I have recently decided to stop going to what used to be a favorite session, and Im considering backing out of another because of the singing. One or two songs a night is my tolerance. Five really get under my skin. Someone grabbing a mike and singing between every set is too much for me to sit through.
In the past three months I've counted one....ONE person being asked to sing, and him being good enough to ask for an encore. The rest IMO (I'll admit there is no H in that) are a waste of time, grating, . . .embarrassing sometimes.
Opinions? How much singing goes on at your sessions?
I would say we have a fair amount of singing. They are all good singers and songs, though. However, this isn't particularly a strict Irish/Celtic session. It's more of a jam I would say. Other sessions I've been to are tune after tune (my personal preference).
Singing is an important part of Irish tradition, and historically pre-dates instrumental sessions. It's well respected in our sessions here in Montana, and even when the person singing doesn't have a great voice, people are polite and attentive in listening. Most of the people who sing in our sessions are good singers and have a good stock of songs. Tunes dominate, but when the members are present who are the good singers, there is usually at least one song a night, later in the evening. The only annoyance for me is when an individual tries to dominate the group with singing OR playing rather than letting the flow of music be a shared experience.
There's not a lot you can do here without seeming rude. However, I've been in the situation where a session that was for a long time tunes-only, with perhaps the odd song now and again, was threatening to become a free-for-all for novice singers. Nightmare! In an established "tune" session, I find that the best way to make your point (once it becomes too much for the resident players) is to be just a little quick in starting up tunes after songs. i.e. don't give the singers a chance to jump in. If they begin to sing after you've started a set, you can carry on regardless and give them dirty looks! Obviously, the same applies for someone starting a tune while someone is singing, which is also the height of bad manners.
By the way, Madden's Pub in Belfast had (and still has, to my knowledge) a rule whereby there is no singing allowed in the upstairs bar, session or no session.
In my experience, the addition of songs is the mark of a well-rounded and fully developed session. Although some sessions exist for the sole purpose of careening through tunes and nothing but tunes all night, most sessions I've been to include songs now and then. Sometimes they come in a chain because one song sparks another, and sometimes a song stands alone during a natural lull in the tunes. Either way is fine by me.
I find songs to be a chance for the musicians to look up from their shoes and reconnect on a more social level--playing instruments together is a great form of communion, but sharing a song can be even more powerful. I also enjoy the change of sound--a human voice can be mighty refreshing after an hour of fiddles, boxes, and whistles. At our Montana sessions, most of our singers are accompanists, so it's their well-deserved chance to take the lead for a change. And if the pub crowd is getting too loud, a song almost always quiets them down--the average punters can yell for hours over diddly eidily notes, but they'll stop shouting as soon as someone revs up a song so they can hear the lyrics.
That said, our local sessions probably average only a song an hour, or three to five songs a night. Against the couple hundred of tunes that rip by, that's not a hardship, even for hardcore instrumentalists.
I agree, songs break up a session nicely, especially something original. What I can't take is one song per tune as you can't get into "The Zone" with the tunes! I'm sorry but I get frustrated if I have to sit through the umpteenth "come all ye", especially if it turns into a singing competition; some of those guys are worse than fiddle players ;¬) Sounds like you're quite lucky, Will, as you have decent singers and a nice balance i.e. one song per four or five sets - that seems spot-on to me.
Yes, lucky indeed...most of our singers are professional quality, and each brings a richness of personality to the songs as well. Of our regulars at the session, we have a man who does "aarrrrr!" songs (drinking songs and sea shanties), another who sings the tar out of "There Were Roses" and other ballads, and a woman who melts the room with the "lost love and yearning" genre. The combination allows them to meet any mood, and they all harmonize beautifully. Which raises the question of singing a capella or with instrumental accompaniment. We do both, mostly depending on what the singer wants and whether the session is running on formality or whiskey....
I presume what Conán means by "The Zone" is that stage when all the musicians are warmed up an the tunes just come flowing out irrepressibly. I think a lot of outsiders to traditional music like to hear a bit of variety in a session - a set of tunes, a traditional song, perhaps the odd blues or contemporary 'folk' number. But what these listeners don't appreciate is that, in that sort of situation, the tune players don't have the chance to come into their own and so they don't get to hear them at their best. I think Conán and I both know of one session where this is sometimes the case.
I have heard that a similar problem sometimes occurs at folk clubs, where the singing majority want an evening of no-nonsense sea shanties and bothy ballads, whilst a small contingent of musicians siezes every opportunity to break into a set of tunes (and we all know what THEY are like once they get started) and persist in providing unwanted accompaniment to every song. In Milltown Malbay, during the Willie Clancy Week, Marrinan's pub devotes itself solely to unaccompanied singing, even posting a sign on the door saying 'Strictly No Instruments Allowed'. Fair enough - there are 13 other pubs, campsites, a bike shed, the pavement etc., where sessions can take place. Laying down rules is one solution, but it seems a bit harsh for your average weekly session (Incidentally, I'm not aware of any rules banning singers from instrumental sessions at Willie Week). An occasional song half-decently sung is sometimes a welcome break, asnd has been clinically proven to lower the incidence of repetitive strain injury.
Marrinan's is a brilliant pub! Had a great time listening to the songs. That is exactly the kind of singers I'd like to hear between sets! Simply fantastic! However, folk singers pulling out 'puff the magic dragon' between sets of reels is very often unwelcome.
Okay...consensus is that I need to chill I guess. Or take a break the next time someone tries to do something clever with Whiskey in the Jar. Or Gypsy Rover. Or Wild Rover.
"Puff the magic Dragon"? You have to be joking?
On a more serious side though, singing is an intregal part of the tradition, as far as people commenting on how bad or otherwise peoples voices are, it really doesn't make that much of a difference. We are all very quick to champion the cause of the neophyte in the session, singers need to learn too, besides, we get a chance to drink while they are singing! See its not all bad!
Oh, no, no, no, "Puff" isn't the worst. *MY* favorite is the singer who sang "and I've got such a long way to go...to make it to the border of West Mayo..." (as in, Christopher Cross's "Ride Like The Wind")
No, really, he did. And with his eyes closed, so you knew he really felt it.
Thats funny, most of my sessions are all tunes. If someone comes in who wants to sing a song then no problem, but for me, I prefer just tunes! Oh and I do hate that thing where one person sings and then everyone in the room decides they want to sing as well in the middle of a tune session. Drives me up the wall.
I find that if, during a song, you behave in exactly the same way the singer behaved during your set of tunes. ie stand at the bar and talk loudly, they get the point
Like everything else in didley dee it's a case of moderation is best.
Quite a lot of our sessions here will have a singer or two present but usually you will find that there is an informal MC or fear and tí who will call the singers. This means that a measure of control is placed on the singing. Perhaps the thing to do is to establish a similar approach - ask a good singer to your session and agree with them that you will call them for one or two songs to 'set the scene' for others.
We have also had the problem of shite singers going on half the night and we remedied that by asking the barman to have a quiet word in their ear about what was acceptable. On one extreme occasion the barman simply asked the plonker to leave, but that really is very rare.
I would also agree with some of the comments above regarding the role of the song in the session. The singer doesn't need to have a great voice but has to be able to out the song across. Some of the best singers I've heard have a voice like gravel but are able to command respect and order from the audience. It can quiet down a noisy crowd and make for a better (quieter) atmosphere for the enjoyment of the tunes.
ok... I'm primarily a tune-lover... songs can be great, but I find that often there's not enough thought and effort put into a song. It seems as though people find it acceptable to sing a song when you simply know the words (and often not even that). Meanwhile one is expected to spend (and should spend) ages over tunes simply getting the rhythm, breathing, ornamentation before it is considered playable (and at the low end of playable). That being said, I do like a good song though.
One other thing I have a problem with (I hesitate to say this cause I'm usually really easy going... ) is loud humming while someone is singing. Often I've heard someone singing a really beautiful piece, but I can't concentrate on it because someone who might have heard the tune once before thinks it's great if they loudly hum the tune, as if to prove they know it or something.
Reading the original letter, what the hell is a bloody mic. doing in a session?
I must admit that's one of my pet hates - amplification of traditional music in a session pub. O K it's required in a folk club setting, but I'm dead against it in a session pub. You certainly have no chance of creating a natural ambiance with some eegit yodling into a Mic., & it is nigh impossible to relate musically to musicians around you with mics. sucking your music away from you. I'm sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, keep trad. music live & natural, & if the crowd is so noisy that you need amps to be heard, then forget it - go find yourself another pub.
As for singers & songs in sessions, there's nothing finer than a song or two, or three, to complete a really good session, but I've tried to run half & half sessions so many times & I've come to the conclusion that they simply just don't work. There's this competition thing always seems to develop, when the singers are trying to get in more songs, & the musicians are trying to fit in more tunes, & so at the end of each song or tune there's this tension as everyone tries to get in first, which really spoils the atmoshere. Musicians, in a tune session, should feel free to relax at the end of a set, to discuss the tunes played, & / or discuss the next tunes without any pressure from singers, & the same goes for singers in a song session.
Inevitably if you have a bunch of singers around a session, & one gets to sing, they will all want to sing, & if one sings a real beezer of a song then as sure as eggs is eggs, someone will want to sing a better one.
I've come to the conclusion that the only way it really works is to have a tune session with an odd song, or a song session with the odd tune, then everyone knows the score.
As for ability, of course a singer should have done his homework & learned the words, & by the same token a musician should know his tunes, but I have no problem with nerves getting the better of an inexperienced singer or musician. We all had to start off somewhere, & when we were green & crap, some kindly folk let us make fools of ourselves a few times, until we started making a decent fist of it. So give the greenhorns a chance. I personally couldn't stand up & sing a song in front of a crowd to save myself, so I'm certainly not going to critisize anyone else for trying, unless it is obvious that they simply don't know their material, then that's just plain sloppy.
I have also heard that complaint before, that singers talk all the way through the tunes, but then so do most folk, but I personally don't have a problem with that. It's far more natural to have a bit of chat going on as you play. I believe you can enjoy music without silently listening to each note, but to appreciate a song you need a bit of hush. They are totally different beasties, songs & tunes, & as such, need to be treated differently.
I've played in pubs full of tourists before, who had obviously never experienced a session before, & who all sat in silence as we played - a very weird atmosphere indeed, especially when they were silent after each set as well. Give me a bit of chat every time to play over. We had a bus load of Japanese tourists come into our session pub a couple of weeks ago & just stand en masse right in front of us, quietly staring at us - weeird! I just wanted to scream at them TALK TALK!
There's two or three singers at our local session, so we have 3/4 songs a night, which I think it's OK, although I can see Thygress' point.
Under the risk of opening a new line of discussions, I'd like to explain something that really p*** me off. I experienced it in several places, and especially this summer in Co. Cork, Ireland:
Imagine you go to a great session, it takes place as an ending to a Music Festival held in town, which means there're some musicians from the bands playing. A good amount of brilliant musicians playing lovely tunes at a neck-breaking speed. The pub is packed, you can't even see all of the musicians. Most of the people in the pub are locals, a few tourists. They're scremaing each other from one pub corner to the other. The noise is so loud that it takes you to rounds of a tune to identifiy it. The musicians are struggling to hear themselves. Suddendly, the set is over and someone starts singing. No matter how crappy he/she is, no matter how dreadful is the song. Automatically many people starts hushing the talkers until complete silence is made, so everybody can hear the song. Sorry about that, but I SIMPLY CAN'T STAND IT !!!
How come people cares so much about songs and so little about the music?
Any good explanation?
PS. I forgot to mention that, inevitably, the session eventually becomes a sort of songs contest, and the whole pub (except me, the weird one) ends singing every single song.
I know a singer who is not that great, every time he sings everyone has to hush and if they dont he will hurl abuse at the poor sod who coughed in the corner!! But when the tunes are going on, if he isnt trying to back it in the wrong key he talks really, really loudly - even if there is just one musician playing. That really makes me mad!
I agree with you 100% in re mic's at session, but I have no say in the matter. The three sessions I've played regularly are in bars that seem to expect it (two in Irish clubs), and I'll grudgingly admit that in the primary venue sound is utterly lost without it, sometimes from one side of the circle to the other. At this particular session, where I believe it is a paying gig for the lead fiddler, the owners want the music heard, and the acousitcs are wretched.
I'm trying to find out how to set up a nice little sit in the corner 4-5 person session all of the same level of (non) expertise. All that is required is a bar willing to turn the jukebox off for 2.5 hours, and two solid melody players. Anyone have luck with this?
Tyghress, I have to say, if I were at a session with a mike, I wouldnt go again. I'd find somewhere else, its the most disturbing thing and it totally ruins the experience! Lets all move back to ireland lads, they wouldnt dare mic up a session there )
I feel compassion for all the experiences I read here about bad singers and (God forbid) microphones. We've been relatively lucky with the type of locations we have here and with the people, too. The worst we've had is what I call a "swooper", the singer or player who has talent but wants to dominate as if the session is their venue to "swoop" in and take the "spotlight" so to speak. It's grating, but we've tolerated those times and survived. Will's sessions in Helena, Montana, and our sessions here in Bozeman, Montana, (which often have visits from Butte or Helena players/singers) have been a delight to all for the most part. We are approaching ten years for the longest running Bozeman session in the same spot and many regulars have been there from the start. We used to have a young Irish speaking member who taught Gaelic classes. He grew up in a family that spent half the year in the US and half the year in Ireland and spoke English, Irish, and French. He didn't have a great singing voice, but he had a great way of putting a song across in Irish. He enlisted in the Army (in Butte, on St. Patrick's day) and was sent off to language training to learn Arabic. The songs that are sung here in a session are so well fit into the tunes that the "zone" so to speak is seamless. They enhance rather detract from the session and I'm sorry to hear that so many other sessions are not getting that kind of experience.
I agree - a session where each musician is miked up or plugged in simply ceases to be a session. There is one session I go to from time to time, however, where a single mic is hung unobtrusively from the ceiling above the table around which the musicians sit. It is in a large pub, with rather dead acoustics, and the idea is simply to make the music audible to people who are unable to get a seat near where the musicians are - not to amplify it up to 'pub gig' volume. I have to admit, when I first went there and saw the mic, I was somewhat put off, and tried to hide from it, but I soon forgot it was there.
While you are playing, you are unaware that the music is coming from anywhere other than the insruments themselves.
Anyone who has read the sleeve notes to Paddy In The Smoke, recounting the 'birth' of the Irish pub session, will recall than there is one South London pub mentioned where the session was miked up - and that was back in the early '60s. Of course, mics in sessions should be avoided wherever possible, but perhaps they are harmless enough if used properly.
I missed the origional post. But re: singing at sessions - One stratagy that can work is for a singer to sing the words to a dance tune the musicians are playing. Thsi has to be done very tastefuly or it can be offensive. usually helps if you rehearse with a few of the musicians beforehand.
I like your idea Bob - although in very limited circumstances and only for those tunes that lend themselves to this type of treatment; come to think of it aren't we really getting back to lilting (or didling) which was popular long ago when musical instruments were in short supply!!
The reason I think this approach is not "totally off the wall" goes back to one of those big sessions at the 2001 Listowel Fleadh where two musicians from more Northern parts (I think they were from Newry) did an unforgettable rendition of the Teetotaller reel - the words of the song related to the frustrations of an ambitious mother trying to teach her reluctant son (no it wasn't Michael Flatley) to step dance with disasterous results while after every verse the whole session played the first and second parts of the reel. This proved to be highly entertaining for both musicians and the audience - maybe someone out there knows the words and could post them on the site sometime!
Oh, yes please! Someone please post it, we have a show coming up next year for our dance school, and I'd love to do a song such as that. Divil? You're in Newry, aren't you?
I'd just like to chuck in a comment from a singer's point of view. Shush everybody!! (er.. joke..)
I agree that songs should be in moderation - about one per 45 minutes or an hour, I'd say. And they shouldn't have three dozen verses, either. But there wouldn't be much point having any songs at all if people didn't quieten down - *especially* for unaccompanied songs.
Remember that when you're playing tunes, there's usually a bunch of you, maybe even a dozen or more, all bashing away at the same tune. When it's a singer, there's just the one voice against the entire pub...
Plus many of the instruments have the advantage of a strong high-end range - e.g. fiddles, whistles, pipes. The chatter of voices in the pub is in the same mid-range that the singer is restricted to. So it's harder for a lone voice to cut through background noise, than a lone fiddle, unless you're talking about an operatically trained voice, and I haven't seen many of those at sessions... (those people can really make the windows rattle).
Certainly I'd shut up for a solo slow air, but as Ptarmigan pointed out, you don't really want people to sit in silence through a session, do you? The quietening-down for a song can be quite beneficial to the players, I think, as it interrupts the loudness gradient of the evening, not to mention adding a bit of contrast.
I avoid singing in a noisy pub anyway, if possible - it's a bit pointless.
But I do have another gripe, and that's being accompanied by someone who doesn't know (or properly understand) the song, or who imposes the wrong speed on it, or nails it to a beat when you normally sing it freely - and wasn't invited to accompany you in the first place. This puts me off singing at some sessions, to be honest; you end up with no choice but to sing something well-known and in a solid 4-square time, since anything else will get mangled horribly by a tactless guitarist. And you can't even throw them by singing in F sharp, cos they're so fast with those capos...
Hmm, I've now revealed to you Anti-Song people the perfect technique for deterring singers... you be nice now!
When I was in Galway last year, I sat in on many a session with my guitar. When I was asked to sing songs, I sang songs. It didn't seem like that much of a big deal. I think the best thing to do is to play well, be sincere, wait to be asked. I played at the Crane, and at Tig Coili's and also at Taafe's. Had a great time. Crane's apparently has an upstairs where the more serious trad musicians hang. Next time I'll go up there and start learning the real thing. By the wya if you're ever in Galway, look up Ruth Dillon, Johnny Mullins and their crowd. Good people. Good musicians. Johnny's a great box player and Ruth sings like a great bird.
In the wise words of our very own Ptarmigan -
"Singers and musicians - Oil and water, John,...........oil and water!"
(see John J's excellent thread 'Another night at the circle of death)
Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
I have recently decided to stop going to what used to be a favorite session, and Im considering backing out of another because of the singing. One or two songs a night is my tolerance. Five really get under my skin. Someone grabbing a mike and singing between every set is too much for me to sit through.
In the past three months I've counted one....ONE person being asked to sing, and him being good enough to ask for an encore. The rest IMO (I'll admit there is no H in that) are a waste of time, grating, . . .embarrassing sometimes.
Opinions? How much singing goes on at your sessions?
# Posted on September 2nd 2002 by Tyghress
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
I would say we have a fair amount of singing. They are all good singers and songs, though. However, this isn't particularly a strict Irish/Celtic session. It's more of a jam I would say. Other sessions I've been to are tune after tune (my personal preference).
# Posted on September 2nd 2002 by SPeak
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
Singing is an important part of Irish tradition, and historically pre-dates instrumental sessions. It's well respected in our sessions here in Montana, and even when the person singing doesn't have a great voice, people are polite and attentive in listening. Most of the people who sing in our sessions are good singers and have a good stock of songs. Tunes dominate, but when the members are present who are the good singers, there is usually at least one song a night, later in the evening. The only annoyance for me is when an individual tries to dominate the group with singing OR playing rather than letting the flow of music be a shared experience.
Alice
# Posted on September 2nd 2002 by aliceflynn
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
There's not a lot you can do here without seeming rude. However, I've been in the situation where a session that was for a long time tunes-only, with perhaps the odd song now and again, was threatening to become a free-for-all for novice singers. Nightmare! In an established "tune" session, I find that the best way to make your point (once it becomes too much for the resident players) is to be just a little quick in starting up tunes after songs. i.e. don't give the singers a chance to jump in. If they begin to sing after you've started a set, you can carry on regardless and give them dirty looks! Obviously, the same applies for someone starting a tune while someone is singing, which is also the height of bad manners.
By the way, Madden's Pub in Belfast had (and still has, to my knowledge) a rule whereby there is no singing allowed in the upstairs bar, session or no session.
Conán
# Posted on September 2nd 2002 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
In my experience, the addition of songs is the mark of a well-rounded and fully developed session. Although some sessions exist for the sole purpose of careening through tunes and nothing but tunes all night, most sessions I've been to include songs now and then. Sometimes they come in a chain because one song sparks another, and sometimes a song stands alone during a natural lull in the tunes. Either way is fine by me.
I find songs to be a chance for the musicians to look up from their shoes and reconnect on a more social level--playing instruments together is a great form of communion, but sharing a song can be even more powerful. I also enjoy the change of sound--a human voice can be mighty refreshing after an hour of fiddles, boxes, and whistles. At our Montana sessions, most of our singers are accompanists, so it's their well-deserved chance to take the lead for a change. And if the pub crowd is getting too loud, a song almost always quiets them down--the average punters can yell for hours over diddly eidily notes, but they'll stop shouting as soon as someone revs up a song so they can hear the lyrics.
# Posted on September 2nd 2002 by Will CPT
That said, our local sessions probably average only a song an hour, or three to five songs a night. Against the couple hundred of tunes that rip by, that's not a hardship, even for hardcore instrumentalists.
# Posted on September 2nd 2002 by Will CPT
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
I agree, songs break up a session nicely, especially something original. What I can't take is one song per tune as you can't get into "The Zone" with the tunes! I'm sorry but I get frustrated if I have to sit through the umpteenth "come all ye", especially if it turns into a singing competition; some of those guys are worse than fiddle players ;¬) Sounds like you're quite lucky, Will, as you have decent singers and a nice balance i.e. one song per four or five sets - that seems spot-on to me.
# Posted on September 2nd 2002 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
Yes, lucky indeed...most of our singers are professional quality, and each brings a richness of personality to the songs as well. Of our regulars at the session, we have a man who does "aarrrrr!" songs (drinking songs and sea shanties), another who sings the tar out of "There Were Roses" and other ballads, and a woman who melts the room with the "lost love and yearning" genre. The combination allows them to meet any mood, and they all harmonize beautifully. Which raises the question of singing a capella or with instrumental accompaniment. We do both, mostly depending on what the singer wants and whether the session is running on formality or whiskey....
# Posted on September 2nd 2002 by Will CPT
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
I presume what Conán means by "The Zone" is that stage when all the musicians are warmed up an the tunes just come flowing out irrepressibly. I think a lot of outsiders to traditional music like to hear a bit of variety in a session - a set of tunes, a traditional song, perhaps the odd blues or contemporary 'folk' number. But what these listeners don't appreciate is that, in that sort of situation, the tune players don't have the chance to come into their own and so they don't get to hear them at their best. I think Conán and I both know of one session where this is sometimes the case.
I have heard that a similar problem sometimes occurs at folk clubs, where the singing majority want an evening of no-nonsense sea shanties and bothy ballads, whilst a small contingent of musicians siezes every opportunity to break into a set of tunes (and we all know what THEY are like once they get started) and persist in providing unwanted accompaniment to every song. In Milltown Malbay, during the Willie Clancy Week, Marrinan's pub devotes itself solely to unaccompanied singing, even posting a sign on the door saying 'Strictly No Instruments Allowed'. Fair enough - there are 13 other pubs, campsites, a bike shed, the pavement etc., where sessions can take place. Laying down rules is one solution, but it seems a bit harsh for your average weekly session (Incidentally, I'm not aware of any rules banning singers from instrumental sessions at Willie Week). An occasional song half-decently sung is sometimes a welcome break, asnd has been clinically proven to lower the incidence of repetitive strain injury.
# Posted on September 2nd 2002 by ragaman
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
Marrinan's is a brilliant pub! Had a great time listening to the songs. That is exactly the kind of singers I'd like to hear between sets! Simply fantastic! However, folk singers pulling out 'puff the magic dragon' between sets of reels is very often unwelcome.
# Posted on September 2nd 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
Okay...consensus is that I need to chill I guess. Or take a break the next time someone tries to do something clever with Whiskey in the Jar. Or Gypsy Rover. Or Wild Rover.
# Posted on September 2nd 2002 by Tyghress
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
"Puff the magic Dragon"? You have to be joking?
On a more serious side though, singing is an intregal part of the tradition, as far as people commenting on how bad or otherwise peoples voices are, it really doesn't make that much of a difference. We are all very quick to champion the cause of the neophyte in the session, singers need to learn too, besides, we get a chance to drink while they are singing! See its not all bad!
# Posted on September 2nd 2002 by macfion
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
Oh, no, no, no, "Puff" isn't the worst. *MY* favorite is the singer who sang "and I've got such a long way to go...to make it to the border of West Mayo..." (as in, Christopher Cross's "Ride Like The Wind")
No, really, he did. And with his eyes closed, so you knew he really felt it.
Zina
# Posted on September 2nd 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
Thats funny, most of my sessions are all tunes. If someone comes in who wants to sing a song then no problem, but for me, I prefer just tunes! Oh and I do hate that thing where one person sings and then everyone in the room decides they want to sing as well in the middle of a tune session. Drives me up the wall.
# Posted on September 2nd 2002 by bb
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
I find that if, during a song, you behave in exactly the same way the singer behaved during your set of tunes. ie stand at the bar and talk loudly, they get the point
# Posted on September 2nd 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
Like everything else in didley dee it's a case of moderation is best.
Quite a lot of our sessions here will have a singer or two present but usually you will find that there is an informal MC or fear and tí who will call the singers. This means that a measure of control is placed on the singing. Perhaps the thing to do is to establish a similar approach - ask a good singer to your session and agree with them that you will call them for one or two songs to 'set the scene' for others.
We have also had the problem of shite singers going on half the night and we remedied that by asking the barman to have a quiet word in their ear about what was acceptable. On one extreme occasion the barman simply asked the plonker to leave, but that really is very rare.
I would also agree with some of the comments above regarding the role of the song in the session. The singer doesn't need to have a great voice but has to be able to out the song across. Some of the best singers I've heard have a voice like gravel but are able to command respect and order from the audience. It can quiet down a noisy crowd and make for a better (quieter) atmosphere for the enjoyment of the tunes.
# Posted on September 2nd 2002 by breandan
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
ok... I'm primarily a tune-lover... songs can be great, but I find that often there's not enough thought and effort put into a song. It seems as though people find it acceptable to sing a song when you simply know the words (and often not even that). Meanwhile one is expected to spend (and should spend) ages over tunes simply getting the rhythm, breathing, ornamentation before it is considered playable (and at the low end of playable). That being said, I do like a good song though.
One other thing I have a problem with (I hesitate to say this cause I'm usually really easy going... ) is loud humming while someone is singing. Often I've heard someone singing a really beautiful piece, but I can't concentrate on it because someone who might have heard the tune once before thinks it's great if they loudly hum the tune, as if to prove they know it or something.
not necessary.
really.
# Posted on September 3rd 2002 by searai
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
Reading the original letter, what the hell is a bloody mic. doing in a session?
I must admit that's one of my pet hates - amplification of traditional music in a session pub. O K it's required in a folk club setting, but I'm dead against it in a session pub. You certainly have no chance of creating a natural ambiance with some eegit yodling into a Mic., & it is nigh impossible to relate musically to musicians around you with mics. sucking your music away from you. I'm sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, keep trad. music live & natural, & if the crowd is so noisy that you need amps to be heard, then forget it - go find yourself another pub.
As for singers & songs in sessions, there's nothing finer than a song or two, or three, to complete a really good session, but I've tried to run half & half sessions so many times & I've come to the conclusion that they simply just don't work. There's this competition thing always seems to develop, when the singers are trying to get in more songs, & the musicians are trying to fit in more tunes, & so at the end of each song or tune there's this tension as everyone tries to get in first, which really spoils the atmoshere. Musicians, in a tune session, should feel free to relax at the end of a set, to discuss the tunes played, & / or discuss the next tunes without any pressure from singers, & the same goes for singers in a song session.
Inevitably if you have a bunch of singers around a session, & one gets to sing, they will all want to sing, & if one sings a real beezer of a song then as sure as eggs is eggs, someone will want to sing a better one.
I've come to the conclusion that the only way it really works is to have a tune session with an odd song, or a song session with the odd tune, then everyone knows the score.
As for ability, of course a singer should have done his homework & learned the words, & by the same token a musician should know his tunes, but I have no problem with nerves getting the better of an inexperienced singer or musician. We all had to start off somewhere, & when we were green & crap, some kindly folk let us make fools of ourselves a few times, until we started making a decent fist of it. So give the greenhorns a chance. I personally couldn't stand up & sing a song in front of a crowd to save myself, so I'm certainly not going to critisize anyone else for trying, unless it is obvious that they simply don't know their material, then that's just plain sloppy.
I have also heard that complaint before, that singers talk all the way through the tunes, but then so do most folk, but I personally don't have a problem with that. It's far more natural to have a bit of chat going on as you play. I believe you can enjoy music without silently listening to each note, but to appreciate a song you need a bit of hush. They are totally different beasties, songs & tunes, & as such, need to be treated differently.
I've played in pubs full of tourists before, who had obviously never experienced a session before, & who all sat in silence as we played - a very weird atmosphere indeed, especially when they were silent after each set as well. Give me a bit of chat every time to play over. We had a bus load of Japanese tourists come into our session pub a couple of weeks ago & just stand en masse right in front of us, quietly staring at us - weeird! I just wanted to scream at them TALK TALK!
# Posted on September 3rd 2002 by Ptarmigan
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
There's two or three singers at our local session, so we have 3/4 songs a night, which I think it's OK, although I can see Thygress' point.
Under the risk of opening a new line of discussions, I'd like to explain something that really p*** me off. I experienced it in several places, and especially this summer in Co. Cork, Ireland:
Imagine you go to a great session, it takes place as an ending to a Music Festival held in town, which means there're some musicians from the bands playing. A good amount of brilliant musicians playing lovely tunes at a neck-breaking speed. The pub is packed, you can't even see all of the musicians. Most of the people in the pub are locals, a few tourists. They're scremaing each other from one pub corner to the other. The noise is so loud that it takes you to rounds of a tune to identifiy it. The musicians are struggling to hear themselves. Suddendly, the set is over and someone starts singing. No matter how crappy he/she is, no matter how dreadful is the song. Automatically many people starts hushing the talkers until complete silence is made, so everybody can hear the song. Sorry about that, but I SIMPLY CAN'T STAND IT !!!
How come people cares so much about songs and so little about the music?
Any good explanation?
PS. I forgot to mention that, inevitably, the session eventually becomes a sort of songs contest, and the whole pub (except me, the weird one) ends singing every single song.
# Posted on September 3rd 2002 by Toni Ribas
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
I know a singer who is not that great, every time he sings everyone has to hush and if they dont he will hurl abuse at the poor sod who coughed in the corner!! But when the tunes are going on, if he isnt trying to back it in the wrong key he talks really, really loudly - even if there is just one musician playing. That really makes me mad!
# Posted on September 3rd 2002 by bb
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
Hurrar
more people who can't stand that double standard of hush for singers
# Posted on September 3rd 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
Dear Ptarmigan,
I agree with you 100% in re mic's at session, but I have no say in the matter. The three sessions I've played regularly are in bars that seem to expect it (two in Irish clubs), and I'll grudgingly admit that in the primary venue sound is utterly lost without it, sometimes from one side of the circle to the other. At this particular session, where I believe it is a paying gig for the lead fiddler, the owners want the music heard, and the acousitcs are wretched.
I'm trying to find out how to set up a nice little sit in the corner 4-5 person session all of the same level of (non) expertise. All that is required is a bar willing to turn the jukebox off for 2.5 hours, and two solid melody players. Anyone have luck with this?
# Posted on September 3rd 2002 by Tyghress
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
Tyghress, I have to say, if I were at a session with a mike, I wouldnt go again. I'd find somewhere else, its the most disturbing thing and it totally ruins the experience! Lets all move back to ireland lads, they wouldnt dare mic up a session there
)
# Posted on September 4th 2002 by bb
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
I feel compassion for all the experiences I read here about bad singers and (God forbid) microphones. We've been relatively lucky with the type of locations we have here and with the people, too. The worst we've had is what I call a "swooper", the singer or player who has talent but wants to dominate as if the session is their venue to "swoop" in and take the "spotlight" so to speak. It's grating, but we've tolerated those times and survived. Will's sessions in Helena, Montana, and our sessions here in Bozeman, Montana, (which often have visits from Butte or Helena players/singers) have been a delight to all for the most part. We are approaching ten years for the longest running Bozeman session in the same spot and many regulars have been there from the start. We used to have a young Irish speaking member who taught Gaelic classes. He grew up in a family that spent half the year in the US and half the year in Ireland and spoke English, Irish, and French. He didn't have a great singing voice, but he had a great way of putting a song across in Irish. He enlisted in the Army (in Butte, on St. Patrick's day) and was sent off to language training to learn Arabic. The songs that are sung here in a session are so well fit into the tunes that the "zone" so to speak is seamless. They enhance rather detract from the session and I'm sorry to hear that so many other sessions are not getting that kind of experience.
Alice
# Posted on September 4th 2002 by aliceflynn
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
I must have killed this thread with that over-the-top sympathy note...
# Posted on September 5th 2002 by aliceflynn
Mics in sessions
I agree - a session where each musician is miked up or plugged in simply ceases to be a session. There is one session I go to from time to time, however, where a single mic is hung unobtrusively from the ceiling above the table around which the musicians sit. It is in a large pub, with rather dead acoustics, and the idea is simply to make the music audible to people who are unable to get a seat near where the musicians are - not to amplify it up to 'pub gig' volume. I have to admit, when I first went there and saw the mic, I was somewhat put off, and tried to hide from it, but I soon forgot it was there.
While you are playing, you are unaware that the music is coming from anywhere other than the insruments themselves.
Anyone who has read the sleeve notes to Paddy In The Smoke, recounting the 'birth' of the Irish pub session, will recall than there is one South London pub mentioned where the session was miked up - and that was back in the early '60s. Of course, mics in sessions should be avoided wherever possible, but perhaps they are harmless enough if used properly.
# Posted on September 5th 2002 by ragaman
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
I missed the origional post. But re: singing at sessions - One stratagy that can work is for a singer to sing the words to a dance tune the musicians are playing. Thsi has to be done very tastefuly or it can be offensive. usually helps if you rehearse with a few of the musicians beforehand.
Bob Lusk
# Posted on September 8th 2002 by boblusk
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
I like your idea Bob - although in very limited circumstances and only for those tunes that lend themselves to this type of treatment; come to think of it aren't we really getting back to lilting (or didling) which was popular long ago when musical instruments were in short supply!!
The reason I think this approach is not "totally off the wall" goes back to one of those big sessions at the 2001 Listowel Fleadh where two musicians from more Northern parts (I think they were from Newry) did an unforgettable rendition of the Teetotaller reel - the words of the song related to the frustrations of an ambitious mother trying to teach her reluctant son (no it wasn't Michael Flatley) to step dance with disasterous results while after every verse the whole session played the first and second parts of the reel. This proved to be highly entertaining for both musicians and the audience - maybe someone out there knows the words and could post them on the site sometime!
# Posted on September 9th 2002 by Bannerman
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
Oh, yes please! Someone please post it, we have a show coming up next year for our dance school, and I'd love to do a song such as that. Divil? You're in Newry, aren't you?
Zina
# Posted on September 9th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
I'd just like to chuck in a comment from a singer's point of view. Shush everybody!! (er.. joke..)
I agree that songs should be in moderation - about one per 45 minutes or an hour, I'd say. And they shouldn't have three dozen verses, either. But there wouldn't be much point having any songs at all if people didn't quieten down - *especially* for unaccompanied songs.
Remember that when you're playing tunes, there's usually a bunch of you, maybe even a dozen or more, all bashing away at the same tune. When it's a singer, there's just the one voice against the entire pub...
Plus many of the instruments have the advantage of a strong high-end range - e.g. fiddles, whistles, pipes. The chatter of voices in the pub is in the same mid-range that the singer is restricted to. So it's harder for a lone voice to cut through background noise, than a lone fiddle, unless you're talking about an operatically trained voice, and I haven't seen many of those at sessions... (those people can really make the windows rattle).
Certainly I'd shut up for a solo slow air, but as Ptarmigan pointed out, you don't really want people to sit in silence through a session, do you? The quietening-down for a song can be quite beneficial to the players, I think, as it interrupts the loudness gradient of the evening, not to mention adding a bit of contrast.
I avoid singing in a noisy pub anyway, if possible - it's a bit pointless.
But I do have another gripe, and that's being accompanied by someone who doesn't know (or properly understand) the song, or who imposes the wrong speed on it, or nails it to a beat when you normally sing it freely - and wasn't invited to accompany you in the first place. This puts me off singing at some sessions, to be honest; you end up with no choice but to sing something well-known and in a solid 4-square time, since anything else will get mangled horribly by a tactless guitarist. And you can't even throw them by singing in F sharp, cos they're so fast with those capos...
Hmm, I've now revealed to you Anti-Song people the perfect technique for deterring singers... you be nice now!
# Posted on September 11th 2002 by Nell
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
When I was in Galway last year, I sat in on many a session with my guitar. When I was asked to sing songs, I sang songs. It didn't seem like that much of a big deal. I think the best thing to do is to play well, be sincere, wait to be asked. I played at the Crane, and at Tig Coili's and also at Taafe's. Had a great time. Crane's apparently has an upstairs where the more serious trad musicians hang. Next time I'll go up there and start learning the real thing. By the wya if you're ever in Galway, look up Ruth Dillon, Johnny Mullins and their crowd. Good people. Good musicians. Johnny's a great box player and Ruth sings like a great bird.
# Posted on September 11th 2002 by lbullock
Re: Am I too sensitive about singing in session?
In the wise words of our very own Ptarmigan -
"Singers and musicians - Oil and water, John,...........oil and water!"
(see John J's excellent thread 'Another night at the circle of death)
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by domnull