I know some of you harpers on this forum play both lever and pedal harp.
I'm just writing to ask some questions to see how whether you change your technique or not when going between the two?
One of my pupils, aged 12, has started studying at a music school, where she is playing lever harp but is being taught by a pedal harp teacher, The thing is she's only interested in doing traditional music on her harp, and has no interest whatsoever in progressing to the pedal harp. The school insisted that the teacher they hire can teach both classical lever/pedal harp and traditional harp. (she doesn't like trad and refuses to teach it...but thats another story!)
I teach my pupil clarsach outside school and its clarsach that shes wanting to do. We've got a few problems with clashes on technique between myself and the pedal harp teacher.
The pedal harper says she must keep her right hand and arm raised so as her inner arm and wrist don't rest upon the soundboard when playing melodies.
I've come across this myself when I had a one-off pedal harp lesson. Thing is, I can't see the advantage of doing this when playing lever harp, and either can my pupil. In fact she hates playing the harp like that! In my opinion you're fine as long as you're playing in the middle of the string, and actually resting your arm on the soundboard keeps you steady, and helps you to play faster and stronger, important in trad harp.
None of the lever harp players (both pro and non-pro) I know in Scotland play with their right arm up....So....
Is this just a pedal harp technique thing? Is there a reason that you have to do this? I was thinking its maybe to do with the fact that strings are longer and therefore to play in the middle of the string you do acutally have to raise your arm up further. If you know could you tell me why its important to do this?
For those of you who play both, do you play with your arm down when playing lever harp and then with you arm up when playing pedal harp? If so, how easy do you find it swap[ing between the two?
Anyway, would be good to know your thoughts on this, as I hate having to clash with the other teacher on it. As I said my pupil won't be progressing to pedal harp so is it a waste of time getting her to play with her right arm up?
Right now, she's just playing with her right arm up when in the presence of the other teacher, to keep her happy, but I said I'd try and look into the reasons behind it all, before she says anything to the other teacher.
For what it's worth Mrs Ptarmigan tells me she was told by her first & only Harp teacher, in West Berlin 25 years ago, that she should keep her arm up, but then she was a classical musician.
As my wife plays only lever harp, she does play with her arm down & tends to rest her arm on the edge of the soundboard & the only effect that seems to have is to slightly deaden the sound.
She plays like this because it is comfortable for her, which sounds like a pretty good reason to me.
Good luck to your student.
I'm sure with her dual tuition, she will become a wonderful musician & she is fortunate indeed to have such a conscientious tutor as yourself, who is taking such an interest in the best way forward for her.
"... the only effect that seems to have is to slightly deaden the sound."
That's presumably the reason. My observation is that classical technique, on any instrument, is devised to facilitate the exploitation of the full potential of the instrument. If the player rests his or her arm on the soundboard, it will inevitably damp the sound to some degree, thus preventing the harp from producing the tone it is designed to produce. However, I am not for one minute judging Mrs. Ptarmigan or any other harper that plays in this manner - perhaps, in some instances, a slightly deadened sound is preferable.
As for deadening the sound, I gotta disagree I'm afraid! If there is a difference sound wise, it is really minute, and not clear to the naked ear. thanks for the thought though.
I've been doing some more research and it turns out in classical playing theres 2 schools of tecnniquie the SALZEDO method and the FRENCH method. Turns out they're highly disputed amongst pedal harpers to which is best.
Anyway, one of the key differences is the right hand resting on the soundboard (not done in Salzedo), so my pupils other harp tacher must be teaching her in this method.
Salzedo technique is very much about the "visable" effect of the imstrument....how the player moves their arms....apparently Salzedo beleived the show you put on with your arms was just as important as how you played the music.
So.....maybe his thinking is you have to keep you right arm up so it is visablly symetrical with your left arm, therefore pleasing to the eye, and so that its easier to make big expressive gestures.
Not really my style of playing, but fair do's...if you're wearing a big ballgown it might look fine, but while playing jigs and reels?-Don't think expressive gestures are a nescetity then!
Feel quite bad now that I've never looked into all this classical harp technique before. I'm into technique as in, I feel its SO important to pull your fingers/thumbs in strongly (means you can get a bigger dynamic range). But I reckon I really sholud've known before about how theres 2 schools of thought when it comes to classical harp. Shocking considering I've been playing and teaching professionally for a while now!
Anyway, would still be intersting to find out if any salzedo technique players still play salzedos way when they play lever harp. And if they think there is any point in my pupil playing this way, considering she only wants to play trad harp. (she's a fantastic player btw, and knows what she wants to do! one to look out for!)
rachrach, affirmative, classical pedal harpists still are divided into Salzedo (arm off soundboard) and Renie (relaxed, hanging arms) schools. I believe neither are completely correct. Further, each PERSON is built differently: arm, hand and finger length must play into the picture.
Therefore when I teach (have umpteen years of experience behind me) the first thing I do is to try for each student to experiment and feel what position is right for them, according to the MAIN rules which apply for lever AND pedal playing: high thumbs, curved fingers pulled into hand.
I am generally suspicious of a teacher who insists on one particular method, discarding all others.
Main rules I think: thumbs high, relaxed forearm and hands, (like a boxer dancing around, relaxed yet ready to thrust power) and what sounds good?! forearms resting or not, what produces best sound for that person? And are they having fun playing??
I'd echo what Suzique says above. I'm personally not into the flailing arms thing (I practice in a small room, surrounded by Ming vases) and most lever harpists I know keep their right hand slightly resting on the soundboard. I know that Robin Huw Bowen, perfoming on the triple harp, also is of the same opinion.
Some harpists play differently (using the nails) if they're playing a wire-strung harp, as you can't really do this well with the traditional hand position.
I think the other thing that's different is the whole idea of preparing - many players of the small harp go for something like a "floating" position around the correct strings, rather than having the next few notes prepared (ie fingers on, ready to play). However, take this all with a pinch of salt - I do have a pedal harp but to my shame, haven't used it much since I bought it.
Yeah, we play wire-strung harp with relaxed hand positions, like holding a brandy glass (Ann's advice) Much more comfortable than the classical hand positions, but then the way we touch the strings is completely different, we don't pull and pluck the way you guys do.
I like the brandy glass thing - nice image! I have a wire-strung but it is quite difficult to go between those two - more difficult I think than going between gut-strung lever harp and pedal harp. Maybe I'll take a glass or two of brandy to my practice room just to get the idea...
Gloucestershire Mark? Pretty nearby, you should join our harpers' circle. Haven't done any trips to the UK yet, but if you happen to be in Dublin when there's one on, you're more than welcome to join us. The details are on my profile.
When I got interested in learning harp I took lessons from a classical harpist, a student of Grandjany, so I guess she taught me 'French' technique. She was great and understood that all I wanted to play was ITM, but she believed in grounding me with good strong technique - thumbs up, other fingers down, pull into the palm, Long fingers. I can still hear her voice saying 'play - relax - play- relax' to get me to not be tense when playing - to avoid repetitive stress injury. I believe the reason for holding the arms out was so as not to pull the hand out of position. Since I was trained that way, that's the way I play. I only play lever harp and have never played pedal.
However, from watching some really great trad Irish harpers go at dance tunes at tempo while breaking all the rules of the 'technique' I learned, I'd say go with what works for what your student wants to play. I think the important things are getting the tone out of the instrument, maximizing dexterity, and learning to play to avoid injury (like carpal tunnel).
There's a great little book called Preventing and Correcting Harp-Related Injury by Laurie Riley & Michael MacBean. In it they mention avoiding resting the forearm on the sound board as you can damage the tendons inside by repeated rubbing. You don't have to hold the RH arm high to do this, just the wrist itself a little higher. I agree with this and it doesn't appear to interfere with any other technique issues.
question for harpers
question for harpers
Hi there,
I know some of you harpers on this forum play both lever and pedal harp.
I'm just writing to ask some questions to see how whether you change your technique or not when going between the two?
One of my pupils, aged 12, has started studying at a music school, where she is playing lever harp but is being taught by a pedal harp teacher, The thing is she's only interested in doing traditional music on her harp, and has no interest whatsoever in progressing to the pedal harp. The school insisted that the teacher they hire can teach both classical lever/pedal harp and traditional harp. (she doesn't like trad and refuses to teach it...but thats another story!)
I teach my pupil clarsach outside school and its clarsach that shes wanting to do. We've got a few problems with clashes on technique between myself and the pedal harp teacher.
The pedal harper says she must keep her right hand and arm raised so as her inner arm and wrist don't rest upon the soundboard when playing melodies.
I've come across this myself when I had a one-off pedal harp lesson. Thing is, I can't see the advantage of doing this when playing lever harp, and either can my pupil. In fact she hates playing the harp like that! In my opinion you're fine as long as you're playing in the middle of the string, and actually resting your arm on the soundboard keeps you steady, and helps you to play faster and stronger, important in trad harp.
None of the lever harp players (both pro and non-pro) I know in Scotland play with their right arm up....So....
Is this just a pedal harp technique thing? Is there a reason that you have to do this? I was thinking its maybe to do with the fact that strings are longer and therefore to play in the middle of the string you do acutally have to raise your arm up further. If you know could you tell me why its important to do this?
For those of you who play both, do you play with your arm down when playing lever harp and then with you arm up when playing pedal harp? If so, how easy do you find it swap[ing between the two?
Anyway, would be good to know your thoughts on this, as I hate having to clash with the other teacher on it. As I said my pupil won't be progressing to pedal harp so is it a waste of time getting her to play with her right arm up?
Right now, she's just playing with her right arm up when in the presence of the other teacher, to keep her happy, but I said I'd try and look into the reasons behind it all, before she says anything to the other teacher.
thanks!
# Posted on November 27th 2005 by rachrach
Re: question for harpers
Hello there,
Congrats on posting your first thread.
For what it's worth Mrs Ptarmigan tells me she was told by her first & only Harp teacher, in West Berlin 25 years ago, that she should keep her arm up, but then she was a classical musician.
As my wife plays only lever harp, she does play with her arm down & tends to rest her arm on the edge of the soundboard & the only effect that seems to have is to slightly deaden the sound.
She plays like this because it is comfortable for her, which sounds like a pretty good reason to me.
Good luck to your student.
I'm sure with her dual tuition, she will become a wonderful musician & she is fortunate indeed to have such a conscientious tutor as yourself, who is taking such an interest in the best way forward for her.
# Posted on November 27th 2005 by Ptarmigan
Re: question for harpers
"... the only effect that seems to have is to slightly deaden the sound."
That's presumably the reason. My observation is that classical technique, on any instrument, is devised to facilitate the exploitation of the full potential of the instrument. If the player rests his or her arm on the soundboard, it will inevitably damp the sound to some degree, thus preventing the harp from producing the tone it is designed to produce. However, I am not for one minute judging Mrs. Ptarmigan or any other harper that plays in this manner - perhaps, in some instances, a slightly deadened sound is preferable.
# Posted on November 28th 2005 by ragaman
Re: question for harpers
Believe me, there is nowhere you can rest your arm on an accordion to deaden the sound...
# Posted on November 28th 2005 by kjay_bc_box
Re: question for harpers
thanks for your help so far.
As for deadening the sound, I gotta disagree I'm afraid! If there is a difference sound wise, it is really minute, and not clear to the naked ear. thanks for the thought though.
I've been doing some more research and it turns out in classical playing theres 2 schools of tecnniquie the SALZEDO method and the FRENCH method. Turns out they're highly disputed amongst pedal harpers to which is best.
Anyway, one of the key differences is the right hand resting on the soundboard (not done in Salzedo), so my pupils other harp tacher must be teaching her in this method.
Salzedo technique is very much about the "visable" effect of the imstrument....how the player moves their arms....apparently Salzedo beleived the show you put on with your arms was just as important as how you played the music.
So.....maybe his thinking is you have to keep you right arm up so it is visablly symetrical with your left arm, therefore pleasing to the eye, and so that its easier to make big expressive gestures.
Not really my style of playing, but fair do's...if you're wearing a big ballgown it might look fine, but while playing jigs and reels?-Don't think expressive gestures are a nescetity then!
Feel quite bad now that I've never looked into all this classical harp technique before. I'm into technique as in, I feel its SO important to pull your fingers/thumbs in strongly (means you can get a bigger dynamic range). But I reckon I really sholud've known before about how theres 2 schools of thought when it comes to classical harp. Shocking considering I've been playing and teaching professionally for a while now!
Anyway, would still be intersting to find out if any salzedo technique players still play salzedos way when they play lever harp. And if they think there is any point in my pupil playing this way, considering she only wants to play trad harp. (she's a fantastic player btw, and knows what she wants to do! one to look out for!)
# Posted on November 28th 2005 by rachrach
Re: question for harpers
rachrach, affirmative, classical pedal harpists still are divided into Salzedo (arm off soundboard) and Renie (relaxed, hanging arms) schools. I believe neither are completely correct. Further, each PERSON is built differently: arm, hand and finger length must play into the picture.
Therefore when I teach (have umpteen years of experience behind me) the first thing I do is to try for each student to experiment and feel what position is right for them, according to the MAIN rules which apply for lever AND pedal playing: high thumbs, curved fingers pulled into hand.
I am generally suspicious of a teacher who insists on one particular method, discarding all others.
Main rules I think: thumbs high, relaxed forearm and hands, (like a boxer dancing around, relaxed yet ready to thrust power) and what sounds good?! forearms resting or not, what produces best sound for that person? And are they having fun playing??
# Posted on November 28th 2005 by suzique
Re: question for harpers
I'd echo what Suzique says above. I'm personally not into the flailing arms thing (I practice in a small room, surrounded by Ming vases) and most lever harpists I know keep their right hand slightly resting on the soundboard. I know that Robin Huw Bowen, perfoming on the triple harp, also is of the same opinion.
Some harpists play differently (using the nails) if they're playing a wire-strung harp, as you can't really do this well with the traditional hand position.
I think the other thing that's different is the whole idea of preparing - many players of the small harp go for something like a "floating" position around the correct strings, rather than having the next few notes prepared (ie fingers on, ready to play). However, take this all with a pinch of salt - I do have a pedal harp but to my shame, haven't used it much since I bought it.
Mark
# Posted on November 28th 2005 by Mark Harmer
Re: question for harpers
Yeah, we play wire-strung harp with relaxed hand positions, like holding a brandy glass (Ann's advice
) Much more comfortable than the classical hand positions, but then the way we touch the strings is completely different, we don't pull and pluck the way you guys do.
# Posted on November 28th 2005 by tumeltyni
Re: question for harpers
I like the brandy glass thing - nice image! I have a wire-strung but it is quite difficult to go between those two - more difficult I think than going between gut-strung lever harp and pedal harp. Maybe I'll take a glass or two of brandy to my practice room just to get the idea...
# Posted on November 28th 2005 by Mark Harmer
Re: question for harpers
Gloucestershire Mark? Pretty nearby, you should join our harpers' circle. Haven't done any trips to the UK yet, but if you happen to be in Dublin when there's one on, you're more than welcome to join us. The details are on my profile.
# Posted on November 29th 2005 by tumeltyni
Re: question for harpers
When I got interested in learning harp I took lessons from a classical harpist, a student of Grandjany, so I guess she taught me 'French' technique. She was great and understood that all I wanted to play was ITM, but she believed in grounding me with good strong technique - thumbs up, other fingers down, pull into the palm, Long fingers. I can still hear her voice saying 'play - relax - play- relax' to get me to not be tense when playing - to avoid repetitive stress injury. I believe the reason for holding the arms out was so as not to pull the hand out of position. Since I was trained that way, that's the way I play. I only play lever harp and have never played pedal.
However, from watching some really great trad Irish harpers go at dance tunes at tempo while breaking all the rules of the 'technique' I learned, I'd say go with what works for what your student wants to play. I think the important things are getting the tone out of the instrument, maximizing dexterity, and learning to play to avoid injury (like carpal tunnel).
# Posted on December 5th 2005 by drinharp
Re: question for harpers
There's a great little book called Preventing and Correcting Harp-Related Injury by Laurie Riley & Michael MacBean. In it they mention avoiding resting the forearm on the sound board as you can damage the tendons inside by repeated rubbing. You don't have to hold the RH arm high to do this, just the wrist itself a little higher. I agree with this and it doesn't appear to interfere with any other technique issues.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by telyn