I have been asked about this by people I have invited to sessions to have a look and listen and they all say the same thing "why do they all look so grumpy ?" they look like they are sitting at mass I thought these sessions were supposed to be good cráic etc
I cant answer it seriously so I just say oh its such an intense hard thing to do you have to concentrate 100% or usually if a person makes a glitch in one of the tunes it throws the others off balance a little and they get the strop over it. But I believe there are deeper reasons for this overlooked part of ITM because heaven forbid if a stranger walked in with his instrument and they all looked up briefly with the irish get back stare he would probably think oh its a little cliqué I wont bother box fiddle flute bódhran banjo guitarist
I sent a bluegrass friend a pic of our local session, and his comment was "wow, everyone looks so unanimated." (I said, "well, yes, it's a PICTURE, not a movie.")
Luckily, even if I don't break out in big smiles, I can still be having a good time. Granted, usualy I *do* -- break out in big smiles, I mean.
The trouble is a lot of trad players look like they are struggling and fighting the tunes out and in a way they just look simply frustrated but I doubht they would be able to admit this as it will make them feel incompitent, the eye's dont lie big grin
Many people ask me how I can play the flute and be laughing or smiling. I just love playing.
There are many times I've been to Mass, and nobody has looked grumpy at all. Especially those celebrated by the recently late Fr. Tom Cass, in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. People would say that they were going to a Gas Cass Mass!
Brianx
Might I add that he was one of the great supporters of Irish Music and Culture on Tyneside.
Well, most traditional players I know look grumpy as well. Personally it doesn't really bother me if the "audience" at a session thinks so. It's just the way it is - and may be something to do with the neural circuitry used for smiling/communicating being used to play music - and therefore unavailable to put on a smile - I wonder? Any neuroscientists among our members who might be able to confirm, or blow that theory out of the water?
I think, for most of us, playing music is such an all-consuming process, that we don't have much choice regarding our facial expressions. Do the Yakuts criticize their Shamans for foaming at the mouth during their mushroom-induced trances?
I've seen all manner of fixed expressions on the faces of musicians in full flight, ranging from serene smiles, through vacant or piercing stares, to the grotesquest grimaces. I have seen photos of myself playing. They are generally not pretty, although I would not describe my expression as grumpy - more one of extreme concentration, verging on constipation.
Mac - Joe looks grumpy even when he's not playing. He's only happy when he's miserable.
Tell these people to go and look at the dreadful rictus grin on the faces of people who do ballroom dancing. It is absolutely hideous - looks like they took strychnine.
And clowns - look at clowns - it's only painted on!
And then look at other musicians - the only ones you see with big smiles are the people miming on TV pop shows.
Golfers frown in concentration, and birdwatchers screw up their faces against the sun, and rock climbers grimace with the effort - do these people get loads of punters bitching about them "not looking like they're enjoying it"
And I like that one where is says "play on an accordion", rather than "play an accordion". Like the best thing for one is to get your toy soldiers out and have a battle across the bellows
Some would argue that that's the better use for a bodhran.
I've also wondered why everyone takes everything so seriously, although I am slightly miffed at the concept that the rhythm players are the only ones smiling, insinuating that- correct me if I'm wrong- the only people who look to be having fun are the people who screw up the music.
However, at most of the sessions I go to, you see a lot of people who look to be having fun; some are grinning like madmen; in fact, you have some people (me included) who actually get physically bouncy during some of the livelier tunes, sometimes to the point of resembling epilepsy. So I don't think grouchiness or bad-tempered-ness (if that's not a word, it should be) is universal.
We played a gig at Franham Maltings last week and the guitarist's wife came to see us (the first time). Afterwards she said she had enjoyed the music but you all looked "so serious whilst you were playing ...couldn't you smile more?"
I pointed out it was difficult to smile with a fiddle under your jaw or whilst playing flute or whistles. Harriet, our harpist, smiles constantly whilst playing so she more than makes up for us. I am working on it but it's a rather gratuitous rictus which make me look as if I have piles.
It's not just in The Music - for most of my teenage years people kept meithering me to "stop looking so serious".
I'm sorry - but that's just what the front of my head looks like. It's not my fault if shallow people choose to interpret my physical appearance to fit some fiction they choose to believe.
(And after my teenage years? I developed an acid response, which made people stop.)
I find I play better if I look more relaxed and like I am having fun. If you breathe now and then and try to fake relaxed, even if you're thinking, "Oh my God, I can't play this tune this fast.... aaaaahhh!!" then you might actually be more relaxed and able to play that tune. A lot of pipers suffer from what I think is uilleann piperitis, which is the compulsion to curl up into a fetal ball while playing, stare at the chanter, and look like someone is stabbing you with ballpoint pens. I have certainly suffered from this affliction. These days I am making a conscious effort to not do that, as it does nothing good for my playing. You don't have to grin stupidly, but at least sit up, keep your shoulders back, and don't look miserable.
I've also wondered why everyone takes everything so seriously, although I am slightly miffed at the concept that the rhythm players are the only ones smiling, insinuating that- correct me if I'm wrong- the only people who look to be having fun are the people who screw up the music. Zaraliss.
Zara, do not jump on the band wagon, surely you can rise above "trendy" misconceptions.
I have complained for years that CCE musicians look as if it is all a penance, but I appreciate that most of one's concentration should be on the music.
In sessions, when I'm enjoying myself, I try to make an effort to show it like bob my head and give an enjoying yourself expression, but once when I was sitting next to a guitarist in a session I was with the music and turned around and looked at him in the way that I do when i'm having a good time and he must have seen a grumpy face because he kinda stopped and asked what key it was again when he was playing the right one in the first place, he must have thought I was looking at him in a bad way. Maybe that's why trad players put on expressionless faces so they're not misinterpreted and distract the session :P Or maybe it's because theyre unable to play and at the same time as they're so into what they're doing.
But at young people sessions i've rarely see any grumpy faces.
Lots of fiddle players peer intently down the length of the fingerboard at their fingers, although I suspect in many cases this isn't so much making sure their fingers are in the right place as a way of concentrating.
A fiddle player should be able to smile if they're holding the instrument in a sufficiently relaxed fashion. On a couple of occasions I've even seen a fiddle player sing while accompanying themself on the fiddle - the two who demonstrated this particular art were Pete Cooper and Gina Griffin - and they certainly weren't grumpy.
If you're teaching a workshop you can't afford to look grumpy. If not actually smiling then an animated lively facial expression is the order of the day on these occasions.
IMHO the smile is only about making an audience feel comfortable. It has nothing to do with the music.
If I am on stage and my wife is in the audience (not often) I have to look happy or else she will berate me afterwards because she feels I must be struggling if I don't look happy - then she feels really uncomfortable.
Lets face it if you are smiling you have to be smiling at someone or it is really inane. If the fiddler player opposite me is playing with his eyes shut and the piper is bent over his chanter, the bodhran is similarily doubled over his goat and the flute player can't smile back anyway - who am I going to smile at?
I never heard classical musicians complain that such and such a soloist didn't smile enough whilst playing some epic concerto.
Finally there is a facial thing in that some people when not smiling look less/more happy than others. This hasn't got anything to do with their mood level or grumpiness. When the smile does come it can light up the room.
Should I smile when playing the harmonica? Might choke on the damn thing. Then I could do a good impersonation of a concertina as someone attempts the Heimlich manoeuvre.
My God- would people have you all looking like Wayne Newton? I only commented today that I'd rather have bamboo shoved under my nails than endure his fake countenance. I'm pretty sure it's the music that makes the difference. Consider what people look like when they're having sex for example- I don't think facial expression equals enjoyment...;0)
Trad players with grumpy faces
Trad players with grumpy faces
I have been asked about this by people I have invited to sessions to have a look and listen and they all say the same thing "why do they all look so grumpy ?" they look like they are sitting at mass I thought these sessions were supposed to be good cráic etc
box 
fiddle 
flute 
bódhran 
banjo 
guitarist
I cant answer it seriously so I just say oh its such an intense hard thing to do you have to concentrate 100% or usually if a person makes a glitch in one of the tunes it throws the others off balance a little and they get the strop over it. But I believe there are deeper reasons for this overlooked part of ITM because heaven forbid if a stranger walked in with his instrument and they all looked up briefly with the irish get back stare he would probably think oh its a little cliqué I wont bother
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by Ripthecalico
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
I sent a bluegrass friend a pic of our local session, and his comment was "wow, everyone looks so unanimated." (I said, "well, yes, it's a PICTURE, not a movie.")
Luckily, even if I don't break out in big smiles, I can still be having a good time. Granted, usualy I *do* -- break out in big smiles, I mean.
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
I often break out in big smiles too, especially when someone "makes a glitch" (often me) or when the bodhran player goes to the bar.
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by Johnny Jay
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
The trouble is a lot of trad players look like they are struggling and fighting the tunes out and in a way they just look simply frustrated but I doubht they would be able to admit this as it will make them feel incompitent, the eye's dont lie
big grin
big puss
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by Ripthecalico
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
so it is when the bódhran player walks in you look up and frown then
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by Ripthecalico
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces, name and shame
Soon it will be time to name some of your favourite candidates for this hall of fame
Joe Cahill on fiddle
Seany Mcdonough on box, Im not saying anything about him as I heard he is box clever with his fists to
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by Ripthecalico
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
Many people ask me how I can play the flute and be laughing or smiling. I just love playing.
There are many times I've been to Mass, and nobody has looked grumpy at all. Especially those celebrated by the recently late Fr. Tom Cass, in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. People would say that they were going to a Gas Cass Mass!
Brianx
Might I add that he was one of the great supporters of Irish Music and Culture on Tyneside.
Bx
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by briantheflute
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
Brian, you can laugh and play the flute at the same time? Dude! ;)
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
Well, most traditional players I know look grumpy as well. Personally it doesn't really bother me if the "audience" at a session thinks so. It's just the way it is - and may be something to do with the neural circuitry used for smiling/communicating being used to play music - and therefore unavailable to put on a smile - I wonder? Any neuroscientists among our members who might be able to confirm, or blow that theory out of the water?
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by On Sabbatical
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
For me, it's about right. I AM a grumpy old git.
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by Rudall the time
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
There are lots of people have got pictures Zina. I just wish I had the know how or technology to put them up.
Thanks,
Brianx
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by briantheflute
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces, name and shame
http://www.socialeurope.com/images/Dublin%202004/Irish%20musicians%20at%20reception.jpg
see what i mean
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by Ripthecalico
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
I think, for most of us, playing music is such an all-consuming process, that we don't have much choice regarding our facial expressions. Do the Yakuts criticize their Shamans for foaming at the mouth during their mushroom-induced trances?
I've seen all manner of fixed expressions on the faces of musicians in full flight, ranging from serene smiles, through vacant or piercing stares, to the grotesquest grimaces. I have seen photos of myself playing. They are generally not pretty, although I would not describe my expression as grumpy - more one of extreme concentration, verging on constipation.
Mac - Joe looks grumpy even when he's not playing. He's only happy when he's miserable.
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
Congratulations, Brian! With me it's more like a freakish-ghastly grin (the like of Batman's Joker).
Can't even think of a "smiley" illustrating it...
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by Barfly
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
MacWife
Tell these people to go and look at the dreadful rictus grin on the faces of people who do ballroom dancing. It is absolutely hideous - looks like they took strychnine.
And clowns - look at clowns - it's only painted on!
And then look at other musicians - the only ones you see with big smiles are the people miming on TV pop shows.
Golfers frown in concentration, and birdwatchers screw up their faces against the sun, and rock climbers grimace with the effort - do these people get loads of punters bitching about them "not looking like they're enjoying it"
ooooh! I nearly went into a rant then.
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
Yeah but clowns are working, birdwatchers watching, rock climbers climbing, ballroom dancers dancing. Musicians play. (or at least they should)
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by ...
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
Remember Michael - you can't play at playing music. I'm sure we all agreed that was right didn't we?
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=play
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by ...
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
though, I ofcourse, disagree with the dictionary in that I think it is possible and even sometimes desireable to "play" without performing.
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by ...
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
And I like that one where is says "play on an accordion", rather than "play an accordion". Like the best thing for one is to get your toy soldiers out and have a battle across the bellows
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by ...
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
or that might mean: an accordion with "play on" function...
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by Barfly
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
I tend to smile if I'm enjoying myself playing - that's why my embouchure is so crap ...
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by Ottery
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
Didn't Shakespeare say, "If music be the food of love play on an accordion"?
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by GaryAMartin
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
Oh I get it. Get your dolls and teddys sat round the thing and have a little tea party with pretend carrot cake ans chocky biscuits
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by ...
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
Michael - in a week where some of the threads here have made me wonder why I bother visiting this site, you have made me laugh out loud.
BTW - I believe the correct spelling is "choccy".
(The dollies and teddies could use a bodhran as a paddling pool.)
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
Some would argue that that's the better use for a bodhran.
I've also wondered why everyone takes everything so seriously, although I am slightly miffed at the concept that the rhythm players are the only ones smiling, insinuating that- correct me if I'm wrong- the only people who look to be having fun are the people who screw up the music.
However, at most of the sessions I go to, you see a lot of people who look to be having fun; some are grinning like madmen; in fact, you have some people (me included) who actually get physically bouncy during some of the livelier tunes, sometimes to the point of resembling epilepsy. So I don't think grouchiness or bad-tempered-ness (if that's not a word, it should be) is universal.
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by Zazzaliss
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
We played a gig at Franham Maltings last week and the guitarist's wife came to see us (the first time). Afterwards she said she had enjoyed the music but you all looked "so serious whilst you were playing ...couldn't you smile more?"
I pointed out it was difficult to smile with a fiddle under your jaw or whilst playing flute or whistles. Harriet, our harpist, smiles constantly whilst playing so she more than makes up for us. I am working on it but it's a rather gratuitous rictus which make me look as if I have piles.
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
It's not just in The Music - for most of my teenage years people kept meithering me to "stop looking so serious".
I'm sorry - but that's just what the front of my head looks like. It's not my fault if shallow people choose to interpret my physical appearance to fit some fiction they choose to believe.
(And after my teenage years? I developed an acid response, which made people stop.)
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
I find I play better if I look more relaxed and like I am having fun. If you breathe now and then and try to fake relaxed, even if you're thinking, "Oh my God, I can't play this tune this fast.... aaaaahhh!!" then you might actually be more relaxed and able to play that tune. A lot of pipers suffer from what I think is uilleann piperitis, which is the compulsion to curl up into a fetal ball while playing, stare at the chanter, and look like someone is stabbing you with ballpoint pens. I have certainly suffered from this affliction. These days I am making a conscious effort to not do that, as it does nothing good for my playing. You don't have to grin stupidly, but at least sit up, keep your shoulders back, and don't look miserable.
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
I've also wondered why everyone takes everything so seriously, although I am slightly miffed at the concept that the rhythm players are the only ones smiling, insinuating that- correct me if I'm wrong- the only people who look to be having fun are the people who screw up the music. Zaraliss.
Zara, do not jump on the band wagon, surely you can rise above "trendy" misconceptions.
I have complained for years that CCE musicians look as if it is all a penance, but I appreciate that most of one's concentration should be on the music.
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
Should have been Zazza. mustn't be concentrating. Zazza does play the bodhran, so was in jest, but no-one should encourage the unbelievers.
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
In sessions, when I'm enjoying myself, I try to make an effort to show it like bob my head and give an enjoying yourself expression, but once when I was sitting next to a guitarist in a session I was with the music and turned around and looked at him in the way that I do when i'm having a good time and he must have seen a grumpy face because he kinda stopped and asked what key it was again when he was playing the right one in the first place, he must have thought I was looking at him in a bad way. Maybe that's why trad players put on expressionless faces so they're not misinterpreted and distract the session :P Or maybe it's because theyre unable to play and
at the same time as they're so into what they're doing.
But at young people sessions i've rarely see any grumpy faces.
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by ecidralla
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
Lots of fiddle players peer intently down the length of the fingerboard at their fingers, although I suspect in many cases this isn't so much making sure their fingers are in the right place as a way of concentrating.
A fiddle player should be able to smile if they're holding the instrument in a sufficiently relaxed fashion. On a couple of occasions I've even seen a fiddle player sing while accompanying themself on the fiddle - the two who demonstrated this particular art were Pete Cooper and Gina Griffin - and they certainly weren't grumpy.
If you're teaching a workshop you can't afford to look grumpy. If not actually smiling then an animated lively facial expression is the order of the day on these occasions.
# Posted on November 25th 2005 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
IMHO the smile is only about making an audience feel comfortable. It has nothing to do with the music.
If I am on stage and my wife is in the audience (not often) I have to look happy or else she will berate me afterwards because she feels I must be struggling if I don't look happy - then she feels really uncomfortable.
Lets face it if you are smiling you have to be smiling at someone or it is really inane. If the fiddler player opposite me is playing with his eyes shut and the piper is bent over his chanter, the bodhran is similarily doubled over his goat and the flute player can't smile back anyway - who am I going to smile at?
I never heard classical musicians complain that such and such a soloist didn't smile enough whilst playing some epic concerto.
Finally there is a facial thing in that some people when not smiling look less/more happy than others. This hasn't got anything to do with their mood level or grumpiness. When the smile does come it can light up the room.
# Posted on November 25th 2005 by Donough
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
ditto. i get that long stare into something elsewhere, but my soul is whirling. I know you all get it. Don't sweat the small stuff!
# Posted on November 25th 2005 by roseb
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
i've been told my ears wiggle when i play. if that doesn't look happy, at least it's offering some visual entertainment!
# Posted on November 25th 2005 by Dont
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
What? You never have a little smile to yourself? come off it
# Posted on November 25th 2005 by ...
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
Should I smile when playing the harmonica? Might choke on the damn thing. Then I could do a good impersonation of a concertina as someone attempts the Heimlich manoeuvre.
# Posted on November 25th 2005 by RichardB
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
After yesterdays session I can tell you:
Bodhran players start to smile...
....
....
when the bongo player leaves......
# Posted on November 25th 2005 by swisspiper
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
Zazza plays bodhran? Is that Zazza Gabor? No wonder I haven't seen her in any movies lately.
# Posted on November 26th 2005 by oldstrings
Re: Trad players with grumpy faces
My God- would people have you all looking like Wayne Newton? I only commented today that I'd rather have bamboo shoved under my nails than endure his fake countenance. I'm pretty sure it's the music that makes the difference. Consider what people look like when they're having sex for example- I don't think facial expression equals enjoyment...;0)
# Posted on November 26th 2005 by mell