I know there has been endless debate already on the various guitar tunings which are used in ITM, the main contenders being DADGAD, dropped D and standard - though posts like this invariably invite responses from devotees of every possible combination you can think of.....
But I would like to hear from other guitar players on the wisdom of using certain tunings for specific situations, i.e. does anyone agree that a variety of tunings are feasible for a musician to use - or should each guitar player stick to a single tuning?
I learned guitar using standard tuning long before I got involved in ITM, so I have tended to use it as a default, occasionally using dropped D if it particularly suits the tune(s). To me alternating between standard and dropped D is easy - I don't like the awkwardness associated with chord shapes in dropped D and feel that dropped D is only really useful for tunes in key of D and some closely related keys(I await multiple responses refuting this!!).
I LOVE the SOUND of DADGAD, fully appreciate its advantages for accompaniment of ITM, but still feel it is restrictive for the majority of guitarists who will never climb to that "higher plane" inhabited by the chosen few who can make DADGAD talk, never use a capo and know every inversion of every chord voicing etc. etc. There are a few of these guys in existence, they tend to play exclusively in DADGAD and they spend A LOT of time practising. It seems to me that they also tend to be highly individual in their style, and wouldn't play "mainstream" music in DADGAD. (You never hear the DADGAD vs. standard debate much outside folk/ITM circles).
So after a lot of time debating pros and cons, I have decided that in my case, standard tuning suits my style (I've developed a number of compensating techniques to make standard sound as "modal" as possible) and a change to exclusive DADGAD at this stage would not be beneficial. As I mentioned, to me, dropped D is easy to incorporate into a "standard" approach.
Switching between standard and DADGAD in mid-session or gig is not for the faint-hearted, for anyone who appreciates the value of accurate tuning. On occasions I have decided to switch to DADGAD in the middle of an informal session, only to find that the other musicians immediately launch into a set of A tunes which I accompany well in - STANDARD!!!
But I have been experimenting at some gigs and sessions by bringing along 2 guitars, one standard and one DADGAD, and using either depending on the specific tunes being played. It's nice to vary the sound a bit, but the disadvantages are obvious. Which brings me to my "pipedream" - would it be feasible/easy/sensible to acquire a DOUBLE NECKED guitar which could be tuned to both standard AND DADGAD - very ostentatious I know but if I won the Lotto I'd probably ask Joe Foley to make me one.....
Would like to hear views of others on the wisdom, feasibility or otherwise of "mixing" guitar tunings.
I think I might have mentioned this before, can't remember, but it sounds like you want what Jimmy Page has got: A self tuning guitar.
Each string has a dedicated microphone and digital tuner attached to servo motor driven fine tuners in the bridge. It's all wired up to a tiny microprocessor which is programable. He simply hits the DADGAD button and yeeouwinging, sorted.
i use CGCGCD, dropped D and standard, and after some years of working at it (simply using it at all times), i find the first mentioned to work across the board for me, even with electric rock guitar
i'm reliably informed (on this board) that the tunning is Open C sus 2
. . . and don't forget that 'roller' capo for really effective and instant transposistions in this mode, and or DADGAD for that matter
Some Irish tunes sound better in DAdGad others don't as you dont have the range of notes.
Drop D is also a great tuning. As you say it can be a nightmare to retune in a session.
It really depends upon what kind of sound and style you want to develop, if you love DADGAD and you mostly play trad then stick to that 90% of the time and really get to know it well.
It also depends upon whether you play tunes/songs or accompaniment. I think good arguements can be made of each tuning but I think at the end of the day its what you like and how fessible it is in each situation(DADGAD can sound amazing in a session , but playing in DADGAD at a party where people want you to play sing-along songs...get back to standard fast!!)
Im learning to flat pick tunes using GDGDAD tuning and accompany using open G tuning.
So I take the different instruments to different sessions.
I feel thats a good way to learn.
In my opinion, tuning is not the most important aspect when playing ITM on guitar(or bouzouki).I think is more important the rythm with the right hand (rythmic patterns for jigs,reels,etc).A player with a good right hand (tuning DADGAD,DADGBE,...)adds to the session a different colour.
I took a guitar workshop from Chris Newman once, and one of the first things he said (in that loovely Yorkshire accent): "The trooble with guitah players is, they get all hoong oop on things like 'Oh, should ah play this in DADGAD or stahndard' or 'Should ah play a D-minor-7 here or an A-sustained-9th or summat like that.' But all the flute player or the fiddler wants to hear is the rhythm -- tucka-tuh-tucka-tuh-tucka or TUHka-tuhka TUHka-tukah TUHka-tuhka."
Yup, I got the same advice from John Doyle. And Martin Carthy says standard is better for session backup. Just keep the tunes rolling and don't walk all over the melody.
Yes, in a session situation, things should just be kept straight forward. It's the "flute player or fiddler" etc who is important here and he/she will play just as well if things are kept simple and even(I don't want to open up any wounds here) if there's no accompaniment at all.
Of course, interesting and clever chords, backing arrangements can be enjoyable to hear but, as we've discussed here before, a session isn't necessarily for an audience.
So, perhaps we should have different criteria for session and performance scenarios?
I almost agree with Carthy, who I idolize, but I think for what I do dropped D is the best of both worlds for backing. I find it more versatile for backing. Tunes I do DADGAD, if I am forced to sing at a gig (NOT a great singer, but who is really listening in a noisy bar?) I play the melody along as a tune in most cases, so also use DADGAD.
I really don't like DADGAD for backing as well because at least as far as I have delved into it, it sounds all the same just higher or lower. Like I said I haven't fully gotten into it and know there are certainly people who make it sound different in every key I am sure.
In dropped D there are certain strings you don't want to hit at times, like the high E if you are playing a G etc. or the low D if playing a standard A chord, but that sort of stuff happens in standard tuning too, it's just getting used to a new routine. So many times eiether the key is D or you hit a lot of Ds and it sounds so rich with that dropped D.
I made up a tuning by accident, at least I think I did. I was trying to get into open G and goofed and wondered why the darn tune wasn't working, but ended up noodling around and made up a new one. It is DADGBD. It is actually a nice tuning, sounds a bit more apt for American sounding tunes I think. Anyway I just recorded the tune and the tuning warrants more looking into.
It was a happy accident! I have not attempted backing in it, and likely will not plan on it. I have been playing this way for seemingly forever and can back in Dropped D without barely even thinking about it, it's so programmed in my brain that the thought of changing is just too much. I'd rather put my efforts into learning more fingerstyle tunes in open tunings.
Gee....there are sooooo many possibilities on this instrument, it's pretty amazing when you think about it. So...to answer, I think do whatever you feel comfortable with if it suits the music and there are plenty of people at sessions who will tell you pretty bluntly if they don't think it does, or that they like something else better.
what's in the pot's in the pot, and what comes out comes out so in theory that's fine but what you get is what's ''played out'' at the time
my humble thoughts for backing sessioneers may be that they do a bit of homework (not a mad amount), then out there just play, listen and learn, improve and adjust, laugh and cry, dream and enjoy, relax and be moved by ''the force'' of this music and it's social interplay
Well, good luck to all of you with your fancy tunings. When it comes to playing in sessions, I'm maybe not very adventurous with regards to tunings - in fact some might say, boring. I just stick with standard and drop D, but also (thanks to tips from people on this site), use a quickdraw capo. I find that pretty well suits for most things sessionwise, apart from perhaps picking. So if I'm desperate to play a tune, I pick up the fiddle (not too frequently, though, much to the relief of any real musicians within earshot).
Pick one tuning and learn it-doesnt really matter if its standard,dropped d or dadgad tho personally I think having the lowest string tuned to D to be more useful than E.
You dont need to know every inversion- as long as you can build (or learn)triads and quatrads(7ths ,9ths etc) from the notes of the scale/key. Learn major scale and nat minor in the popular keys and then just concentrate on the right hand-keep it as simple as possible and try to make it groovy.
firstly - good to hear some talk about the right hand in a guitar thread. Let's be honest. You can choke the strings dead in any tuning imaginable and still make it sound great behind a good fiddler if you have a mean right hand.
That said - I play about half the time in DADGAD and half standard. The division is pretty simple - DADGAD for tunes and standard for songs. I am happy to "slog it out" in either for the opposite prefernce because as has been pointed out retuning in a session can be a "trial" But if a fiddler wants me to back em it DADGAD - if a singer calls - its standard and probably fingerstyle.
Don't like using a capo on my guitar so Dropped D works well in almost any key and has the advantage of a low D if the tune is in D.
I use lots of other tunings but only for fingerstyle pieces.
Iris, your tuning is Double Dropped D and there are more than a few notables using that. Donogh Hennessy (ex-Lunasa) and Jim Murray (with Sharon Shannon etc).
Oh...that one I thought I made up? Oh well!! It's interesting. I have so many tunes lined up to learn in DADGAD right now, but will get back to that one later and see where else it goes.
I likely will stick to the dropped D for backing though, it's been in my head so long that I don't have to think about where a note is, I hear it and my left hand just goes. I think it gets encoded in your brain after doing it a long time, so you can just hear the key or note. The thought of relearning all that for another tuning.....hmmm....don't think so, but for playing fingerstyle tunes, sure will give it a try again.
Well, I must say that Lysaghtm spoke for me for the post part.
I have been playing for about 45 years, and I know that there are about 40 esoteric guitar tuning "out there".
I use standard tuning.
Using any other tuning for me, is like trying to figure out a Rubik's Cube.
Anyway, I certainly know that Alternate Tunings are something we can do on the guitar, but I'm not into it. My goodness... I am not even a Master of standard tuning. How can we master so many different tunings?
I also know that other guitarists love some alternate tunings -- that's fine, no really, that's OK.
But the thing is, in my mind, just for me, I have to say:
1. Are you not proud of the work you do in Standard Tuning?
2. Are trying to make the guitar into some other instrument?
3. What about the string tensions on your guitar? You are aware of course, that all that tuning up and tuning down is NOT good for your guitar unless you have a techincal knowledge of what guages to buy so you can do you tuning tweeks without hurting your soundboard.
4. Does a violin player do alternate tuning? Does a mandolin do alternate tunings? Do you see a piano doing alternate tuning? Does a bass do alternate tuning? Does a oboe or a viola, or a trombone do alternate tuning?
5. What about a tenor guitar?
Anyway, alternate tunings are not for me.
One other thing -- I had the absolute pleasure to talk with Pat Egan of "Chulrua" during an intimate concert recently. Pat plays standard tuning, but you'd never know it. Pat, as lysaghtm said above, has worked very hard to encorporate the modal tonality into standard tuning.
He is so very good at providing exquisite ITM backup.
Pat Egan is proof to me that I do not "need" alternate tunings.
Goody goody.
Best Regards,
Greg
I'm pushing 60 years old, but I want to be like Pat Egan when I grow up!!
Alternate tunings are not needed. What matters most is the end result. Whatever makes it easy for you and sounds good to you works.
I have gotten so used to Dropped D for this music that I am at home in it. I am all over the fingerboard, high and low. it's just that after so many years, in the tuning you have become used to, your ear and fingers just get to know where a particular sound lives on the fingerboard.
For the fingerstyle my fingers and brain go onto auto-switch in DADGAD. It becomes ingrained or programmed in one's brain if you do anything enough times, IMHO.
I have BTW heard quite a few fiddles in open tunings, I think in A, though not sure. James Kelly does this often I hear.
I wonder about the occasional seven string guitars that are made, what kind of tuning there. Could come in handy to have it in standard tuning, one through six, and the 7th, a lower one in D. As I fingerpicker I could choose which string, but don't know how a flatpicker/strummer would work with that.
Hmmm....maybe a seven stringer for my next luthier project......oh God save me, I am possessed by guitars! LOL!
Hi - Mark Lysaght here, I started all this last Thursday and thanks to everyone who has posted so far. Some further thoughts on what has been added:
1. Fully agree on the right hand technique, "it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing"! The people who think that ITM is simple to back invariably have not considered the importance of rhythm.
2. I always revert to standard tuning as a default - it's just that I am sometimes bored with the range of options offered by any tuning and it's refreshing to use an alternative. As I mentioned I have adapted standard to get a modal sound, and I'm always chuffed when someone asks me what tuning I'm using. Modality is fully achievable in standard, it just sounds different.
3. I like the sound of the GDGDAD tuning, would just like to confirm which side we are coming from here? High to low or low to high - the reason I ask is that if it was low to high, the top 4 strings would be in bouzouki tuning! That would be of interest to me as I also play bouzouki (but as someone pointed out, only guitar players seem to change tunings - bouzouki players typically belong to one of 2 main "schoools" and stick to their chosen tuning religiously.
4. I still admire a good DADGAD player who has really got his/her head around the tuning. Donal Siggins who plays with Emer Mayock seems to have his act together based on a recent gig I saw them at.
5. Heard mention of Pat Egan, who I knew in Dublin and Westport about 20 years ago - where is Pat now and he deserves all the compliments he is getting. Whoever knows him - give him my regards!
Mark,
Actually, I have lately been working to reduce the "swing" in my right hand technique. I have a tendency to emphasize the backbeat much more heavily than I should in this type of music. Working toward a smoother, steadier rhythm, rather than the more heavily percussive style I gravitated to in my younger days. As an alternative, how about "it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that lift!" Doesn't rhyme quite as well, though.....
I play standard tuning probably 80% of the time, dropped-D maybe 15% and DADGAD 5% or less. Dropped-D is very useful for backing or for playing fingerstyle tunes in D, because the standard D string is just not low enough for a decent bass part, most of the time.
I can only think of two tunes and maybe three songs I’ve played in DADGAD. Mainly I use it for noodling. But only in the privacy of my own home! A lot (maybe most) of the cool sounds from DADGAD are available in standard or dropped-D. They just might take three fingers instead of two.
Like Mark, I admire the DADGAD players who learn the tuning well enough to think in it and like Iris, I idolize Martin Carthy. But to really get into another tuning I would have to dedicate an instrument to it, partly to avoid retuning and partly to get the string gauges right. I’m already getting ready to dedicate one to flatpicking and I hate hauling around a trailer load of instruments.
I think a lot of DADGAD advocates promote the tuning precisely because a lot of the "cool sounds" are made on OPEN strings. Fretting any string limits the amount of sympathetic overtones and resonance available (so I'm told), which is why "open" tuning sounds richer for some shapes (though as we know it can implode if you try to play more complex chords). Try Bbm7 on DADGAD without a capo.....
Still, heavyweights such as Pierre Bensusan reckon you can play anything on DADGAD and who am I to argue?
My pipe dream of a double necked acoustic with DADGAD and standard (or dropped D) available might allow the strings on the neck that is NOT being played to vibrate sympathetically. I wonder how this would sound?
Maybe if I place a DADGAD tuned guitar close to a standard tuned one I would get some idea.......to the labs, quick!!!!!
I’ve had the pleasure of sitting three feet in front of Pierre, watching as he played (unamplified, btw), and one thing I noticed was that his fingers do an awful lot of stretching, especially when he’s playing jazzy extended chords that would have been fairly simple in standard tuning. Of course, he has the virtuosity to pul this off and make it look easy. He gets the bests of both worlds.
This is the (extreme) other side of the point that a lot of open tuning sound is available in standard tuning – with a little extra stretching. PB can do most anything in DADGAD – with a *lot* of stretching.
“I think a lot of DADGAD advocates promote the tuning precisely because a lot of the "cool sounds" are made on OPEN strings. Fretting any string limits the amount of sympathetic overtones and resonance available…”
Good point, Mark. Still, there’s a fair amount of open string coolness in standard. In the keys of of A and Am you can make two- and three-finger chords on the 2nd, 3rd and 4th strings and move them around while letting some or all of the others ring open. For E or Em, try fingerings on the 3rd, 4th and 5th strings and maybe combine them with some of the A/Am examples. Drp-D has similar possibilities.
In DADGAD and other open tunings, these things are a little easier because virtually any open string can be used, whereas, with standard, there might be an open string that honks in your current key. So sometimes you need to either finger or mute one more string than in DADGAD.
I hope I don’t sound like I’m arguing against open tunings. I actually think DADGAD was one of the coolest guitar innovations of the past several decades. For me, in my self-indulgent noodling, the best part of DADGAD is that it makes the “harp effect” so much easier.
Guitar Tunings
Guitar Tunings
I know there has been endless debate already on the various guitar tunings which are used in ITM, the main contenders being DADGAD, dropped D and standard - though posts like this invariably invite responses from devotees of every possible combination you can think of.....
But I would like to hear from other guitar players on the wisdom of using certain tunings for specific situations, i.e. does anyone agree that a variety of tunings are feasible for a musician to use - or should each guitar player stick to a single tuning?
I learned guitar using standard tuning long before I got involved in ITM, so I have tended to use it as a default, occasionally using dropped D if it particularly suits the tune(s). To me alternating between standard and dropped D is easy - I don't like the awkwardness associated with chord shapes in dropped D and feel that dropped D is only really useful for tunes in key of D and some closely related keys(I await multiple responses refuting this!!).
I LOVE the SOUND of DADGAD, fully appreciate its advantages for accompaniment of ITM, but still feel it is restrictive for the majority of guitarists who will never climb to that "higher plane" inhabited by the chosen few who can make DADGAD talk, never use a capo and know every inversion of every chord voicing etc. etc. There are a few of these guys in existence, they tend to play exclusively in DADGAD and they spend A LOT of time practising. It seems to me that they also tend to be highly individual in their style, and wouldn't play "mainstream" music in DADGAD. (You never hear the DADGAD vs. standard debate much outside folk/ITM circles).
So after a lot of time debating pros and cons, I have decided that in my case, standard tuning suits my style (I've developed a number of compensating techniques to make standard sound as "modal" as possible) and a change to exclusive DADGAD at this stage would not be beneficial. As I mentioned, to me, dropped D is easy to incorporate into a "standard" approach.
Switching between standard and DADGAD in mid-session or gig is not for the faint-hearted, for anyone who appreciates the value of accurate tuning. On occasions I have decided to switch to DADGAD in the middle of an informal session, only to find that the other musicians immediately launch into a set of A tunes which I accompany well in - STANDARD!!!
But I have been experimenting at some gigs and sessions by bringing along 2 guitars, one standard and one DADGAD, and using either depending on the specific tunes being played. It's nice to vary the sound a bit, but the disadvantages are obvious. Which brings me to my "pipedream" - would it be feasible/easy/sensible to acquire a DOUBLE NECKED guitar which could be tuned to both standard AND DADGAD - very ostentatious I know but if I won the Lotto I'd probably ask Joe Foley to make me one.....
Would like to hear views of others on the wisdom, feasibility or otherwise of "mixing" guitar tunings.
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by lysaghtm
Re: Guitar Tunings
I think I might have mentioned this before, can't remember, but it sounds like you want what Jimmy Page has got: A self tuning guitar.
Each string has a dedicated microphone and digital tuner attached to servo motor driven fine tuners in the bridge. It's all wired up to a tiny microprocessor which is programable. He simply hits the DADGAD button and yeeouwinging, sorted.
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Guitar Tunings
i use CGCGCD, dropped D and standard, and after some years of working at it (simply using it at all times), i find the first mentioned to work across the board for me, even with electric rock guitar
i'm reliably informed (on this board) that the tunning is Open C sus 2
. . . and don't forget that 'roller' capo for really effective and instant transposistions in this mode, and or DADGAD for that matter
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by lisaniska
Re: Guitar Tunings
Some Irish tunes sound better in DAdGad others don't as you dont have the range of notes.
Drop D is also a great tuning. As you say it can be a nightmare to retune in a session.
It really depends upon what kind of sound and style you want to develop, if you love DADGAD and you mostly play trad then stick to that 90% of the time and really get to know it well.
It also depends upon whether you play tunes/songs or accompaniment. I think good arguements can be made of each tuning but I think at the end of the day its what you like and how fessible it is in each situation(DADGAD can sound amazing in a session , but playing in DADGAD at a party where people want you to play sing-along songs...get back to standard fast!!)
Enjoy
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by Kess
Re: Guitar Tunings
Im learning to flat pick tunes using GDGDAD tuning and accompany using open G tuning.
So I take the different instruments to different sessions.
I feel thats a good way to learn.
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Guitar Tunings
In my opinion, tuning is not the most important aspect when playing ITM on guitar(or bouzouki).I think is more important the rythm with the right hand (rythmic patterns for jigs,reels,etc).A player with a good right hand (tuning DADGAD,DADGBE,...)adds to the session a different colour.
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by Rafix
Re: Guitar Tunings
Re Rafix's post:
I took a guitar workshop from Chris Newman once, and one of the first things he said (in that loovely Yorkshire accent): "The trooble with guitah players is, they get all hoong oop on things like 'Oh, should ah play this in DADGAD or stahndard' or 'Should ah play a D-minor-7 here or an A-sustained-9th or summat like that.' But all the flute player or the fiddler wants to hear is the rhythm -- tucka-tuh-tucka-tuh-tucka or TUHka-tuhka TUHka-tukah TUHka-tuhka."
I try to keep that in mind.
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by sts
Re: Guitar Tunings
Yup, I got the same advice from John Doyle. And Martin Carthy says standard is better for session backup. Just keep the tunes rolling and don't walk all over the melody.
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by baglady
Re: Guitar Tunings
Yes, in a session situation, things should just be kept straight forward. It's the "flute player or fiddler" etc who is important here and he/she will play just as well if things are kept simple and even(I don't want to open up any wounds here) if there's no accompaniment at all.
Of course, interesting and clever chords, backing arrangements can be enjoyable to hear but, as we've discussed here before, a session isn't necessarily for an audience.
So, perhaps we should have different criteria for session and performance scenarios?
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by Back for a while
Re: Guitar Tunings
I used to pick tunes in DADGAD & then tried DADF#AD (open D). Now I like the Open D better. That Open C sounds interesting.
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by Innocent Bystander
Re: Guitar Tunings
I almost agree with Carthy, who I idolize, but I think for what I do dropped D is the best of both worlds for backing. I find it more versatile for backing. Tunes I do DADGAD, if I am forced to sing at a gig (NOT a great singer, but who is really listening in a noisy bar?) I play the melody along as a tune in most cases, so also use DADGAD.
I really don't like DADGAD for backing as well because at least as far as I have delved into it, it sounds all the same just higher or lower. Like I said I haven't fully gotten into it and know there are certainly people who make it sound different in every key I am sure.
In dropped D there are certain strings you don't want to hit at times, like the high E if you are playing a G etc. or the low D if playing a standard A chord, but that sort of stuff happens in standard tuning too, it's just getting used to a new routine. So many times eiether the key is D or you hit a lot of Ds and it sounds so rich with that dropped D.
I made up a tuning by accident, at least I think I did. I was trying to get into open G and goofed and wondered why the darn tune wasn't working, but ended up noodling around and made up a new one. It is DADGBD. It is actually a nice tuning, sounds a bit more apt for American sounding tunes I think. Anyway I just recorded the tune and the tuning warrants more looking into.
It was a happy accident! I have not attempted backing in it, and likely will not plan on it. I have been playing this way for seemingly forever and can back in Dropped D without barely even thinking about it, it's so programmed in my brain that the thought of changing is just too much. I'd rather put my efforts into learning more fingerstyle tunes in open tunings.
Gee....there are sooooo many possibilities on this instrument, it's pretty amazing when you think about it. So...to answer, I think do whatever you feel comfortable with if it suits the music and there are plenty of people at sessions who will tell you pretty bluntly if they don't think it does, or that they like something else better.
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by irisnevins
Re: Guitar Tunings
what's in the pot's in the pot, and what comes out comes out so in theory that's fine but what you get is what's ''played out'' at the time
my humble thoughts for backing sessioneers may be that they do a bit of homework (not a mad amount), then out there just play, listen and learn, improve and adjust, laugh and cry, dream and enjoy, relax and be moved by ''the force'' of this music and it's social interplay
. . . well that's what i did
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by lisaniska
Re: Guitar Tunings
Well, good luck to all of you with your fancy tunings. When it comes to playing in sessions, I'm maybe not very adventurous with regards to tunings - in fact some might say, boring. I just stick with standard and drop D, but also (thanks to tips from people on this site), use a quickdraw capo. I find that pretty well suits for most things sessionwise, apart from perhaps picking. So if I'm desperate to play a tune, I pick up the fiddle (not too frequently, though, much to the relief of any real musicians within earshot).
# Posted on November 24th 2005 by Ron P
Re: Guitar Tunings
Pick one tuning and learn it-doesnt really matter if its standard,dropped d or dadgad tho personally I think having the lowest string tuned to D to be more useful than E.
You dont need to know every inversion- as long as you can build (or learn)triads and quatrads(7ths ,9ths etc) from the notes of the scale/key. Learn major scale and nat minor in the popular keys and then just concentrate on the right hand-keep it as simple as possible and try to make it groovy.
# Posted on November 25th 2005 by JimR
Re: Guitar Tunings
firstly - good to hear some talk about the right hand in a guitar thread. Let's be honest. You can choke the strings dead in any tuning imaginable and still make it sound great behind a good fiddler if you have a mean right hand.
That said - I play about half the time in DADGAD and half standard. The division is pretty simple - DADGAD for tunes and standard for songs. I am happy to "slog it out" in either for the opposite prefernce because as has been pointed out retuning in a session can be a "trial" But if a fiddler wants me to back em it DADGAD - if a singer calls - its standard and probably fingerstyle.
# Posted on November 25th 2005 by geoffmc
Re: Guitar Tunings
Don't like using a capo on my guitar so Dropped D works well in almost any key and has the advantage of a low D if the tune is in D.
I use lots of other tunings but only for fingerstyle pieces.
Iris, your tuning is Double Dropped D and there are more than a few notables using that. Donogh Hennessy (ex-Lunasa) and Jim Murray (with Sharon Shannon etc).
# Posted on November 25th 2005 by Donough
Re: Guitar Tunings
Oh...that one I thought I made up? Oh well!! It's interesting. I have so many tunes lined up to learn in DADGAD right now, but will get back to that one later and see where else it goes.
I likely will stick to the dropped D for backing though, it's been in my head so long that I don't have to think about where a note is, I hear it and my left hand just goes. I think it gets encoded in your brain after doing it a long time, so you can just hear the key or note. The thought of relearning all that for another tuning.....hmmm....don't think so, but for playing fingerstyle tunes, sure will give it a try again.
# Posted on November 25th 2005 by irisnevins
Re: Guitar Tunings
Hello fellow guitarist,
Well, I must say that Lysaghtm spoke for me for the post part.
I have been playing for about 45 years, and I know that there are about 40 esoteric guitar tuning "out there".
I use standard tuning.
Using any other tuning for me, is like trying to figure out a Rubik's Cube.
Anyway, I certainly know that Alternate Tunings are something we can do on the guitar, but I'm not into it. My goodness... I am not even a Master of standard tuning. How can we master so many different tunings?
I also know that other guitarists love some alternate tunings -- that's fine, no really, that's OK.
But the thing is, in my mind, just for me, I have to say:
1. Are you not proud of the work you do in Standard Tuning?
2. Are trying to make the guitar into some other instrument?
3. What about the string tensions on your guitar? You are aware of course, that all that tuning up and tuning down is NOT good for your guitar unless you have a techincal knowledge of what guages to buy so you can do you tuning tweeks without hurting your soundboard.
4. Does a violin player do alternate tuning? Does a mandolin do alternate tunings? Do you see a piano doing alternate tuning? Does a bass do alternate tuning? Does a oboe or a viola, or a trombone do alternate tuning?
5. What about a tenor guitar?
Anyway, alternate tunings are not for me.
One other thing -- I had the absolute pleasure to talk with Pat Egan of "Chulrua" during an intimate concert recently. Pat plays standard tuning, but you'd never know it. Pat, as lysaghtm said above, has worked very hard to encorporate the modal tonality into standard tuning.
He is so very good at providing exquisite ITM backup.
Pat Egan is proof to me that I do not "need" alternate tunings.
Goody goody.
Best Regards,
Greg
I'm pushing 60 years old, but I want to be like Pat Egan when I grow up!!
# Posted on November 27th 2005 by Greg
Re: Guitar Tunings
Alternate tunings are not needed. What matters most is the end result. Whatever makes it easy for you and sounds good to you works.
I have gotten so used to Dropped D for this music that I am at home in it. I am all over the fingerboard, high and low. it's just that after so many years, in the tuning you have become used to, your ear and fingers just get to know where a particular sound lives on the fingerboard.
For the fingerstyle my fingers and brain go onto auto-switch in DADGAD. It becomes ingrained or programmed in one's brain if you do anything enough times, IMHO.
I have BTW heard quite a few fiddles in open tunings, I think in A, though not sure. James Kelly does this often I hear.
I wonder about the occasional seven string guitars that are made, what kind of tuning there. Could come in handy to have it in standard tuning, one through six, and the 7th, a lower one in D. As I fingerpicker I could choose which string, but don't know how a flatpicker/strummer would work with that.
Hmmm....maybe a seven stringer for my next luthier project......oh God save me, I am possessed by guitars! LOL!
# Posted on November 28th 2005 by irisnevins
Re: Guitar Tunings
Hi - Mark Lysaght here, I started all this last Thursday and thanks to everyone who has posted so far. Some further thoughts on what has been added:
1. Fully agree on the right hand technique, "it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing"! The people who think that ITM is simple to back invariably have not considered the importance of rhythm.
2. I always revert to standard tuning as a default - it's just that I am sometimes bored with the range of options offered by any tuning and it's refreshing to use an alternative. As I mentioned I have adapted standard to get a modal sound, and I'm always chuffed when someone asks me what tuning I'm using. Modality is fully achievable in standard, it just sounds different.
3. I like the sound of the GDGDAD tuning, would just like to confirm which side we are coming from here? High to low or low to high - the reason I ask is that if it was low to high, the top 4 strings would be in bouzouki tuning! That would be of interest to me as I also play bouzouki (but as someone pointed out, only guitar players seem to change tunings - bouzouki players typically belong to one of 2 main "schoools" and stick to their chosen tuning religiously.
4. I still admire a good DADGAD player who has really got his/her head around the tuning. Donal Siggins who plays with Emer Mayock seems to have his act together based on a recent gig I saw them at.
5. Heard mention of Pat Egan, who I knew in Dublin and Westport about 20 years ago - where is Pat now and he deserves all the compliments he is getting. Whoever knows him - give him my regards!
# Posted on November 28th 2005 by lysaghtm
Re: Guitar Tunings
Mark,
Actually, I have lately been working to reduce the "swing" in my right hand technique. I have a tendency to emphasize the backbeat much more heavily than I should in this type of music. Working toward a smoother, steadier rhythm, rather than the more heavily percussive style I gravitated to in my younger days. As an alternative, how about "it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that lift!" Doesn't rhyme quite as well, though.....
# Posted on November 28th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Guitar Tunings
You don't have the gift if it ain't got that lift?
# Posted on November 28th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Guitar Tunings
I play standard tuning probably 80% of the time, dropped-D maybe 15% and DADGAD 5% or less. Dropped-D is very useful for backing or for playing fingerstyle tunes in D, because the standard D string is just not low enough for a decent bass part, most of the time.
I can only think of two tunes and maybe three songs I’ve played in DADGAD. Mainly I use it for noodling. But only in the privacy of my own home! A lot (maybe most) of the cool sounds from DADGAD are available in standard or dropped-D. They just might take three fingers instead of two.
Like Mark, I admire the DADGAD players who learn the tuning well enough to think in it and like Iris, I idolize Martin Carthy. But to really get into another tuning I would have to dedicate an instrument to it, partly to avoid retuning and partly to get the string gauges right. I’m already getting ready to dedicate one to flatpicking and I hate hauling around a trailer load of instruments.
# Posted on November 28th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Guitar Tunings
I think a lot of DADGAD advocates promote the tuning precisely because a lot of the "cool sounds" are made on OPEN strings. Fretting any string limits the amount of sympathetic overtones and resonance available (so I'm told), which is why "open" tuning sounds richer for some shapes (though as we know it can implode if you try to play more complex chords). Try Bbm7 on DADGAD without a capo.....
Still, heavyweights such as Pierre Bensusan reckon you can play anything on DADGAD and who am I to argue?
My pipe dream of a double necked acoustic with DADGAD and standard (or dropped D) available might allow the strings on the neck that is NOT being played to vibrate sympathetically. I wonder how this would sound?
Maybe if I place a DADGAD tuned guitar close to a standard tuned one I would get some idea.......to the labs, quick!!!!!
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by lysaghtm
Re: Guitar Tunings
I’ve had the pleasure of sitting three feet in front of Pierre, watching as he played (unamplified, btw), and one thing I noticed was that his fingers do an awful lot of stretching, especially when he’s playing jazzy extended chords that would have been fairly simple in standard tuning. Of course, he has the virtuosity to pul this off and make it look easy. He gets the bests of both worlds.
This is the (extreme) other side of the point that a lot of open tuning sound is available in standard tuning – with a little extra stretching. PB can do most anything in DADGAD – with a *lot* of stretching.
“I think a lot of DADGAD advocates promote the tuning precisely because a lot of the "cool sounds" are made on OPEN strings. Fretting any string limits the amount of sympathetic overtones and resonance available…”
Good point, Mark. Still, there’s a fair amount of open string coolness in standard. In the keys of of A and Am you can make two- and three-finger chords on the 2nd, 3rd and 4th strings and move them around while letting some or all of the others ring open. For E or Em, try fingerings on the 3rd, 4th and 5th strings and maybe combine them with some of the A/Am examples. Drp-D has similar possibilities.
In DADGAD and other open tunings, these things are a little easier because virtually any open string can be used, whereas, with standard, there might be an open string that honks in your current key. So sometimes you need to either finger or mute one more string than in DADGAD.
I hope I don’t sound like I’m arguing against open tunings. I actually think DADGAD was one of the coolest guitar innovations of the past several decades. For me, in my self-indulgent noodling, the best part of DADGAD is that it makes the “harp effect” so much easier.
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Guitar Tunings
"Bests", of course, being the plural of "best".
# Posted on November 30th 2005 by Bob himself