I THINK I'm looking for a 17 fret tenor banjo with resonator to give me lots of volume and easy transition from mandolin, for dances and busking.
Certain camps are trying to persuade me that a 19 fret with/without resonator will be preferable.
I have given some thought to the Deering Goodtime Special/Pickers Plus, and have just heard about the GoldTone Irish Tenor (about the same price). Has anyone played either/both?
At the price, some experts are claiming I would be better of with a vintage banjo. I don't want to get into high maintenance or alteration issues.
I don't think there is much in it although most professionals play 19 fret instruments so I guess there is a lesson in there. For me 17 frets are just as good as 19 frets and can be easier to get up to speed on due to shorter scale, although slightly harder to keep in tune. I have two gold tones, one with a resonator and one without, they are well put together and good value. Set up properly they are LOUD, but with a good tone.
I have never played a deering.
Vintage instruments have the advantage of generally holding their value, whereas a new Deering or Goldtone will depreciate heavily as soon as you take it out of the case. In terms of durability a quality vintage instrument that has been moderately well looked after should give you no problems in that regard. As I have said before, and am not afraid to say again ) I think Vegas represent great value for money and a little wonder, tubaphone or whyte laydie will make a great sound, hold its value and be a pleasure to play (if well set up).
I picked up an anonymous vintage 17 fret tenor about a month ago. It's likely made by slingerland based upon mugwumps website (the peghead is definitely slingerland). When I bought it, I compared it two two other vintage tenor banjos (Kay and Claraphone) and the gold tones the store had in stock, and the one I found had a much better sound and has a rim about twice as thick as any other tenor I've seen (nice birds-eye maple). It's also open back.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you can find a well cared for vintage banjo, they can be a steal...I paid $125 USD for mine.
Resonators will be louder, but well set-up and open back can be sufficiently loud, too.
I have to agree that a well setup vintage banjo will provide no more problems than a newer one and that the Vega Model N or Little Wonder are great buys in the 17 fret iteration. 17 fret necks have less of a tendency to warp and if you are lucky you can get a great banjo (compared to anything) if you happen across one that was built by the same guys that built the #9s. According to Vinnie Mondello (a very well known tenor expert , google him) this happened quite a bit because they only made a limited number of the expensive models and the less expensive ones made the real money so everyone had to pitch in.
I like the Gold Tone - you have to get a new bridge, tailpiece and tuners to make it a worthwhile instrument, and I was impressed with the Goodtime even though it looks like a high school shop project (it works, and that is what counts.) but I still prefer the older banjos. The vintage banjos cost about the same or less and have much more mojo and to my ear better sound.
I got a deal I couldn't pass up on a new GoldTone Irish Tenor - the more expensive open back one. I paid less than half the list price - how could I not take it? However, I play mostly mandolin and this is my introduction into banjos so I have nothing to compare it with. Can you tell me what I could expect from a new bridge, tailpiece and tuners and which ones would be good replacement ones?
Mike (and others):
Thanks for the input. The Gold Tone IT250 (not Cripple Creek) I was referring to is a new one which I have seen no information on; not even from Gold Tone. It sells for about $900.00 U.S.
Do you think this model would also need upgrading?
Ken, I have a Gold Tone IT 250. I paid less than $500 USD new for it (no resonator, but hardshell case included). It's a good banjo--very comfortable to play, decent tone. Mine came with the fiberskyn head, which gives a richer tone than the standard issue mylar heads. I'm very happy with it. I tweaked the set up a bit--tightened the head, lowered the bridge a skoosh, and dialed in the tailpiece. The neck is really nice--excellent fret job, great intonation (well, as good as it gets for a short-scale banjo), and nice feel. The action was spot on right out of the case.
All that said, if I were going to spend $800 or more, I'd look for a vintage banjo.
If the scale length is important to you, bear in mind that not all 17-fret necks are the same length.
Will - that's the one that I have too. The neck is outstanding, in my opinion. I am just curious about Mike's comments as for upgrades. The tuners are somewhat "touchy". Tiny movements make larger pitch changes - larger than what I'm used on my mandolin anyway. I don't have a good frame of reference to say if that's normal or if an upgrade would help. Other than that, my experience is similar to yours
I had a Gold Tone CC-IT that I learned on. It was a well-made instrument, but the tone and volume weren't there. I recently bought a 1925 Weymann that has plenty of volume without the resonator, so I mostly play it as an open back.
I think the reason that most pros play 19 frets is because it is easier to get a good tone out of longer strings. I sometimes miss the 17 fret neck, but as you get better, you will get more comfortable moving your hand around the neck on a 19 fret.
BTW, I played WIll's Gold Tone, I quite liked it. But not for $900, which is what I payed for the Weymann.
Avi, most banjo tuning pegs are geared at a 4:1 ratio. On mandolins and guitars, 8:1 is more the norm, so it's easier to make fine adjustments. If I could find good 8:1 banjo tuners, I'd change them out in a heart beat.
I've also considered upgrading to one of the high-end banjo bridges just out of curiousity. A number of people are making bridges now out of "immersed" hardwoods (dredged up from the bottom of Lake Superior), and other materials, with "improved" designs on everything from the feet to the string notches. These range in price from $20 to $30--an inexpensive upgrade if they improve the tone half as much as promised.
When you guys say you like the Gold Tone’s neck, what do you like about it? I like the chunkiest neck I can get on most instruments, but I bet you’re gonna tell me it goes in the other direction.
P.S. Pete's Weymann is a sweet banjo--great clear tone that blends well with other instruments without getting lost. Twice the price of my Gold Tone, but also in a whole 'nuther class of quality.
Bob, the Gold Tone neck is on the small, slender side. On the IT 250, my guess is that it's slightly narrower than many other 4-string necks, and slimmer back to front as well. But with a nice, ergonomic shape to the cross-section--it just fits my hand very well. More like a big mandolin neck than a down-sized banjo neck, and that suits me. Also, the finish on both the neck itself and the fingerboard is flawless, and the fret job is as good as any I've ever seen on any instrument. (I hate it when you can feel the end of every fret when you move up and down the neck.) Very smooth playing.
Will said: "I hate it when you can feel the end of every fret when you move up and down the neck"
And here we plunge into the cold dry winter, with it's nasty ability to expose fret ends on any instrument. I am going out tonight to get yet another humidifier in my feeble attempts to fight the inevitable.
Well, when I worked at Flatiron Mandolins, I did all the fret work, and there's absolutely no reason to run the fret wire right up to the edge of the neck, whether or not you bind the fingerboard. Simple enough to cut the frets a skoosh short--and no one ever frets a string at the very edge of the fingerboard anyway (even when bending notes in blues or rock). Plus, they're supposed to be dressed to taper the top corners. So even if you get a little shrinkage when your furnace turns your living room into the Atacama, the frets shouldn't stick out. Just lazy fret installation, as far as I can tell, and it's enough to keep me from buying an instrument, even if I like everything else about it.
The Gold Tone IT-250 is a better instrument than the IT-CC but the IT-CC can be made a little better. The tuners are terrible, they are not precise and they "grind" when you turn them. I would replace them with a set of $70 Gotohs which may be the best tuner for the money out there anyway. In addition the tailpiece is cast pot metal, I think, and may buzz. A $15-20 Waverly copy is much better (a vintage is even better, but you would be paying $40+ or so for that.) Most banjos come with a $3 bridge which may or may not be decent. Right now I am using an experimental Red Henry banjo bridge, but an Emerson or a Snuffy Smith ($15-$20) will do fine. Or you can go to Mike Smith's site (http://www.kateyzbb.com) and tell him what you want. Don't be put off by the five string focus, he makes the best tenor banjo bridges out there. All you have to do is mention that is what you want and he will make it for you.
You can change out the head, but that's not really needed. However you do need to tighten the head as all new banjos have loose heads due to travel and the natural stretching of the plastic head from the factory to you. A good setup will do wonders.
I built what is basically an IT-250 Archtop from a surplus Gold Tone neck and FQMS parts for about $600. It is a great banjo and was a lot of fun to build. Gold Tone banjos are fairly good buys. But I still love my vintage banjos <G>
The 250 series specs are on the Gold Tone site under "Tenor Special AT." Gold Tone will make a mix and match banjo for you if you ask and at the price they usually sell the five strings at. On occasion they will put out special runs. They will also sell you any part you want at a reasonable price. When I bought my neck Wayne Rogers, the owner, gave me a deal on one that was left over from a conversion to a five string. It had never been played and I had FQMS fit it for $20 to my rim. All the hard work was done at that point.
I just looked at the tenor AT Special (which is a 250 series banjo for retail $999) and I still don't like the tailpiece. If I got this banjo I probably would get a similar FQMS clamshell tailpiece and maybe new tuners, but I think that the tuners on the higher end instruments are better.
Ive got a 19 fret Lange Challenger banjo (circa 1920) which is in excellent condition- new skin head, neck adjusted, beautiful tone, easy to play, and I may be selling it soon. Just waiting for my Majestic 19 fret which is being refretted and outfitted with geared tuners to be done. Get in touch if you're interested.
Arbo
Will...my mandolin is.....a......Flatiron .....and it exposes it's frets a bit in the winter. In the summer it's perfect. By the way, I think it's a tremendous instrument. I do need to get a partial refret on it and maybe I'll ask to have the fret ends filed back jus a bit. They are indeed tapered at the ends and the neck is bound. It's an A5 Artist. Oh - wait - this is a 1998 Nashville model - perhaps you were not doing fret work at that time anymore. Let's say that it's all Gibson's fault then ;) I'm sure you did a good job on your instruments. The reality is that even good fretwork can get exposed if there is enough shrinkage.
Always one to take the middle course, I have an 18-fret banjo. It's a vintage Weyman Keystone State open back, the "beginner" cheaper line they produced in the '20s. You see them show up in the online vintage instrument stores from time to time for about $500. I'm very happy with it. The volume is just right for sessions of about six people, and I can still hear it clearly (and I'm told it can be heard) over an accordian and several fidddles.
Stretching is moderate, unless you want to do something foolish like playing the Musical Priest.
I prefer the sound to the Gold Tone T-250, but I think that's just personal preference. The tuners are a pain, and I need to carry a small screwdriver in my case to tghten them from time to time. One of these days I'll get around to replacing them.
Love the comment about The Musical Priest! I'm mainly a fiddler, but recently I'm really enjoying playing banjo. I'm sure glad I didn't try THAT delicious tune, so flowing on fiddle, as one of my first banjo tries ..(and I thought it was just me.)
More banjo questions
More banjo questions
I THINK I'm looking for a 17 fret tenor banjo with resonator to give me lots of volume and easy transition from mandolin, for dances and busking.
Certain camps are trying to persuade me that a 19 fret with/without resonator will be preferable.
I have given some thought to the Deering Goodtime Special/Pickers Plus, and have just heard about the GoldTone Irish Tenor (about the same price). Has anyone played either/both?
At the price, some experts are claiming I would be better of with a vintage banjo. I don't want to get into high maintenance or alteration issues.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by oldstrings
Re: More banjo questions
I don't think there is much in it although most professionals play 19 fret instruments so I guess there is a lesson in there. For me 17 frets are just as good as 19 frets and can be easier to get up to speed on due to shorter scale, although slightly harder to keep in tune. I have two gold tones, one with a resonator and one without, they are well put together and good value. Set up properly they are LOUD, but with a good tone.
I have never played a deering.
Vintage instruments have the advantage of generally holding their value, whereas a new Deering or Goldtone will depreciate heavily as soon as you take it out of the case. In terms of durability a quality vintage instrument that has been moderately well looked after should give you no problems in that regard. As I have said before, and am not afraid to say again
) I think Vegas represent great value for money and a little wonder, tubaphone or whyte laydie will make a great sound, hold its value and be a pleasure to play (if well set up).
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by nick b
Re: More banjo questions
I picked up an anonymous vintage 17 fret tenor about a month ago. It's likely made by slingerland based upon mugwumps website (the peghead is definitely slingerland). When I bought it, I compared it two two other vintage tenor banjos (Kay and Claraphone) and the gold tones the store had in stock, and the one I found had a much better sound and has a rim about twice as thick as any other tenor I've seen (nice birds-eye maple). It's also open back.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you can find a well cared for vintage banjo, they can be a steal...I paid $125 USD for mine.
Resonators will be louder, but well set-up and open back can be sufficiently loud, too.
Eric
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Jayhawk
Re: More banjo questions
Oldstrings,
I have to agree that a well setup vintage banjo will provide no more problems than a newer one and that the Vega Model N or Little Wonder are great buys in the 17 fret iteration. 17 fret necks have less of a tendency to warp and if you are lucky you can get a great banjo (compared to anything) if you happen across one that was built by the same guys that built the #9s. According to Vinnie Mondello (a very well known tenor expert , google him) this happened quite a bit because they only made a limited number of the expensive models and the less expensive ones made the real money so everyone had to pitch in.
I like the Gold Tone - you have to get a new bridge, tailpiece and tuners to make it a worthwhile instrument, and I was impressed with the Goodtime even though it looks like a high school shop project (it works, and that is what counts.) but I still prefer the older banjos. The vintage banjos cost about the same or less and have much more mojo and to my ear better sound.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com/oct05/interview.html
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by mikeyes
Re: More banjo questions
Mike,
I got a deal I couldn't pass up on a new GoldTone Irish Tenor - the more expensive open back one. I paid less than half the list price - how could I not take it? However, I play mostly mandolin and this is my introduction into banjos so I have nothing to compare it with. Can you tell me what I could expect from a new bridge, tailpiece and tuners and which ones would be good replacement ones?
Thanks!
Avi
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by improziv
Re: More banjo questions
Mike (and others):
Thanks for the input. The Gold Tone IT250 (not Cripple Creek) I was referring to is a new one which I have seen no information on; not even from Gold Tone. It sells for about $900.00 U.S.
Do you think this model would also need upgrading?
Ken
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by oldstrings
Re: More banjo questions
Ken, I have a Gold Tone IT 250. I paid less than $500 USD new for it (no resonator, but hardshell case included). It's a good banjo--very comfortable to play, decent tone. Mine came with the fiberskyn head, which gives a richer tone than the standard issue mylar heads. I'm very happy with it. I tweaked the set up a bit--tightened the head, lowered the bridge a skoosh, and dialed in the tailpiece. The neck is really nice--excellent fret job, great intonation (well, as good as it gets for a short-scale banjo), and nice feel. The action was spot on right out of the case.
All that said, if I were going to spend $800 or more, I'd look for a vintage banjo.
If the scale length is important to you, bear in mind that not all 17-fret necks are the same length.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: More banjo questions
Will - that's the one that I have too. The neck is outstanding, in my opinion. I am just curious about Mike's comments as for upgrades. The tuners are somewhat "touchy". Tiny movements make larger pitch changes - larger than what I'm used on my mandolin anyway. I don't have a good frame of reference to say if that's normal or if an upgrade would help. Other than that, my experience is similar to yours
Avi
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by improziv
Re: More banjo questions
I had a Gold Tone CC-IT that I learned on. It was a well-made instrument, but the tone and volume weren't there. I recently bought a 1925 Weymann that has plenty of volume without the resonator, so I mostly play it as an open back.
I think the reason that most pros play 19 frets is because it is easier to get a good tone out of longer strings. I sometimes miss the 17 fret neck, but as you get better, you will get more comfortable moving your hand around the neck on a 19 fret.
BTW, I played WIll's Gold Tone, I quite liked it. But not for $900, which is what I payed for the Weymann.
Pete
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Reverend
Re: More banjo questions
Avi, most banjo tuning pegs are geared at a 4:1 ratio. On mandolins and guitars, 8:1 is more the norm, so it's easier to make fine adjustments. If I could find good 8:1 banjo tuners, I'd change them out in a heart beat.
I've also considered upgrading to one of the high-end banjo bridges just out of curiousity. A number of people are making bridges now out of "immersed" hardwoods (dredged up from the bottom of Lake Superior), and other materials, with "improved" designs on everything from the feet to the string notches. These range in price from $20 to $30--an inexpensive upgrade if they improve the tone half as much as promised.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: More banjo questions
When you guys say you like the Gold Tone’s neck, what do you like about it? I like the chunkiest neck I can get on most instruments, but I bet you’re gonna tell me it goes in the other direction.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: More banjo questions
P.S. Pete's Weymann is a sweet banjo--great clear tone that blends well with other instruments without getting lost. Twice the price of my Gold Tone, but also in a whole 'nuther class of quality.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: More banjo questions
Bob, the Gold Tone neck is on the small, slender side. On the IT 250, my guess is that it's slightly narrower than many other 4-string necks, and slimmer back to front as well. But with a nice, ergonomic shape to the cross-section--it just fits my hand very well. More like a big mandolin neck than a down-sized banjo neck, and that suits me. Also, the finish on both the neck itself and the fingerboard is flawless, and the fret job is as good as any I've ever seen on any instrument. (I hate it when you can feel the end of every fret when you move up and down the neck.) Very smooth playing.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: More banjo questions
Will said: "I hate it when you can feel the end of every fret when you move up and down the neck"
And here we plunge into the cold dry winter, with it's nasty ability to expose fret ends on any instrument. I am going out tonight to get yet another humidifier in my feeble attempts to fight the inevitable.
Avi
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by improziv
Re: More banjo questions
Well, when I worked at Flatiron Mandolins, I did all the fret work, and there's absolutely no reason to run the fret wire right up to the edge of the neck, whether or not you bind the fingerboard. Simple enough to cut the frets a skoosh short--and no one ever frets a string at the very edge of the fingerboard anyway (even when bending notes in blues or rock). Plus, they're supposed to be dressed to taper the top corners. So even if you get a little shrinkage when your furnace turns your living room into the Atacama, the frets shouldn't stick out. Just lazy fret installation, as far as I can tell, and it's enough to keep me from buying an instrument, even if I like everything else about it.
# Posted on November 19th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: More banjo questions
The Gold Tone IT-250 is a better instrument than the IT-CC but the IT-CC can be made a little better. The tuners are terrible, they are not precise and they "grind" when you turn them. I would replace them with a set of $70 Gotohs which may be the best tuner for the money out there anyway. In addition the tailpiece is cast pot metal, I think, and may buzz. A $15-20 Waverly copy is much better (a vintage is even better, but you would be paying $40+ or so for that.) Most banjos come with a $3 bridge which may or may not be decent. Right now I am using an experimental Red Henry banjo bridge, but an Emerson or a Snuffy Smith ($15-$20) will do fine. Or you can go to Mike Smith's site (http://www.kateyzbb.com) and tell him what you want. Don't be put off by the five string focus, he makes the best tenor banjo bridges out there. All you have to do is mention that is what you want and he will make it for you.
You can change out the head, but that's not really needed. However you do need to tighten the head as all new banjos have loose heads due to travel and the natural stretching of the plastic head from the factory to you. A good setup will do wonders.
I built what is basically an IT-250 Archtop from a surplus Gold Tone neck and FQMS parts for about $600. It is a great banjo and was a lot of fun to build. Gold Tone banjos are fairly good buys. But I still love my vintage banjos <G>
The 250 series specs are on the Gold Tone site under "Tenor Special AT." Gold Tone will make a mix and match banjo for you if you ask and at the price they usually sell the five strings at. On occasion they will put out special runs. They will also sell you any part you want at a reasonable price. When I bought my neck Wayne Rogers, the owner, gave me a deal on one that was left over from a conversion to a five string. It had never been played and I had FQMS fit it for $20 to my rim. All the hard work was done at that point.
I just looked at the tenor AT Special (which is a 250 series banjo for retail $999) and I still don't like the tailpiece. If I got this banjo I probably would get a similar FQMS clamshell tailpiece and maybe new tuners, but I think that the tuners on the higher end instruments are better.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com/oct05/interview.html
# Posted on November 19th 2005 by mikeyes
Re: More banjo questions
Ive got a 19 fret Lange Challenger banjo (circa 1920) which is in excellent condition- new skin head, neck adjusted, beautiful tone, easy to play, and I may be selling it soon. Just waiting for my Majestic 19 fret which is being refretted and outfitted with geared tuners to be done. Get in touch if you're interested.
Arbo
# Posted on November 19th 2005 by Imnotirish
Re: More banjo questions
Will...my mandolin is.....a......Flatiron
.....and it exposes it's frets a bit in the winter. In the summer it's perfect. By the way, I think it's a tremendous instrument. I do need to get a partial refret on it and maybe I'll ask to have the fret ends filed back jus a bit. They are indeed tapered at the ends and the neck is bound. It's an A5 Artist. Oh - wait - this is a 1998 Nashville model - perhaps you were not doing fret work at that time anymore. Let's say that it's all Gibson's fault then ;) I'm sure you did a good job on your instruments. The reality is that even good fretwork can get exposed if there is enough shrinkage.
Interesting to learn about your background
Cheers
Avi
# Posted on November 19th 2005 by improziv
Re: More banjo questions
Always one to take the middle course, I have an 18-fret banjo. It's a vintage Weyman Keystone State open back, the "beginner" cheaper line they produced in the '20s. You see them show up in the online vintage instrument stores from time to time for about $500. I'm very happy with it. The volume is just right for sessions of about six people, and I can still hear it clearly (and I'm told it can be heard) over an accordian and several fidddles.
Stretching is moderate, unless you want to do something foolish like playing the Musical Priest.
I prefer the sound to the Gold Tone T-250, but I think that's just personal preference. The tuners are a pain, and I need to carry a small screwdriver in my case to tghten them from time to time. One of these days I'll get around to replacing them.
# Posted on November 19th 2005 by grego
Re: More banjo questions
That's "IT-250"
# Posted on November 19th 2005 by grego
Re: More banjo questions
LOL, Avi, the irony there would be perfect, except I worked at Flatiron back in the early 1980s. (Whew!
)
# Posted on November 19th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: More banjo questions
Love the comment about The Musical Priest! I'm mainly a fiddler, but recently I'm really enjoying playing banjo. I'm sure glad I didn't try THAT delicious tune, so flowing on fiddle, as one of my first banjo tries ..(and I thought it was just me.)
# Posted on November 19th 2005 by fairhairedboy