I was visiting a friend who has accumulated gobs of instruments and after we played several different fiddles, he pulled out another one and said, “This one loves to play in tune”. And it does. I wasn’t crazy about the voice, but it seemed to somehow make it very easy to play in tune. I don’t know how to explain it, but even double stops seemed to just fall right into tune without any searching. Anybody else experienced this?
My friend builds guitars and has revoiced a few fiddles. He thinks, all other things being equal, the secret to a fiddle that wants to play in tune is in the way the top and back are graduated. I dunno. I suspect some other things are involved, but the fiddle is an extremely hard instrument to analyze.
I think part of the secret lies in a low action, so that the strings don't acquire too much extra tension when pressed onto the fingerboard. If there is minimal change in tension of a string when the finger is pressed down then intonation will be that much easier. The type of string may also be significant in this respect - synthetic/gut core strings operate at a lower tension than metal core (usually steel).
The problems beginners have in intonation when playing the fiddle are, I believe, closely related to the fact that most beginners' instruments have far too high an action. The strings (often steel-cored on a "cheap" instrument that hasn't been set up properly) are therefore not easy to press, especially with untrained fingers, and this is a real barrier to learning to play in tune.
A further point is that good quality strings that haven't been overplayed should be true over their length - so that a 5th played across two strings is an accurate fifth whether it's being played in the 1st position or the 11th. This assumes, of course, that the bridge is accurately set up.
If a good set of strings on a properly set-up fiddle are tuned in accurate 5ths, then the internal resonances of a good fiddle will come into play and make playing in tune that much easier.
I'm lucky enough to be friends with the craftsman that made my fiddle. Years ago, I was in his shop, and he had a back in the vise that he was carving down. Every now and again, he'd take out a junk bow, and draw it up the edge of the incipient back, listening to the tone. He said that the back needed to be at a certain tone AND fit a general "carving template." He mentioned that he did the same thing with the top, and then tuned the two halves to match. Not that they both had to be the same note, but they HAD to sound in conjuncture with each other.
My thought is that fiddles that "like to play in tune" have been constructed with a similar process. Also, Trevor has things spot-on with talk of action/string travel. Guitars are BAD for this, as are some 'cellos. String length plays into this, and it's VERY tricky to get the action right on a 'cello. If you ever get the chance to look at a "professionally set up" 'cello, notice how amazingly low the action is. It almost seems like the string will rattle on the fingerboard when played open.
I'm a rank beginner on fiddle, so I may be clueless. I have, however, been noticing some things with my intonation. When I had the fiddle tuned down to Bb(looser strings, hence lower action?), intonation was easier. I tuned it back up to normal pitch last night and it was harder to play in tune. It is a cheap instrument, although it was set up by a good violin maker/repairer. The action may still be somewhat high, as he is a classical violin guy, and they like a higher action than fiddlers.
So I was wondering, should I go back to Bb where it's easier(plus that's my favorite key), or stay with concert pitch and force myself to play it right? Which would help me more in the long run? I might get a nice fiddle in the far distant future, but for now, this is it. What do you suggest?
Interesting comments. I think it’s safe to say that all of the fiddles my friend and I played that day were set up very similarly (he did the setup on all of them). All had low action and I think they were all strung with Prim mediums. I can’t vouch for details like equal scale lengths across all strings and now the scientist in me wants to go back and take precise measurements.
I think I’m talking myself into suspecting that the biggest part of the difference was in the effective string lengths. The breakpoint of the string across the bridge and across the edge of the nut would certainly affect the vibrating length of the string and different vibrating lengths would mean slight differences in intervals on the strings. I know from experience how much the intonation of a guitar can be affected by the shape of the top edge of the bridge saddle, and that’s with a much longer scale length than the fiddle. A shorter scale length would be affected even more.
Still, there was something more to it. The “special” fiddle plays very pure sounding notes and was very easy to play in tune on a single string. It almost felt like there were invisible frets keeping the notes precisely defined.
Looser strings, hence less proportional change in tension when you stop them.
"It is a cheap instrument"
The price of an instrument may have little to do with its quality as an instrument. My favorite fiddle at the moment is a Contonese Cutie I paid $200 for new with bow and case. The bow's not bad either. Go figure. Handle fell off the case in a week. I'm glad they cut corners on the case, not the fiddle.
The build quality is also rather better then some of my much more expensive vintage and antique stuff. You may pay nearly as much as you like for crap if it has "collectable value."
So the issue with cheap fiddles is to acquire a good cheap fiddle rather than a crap one. It can be done, it's just a bit harder than if you solve the problem by throwing money around.
"it was set up by a good violin maker/repairer."
This is the important part.
"Which would help me more in the long run?"
Learning to play what you want to hear no matter what the fiddle is doing. The bane of the classical orchestra is the violinist who has learned notes as locations on the fingerboard, rather than a sound, and who cannot adjust when a string goes a bit out of tune during a performance.
It's a more difficult journey to begin, but makes life ever so much easier as the journey progresses. Note position markers for beginners are evil as it trains them to think of notes as physical locations.
But if you like Bb, you like Bb. Nothin' wrong with that.
"It almost felt like there were invisible frets keeping the notes precisely defined."
God save me from that.
"My fiddle wants to play in tune, but I won't let it."
seisflutes - I reckon what you're finding when tuned down is that the tone is a bit gentler and so it is less crucial to be spot on in tune, it shrieks at you less! In really early stages that's fine if it is more encouraging, but I think one would want to push to get into standard pitch. There are good reasons why most tunes are in D and G (and related modes and minors) with the fiddle in standard tuning. Practicing on your own, it's no odds. If you play with others and they're happy to tune down, fine too.
Philem, my cello has been professionally set up, and the strings are just about as close to the fingerboard as they can be without rattles or buzzes. I consider this to be important for easier playing in view of the high-position passages that seem to occur more and more frequently in the orchestral music we perform; and solo cellists, who are forever playing high position passages in concertos and the like, will always opt for an easier life with a very low fingerboard action.
If, in time, I get a particular note (most likely the E or F on the A-string) buzzing when played I know it will be because the cello fingerboard is starting to wear in that region and will therefore need attention by an expert (the answer is NOT a higher bridge).
My fiddles also have a low action, but this was something I did myself by careful work on the bridges.
It's in the instrument. My first fiddle fought me... the second was much more accommodating... the third more so... all with steel strings, and pro set-up. I could not have put it any better than luap ekrub (seven comments up, and obviously wise).
In my teens I had a classical violin that was, according to the original owner (my teacher), deliberately built to only tune to a 440 A. I never asked him to explain how this was done, and unfortunately he passed away not long after selling it to me, so I never did find out. It actually wouldn't tune to a 445 A, though; I tried once when I was playing in an orchestra whose conductor insisted on a 445 A. The D and E strings simply wouldn't hit a harmonious chord with the A no matter how I finagled the pegs.
But if you tuned this violin to a 440 A, it not only stayed in tune for longer than average (sometimes for weeks on end), but it really did seem to want to play in tune; it seemed to be easier to hit the right notes and harder to hit the wrong ones. The whole fingerboard was a sweet spot. Psychological effect? Maybe. A couple of my friends had the same experiences with it that I did, though, so I'm not sure.
*Sigh* Wish I hadn't sold that instrument. Big mistake.
There are several ways to do this. One has already been mentioned in the thread. Another is to place a tuning fork on the table at various points and listen to how it resonates.
The most advanced modern method involves sprinking the underside of the table with a powder, vibrating it, and graduating the top to produce certain standing patterns in the powder.
"*Sigh* Wish I hadn't sold that instrument. Big mistake"
Oooooooooh, yeah. Been there. Done that. We should make up T-shirts or something..
My fiddle has a touchy E-string, always. Any brand of string, nay season, any weather, it goes out in either direction (I've looked for patterns and found none). It needs attention several times an evening.
Overall, I'm besotted with the thing and am with it for life. But this one problem just doesn't go away.
"Looser strings, hence less proportional change in tension when you stop them."
Gotcha.
"Learning to play what you want to hear no matter what the fiddle is doing...... Note position markers for beginners are evil as it trains them to think of notes as physical locations."
Righto. I definitely try to do that. There are some faint marks on the fingerboard left over from when my mom was trying to play it, but I ignore them because they're not even quite right! They're close, but it doen't ring properly if I use them as guidelines. It's just easier to do if the fiddle's in Bb!
"seisflutes - I reckon what you're finding when tuned down is that the tone is a bit gentler and so it is less crucial to be spot on in tune, it shrieks at you less! "
Well, maybe, but I don't really think so. I'm quite good at hearing when things are in tune, even low pitched things(like my Bb flute). And tuning the drones on the pipes to D against the chanter's A and that kind of thing, I'm good at at that. And playing with my sister(who's been playing 8 or 9 years and is usually in tune) tuned down, I hear much less out-of-tuneness than in standard tuning. You might be right though, as I am a rank (and feeling humble) beginner.
A well regarded cello player/teacher once explained this phenomenon :
the more you play the violin( in tune) the more the wooden body 'resonates' at those pitches. Over a long period of time the violin body retains a 'memory' of the correct pitch and will sing out when a note is right but not if the note is off pitch.
This is why a violin's tone improves over time , with some instruments being over 150 years old and sounding better than ever.
Does your fiddle want to play in tune?
Does your fiddle want to play in tune?
I was visiting a friend who has accumulated gobs of instruments and after we played several different fiddles, he pulled out another one and said, “This one loves to play in tune”. And it does. I wasn’t crazy about the voice, but it seemed to somehow make it very easy to play in tune. I don’t know how to explain it, but even double stops seemed to just fall right into tune without any searching. Anybody else experienced this?
My friend builds guitars and has revoiced a few fiddles. He thinks, all other things being equal, the secret to a fiddle that wants to play in tune is in the way the top and back are graduated. I dunno. I suspect some other things are involved, but the fiddle is an extremely hard instrument to analyze.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Does your fiddle want to play in tune?
I think part of the secret lies in a low action, so that the strings don't acquire too much extra tension when pressed onto the fingerboard. If there is minimal change in tension of a string when the finger is pressed down then intonation will be that much easier. The type of string may also be significant in this respect - synthetic/gut core strings operate at a lower tension than metal core (usually steel).
The problems beginners have in intonation when playing the fiddle are, I believe, closely related to the fact that most beginners' instruments have far too high an action. The strings (often steel-cored on a "cheap" instrument that hasn't been set up properly) are therefore not easy to press, especially with untrained fingers, and this is a real barrier to learning to play in tune.
A further point is that good quality strings that haven't been overplayed should be true over their length - so that a 5th played across two strings is an accurate fifth whether it's being played in the 1st position or the 11th. This assumes, of course, that the bridge is accurately set up.
If a good set of strings on a properly set-up fiddle are tuned in accurate 5ths, then the internal resonances of a good fiddle will come into play and make playing in tune that much easier.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by lazyhound
Re: Does your fiddle want to play in tune?
My fiddle wants to play in tune, but I won't let it.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by LastToFinish
Re: Does your fiddle want to play in tune?
I'm lucky enough to be friends with the craftsman that made my fiddle. Years ago, I was in his shop, and he had a back in the vise that he was carving down. Every now and again, he'd take out a junk bow, and draw it up the edge of the incipient back, listening to the tone. He said that the back needed to be at a certain tone AND fit a general "carving template." He mentioned that he did the same thing with the top, and then tuned the two halves to match. Not that they both had to be the same note, but they HAD to sound in conjuncture with each other.
My thought is that fiddles that "like to play in tune" have been constructed with a similar process. Also, Trevor has things spot-on with talk of action/string travel. Guitars are BAD for this, as are some 'cellos. String length plays into this, and it's VERY tricky to get the action right on a 'cello. If you ever get the chance to look at a "professionally set up" 'cello, notice how amazingly low the action is. It almost seems like the string will rattle on the fingerboard when played open.
HTH
-P
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Philem
Re: Does your fiddle want to play in tune?
I'm a rank beginner on fiddle, so I may be clueless. I have, however, been noticing some things with my intonation. When I had the fiddle tuned down to Bb(looser strings, hence lower action?), intonation was easier. I tuned it back up to normal pitch last night and it was harder to play in tune. It is a cheap instrument, although it was set up by a good violin maker/repairer. The action may still be somewhat high, as he is a classical violin guy, and they like a higher action than fiddlers.
So I was wondering, should I go back to Bb where it's easier(plus that's my favorite key), or stay with concert pitch and force myself to play it right? Which would help me more in the long run? I might get a nice fiddle in the far distant future, but for now, this is it. What do you suggest?
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by seisflutes
Re: Does your fiddle want to play in tune?
Interesting comments. I think it’s safe to say that all of the fiddles my friend and I played that day were set up very similarly (he did the setup on all of them). All had low action and I think they were all strung with Prim mediums. I can’t vouch for details like equal scale lengths across all strings and now the scientist in me wants to go back and take precise measurements.
I think I’m talking myself into suspecting that the biggest part of the difference was in the effective string lengths. The breakpoint of the string across the bridge and across the edge of the nut would certainly affect the vibrating length of the string and different vibrating lengths would mean slight differences in intervals on the strings. I know from experience how much the intonation of a guitar can be affected by the shape of the top edge of the bridge saddle, and that’s with a much longer scale length than the fiddle. A shorter scale length would be affected even more.
Still, there was something more to it. The “special” fiddle plays very pure sounding notes and was very easy to play in tune on a single string. It almost felt like there were invisible frets keeping the notes precisely defined.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Does your fiddle want to play in tune?
"looser strings, hence lower action?"
Looser strings, hence less proportional change in tension when you stop them.
"It is a cheap instrument"
The price of an instrument may have little to do with its quality as an instrument. My favorite fiddle at the moment is a Contonese Cutie I paid $200 for new with bow and case. The bow's not bad either. Go figure. Handle fell off the case in a week. I'm glad they cut corners on the case, not the fiddle.
The build quality is also rather better then some of my much more expensive vintage and antique stuff. You may pay nearly as much as you like for crap if it has "collectable value."
So the issue with cheap fiddles is to acquire a good cheap fiddle rather than a crap one. It can be done, it's just a bit harder than if you solve the problem by throwing money around.
"it was set up by a good violin maker/repairer."
This is the important part.
"Which would help me more in the long run?"
Learning to play what you want to hear no matter what the fiddle is doing. The bane of the classical orchestra is the violinist who has learned notes as locations on the fingerboard, rather than a sound, and who cannot adjust when a string goes a bit out of tune during a performance.
It's a more difficult journey to begin, but makes life ever so much easier as the journey progresses. Note position markers for beginners are evil as it trains them to think of notes as physical locations.
But if you like Bb, you like Bb. Nothin' wrong with that.
"It almost felt like there were invisible frets keeping the notes precisely defined."
God save me from that.
"My fiddle wants to play in tune, but I won't let it."
Hear, hear!
KFG
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by KFG
Re: Does your fiddle want to play in tune?
seisflutes - I reckon what you're finding when tuned down is that the tone is a bit gentler and so it is less crucial to be spot on in tune, it shrieks at you less! In really early stages that's fine if it is more encouraging, but I think one would want to push to get into standard pitch. There are good reasons why most tunes are in D and G (and related modes and minors) with the fiddle in standard tuning. Practicing on your own, it's no odds. If you play with others and they're happy to tune down, fine too.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by TomB-R
Re: Does your fiddle want to play in tune?
"There are good reasons why most tunes are in D and G (and related modes and minors) with the fiddle in standard tuning."
Off the top of my head the only one I can think of is, " Because that's the way we do it around here."
KFG
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by KFG
Re: Does your fiddle want to play in tune?
Philem, my cello has been professionally set up, and the strings are just about as close to the fingerboard as they can be without rattles or buzzes. I consider this to be important for easier playing in view of the high-position passages that seem to occur more and more frequently in the orchestral music we perform; and solo cellists, who are forever playing high position passages in concertos and the like, will always opt for an easier life with a very low fingerboard action.
If, in time, I get a particular note (most likely the E or F on the A-string) buzzing when played I know it will be because the cello fingerboard is starting to wear in that region and will therefore need attention by an expert (the answer is NOT a higher bridge).
My fiddles also have a low action, but this was something I did myself by careful work on the bridges.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by lazyhound
Re: Does your fiddle want to play in tune?
It's in the instrument. My first fiddle fought me... the second was much more accommodating... the third more so... all with steel strings, and pro set-up. I could not have put it any better than luap ekrub (seven comments up, and obviously wise).
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by drone
Re: Does your fiddle want to play in tune?
In my teens I had a classical violin that was, according to the original owner (my teacher), deliberately built to only tune to a 440 A. I never asked him to explain how this was done, and unfortunately he passed away not long after selling it to me, so I never did find out. It actually wouldn't tune to a 445 A, though; I tried once when I was playing in an orchestra whose conductor insisted on a 445 A. The D and E strings simply wouldn't hit a harmonious chord with the A no matter how I finagled the pegs.
But if you tuned this violin to a 440 A, it not only stayed in tune for longer than average (sometimes for weeks on end), but it really did seem to want to play in tune; it seemed to be easier to hit the right notes and harder to hit the wrong ones. The whole fingerboard was a sweet spot. Psychological effect? Maybe. A couple of my friends had the same experiences with it that I did, though, so I'm not sure.
*Sigh* Wish I hadn't sold that instrument. Big mistake.
# Posted on November 18th 2005 by sara g
Re: Does your fiddle want to play in tune?
There are several ways to do this. One has already been mentioned in the thread. Another is to place a tuning fork on the table at various points and listen to how it resonates.
The most advanced modern method involves sprinking the underside of the table with a powder, vibrating it, and graduating the top to produce certain standing patterns in the powder.
"*Sigh* Wish I hadn't sold that instrument. Big mistake"
Oooooooooh, yeah. Been there. Done that. We should make up T-shirts or something..
KFG
# Posted on November 19th 2005 by KFG
Re: Does your fiddle want to play in tune?
My fiddle has a touchy E-string, always. Any brand of string, nay season, any weather, it goes out in either direction (I've looked for patterns and found none). It needs attention several times an evening.
Overall, I'm besotted with the thing and am with it for life. But this one problem just doesn't go away.
Weirdness. All thoughts appreciated.
# Posted on November 19th 2005 by cathrynb
Re: Does your fiddle want to play in tune?
Turn your coat inside out and put out a saucer of milk. If that doesn't work you might have to install a steel tailpiece and tuning peg.
KFG
# Posted on November 19th 2005 by KFG
Re: Does your fiddle want to play in tune?
"Steel tailpiece and a tuning peg"?
That be witchraft, I tell 'ee !
# Posted on November 19th 2005 by Jay-eye
Re: Does your fiddle want to play in tune?
Naaaaah! The pixie just won't like to mess with 'em is all.
KFG
# Posted on November 19th 2005 by KFG
Re: Does your fiddle want to play in tune?
If you want to be playing in four flats or sharps, KFG, that's fine by me.
# Posted on November 19th 2005 by TomB-R
Re: Does your fiddle want to play in tune?
Actually, your comment doesn't even make sense in reference to the way I want to play.
KFG
# Posted on November 19th 2005 by KFG
Re: Does your fiddle want to play in tune?
"Looser strings, hence less proportional change in tension when you stop them."
Gotcha.
"Learning to play what you want to hear no matter what the fiddle is doing...... Note position markers for beginners are evil as it trains them to think of notes as physical locations."
Righto. I definitely try to do that. There are some faint marks on the fingerboard left over from when my mom was trying to play it, but I ignore them because they're not even quite right! They're close, but it doen't ring properly if I use them as guidelines. It's just easier to do if the fiddle's in Bb!
"seisflutes - I reckon what you're finding when tuned down is that the tone is a bit gentler and so it is less crucial to be spot on in tune, it shrieks at you less! "
Well, maybe, but I don't really think so. I'm quite good at hearing when things are in tune, even low pitched things(like my Bb flute). And tuning the drones on the pipes to D against the chanter's A and that kind of thing, I'm good at at that. And playing with my sister(who's been playing 8 or 9 years and is usually in tune) tuned down, I hear much less out-of-tuneness than in standard tuning. You might be right though, as I am a rank (and feeling humble) beginner.
# Posted on November 19th 2005 by seisflutes
Re: Does your fiddle want to play in tune?
A well regarded cello player/teacher once explained this phenomenon :
the more you play the violin( in tune) the more the wooden body 'resonates' at those pitches. Over a long period of time the violin body retains a 'memory' of the correct pitch and will sing out when a note is right but not if the note is off pitch.
This is why a violin's tone improves over time , with some instruments being over 150 years old and sounding better than ever.
# Posted on November 22nd 2005 by imogenus