How many of you there have a generation whistle - how many of you out there have an in tune generation whistle? Forget generation - how many have got an in tune whistle - high or low?
I spent a lot of money on a Harper whistle last year then we came to record some demo tracks and I had to revert back to a generation becasue the generation whistle was more in tune than my nice one. I now have a very nice sounding whistle that I can't play except on my own.
Now when I buy a whistle I take my dad and his melodeon - that's what I play with so that's what I need to be in tune with.
I know whistles are only cheap instruments and for most people only a stepping stone to another instrument but surely they should still all be tuned correctly - if they're not then you won't be encouraged to play them with others and therefore never play music.
Moral of the story - chack that your expensive whistle is in tune before you part with your hard earned cash.
I agree with Glauber...most makers will refund or replace a whistle if it's defective. If you're nice about asking, they'll likely be nice about resolving your problem.
At the risk of putting a plug for Sindt whistles into every thread, my Sindt D is in tune for every note, verified against an electronic tuner. Can't say enough good things about the Sindts, and I don't get any $$ kickback--just a true fan of a great whistle.
Same for my Burkes, and Michael will take any whistle back within 30 days of purchase, no questions asked (or within 1 year, some questions asked). Instrument makers live and die by their reputations; they can't afford to have a bad instrument being shown around, or a dissatisfied customer saying bad things about their instruments. I'd contact the seller and if that doesn't work, contact the maker. If that doesn't work, make a lot of noise about it.
But before you start, make sure that melodeon is in tune! Or get a whistle that has a good tuning slide.
Another thing, it may just be that your new instrument is different enough from what you're used to (Generations), that it will take a few days for you to get used to it and able to play it to its best. Usually, an expen$ive whistle is easier to play than an cheap one, but i saw a picture of a Harper, and it looks somewhat different.
I think the question was directed about Generations, not higher end whistles (which are a whole 'nother beast). Generations can be made tune-able by running the fipple under hot tap water for about 2 minutes. After the glue has been softened by the heat gently twist off the fipple. Clean the remaining glue off with a bit a steel wool (or even better those green scrubbie pads used for polishing copper) Then the final step which I find nice is to dip the fipple end of the metal tube into melted candlewax. Clean up the excess wax & tune it up to an electric tuner. I've found they are somewhat well in tune. The whistle is deceptively easy, the ear needs to be used quite a bit as the second register, oftentimes notes in the upper octave need to be blown into tune. Generations & other straight bored whistles need to be 'blown in' more of this than a conically bored whistle. The Clarke Sweetone is a nice conical bore whistle that can be made tuneable & a beginer (or someone with no ear) will sound more in tune in the second octave.
I agree with you Will - Sindts are my favorite as well & John would defintely fix a dud (if one ever got out in the first place). Low end whistles are a different story, it's all up to the place you bought it from if they'll return it/ replace it. I guess Generation or Clarke might at best just send you another whistle if you sent a complaint, it's equally likely that they would send you a note that said "Ha-ha".
I've been playing the same Generation whistles for more years than I care to remember. I used Brad's method to make them tuneable. As with most wind instruments, I believe one is constantly "blowing" the instrument into tune. I find the timbre of my Generations to be mellow, a little on the quiet side, but basically in tune with themselves. Some of the newer, custom made whistles seem overbearing, and somewhat shrill to me. Perhaps I'm just sensitive to the sound given my long time relationship with the Generations I own.
Arbo
On any cylindrical bore whistle, the upper register will always be flat to the lower octave. I always had a devil of a time trying to get it to sound in tune at all. You'll need to tune it so that the 1st octave A and the 2nd octave E each sound pretty close to in-tune. The upper register needs to be overblown to sort of "lip up" the upper octave.
If you like the way your Harper plays, I would recommend really working with it until you figure out how to work with its particular idiosyncracies. One of my whistle-playing friends in Phoenix uses Harpers on stage whenever he plays his traditional Welsh tunes. He's one the best whistle players out there and he swears by them. Sindts are also pretty nice, especially if you're keen on the Generations. I myself got so annoyed with the whole tuning fiasco that I bought a Burke Brass Pro Session. It is the finest whistle I have ever played, and his way of configuring the whistle bore brings both octaves into tune with each other. It's absolutely dynamite, but I must warn you that if you pick one up and start playing it, you can pretty much forget about doing anything else for the rest of the day. It's like whistle-players' heroin.
Generations are fickle things. I have one that my uncle bought in the '70's, never played, and gave to me; and it's the best whistle I have. Since then, they've started to really become interested in the quantity of their whistles, rather than the quality, in order to sell more and keep them cheap. They're really having a problem with their tuning; high-end whistles are hand tuned, while Generations are just metal tubes with holes drilled in in certain sizes in certain places. Now, it's rumored that only 1 in 12 whistles are decent -- in tune etc. There's actually an article on this, saying something similar to what Brad said on Chiff & Fipple; http://www.chiffandfipple.com/tunable.html lots of good stuff on that site.
Anyways, that's just my thoughts about generations....
-mark
I have found that Generations and other similar
mass produced whistles tend to be made with the plastic mouthpiece pushed as far onto the metal tube as possible. If the whistle is slightly sharp, then Brad's tuning method described above works fine. If it is flat to start with, however, the only way to get it in tune is to file a small portion (say 1 - 2mm) off the top (NOT the bottom) of the tube. Of course, if the intonation was correct to start with, then it may end up slightly out once the whistle is up to pitch.
I have a tuneable D Susato, supposedly one of the better mass-produced whistles. Tuneable it may be, but in its sharpest position it only just hits concert pitch - and that's blowing just short of squeaking point. I hardly ever play it as, except in the very best hands, it sounds like a strangled cat, but one of these days I'll take a file to it. If you're going to strangle a cat, you might as well at least do it in tune.
I use Sindts and Generations and love them all, although the Sindt is slightly sharp at the top end. To remedy this I stick some tape over the top part of the top hole.
It's interesting what Mark says about old Generations. I have couple of old ones (that is the type with the ridge down the middle of the mouthpiece) and find them very mellow compared with the newer type. Consequently I always scour the local boot fairs and second hand shops in a frantic search for this disappearing breed.
Being a whistle junkie I would really like to try a Burke but I fear like Copelands they are quite rare in the UK. Still one day....
Harper's are notoriously out of tune. Hey, they're made by a gunsmith. I happen to be one of those lucky people who have an in tune Generation. Mind you, I don't play it. I play Abell whistles. They are a superior instrument to anything I have ever played. Simply beautiful blackwood and sterling silver with a robust tone and the perfect amount of chiff. http://www.abellflute.com
John Sindt is an expert machinist and whistle player (and maker) in Nyack New York. Mary Bergin now uses his whistles, among many other fine players. They're beautifully made of brass with a brass and delrin fipple--faithful to the simple design of the best traditional whistles, but with an incredible eye for precision. They're also very affordable--$85 US for a standard D, $90 for most of the low whistles. Go to the Chiff and Fipple whistle site and you'll find a review of Sindt whistles as well as contact info (I'll also send you their email).
I haven't noticed any tendency to run sharp in my Sindt D, but it also doesn't require as much air in the second octave as some whistles, so be careful not to overblow it.
Burkes look somewhat like the Sindts and also have the delrin fipple, but they have a bulge in the tuning slide area. They're cilyndrical, and have "perturbations" (pieces of plastic) set inside the bore to bring the octaves in tune (it works, somehow, they're very nicely in tune). AFAIK, you get them directly from the maker (predictably, http://www.burkewhistles.com). They're more expensive than the Sindts. Their tuning slides are very nice, have rubber o-rings in them, but they can seize (Michael Burke recommends moving the slide a little every time you play).
Burkes can also be purchased from Song of the Sea in Bar Harbor Maine, which has a website: www.songsea.com Mike Burke is a phenomenal whistlesmith, but only a fair entrepreneur; Song of the Sea doesn't make instruments, but they are topnotch about selling them. It is a match made in heaven.
Not having a Sindt, I can't comment for myself, but the word on the street is that you can't do a traditional cross-fingered Cnat on them, you have to half-hole it.
For c nat on my Sindt D I usually use the oxxooo fingering and it works fine, in tune with fixed pitch instruments, though I'm careful not to overblow it or it *will* sound sharp. For slow airs or where I want to increase the volume on the c nat for emphasis, I either half hole or play it oxxxox and then it's spot on no matter how hard I blow.
I don't mean to get into a spitting match over Sindts versus Burkes or any other good whistle. I think the Burkes are great instruments. But I've compared a friend's Sindt and Burke Bb whistles, and the Sindt Bb whistle is the best whistle I've ever heard or played. To my ear the Sindt had a cleaner (but still a whistle) tone, equal intonation, and markedly superior responsiveness. Every note was even and clear across the whole range and remarkably easy to blow. The Sindt is also about a third less costly than the Burke.
I've heard rumors of the Burke's problems with the tuning slide. Sindt solves this by having ridiculously close tolerances on his machining. The tuning slide is very snug but easily moved for tuning or cleaning. Even the machined sandwich of brass and delrin for the fipple is held togther by nothing more than friction (and a pin to ensure that nothing jars loose if the whistle is dropped)--no glue or brazes, just a supremely tight fit.
I think the bottom line with either of these makers is that if you're not completely happy with your whistle, they'll make it right. With John Sindt, you'll get the whistle before you're asked to pay for it. If you like it, you send him your money. If not, you ship it back and ask for tweaking or say thanks but no thanks. There's no risk, except the $5 shipping fee.
I wouldn't say these people need their heads examined - two of them have placed highly in all-Ireland competitions, one of whom won flat out. However I know another all-Ireland placer that stands by Abell's whistle steadfast. It really is a matter of personal taste.
Well, since i'm the one bringing up Burke, i think based on what i heard i'd recommend you go with the Sindt (same quality, cheaper). So, no spitting war here.
I bought the Burkes because i happened to meet Michael B. and he convinced me to get them. It's not every day that i have a chance to try out a tablefull of whistles and then choose the ones that hate me the least.
Slides, AFAIK, always have ridiculously close tolerances if they're the traditional style of metal on metal. Burke whistles have rubber o-rings, so there's more air between the slide and the main part of the whistle. The rings feel very nice, but they do get stuck. I'm trying cork grease on my high D, and the grease that came with the M&E flute on my low G. So far, this is working. Vaseline would probably do the trick too. I think the best way to keep them from seizing is keeping them rings lubricated.
But it *is* a matter of personal taste. Lots of people are very happy with their Burkes. O'Riordans are also great whistles with a loyal following. Also, it seems that Burkes are more readily available. The waiting list for Sindts didn't used to be so long, but it's growing.
A light dab of baby oil also works to ease the tuning slides.
I use vaseline on my Burke high D and works fine. I can say I haven't experienced problems with the slide since I got my Burke wide bore, two years ago.
No problems with the tuning either, and it was a great relief after some time of frustration playing cheaper whistles, including a Susato, which is fine in the first Octave, but sounds like killing a cat when playing the higher A. And I don't like the mouthpiece, it's very uncomfortable.
Haven't tried the Sindt's, unfortunately, but I'm extremely happy with my Burke.
If you're willing to go for a high-end whistle, I highly recommend the Silkstone alloy tuneables. They're truly a delight to play, with a marvelous tone. And Paul Hayward, who makes them, has worked out a way to improve the tuning of the upper vs lower octave by varying the diameter of the bore towards the bottom.
Tuneable whistles
Tuneable whistles
How many of you there have a generation whistle - how many of you out there have an in tune generation whistle? Forget generation - how many have got an in tune whistle - high or low?
I spent a lot of money on a Harper whistle last year then we came to record some demo tracks and I had to revert back to a generation becasue the generation whistle was more in tune than my nice one. I now have a very nice sounding whistle that I can't play except on my own.
Now when I buy a whistle I take my dad and his melodeon - that's what I play with so that's what I need to be in tune with.
I know whistles are only cheap instruments and for most people only a stepping stone to another instrument but surely they should still all be tuned correctly - if they're not then you won't be encouraged to play them with others and therefore never play music.
Moral of the story - chack that your expensive whistle is in tune before you part with your hard earned cash.
# Posted on August 30th 2002 by Nutty Nessie
Re: Tuneable whistles
If it's really out of tune, you should send it back!
# Posted on August 30th 2002 by glauber
Re: Tuneable whistles
I agree with Glauber...most makers will refund or replace a whistle if it's defective. If you're nice about asking, they'll likely be nice about resolving your problem.
At the risk of putting a plug for Sindt whistles into every thread, my Sindt D is in tune for every note, verified against an electronic tuner. Can't say enough good things about the Sindts, and I don't get any $$ kickback--just a true fan of a great whistle.
# Posted on August 30th 2002 by Will CPT
Re: Tuneable whistles
Same for my Burkes, and Michael will take any whistle back within 30 days of purchase, no questions asked (or within 1 year, some questions asked). Instrument makers live and die by their reputations; they can't afford to have a bad instrument being shown around, or a dissatisfied customer saying bad things about their instruments. I'd contact the seller and if that doesn't work, contact the maker. If that doesn't work, make a lot of noise about it.
But before you start, make sure that melodeon is in tune!
Or get a whistle that has a good tuning slide.
# Posted on August 30th 2002 by glauber
Re: Tuneable whistles
Another thing, it may just be that your new instrument is different enough from what you're used to (Generations), that it will take a few days for you to get used to it and able to play it to its best. Usually, an expen$ive whistle is easier to play than an cheap one, but i saw a picture of a Harper, and it looks somewhat different.
# Posted on August 30th 2002 by glauber
Re: Tuneable whistles
I think the question was directed about Generations, not higher end whistles (which are a whole 'nother beast). Generations can be made tune-able by running the fipple under hot tap water for about 2 minutes. After the glue has been softened by the heat gently twist off the fipple. Clean the remaining glue off with a bit a steel wool (or even better those green scrubbie pads used for polishing copper) Then the final step which I find nice is to dip the fipple end of the metal tube into melted candlewax. Clean up the excess wax & tune it up to an electric tuner. I've found they are somewhat well in tune. The whistle is deceptively easy, the ear needs to be used quite a bit as the second register, oftentimes notes in the upper octave need to be blown into tune. Generations & other straight bored whistles need to be 'blown in' more of this than a conically bored whistle. The Clarke Sweetone is a nice conical bore whistle that can be made tuneable & a beginer (or someone with no ear) will sound more in tune in the second octave.
I agree with you Will - Sindts are my favorite as well & John would defintely fix a dud (if one ever got out in the first place). Low end whistles are a different story, it's all up to the place you bought it from if they'll return it/ replace it. I guess Generation or Clarke might at best just send you another whistle if you sent a complaint, it's equally likely that they would send you a note that said "Ha-ha".
# Posted on August 30th 2002 by Mad Baloney
Re: Tuneable whistles
I've been playing the same Generation whistles for more years than I care to remember. I used Brad's method to make them tuneable. As with most wind instruments, I believe one is constantly "blowing" the instrument into tune. I find the timbre of my Generations to be mellow, a little on the quiet side, but basically in tune with themselves. Some of the newer, custom made whistles seem overbearing, and somewhat shrill to me. Perhaps I'm just sensitive to the sound given my long time relationship with the Generations I own.
Arbo
# Posted on August 30th 2002 by Imnotirish
Re: Tuneable whistles
On any cylindrical bore whistle, the upper register will always be flat to the lower octave. I always had a devil of a time trying to get it to sound in tune at all. You'll need to tune it so that the 1st octave A and the 2nd octave E each sound pretty close to in-tune. The upper register needs to be overblown to sort of "lip up" the upper octave.
If you like the way your Harper plays, I would recommend really working with it until you figure out how to work with its particular idiosyncracies. One of my whistle-playing friends in Phoenix uses Harpers on stage whenever he plays his traditional Welsh tunes. He's one the best whistle players out there and he swears by them. Sindts are also pretty nice, especially if you're keen on the Generations. I myself got so annoyed with the whole tuning fiasco that I bought a Burke Brass Pro Session. It is the finest whistle I have ever played, and his way of configuring the whistle bore brings both octaves into tune with each other. It's absolutely dynamite, but I must warn you that if you pick one up and start playing it, you can pretty much forget about doing anything else for the rest of the day. It's like whistle-players' heroin.
# Posted on August 30th 2002 by whistlemanhimself
Re: Tuneable whistles
Generations are fickle things. I have one that my uncle bought in the '70's, never played, and gave to me; and it's the best whistle I have. Since then, they've started to really become interested in the quantity of their whistles, rather than the quality, in order to sell more and keep them cheap. They're really having a problem with their tuning; high-end whistles are hand tuned, while Generations are just metal tubes with holes drilled in in certain sizes in certain places. Now, it's rumored that only 1 in 12 whistles are decent -- in tune etc. There's actually an article on this, saying something similar to what Brad said on Chiff & Fipple; http://www.chiffandfipple.com/tunable.html lots of good stuff on that site.
Anyways, that's just my thoughts about generations....
-mark
# Posted on August 30th 2002 by no longer exists
Re: Tuneable whistles
Oh yeah, I had another site in mind actually. http://www.chiffandfipple.com/tweak.html This is the one that was similar to Brad's.
# Posted on August 30th 2002 by no longer exists
Re: Tuning Generation Whistles
I have found that Generations and other similar
mass produced whistles tend to be made with the plastic mouthpiece pushed as far onto the metal tube as possible. If the whistle is slightly sharp, then Brad's tuning method described above works fine. If it is flat to start with, however, the only way to get it in tune is to file a small portion (say 1 - 2mm) off the top (NOT the bottom) of the tube. Of course, if the intonation was correct to start with, then it may end up slightly out once the whistle is up to pitch.
I have a tuneable D Susato, supposedly one of the better mass-produced whistles. Tuneable it may be, but in its sharpest position it only just hits concert pitch - and that's blowing just short of squeaking point. I hardly ever play it as, except in the very best hands, it sounds like a strangled cat, but one of these days I'll take a file to it. If you're going to strangle a cat, you might as well at least do it in tune.
# Posted on August 30th 2002 by granama
Re: Tuneable whistles
I use Sindts and Generations and love them all, although the Sindt is slightly sharp at the top end. To remedy this I stick some tape over the top part of the top hole.
It's interesting what Mark says about old Generations. I have couple of old ones (that is the type with the ridge down the middle of the mouthpiece) and find them very mellow compared with the newer type. Consequently I always scour the local boot fairs and second hand shops in a frantic search for this disappearing breed.
Being a whistle junkie I would really like to try a Burke but I fear like Copelands they are quite rare in the UK. Still one day....
# Posted on August 31st 2002 by Twiz
Re: Tuneable whistles
Harper's are notoriously out of tune. Hey, they're made by a gunsmith. I happen to be one of those lucky people who have an in tune Generation. Mind you, I don't play it. I play Abell whistles. They are a superior instrument to anything I have ever played. Simply beautiful blackwood and sterling silver with a robust tone and the perfect amount of chiff.
http://www.abellflute.com
# Posted on August 31st 2002 by SPeak
Re: Tuneable whistles
I've heard many people say Abell's have no chiff & sound like recorders.
# Posted on August 31st 2002 by Mad Baloney
Re: Tuneable whistles
Thanks for the tips -but wht's a Sindt - I've never heard of them - where can I get more info
# Posted on August 31st 2002 by Nutty Nessie
Re: Tuneable whistles
John Sindt is an expert machinist and whistle player (and maker) in Nyack New York. Mary Bergin now uses his whistles, among many other fine players. They're beautifully made of brass with a brass and delrin fipple--faithful to the simple design of the best traditional whistles, but with an incredible eye for precision. They're also very affordable--$85 US for a standard D, $90 for most of the low whistles. Go to the Chiff and Fipple whistle site and you'll find a review of Sindt whistles as well as contact info (I'll also send you their email).
I haven't noticed any tendency to run sharp in my Sindt D, but it also doesn't require as much air in the second octave as some whistles, so be careful not to overblow it.
# Posted on August 31st 2002 by Will CPT
Burkes
Burkes look somewhat like the Sindts and also have the delrin fipple, but they have a bulge in the tuning slide area. They're cilyndrical, and have "perturbations" (pieces of plastic) set inside the bore to bring the octaves in tune (it works, somehow, they're very nicely in tune). AFAIK, you get them directly from the maker (predictably, http://www.burkewhistles.com). They're more expensive than the Sindts. Their tuning slides are very nice, have rubber o-rings in them, but they can seize (Michael Burke recommends moving the slide a little every time you play).
# Posted on September 1st 2002 by glauber
Re: Tuneable whistles
Burkes can also be purchased from Song of the Sea in Bar Harbor Maine, which has a website: www.songsea.com Mike Burke is a phenomenal whistlesmith, but only a fair entrepreneur; Song of the Sea doesn't make instruments, but they are topnotch about selling them. It is a match made in heaven.
Not having a Sindt, I can't comment for myself, but the word on the street is that you can't do a traditional cross-fingered Cnat on them, you have to half-hole it.
T
# Posted on September 1st 2002 by Tyghress
Re: Tuneable whistles
For c nat on my Sindt D I usually use the oxxooo fingering and it works fine, in tune with fixed pitch instruments, though I'm careful not to overblow it or it *will* sound sharp. For slow airs or where I want to increase the volume on the c nat for emphasis, I either half hole or play it oxxxox and then it's spot on no matter how hard I blow.
I don't mean to get into a spitting match over Sindts versus Burkes or any other good whistle. I think the Burkes are great instruments. But I've compared a friend's Sindt and Burke Bb whistles, and the Sindt Bb whistle is the best whistle I've ever heard or played. To my ear the Sindt had a cleaner (but still a whistle) tone, equal intonation, and markedly superior responsiveness. Every note was even and clear across the whole range and remarkably easy to blow. The Sindt is also about a third less costly than the Burke.
I've heard rumors of the Burke's problems with the tuning slide. Sindt solves this by having ridiculously close tolerances on his machining. The tuning slide is very snug but easily moved for tuning or cleaning. Even the machined sandwich of brass and delrin for the fipple is held togther by nothing more than friction (and a pin to ensure that nothing jars loose if the whistle is dropped)--no glue or brazes, just a supremely tight fit.
I think the bottom line with either of these makers is that if you're not completely happy with your whistle, they'll make it right. With John Sindt, you'll get the whistle before you're asked to pay for it. If you like it, you send him your money. If not, you ship it back and ask for tweaking or say thanks but no thanks. There's no risk, except the $5 shipping fee.
# Posted on September 1st 2002 by Will CPT
Re: Tuneable whistles
Anyone who says Abell's sound like recorders needs to have their head examined. They are amazing whistles.
# Posted on September 1st 2002 by SPeak
Re: Tuneable whistles
I wouldn't say these people need their heads examined - two of them have placed highly in all-Ireland competitions, one of whom won flat out. However I know another all-Ireland placer that stands by Abell's whistle steadfast. It really is a matter of personal taste.
# Posted on September 1st 2002 by Mad Baloney
Sindt x Burke
Well, since i'm the one bringing up Burke, i think based on what i heard i'd recommend you go with the Sindt (same quality, cheaper). So, no spitting war here.
I bought the Burkes because i happened to meet Michael B. and he convinced me to get them. It's not every day that i have a chance to try out a tablefull of whistles and then choose the ones that hate me the least.
Slides, AFAIK, always have ridiculously close tolerances if they're the traditional style of metal on metal. Burke whistles have rubber o-rings, so there's more air between the slide and the main part of the whistle. The rings feel very nice, but they do get stuck. I'm trying cork grease on my high D, and the grease that came with the M&E flute on my low G. So far, this is working. Vaseline would probably do the trick too. I think the best way to keep them from seizing is keeping them rings lubricated.
# Posted on September 1st 2002 by glauber
Re: Tuneable whistles
But it *is* a matter of personal taste. Lots of people are very happy with their Burkes. O'Riordans are also great whistles with a loyal following. Also, it seems that Burkes are more readily available. The waiting list for Sindts didn't used to be so long, but it's growing.
A light dab of baby oil also works to ease the tuning slides.
# Posted on September 1st 2002 by Will CPT
Re: Tuneable whistles
I use vaseline on my Burke high D and works fine. I can say I haven't experienced problems with the slide since I got my Burke wide bore, two years ago.
No problems with the tuning either, and it was a great relief after some time of frustration playing cheaper whistles, including a Susato, which is fine in the first Octave, but sounds like killing a cat when playing the higher A. And I don't like the mouthpiece, it's very uncomfortable.
Haven't tried the Sindt's, unfortunately, but I'm extremely happy with my Burke.
# Posted on September 3rd 2002 by Toni Ribas
Re: Tuneable whistles
If you're willing to go for a high-end whistle, I highly recommend the Silkstone alloy tuneables. They're truly a delight to play, with a marvelous tone. And Paul Hayward, who makes them, has worked out a way to improve the tuning of the upper vs lower octave by varying the diameter of the bore towards the bottom.
# Posted on September 3rd 2002 by MarkCC