hi. reading an interesting article at the min by sally chappell called "developing the complete pianist: a study of the importance of developing a whole-brain approach to piano teaching" it really can apply to any instrument of voice but centers on the idea of two sides of the brain, left for the logical approach and right for more creative approach. before i read it even, this had always interested me and i'd always have anybody i heard down as one or the other, bearing in mind that one isn't better than the other.
the point the eassy makes is that in classical there is not enough emphasise on right sided issues like improvisation, internalization, and memorization. and its more of the leftie "do it correctly" and more playing by the book.
of course it is always well possible to have a nice mix of both but alot of modern day trad players that i have heard seem to lean strangely to the left in that there is a marked emphasise on playing the tune "authentically" - (in trad this can be known as comhaltasy) as in not going of the tune and trying to be as trad as possible. then in the last gneration with the likes of johnny doherty etc there seemed to be this huge journey undertaken inside a reel where each phrase was hardly played the same and improvisatoin, memory, and internalization plays a huge part. it is well documented about the hundreds of tunes and songs that musicians and singers from that particular generation new as well as multiple variations. for people like Doherty, their repertoire was infinite, because he could have made something up in the spot if he was stuck.
the question then is that given that trad is an AURAL art form, should we be seing more of a leaning towards the right approach? and has the concept of being correct and authentic diminished a flair in the majority that seems to have been very present in the older one? OR should we just do what the god damn article says and go for a double approach, but then that was written for a classical audience who were starved of the right in lessons..
i throw it to ye!
martin.
p.s. i'm not asking questions for my own playing but very interested in what other people think in relation to it.(also for the record; i'm a rightie!)
If I whistle a tune as in whistling, I tend to vary it all over the place. But when I play it on the whistle, I tend to stick more to the same phrases. Maybe when my fingers can think fully independently of everything else, I'll enjoy the same facility. Well that's the aim - just let go and play without thinking at all about the tune.
Right. But not as right as I used to be. I like to think there's a line between variations and "tricks", being patterns known to me, that I can apply in a given sort of tune. The variation I am most happy with in my own playing is the one that happens without my intent, but still comes out fine. Thing about this, if I try to do it, it either goes sour, or I end up in a familiar pattern(a "trick").
Are you staiyng in Dublin for a while Mairtin? I was over last Easter, and, if finances permits, will come over again some time into the new year.
I'd say I tend to be towards the right, as I like to let my music do whatever it wants, but I've still gotten very traditional minded in the past several months or so. I like extremely creative and improvised music, and sometimes in certain situations I'll go all over the place with tunes, but in the context of traditional sessions, I appreciate creativity within the scope of the tradition more than just an all-out going crazy. I love the way Tommy Peoples or John Doherty use the right side as opposed to the way a less restrained musician might. (I guess I'm saying I don't really appreciate too many jazzy improvs in my trad for the most part).
In short, I'm just right of center, but I love playing on both sides.
My background includes both classical and jazz before I came to ITM. I have also dabbled in other traditional music genres before settling on Irish music. I find the difference between memorizing and reading music to be quite astounding really.
Whenever I relied on the written music I was nailed to the page and had to disconnect from any sense of improvisation. Classical music was all about correctly interpreting what was written. There was artistic license to a degree of course, but it was very limited with the goal being correctness rather that uniqueness. I found that the classical music I did memorized from sheet music to be much more free and easy to express emotions etc. Jazz on the other hand was a completely different discipline. There was still the written music and "cheat sheets" present at times, but the concept of improvisation was integral. I would practice scales and arpeggios in all keys with the sole purpose of having it handy for improvisation when the time came to play.
When I listen to ITM musicians I hear more of what relates to jazz than to classical in this aspect. The improvisation is much more subtle, but it’s definitely a part of it. One of the things I most enjoy about listening is to hear this going on with playful and clever variations. It’s also something I strive for in my own playing. Another similarity to jazz is that you have a common body of tunes, but everyone puts their own mark on them. There’s definitely a correct style for ITM, but the interpretation of the tunes is left open to a degree that’s defined by the style itself.
So to answer your query, I go for the double approach. One needs to respect the tradition and style, but the freedom of expression is an integral part as well. Too much in either direction could stray away from what the essence of the music is.
I have been told that I am left-brained and from what I know on the subject, I agree with it. Coming from a classical background, I approached traditional music in the same way. A friend encouraged me to try a more right-brained approach and I enjoy the challenge. It allows me to me much more creative.
Personally, I'm in favor of a double approach. The left-brained for a foundation, an the right-brained for creativity.
I hear you're a juggler too, Will. I wasted endless hours learning to juggle in my 20s. I had a friend who was equally fascinated by it and we would juggle together all the time. I think that experience was a lot like playing tunes with other people. Also, the instruments I chose, flute and concertina, both throw the notes from hand to hand. Very right-brain left-brain stuff all together.
My wife has accused me of being very left-brained (or maybe she said “daft brained”), but I’ve done a few questionnaires that are supposed to score your hemisphere dominance and I always come out pretty strongly on the right side. I think maybe I appear left-brained because I have to work so hard to get along in the rational world that I overcompensate.
Actually, I communicate better with music than words, so I’ll just say … ta da dum dum dum diddly dum diddly doo…
Jack, I noticed that with flute too--both hands doing similar motions (as opposed to fiddle, say, or banjo), so some aspects of playing flute came very easy to me, so similar to the feel of certain juggling patterns.
I learned to juggle when I was 13. For the next 6 years, I averaged 8 hours a day at it, and missed only 6 days in all that time (thanks in part to a broken wrist). Talk about obsessed. But it was my first career--I juggled professionally, including a stint as a clown with Ringling Bros. Circus, and performed 7 balls, 5 clubs, and assorted nasty sharp, fiery, and motorized objects.
I don't regret the time spent, except for the opportunity cost of all the jigs and reels I could've learned instead.
D'oh, I see you said as much in your last sentence. (I've been working way too much lately, and the little squiggly hieroglyphs are all beginning to blur.)
Left or right brained? Co--o--ohr. I'd be careful spouting that one off on here. Brain things aren't so neatly-packagedly reductionistly simple as either/or left or right. I don't wish to pour cold water on this whole thesis for the sake of it , but creativity vis a vis conformity, relating to cerebral hemispheres is nowadays regarded as a bit of a laughable myth: http://linus.highpoint.edu/~bblatchl/essay/RightBrainLeft.html
So let us here at The Session think of ourselves as loving, fun-loving, astute and informed. Not party to disinformation leading to myths.
Thre myth isn't the fault of the poster of this thread. Mairtin has just healthily picked up stuff and run with it. But who wants to score a try by throwing a pile of sh!te ?
Will and Jack
hey now that ye mention that whole juggling thing,i can juggle and i play the whistle and flute reasonably well...you may be right in that it all links up...u find that juggling is like learning to ride a bike?as in once you learn how,you never forget???maybe its just me.....???
Those motor skills such as juggling are controlled by the cerebellum, not the cerebral hemispheres, so the so-called mythical left/right dichotomy doesn't even figure there.
Hmm.. I have to say, some of the people posting on this one could do well to have a look at some current neuroscience books or websites first before venting. It laeds one to conclude how ill-informed they may be about other topics..including music?
Daniel O'Grumpy,
Neuroscience Dept,
Institute of Psychiatry,
London.
hi. firstly, great you liked the cd heath and yeah, i'm in dublin for a while now at college and will be for the next 3 years so safe enough to come up. which leads nicely on to the next point....
i'm supposed to be looking at this topic for a college presentation on wed the post isn't much to do about brain surgery (i'm studying music not anatomy) but what approaches people take to playin music and maybe how it relates to the rest of their lives and if it's good to have a double approach which i think it is. i don't like the words logical approach or musical approach so left and right is much nicer.
perhaps juggling is a safer topic... nasty, fiery, sharp AND motorised objects did you say?!!! (rather that than 6 pints and a nuroscientist!
Thanks for the link, Danny. I’ve never imagined that the popular notion of right/left brain was anything more than simplistic way of talking about some very complex and poorly understood processes, but whatever the neuroanatomical substrate, people do exhibit degrees of rational vs emotional, literal/concrete vs abstract/imaginative, etc., and it’s interesting to ponder how these things play out in activities like music.
I’d like to know more about right/left handedness and how the two hands work together (or not). When I think of the instruments I’ve tried to play, the hardest were the ones requiring the most integration of the two hands, regardless of the overall simplicity of what I was trying to do. Maybe my corpus callosum was eaten away by termites.
The right/left brain stuff is just a figurative way of talking about our different capacities for different ways of thinking, not a literal description of the division of labor between hemispheres.
Yeah, of course it is - but there was a time when people thought that behaviouraland thought process differences could actually be ascribed to the L/R sides of the brain. That's all...OK, I'll shurrup now, cheers guys.
Looks Like I missed the bus on that one. Thanks for the link anyway I enjoyed that. I especially liked the phrase "unified mind". Sounds so much healthier than "whole Brainer."
left of right?
left of right?
hi. reading an interesting article at the min by sally chappell called "developing the complete pianist: a study of the importance of developing a whole-brain approach to piano teaching" it really can apply to any instrument of voice but centers on the idea of two sides of the brain, left for the logical approach and right for more creative approach. before i read it even, this had always interested me and i'd always have anybody i heard down as one or the other, bearing in mind that one isn't better than the other.
the point the eassy makes is that in classical there is not enough emphasise on right sided issues like improvisation, internalization, and memorization. and its more of the leftie "do it correctly" and more playing by the book.
of course it is always well possible to have a nice mix of both but alot of modern day trad players that i have heard seem to lean strangely to the left in that there is a marked emphasise on playing the tune "authentically" - (in trad this can be known as comhaltasy) as in not going of the tune and trying to be as trad as possible. then in the last gneration with the likes of johnny doherty etc there seemed to be this huge journey undertaken inside a reel where each phrase was hardly played the same and improvisatoin, memory, and internalization plays a huge part. it is well documented about the hundreds of tunes and songs that musicians and singers from that particular generation new as well as multiple variations. for people like Doherty, their repertoire was infinite, because he could have made something up in the spot if he was stuck.
the question then is that given that trad is an AURAL art form, should we be seing more of a leaning towards the right approach? and has the concept of being correct and authentic diminished a flair in the majority that seems to have been very present in the older one? OR should we just do what the god damn article says and go for a double approach, but then that was written for a classical audience who were starved of the right in lessons..
i throw it to ye!
martin.
p.s. i'm not asking questions for my own playing but very interested in what other people think in relation to it.(also for the record; i'm a rightie!)
# Posted on December 1st 2005 by martin t
Re: left OR right?
a mistake already! - easy knowing which side i'm not using!
# Posted on December 1st 2005 by martin t
Re: left of right?
If I whistle a tune as in whistling, I tend to vary it all over the place. But when I play it on the whistle, I tend to stick more to the same phrases. Maybe when my fingers can think fully independently of everything else, I'll enjoy the same facility. Well that's the aim - just let go and play without thinking at all about the tune.
# Posted on December 1st 2005 by the wounded hussar
Re: left of right?
Right. But not as right as I used to be. I like to think there's a line between variations and "tricks", being patterns known to me, that I can apply in a given sort of tune. The variation I am most happy with in my own playing is the one that happens without my intent, but still comes out fine. Thing about this, if I try to do it, it either goes sour, or I end up in a familiar pattern(a "trick").
Are you staiyng in Dublin for a while Mairtin? I was over last Easter, and, if finances permits, will come over again some time into the new year.
Snorre
# Posted on December 1st 2005 by snorre
Re: left of right?
Hey Martin, your cd's great by the way : )
I'd say I tend to be towards the right, as I like to let my music do whatever it wants, but I've still gotten very traditional minded in the past several months or so. I like extremely creative and improvised music, and sometimes in certain situations I'll go all over the place with tunes, but in the context of traditional sessions, I appreciate creativity within the scope of the tradition more than just an all-out going crazy. I love the way Tommy Peoples or John Doherty use the right side as opposed to the way a less restrained musician might. (I guess I'm saying I don't really appreciate too many jazzy improvs in my trad for the most part).
In short, I'm just right of center, but I love playing on both sides.
# Posted on December 1st 2005 by heth
Re: left of right?
My background includes both classical and jazz before I came to ITM. I have also dabbled in other traditional music genres before settling on Irish music. I find the difference between memorizing and reading music to be quite astounding really.
Whenever I relied on the written music I was nailed to the page and had to disconnect from any sense of improvisation. Classical music was all about correctly interpreting what was written. There was artistic license to a degree of course, but it was very limited with the goal being correctness rather that uniqueness. I found that the classical music I did memorized from sheet music to be much more free and easy to express emotions etc. Jazz on the other hand was a completely different discipline. There was still the written music and "cheat sheets" present at times, but the concept of improvisation was integral. I would practice scales and arpeggios in all keys with the sole purpose of having it handy for improvisation when the time came to play.
When I listen to ITM musicians I hear more of what relates to jazz than to classical in this aspect. The improvisation is much more subtle, but it’s definitely a part of it. One of the things I most enjoy about listening is to hear this going on with playful and clever variations. It’s also something I strive for in my own playing. Another similarity to jazz is that you have a common body of tunes, but everyone puts their own mark on them. There’s definitely a correct style for ITM, but the interpretation of the tunes is left open to a degree that’s defined by the style itself.
So to answer your query, I go for the double approach. One needs to respect the tradition and style, but the freedom of expression is an integral part as well. Too much in either direction could stray away from what the essence of the music is.
# Posted on December 1st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: left of right?
I have been told that I am left-brained and from what I know on the subject, I agree with it. Coming from a classical background, I approached traditional music in the same way. A friend encouraged me to try a more right-brained approach and I enjoy the challenge. It allows me to me much more creative.
Personally, I'm in favor of a double approach. The left-brained for a foundation, an the right-brained for creativity.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by TJ
Re: left of right?
I'm ambi-horrendous: equally inept with either side of my brain....
Seriously, I like things that engage both hemispheres and encourage broad neural networking. Music certainly does that for me.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: left of right?
I hear you're a juggler too, Will. I wasted endless hours learning to juggle in my 20s. I had a friend who was equally fascinated by it and we would juggle together all the time. I think that experience was a lot like playing tunes with other people. Also, the instruments I chose, flute and concertina, both throw the notes from hand to hand. Very right-brain left-brain stuff all together.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: left of right?
My wife has accused me of being very left-brained (or maybe she said “daft brained”), but I’ve done a few questionnaires that are supposed to score your hemisphere dominance and I always come out pretty strongly on the right side. I think maybe I appear left-brained because I have to work so hard to get along in the rational world that I overcompensate.
Actually, I communicate better with music than words, so I’ll just say … ta da dum dum dum diddly dum diddly doo…
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: left of right?
My lack of balance is probably the reason I found the concertina soooo difficult.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: left of right?
Jack, I noticed that with flute too--both hands doing similar motions (as opposed to fiddle, say, or banjo), so some aspects of playing flute came very easy to me, so similar to the feel of certain juggling patterns.
I learned to juggle when I was 13. For the next 6 years, I averaged 8 hours a day at it, and missed only 6 days in all that time (thanks in part to a broken wrist). Talk about obsessed. But it was my first career--I juggled professionally, including a stint as a clown with Ringling Bros. Circus, and performed 7 balls, 5 clubs, and assorted nasty sharp, fiery, and motorized objects.
I don't regret the time spent, except for the opportunity cost of all the jigs and reels I could've learned instead.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: left of right?
Come to think of it, juggling is another activity that's very dualistic, in terms of brain function.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: left of right?
Precisely my point, Watson.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: left of right?
D'oh, I see you said as much in your last sentence. (I've been working way too much lately, and the little squiggly hieroglyphs are all beginning to blur.)
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: left of right?
Left or right brained? Co--o--ohr. I'd be careful spouting that one off on here. Brain things aren't so neatly-packagedly reductionistly simple as either/or left or right. I don't wish to pour cold water on this whole thesis for the sake of it , but creativity vis a vis conformity, relating to cerebral hemispheres is nowadays regarded as a bit of a laughable myth:
http://linus.highpoint.edu/~bblatchl/essay/RightBrainLeft.html
So let us here at The Session think of ourselves as loving, fun-loving, astute and informed. Not party to disinformation leading to myths.
Thre myth isn't the fault of the poster of this thread. Mairtin has just healthily picked up stuff and run with it. But who wants to score a try by throwing a pile of sh!te ?
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by danny flute whistle box
Re: left of right?
I was thinking more about the hemispheres of the brain in relation to motor function rather than the alleged traits particular to each side.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: left of right?
"I have to work so hard to get along in the rational world"
Can you tell me where that is? I've been looking for it all my life.
". . .including a stint as a clown with Ringling Bros. Circus"
Like, serious coolness, dude.
KFG
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by KFG
Re: left of right?
Will and Jack
hey now that ye mention that whole juggling thing,i can juggle and i play the whistle and flute reasonably well...you may be right in that it all links up...u find that juggling is like learning to ride a bike?as in once you learn how,you never forget???maybe its just me.....???
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by person
Re: left of right?
Those motor skills such as juggling are controlled by the cerebellum, not the cerebral hemispheres, so the so-called mythical left/right dichotomy doesn't even figure there.
Hmm.. I have to say, some of the people posting on this one could do well to have a look at some current neuroscience books or websites first before venting. It laeds one to conclude how ill-informed they may be about other topics..including music?
Daniel O'Grumpy,
Neuroscience Dept,
Institute of Psychiatry,
London.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by danny flute whistle box
Re: left or right?
hi. firstly, great you liked the cd heath and yeah, i'm in dublin for a while now at college and will be for the next 3 years so safe enough to come up. which leads nicely on to the next point....
i'm supposed to be looking at this topic for a college presentation on wed the post isn't much to do about brain surgery (i'm studying music not anatomy) but what approaches people take to playin music and maybe how it relates to the rest of their lives and if it's good to have a double approach which i think it is. i don't like the words logical approach or musical approach so left and right is much nicer.
perhaps juggling is a safer topic... nasty, fiery, sharp AND motorised objects did you say?!!! (rather that than 6 pints and a nuroscientist!
all in good fun....
martin.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by martin t
Re: left of right?
Thanks for the link, Danny. I’ve never imagined that the popular notion of right/left brain was anything more than simplistic way of talking about some very complex and poorly understood processes, but whatever the neuroanatomical substrate, people do exhibit degrees of rational vs emotional, literal/concrete vs abstract/imaginative, etc., and it’s interesting to ponder how these things play out in activities like music.
I’d like to know more about right/left handedness and how the two hands work together (or not). When I think of the instruments I’ve tried to play, the hardest were the ones requiring the most integration of the two hands, regardless of the overall simplicity of what I was trying to do. Maybe my corpus callosum was eaten away by termites.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: left of right?
Ditto what Bob says.
The right/left brain stuff is just a figurative way of talking about our different capacities for different ways of thinking, not a literal description of the division of labor between hemispheres.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: left of right?
Yeah, of course it is - but there was a time when people thought that behaviouraland thought process differences could actually be ascribed to the L/R sides of the brain. That's all...OK, I'll shurrup now, cheers guys.
# Posted on December 2nd 2005 by danny flute whistle box
Re: left of right?
Looks Like I missed the bus on that one. Thanks for the link anyway I enjoyed that. I especially liked the phrase "unified mind". Sounds so much healthier than "whole Brainer."
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by Owell Mabee
Re: left of right?
LOL@ Daniel O'Grumpy
# Posted on December 3rd 2005 by Phantom Button