISH PUB
Boy, this thread sure didn't get the response I expected--even Ptarmagin did not weigh in, and he can usually be counted on to express an opinion on just about everything.
Maybe I should pose the question BEFORE rambling on and on about this and that.
# Posted on December 5th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: DISNEY'S IRISH PUB
sorry Al. some threads interest me, but this one Disney - Boom Boom
# Posted on December 5th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: DISNEY'S IRISH PUB
Aye Al, I think where you went wrong was in not calling lots of folks names in BOLD LETTERS. You need to be more abusive & offensive - that usually does the trick!
Another sure fired way is to miss-spell lots of words & make a backside of your grammer & punctuation, those usually reap rich dividends, on the replies front.
But seriously, I played in 'The Harp Bar' in West Berlin for over a year & that was a theme pub, & it was OK, nothing special you understand, just OK.
But that had to be manufactured in West Berlin cause there were very few Irish folk about there then, so if you were to try & wait for it to grow organically, you would have been waiting forever.
I think they do the same kind of job as groups like The Dubliners, The Pogues, JSD Band etc do. They introduce folks, who would never in a million years walk into an old dusty bar in a backwater village in Clare, to a hint & flavour of the real thing & if they like that, then they'll explore, & if really taken with it, follow through.
I don't think they're doing any harm.
# Posted on December 5th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: DISNEY'S IRISH PUB
Ptarmy,
Thanks for keeping me from feeling lonely!
# Posted on December 5th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: DISNEY'S IRISH PUB
Just before you call 'Last Orders' on this thread Al, the folks here might like to see a couple of photos of this place, & if so, they can check out:
- a photo of the front of the Raglan Road Pub here:
http://www.miceage.com/kevinyee/ky112205a.htm
& one photo of the inside, here:
http://www.wdwmagic.com/around.htm
# Posted on December 5th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: DISNEY'S IRISH PUB
Over the past 15 years SF has been inundated with Irish pubs. Many of them are just places to drink that are no different than any other bar except that you'll find Irish people there who seem to have chosen the pub more because of it's proximity with their neighborhood and Irish barstaff. But there are a good few who have gone out of their way to be "authentic Irish pubs." (We call them "post card pubs”) The problem is that they never really meet my own expectations of being like the pubs I've visited in Ireland. There I usually feel like I've walked into a place that hasn't changed since the 40s and there are cozy nooks, low tables and padded stools in abundance -- perfect for sessions. The doorways are narrow and the ceilings are low. They're quite cavernous and will often seem like they're made up of several different rooms and even buildings all strung together with doorways. There's usually a coal or turf fire going, and of course -- there's the Guinness -- something they'll never get right over here.
I've heard horror stories of some of these lovely old pubs in Ireland being refitted with decor to match the "postcard pubs" here in America in order to attract Yanks, Japanese and Europeans on holiday... is this true? If so it would definitely be watering down the tradition in a tragic and unexpected way.
# Posted on December 5th 2005 by Phantom Button
Phant:
No, this is not true.
-dogma
# Posted on December 12th 2005 by dogmageek